Two new Cobb portrait red Hindus found

[atx840]

"For serious T206 collectors, especially those who chase the back variations, the find will be especially good news. It includes 42 extremely rare Red Hindu back examples, nearly doubling the known population. Thirteen of those cards are Hall of Famers including two Ty Cobb Red Portrait cards the company calls “astonishing”."

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/HinduBackT206.jpg

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/another-big-find-rare-t206s-two-joe-jackson-rookies-snared-scp-auctions/

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43758&stc=1&d=1312838109

Save your breath....T206Resource's Red HINDU checklist has that phony red HINDU / red Cobb listed as confirmed.

Many of us dinosaurs know that this card was professionally altered by taking an authentic red HINDU back and RE-FRONTING it with a red Cobb image.

In my opinion....this red Cobb listing in their "infallible" checklists blows any integrity they had.
TED Z

For those who are not convinced the sole graded example is authentic and that this combo is not possible, are these three enough to put this topic to rest?

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks for posting this Chris.

I can remember Tim C.'s research showed it could be a possible combination, with only one example known, but it turned into a "re-fronted" card? Something like that-anyhow, now we have two more examples. Awesome !!!! So it is a legit combination.

Sincerely, Clayton

[sreader3]

Interesting that 11 of the 13 newly discovered RH HOFers are from the 460-only and superprint groups (the two WaJos being the exceptions). Also interesting that Matty Dark with RH remains elusive.

[Rob D.]

Some fine reading here regarding the red Hindu/Cobb combo:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=140161&highlight=red+hindu+cobb

[mullinsm]

...and I feel lucky if I find a quarter in the parking lot. Sheesh!

[tedzan]

"For serious T206 collectors, especially those who chase the back variations, the find will be especially good news. It includes 42 extremely rare Red Hindu back examples, nearly doubling the known population. Thirteen of those cards are Hall of Famers including two Ty Cobb Red Portrait cards the company calls “astonishing”."

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/HinduBackT206.jpg

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/another-big-find-rare-t206s-two-joe-jackson-rookies-snared-scp-auctions/

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43758&stc=1&d=1312838109



For those who are not convinced the sole graded example is authentic and that this combo is not possible, are these three enough to put this topic to rest?


Chris

1st....Check-out my 2007 and 2010 "pair printing" theory's regarding the BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU cards. I originally have noted that the red Cobb is a
possible F/B combo with these two backs.

2007......link
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=86796&highlight=broad+leaf+460+red+hindu

2010......link
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=120453&highlight=broad+leaf+460+red+hindu&page=4

However, I have always been skeptical of the authenticity of the PSA 4 graded red Cobb (shown above). And, so have a number of other serious T206 collectors.
So, regardless of the two red Cobb/red HINDU cards shown in this new find....I remain skeptical of this specific PSA 4 graded Cobb.


This is an amazing find and I would like to see a list of all the 42 cards in it ?

Please post this list if you have it ?

Thanks,

TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Ted-

With all due respect, you slammed the integrety of T206Resource over this card (see your quote in the OP please), yet have never given any "proof" of why you are "skeptical" about this one certain card. Who's hands it's floated through, is all you've said. But no proof whatsoever- and T206Resource had it right all along.

Maybe an apology is due (not to me, but to the good folks at T206Resource.com
)?

Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

I am not the sole skeptic on Net54 regarding the PSA 4 graded red Cobb/red HINDU card that is pictured in T206resource.

There are several of us serious, long-time T206 collectors who have expressed our doubts about this card's authenticity.
I personally suspect that it is a Re-Fronted fake.

Clayton....are you also asking them to "apologize" ?

Speaking about "apologies".....when will certain people on that thread apologize to me for having taken many bits of infor-
mation from my T206 research that I have posted on Net54 these past 7 years; and, included it in their data without the
common decency and courtesy of an acknowledgement ?


TED Z

[atx840]

Ted, the list will be available in a few weeks. However the cards are all graded PSA, some 1/1 and if someone has access to PSA/registry we could likely determine the cards sooner.

[teetwoohsix]

Ted-

Being skeptical about a card is a little different than attacking someone's integrity (please again, see your quote in the OP). That's what I was refering to.

Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

Ted, the list will be available in a few weeks. However the cards are all graded PSA, some 1/1 and if someone has access to PSA/registry we could likely determine the cards sooner.

Hey Chris

Here are today's (7/25) PSA pop report numbers for the red HINDU cards......


POP # ........ Subjects (350/460 series)
------

1 ............ Bender, Cobb (red), Donlin, Doolan, Evers, Griffith, Joss, Kleinow, Magee, O'Leary, Seymour, Street, Sweeney

2 ............ M. Brown, Chance, Chase (blue), Davis, Downey

3 ............ Baker, Johnson, Snodgrass, Stahl

0 ............ Chase (dark cap), Dougherty, Doyle, Elberfeld, Konetchy, Mathewson, McIntyre, Murphy, Reulbach, Rucker, Willis, CYoung


POP # ........ Subjects (460-only series)
------

9 ............ Crandall

4 ............ Devore

5 ............ Duffy

4 ............ Ford

4 ............ Gandil

5 ............ Geyer

7 ............ Hummel

6 ............ McGraw

3 ............ Pfeffer

2 ............ Sheckard

5 ............ Tannehill

6 ............ Wheat


TED Z

[Pup6913]

Ted-

Being skeptical about a card is a little different than attacking someone's integrity (please again, see your quote in the OP). That's what I was refering to.

Sincerely, Clayton


I must have missed it somewhere. Could you post a link because most of what I read was a bunch of guys acknowledging the first card is a fraud and attacking Ted for the same thing. I think Ted has done a ton of research on the cards and is very knowledgeable so for someone to question his opinion is fine but to say he don't know anything when some of the info he provided was used as someone else's credit is kinda wrong. This I why I don't post anymore info on my T205 research. I have gathered a lot and have had several guys help with info. All of which would be acknowledged if posted but someone would take this info and use it as their own. Not something I am going to do with my work or anyone else's. To each their own though.

[warrior1978]

Really excited about this Cobb find.

Prior to these additional two cards, I was very skeptical about the PSA 4 Red Hindu Cobb but this makes me more opened minded about it.

[teetwoohsix]

I must have missed it somewhere. Could you post a link because most of what I read was a bunch of guys acknowledging the first card is a fraud and attacking Ted for the same thing. I think Ted has done a ton of research on the cards and is very knowledgeable so for someone to question his opinion is fine but to say he don't know anything when some of the info he provided was used as someone else's credit is kinda wrong. This I why I don't post anymore info on my T205 research. I have gathered a lot and have had several guys help with info. All of which would be acknowledged if posted but someone would take this info and use it as their own. Not something I am going to do with my work or anyone else's. To each their own though.

Hi Andrew-

No need for a link, just look at the TedZ quote in the first post of this thread.

Maybe my posts were misconstrued as an attack on Ted, which I didn't intend it to be.

TedZ- if you took my posts as an attack on you, then I appologize, as that was not my intention.

I stand by what I wrote in my posts, and I don't always word things right, you have to be skeptical about cards nowadays, there are people out there who don't care and will try to rip you off. Being skeptical of a card isn't the issue as much as slamming people's integrity, and using the card as the example. I guess I figure if you are going to do both of those things in correspondence with each other, I would think you had undeniable proof that the card was a fraud. I don't know who the card owner is, but I would be a little upset-he or she probably spent a good amount of $$ on a card like that(someone probably knows what it sold for-I don't).

I think shareing(sp?) information about cards is a tremendous help to the collecting community, especially for new people just getting into it. But, ultimately that's your choice- if you don't want to do it, that's fine. I'm sure your information on cards is important, as I know you know this set T205 very well (from your posts).

I do also know that TedZ has a wealth of knowledge about T206's and he's done a lot of research and I've learned from his research and used to write all kinds of notes for myself-I've thanked him many times in my earlier posts on the board. I still have his T Brand thread as a subscribed thread.

As far as information of Ted's about people using his research/info, I have no idea what he is referring to.

What I saw was a group of very knowledgeable and generous collectors got together, compiled data and information and all of their years of collecting research (and wisdom) and decided to do something good for the T206 collectors and make a site that is easy to navigate and is full of great stuff. Then, I saw people getting mad that other people weren't included. It was ridiculous that the announcement of this great new site was all of a sudden under attack, when all they were trying to do was something good for ALL T206 collectors.

My take was this- TedZ is not the only one who has researched this card and it's origins over the past decade or two and was not the first. In fact, just look at some of the names as contributors on T206Resource- just as many heavy hitters when it comes to T206 research and knowledge. I can see how they wouldn't even need to use TedZ's info, especially with the COMBINED knowledge of ALL of the contributors.

Whew, I'm beat.


There may be reasons why Ted wasn't included in this project (and to make it clear, I was not a part of this project) and I don't know any more than you probably do, other than what I've read about some of Ted's info that he apparently knew was bogus.


I hope I cleared this up- thanks for the response.

Sincerely, Clayton

[T206Collector]

This I why I don't post anymore info on my T205 research. I have gathered a lot and have had several guys help with info. All of which would be acknowledged if posted but someone would take this info and use it as their own. Not something I am going to do with my work or anyone else's. To each their own though.

The value of research is in its sharing of knowledge. To keep knowledge to myself for fear of plagiarism is not something I am going to do with my work. Who is making any money off of someone else's T205 or T206 research?

[atx840]

Card went for 38k @ REA.

From a factual standpoint the Cobb/RH is a possible print combination based on many peoples research, and a known graded example exists. Now there are three.

Im not sure how this one suspected card would in any way ruin someones research or integrity, hopefully these new examples can be used in further discussion when referencing this sweet combination.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2009/169.html

[Runscott]

I must have missed it somewhere. Could you post a link because most of what I read was a bunch of guys acknowledging the first card is a fraud and attacking Ted for the same thing. I think Ted has done a ton of research on the cards and is very knowledgeable so for someone to question his opinion is fine but to say he don't know anything when some of the info he provided was used as someone else's credit is kinda wrong. This I why I don't post anymore info on my T205 research. I have gathered a lot and have had several guys help with info. All of which would be acknowledged if posted but someone would take this info and use it as their own. Not something I am going to do with my work or anyone else's. To each their own though.

Well, stated Andrew. As far as sharing research, I kind of disagree with you - I don't mind sharing anything I have, and I don't mind others using it. I just think that out of common courtesy and respect, you acknowledge where you got the information or your ideas. If you choose not to, there's little chance in a hobby like this, that you'll get penalized legally, but it certainly hurts your reputation.

Ted's been around this hobby a long time. There are new guys joining all the time, many who only know the hobby based on how it was at the point in time when they joined. They aren't forgetting guys like Ted - they simply never knew them. It's easy to dismiss Ted's thoughts about research and credit, when you don't have any skin in the game, and that's the case with most T206 collectors. Ted and many of the rest of us, are walking around the new T206 boardroom in our overalls, when there are several in nice suits with polished resumes.

[willworkforT206]

Chris/Ted,

I just happen to have an older copy of the PSA Hindu Population report (dated 2/1/12) in my desk drawer. I did a quick comparison of the Red Hindu populations as of 2/1 vs. today and found a total increase of 48, which appears to be the 42 from the find plus 6 additional submissions.

The 48 new additions to the PSA Population Report since February 1^st are:

360/460 Series (+14 Total)
+1 Brown (Chicago)
+2 Davis (Davis on Front)
+1 Donlin (With Bat)
+2 Downey (Batting)
+2 Johnson (Hands At Chest)
+1 Joss (Pitching)
+1 Murphy (Batting)
+1 Seymor (Throwing)
+1 Snodgrass (Catching)
+1 Street (Catching)
+1 Sweeney (Fielding)

“Super Prints” (+5 Total)
+2 Chance (Yellow)
+1 Chase (Blue)
+2 Cobb (Red)

460 Series (+29 Total)
+4 Crandall (With Cap)
+2 Devore
+1 Duffy
+3 Ford
+2 Gandil
+4 Geyer
+3 Hummel
+3 McGraw (Glove Hip)
+2 Pfeffer
+1 Tannehill
+4 Wheat

I believe Murphy (Batting) is a previously unconfirmed subject.

Obvioulsy, I cannot determine which 6 cards above are not part of the find (48 – 42 = 6). However, for what it's worth, we do know that the find includes 13 HOFers. Since there are 16 HOFers listed above, that means 3 HOFers above were submitted outside the find. Knowing that, then we can conclude that the other 3 cards submitted outside the find were non-HOFers.

The PSA grades vary greatly, with most falling in the range of 2 and 4. The Cobbs are both low grade (A and 1). Some of the more interesting additions (HOFers and higher grades) are as follows:

PSA Authentic – Cobb (Red)
PSA 1 - Brown (Chicago), Chance (Yellow), Cobb (Red)
PSA 1.5 - Wheat
PSA 2 – Gandil, Wheat
PSA 3 – Joss (Pitching), Chance (Yellow)
PSA 3Q – McGraw (Glove Hip)
PSA 3.5 – McGraw (Glove Hip), Pfeffer
PSA 4 – both Johnson (Hands At Chest), Duffy, Gandil, McGraw (Glove Hip), Wheat, Chase, two Crandall (With Cap), Tannehill
PSA 4.5 – Wheat, Pfeffer
PSA 6Q - Davis (Davis on Front)

Other than the PSA 6Q Davis (Davis on Front), none of the cards graded above a 4.5.

Hope this helps.

Steve

[atx840]

Great info, someone call Wonka on the Murphy!!

Most of the 6 others are from the recent 13 "Texas find". I am certain on the following except for one of the Wheat's, not sure if both were submitted.

PSA 1 - Brown (Chicago)
PSA 1.5 - Wheat
PSA 3 – Joss (Pitching)
PSA 4 – Wheat, Crandall (With Cap)

[Pup6913]

I am not sure about this but correct me if I am wrong. If I started a web site like T206 resource I could sell banner space on the site right? There in turn make a profit from the site irregardless of the info used. The better and more accurate the info is the more traffic flow it would receive, more traffic turns into a better advertising site, and more advertisers want to buy a spot generating a cash flow. It could be $10 or $10k for all I know. Another scenario is the info would be used and printed into a book in turn being sold for a profit. This is just my thoughts as to why more info is not just publicly shared.

BTW congrats Kyle on the grades received on your Texas find. I hope they do well in auction or where ever they land.

[Runscott]

I am not sure about this but correct me if I am wrong. If I started a web site like T206 resource I could sell banner space on the site right? There in turn make a profit from the site irregardless of the info used. The better and more accurate the info is the more traffic flow it would receive, more traffic turns into a better advertising site, and more advertisers want to buy a spot generating a cash flow. It could be $10 or $10k for all I know. Another scenario is the info would be used and printed into a book in turn being sold for a profit. This is just my thoughts as to why more info is not just publicly shared.

Yeah, but....

http://sp.theyoungriderstv.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/WizOfOz.jpg

[philliesphan]

Great info., Steve -- thank you!

No Phillies in this list of new Red Hindu's.

:-(