Counterfeit Mantle card being auctioned as PSA 5

[betafolio2]

Hello, All!

I just spotted what looks to be a counterfeit '52 Topps Mantle rookie being auctioned on eBay. The item number is 221076771052. The card is shown in a PSA 5 holder, but I seriously doubt that it's real because it has the CLEAN, CRISP Yankees logo (with the white line inside the bat). I remember reading something somewhere that said any of the Mantle rookie cards with the crisp logo are outright FAKES, but now I can't find that same information. The card is already bid up to $14,000, and I fear that a newbie might get taken to the cleaners! I was going to report the item to eBay, but of course, the site's "report item" choices don't include COUNTERFEIT as one of the reasons. So I'm turning to all of you. First, is the card shown in this listing fake, and is there a quick and direct way to stop the auction before someone gets robbed?

Thanks for any help you can provide!

[Deertick]

Ouch, just wrote how it looked authentic to me and then saw the "white bat".

Reported for fake card, fake slab

[GasHouseGang]

I just reported it to ebay as a counterfeit also. It's currently at $14K with 22 bids and three more days of bidding. People really should do their homework before spending that kind of money. Hopefully it will be removed before someone spends way too much money on a fake.

[Leon]

linky..


http://www.ebay.com/itm/221076771052?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2F i.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D221076771052%26_rdc% 3D1



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[CW]

Hello, All!

I just spotted what looks to be a counterfeit '52 Topps Mantle rookie being auctioned on eBay. The item number is 221076771052. The card is shown in a PSA 5 holder, but I seriously doubt that it's real because it has the CLEAN, CRISP Yankees logo (with the white line inside the bat). I remember reading something somewhere that said any of the Mantle rookie cards with the crisp logo are outright FAKES, but now I can't find that same information. The card is already bid up to $14,000, and I fear that a newbie might get taken to the cleaners! I was going to report the item to eBay, but of course, the site's "report item" choices don't include COUNTERFEIT as one of the reasons. So I'm turning to all of you. First, is the card shown in this listing fake, and is there a quick and direct way to stop the auction before someone gets robbed?

Thanks for any help you can provide!

First of all, thanks for bringing attention to this. Hopefully if this gets flagged enough, eBay will end up pulling it.

Secondly, eBay does indeed have a "report as counterfeit" option. In the dropdowns, first select "copyright and trademark", then "counterfeit item or authenticity disclaimer", then "counterfeit, fake, or replica items". That should do it.

[Wymers Auction]

Payment must be posted within 12 hours of sale or I will void the sale. That is kind of crazy for this type of card. I have been looking for the white in the logo bat fake info, but I cannot find it. I have read that also.

[Wymers Auction]

There should also be a black pixel missing in the bottom left border. I do not think that pixel is missing.

[GasHouseGang]

I was looking on the internet to see if I could find the "real" 1952 Topps Mantle with that cert #. I didn't find it, but I came across this article. The cards pictured in this scam would be very hard to spot. Scary stuff!

Link:

http://bbcemporium.com/california-craigs-list-psa-scam/

[GasHouseGang]

Look what I found! The real 1952 Topps Mantle, PSA Cert #31517905. It was sold by Leland's on 4/28/2006. It realized $18161. Looks a bit different in the ebay listing. It's not even the same version of 1952 Mantle. Can someone clue ebay into this. They don't want to listen when we've told them it's a fake.

[betafolio2]

First of all, thanks for bringing attention to this. Hopefully if this gets flagged enough, eBay will end up pulling it.

Secondly, eBay does indeed have a "report as counterfeit" option. In the dropdowns, first select "copyright and trademark", then "counterfeit item or authenticity disclaimer", then "counterfeit, fake, or replica items". That should do it.

Thanks for validating my concerns. I was initially hesitant to post something about this card, thinking, "Surely, many other people will raise a red flag here." But then I realized that some innocent person's hard-earned dollars were at stake, and if I didn't say something, maybe it would slip under the radar. I wouldn't want someone to get hurt, especially for such an obvious fake! It really makes me question eBay's ability to protect its buyers and sellers.

And thanks also for helping me to find the "report a counterfeit item" link. I had looked for it under the "report item" selections, but couldn't find it. I have since reported this item to eBay as fake -- but it's still an active listing as of 2:25 a.m. EDT Thursday. I considered contacting the seller to say, "Do you know this card is fake?", but I really don't want to open that can of worms. If this guy isn't the perpetrator of this forgery, how could he NOT know that this card is a fake? He's got tons of feedback as an eBay seller, so it seems to me he should know what he's listing.

[betafolio2]

Look what I found! The real 1952 Topps Mantle, PSA Cert #31517905. It was sold by Leland's on 4/28/2006. It realized $18161. Looks a bit different in the ebay listing. It's not even the same version of 1952 Mantle. Can someone clue ebay into this. They don't want to listen when we've told them it's a fake.

AWESOME detective work! You are indeed an Internet searcher extraordinaire! Now if only eBay would listen to all of us and remove the bogus card from the auction!

[Wymers Auction]

I reported this card also, but being in a PSA slab Ebay seems to be careful at best. I contacted the seller and gave him a link here and informed him that there is no possible way that card is genuine.

[Wymers Auction]

I called PSA and they are looking into it. I hope this item can be pulled in time.

[RUSH2112]

The shape of the numbers "5" and "9" on the slab of the card being sold are also much different from the authentic PSA 5 example.

[RUSH2112]

This is the response I got when I clicked "other" in the contact options of the sellers "My World" page.

We're sorry we couldn't find an answer for you. Unfortunately, this seller is not able to respond to your question. We suggest reviewing the item again to see if your answer is in the seller's listing.

[Mr. Zipper]

The shape of the numbers "5" and "9" on the slab of the card being sold are also much different from the authentic PSA 5 example.

And look at the difference in spacing between the EX and 5.

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69878&stc=1&d=1343318425http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69879&stc=1&d=1343318444

[Volod]

Card is still there on eBay. I also reported it as counterfeit around 2pm today. I wonder how many such reports eBay will ignore before it sells. Anyone care for a count?

[GasHouseGang]

It doesn't seem that ebay is going to take our word for it. Hopefully someone in charge will look at this thread and see the two obviously different cards with the same serial number and decide the auction should be shut down. The seller has been told about this thread too. I wonder if he's even looked at it?
By the way, another easy way to tell the two apart is the bar codes. They are obviously different.

[RobertGT]

It appears the only way to protect those bidders will be for someone on this board to win that card.

Then slam the seller with the following feedback:

SCAMMER! SELLING FAKE MANTLE IN FAKE HOLDER DESPITE PROOF IT IS FAKE

[RUSH2112]

It appears the only way to protect those bidders will be for someone on this board to win that card.

Then slam the seller with the following feedback:

SCAMMER! SELLING FAKE MANTLE IN FAKE HOLDER DESPITE PROOF IT IS FAKE

That may seem like a good idea, the only problem is, the seller could take you to court for breach of contract and ebay could suspend your account for non payment.

Now, if the buyer found out the card is fake after buying and found out that ebay and the seller both were notified that it had problems, the buyer would have a very strong case in court against both parties.

[SetBuilder]

That may seem like a good idea, the only problem is, the seller could take you to court for breach of contract and ebay could suspend your account for non payment.

Now, if the buyer found out the card is fake after buying and found out that ebay and the seller both were notified that it had problems, the buyer would have a very strong case in court against both parties.


If he does, you can countersue for fraud.

[Brianruns10]

If this guy isn't the perpetrator of the scam, I feel he's at least aware the card is bogus. Maybe he got burned, and he's trying to recoup his loss. Because he knows enough to put the card against a white background so you can't otherwise spot what I'm guessing would be some pretty obvious frosting on one edge.

Another big red flag is this joker hasn't dealt in vintage cards...only the new junk. He has no demonstrated expertise with these things. He probably just had someone approach him with a Mantle card, and figured, "Well it's on a PSA holder, and THERE'S NO WAY those can be fake, right?"

[GasHouseGang]

The auction has been shut down. I guess someone finally believed us.

[betafolio2]

Thanks, everyone, for listening to my concerns and helping me to put a stop to this particular auction. I guess we could say the "Neighborhood Watch" took a "bite out of crime" this time!

[SetBuilder]

You can bet he's going to sell that card to someone...somewhere.

[RobertGT]

You can bet he's going to sell that card to someone...somewhere.

Coming soon to a Craigslist near you. Beware.

That's probably where he got it, thinking he could flip it for a cool $10K on eBay. Oops.

[Volod]

It's disturbing that there are apparently so many with thousands to spend who have so little concern for authentication of an expensive item that is commonly counterfeited. Are well-heeled neophyte collectors - or dealers - suffering from the delusion that anything in a graded slab must be genuine? If so, it reveals one of the biggest problems with the grading industry. Or, is it just a case of PT Barnum grinning at us from his grave?:D

[GasHouseGang]

Do you think there is a solution? I'm sure a slab can be made that is nearly impossible to tamper with, but what about something that would be on the slab that would be nearly impossible to counterfeit? A hologram maybe, or something else? The newer slabs have the hologram now. Perhaps a thread could be molded inside the plastic of the slab like the U.S. government is doing for the new currency. The special thread imbedded in the plastic could run down the side of the slab in the clear area and say PSA/SGC/Beckett or whatever over and over. Would that make it harder to fake? We need something, because these fakes are getting tougher to spot all the time.

[thetruthisoutthere]

The seller ended his listing.

69958

[Brianruns10]

It's disturbing that there are apparently so many with thousands to spend who have so little concern for authentication of an expensive item that is commonly counterfeited. Are well-heeled neophyte collectors - or dealers - suffering from the delusion that anything in a graded slab must be genuine? If so, it reveals one of the biggest problems with the grading industry. Or, is it just a case of PT Barnum grinning at us from his grave?:D

Precisely! I've confronted dealers on ebay in the past about selling fake Mantles, and they all respond the same way, that it's been authenticated and slabbed. It must be real. It doesn't enter into their minds that you can crack a slab and steal a real ID number. It's a classic case of buying the plastic not the card. I mean, these fakes aren't that good. The team logo is totally wrong, and far too good...it resembles a '54 Topps logo really. I've never owned or even seen a real '52 Topps mantle, yet I can spot these fakes in two seconds, because I've bothered to study the real ones online.

[mantlefan2010]

this same guy has the Mantle on the scf boards selling

http://www.sportscardforum.com/threads/1716040-1952-topps-Mickey-Mantle-PSA-5-5-FS-Great-Card!

[t206fix]

It bugs me when people put the dollar sign after the number: 26,000$.

I mean, there are dollar signs every where! You would think that they would realize/recognize that it looks like this: $26,000!

[GasHouseGang]

this same guy has the Mantle on the scf boards selling

http://www.sportscardforum.com/threads/1716040-1952-topps-Mickey-Mantle-PSA-5-5-FS-Great-Card!

I don't know if he changed the pictures since you saw it and posted this link, but that's a different card than we were talking about on this thread. It is a different grade and a different certification number. It could be real.

[Volod]

Do you think there is a solution? I'm sure a slab can be made that is nearly impossible to tamper with, but what about something that would be on the slab that would be nearly impossible to counterfeit? A hologram maybe, or something else?....

I wonder what the cost/benefit analysis of PSA improving the security versus elimination of fraudulent sales profits would show, Dave?

[vintagetoppsguy]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WARNING-1952-TOPPS-MICKEY-MANTLE-RC-311-PSA-EX-5-COUNTERFEIT-SCAM-READ-NOW-/320954184774?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item4aba5c3446

[Volod]

A sad cautionary tale there - too much emptor, not enough caveat.

[GasHouseGang]

The guy is probably honest and got taken like he said. However, the PSA label was actually just as fake as the card. I doubt it was cracked and a fake inserted into the case. I think the whole thing was a fake from the beginning. I hope they catch the guy that pulled this scam.

[MrPosadas]

Deleted

[Deertick]

The guy is probably honest and got taken like he said. However, the PSA label was actually just as fake as the card. I doubt it was cracked and a fake inserted into the case. I think the whole thing was a fake from the beginning. I hope they catch the guy that pulled this scam.

If it is a real PSA slab, it would have had to have been cracked. Can't tell from the scan. I'm not sure if the scam is designed to dupe someone for longer than it takes to cash the check, or get the trade. That being said, he had the card in hand, and the time to authenticate was BEFORE sending his end of the trade.

[t206fix]

How about this card listed on ebay??? Doesn't the psa lettering on the top look odd? Is it just me, or does the lettering look different than the ones I have?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-BASEBALL-261-WILLIE-MAYS-PSA-5-MUST-HAVE-CARD-FOR-COLLECTORS-NICE-/120961360060?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c29dbe0bc#ht_1464wt_1111

[Volod]

How about this card listed on ebay??? Doesn't the psa lettering on the top look odd? Is it just me, or does the lettering look different than the ones I have?

Don't know much about grading company practices, myself, but does PSA state anywhere that they always use the same type fonts on the flips, if only to make fakes more obvious? Seems to me that I've seen different typefaces on them over time just casually observing.

[ofrogers]

That Mantle is easy to spot, take a look at this 5..

[ofrogers]

Flips vary from card to card a bit..Then take in the font change when .5 grading came available..
I've also seen minor cards where the barcode touches the border..I wouldn't buy a big PSA graded card on Ebay now..No way..
PSA is covered up they've been compromised..I predict they're value will drop..
I'm going back to Beckett, no tamper there..

[KCRfan1]

Flips vary from card to card a bit..Then take in the font change when .5 grading came available..
I've also seen minor cards where the barcode touches the border..I wouldn't buy a big PSA graded card on Ebay now..No way..
PSA is covered up they've been compromised..I predict they're value will drop..
I'm going back to Beckett, no tamper there..

Well, Beckett is no better then. There is a 1973 Topps Thurman Munson slabbed by Beckett as a 4 that is trimmed. All you have to do is enlarge the image and measure. I do not care who the grading company is, buy the card and not the holder. I am confused as to what " value will drop "? Are you takling about PSA or '52 Mantles? I do not see either " dropping in value " in the forseeable future. This is the second post you have made regarding PSA involved in a cover up. I typically buy ungraded, so I do not have horse in this show. I do suggest that before you make random accusations, that you also provide some proof / evidence of your claim. It is not that hard to obtain a slab, and counterfit a slip. You are accusing PSA of accepting fake cards, grading, and slabbing them. I'll go back to, where is your proof. It is more reasonable to believe that someone obtained slabs, printed slips, and inserted fake Mantles. Buy the card, not the holder....

[ALR-bishop]

....to the board Snake. We heard you were dead :)

OT-- Escape from NY was largely film on streets just outside my office in St Louis ;)

[ofrogers]

....to the board Snake. We heard you were dead :)

OT-- Escape from NY was largely film on streets just outside my office in St Louis ;)

"The next person that says that, I'm gonna kill them.."

Thanks man and I didn't know St Louis had any movies except Judy Garland's..

[ofrogers]

Well, Beckett is no better then. There is a 1973 Topps Thurman Munson slabbed by Beckett as a 4 that is trimmed. All you have to do is enlarge the image and measure. I do not care who the grading company is, buy the card and not the holder. I am confused as to what " value will drop "? Are you takling about PSA or '52 Mantles? I do not see either " dropping in value " in the forseeable future. This is the second post you have made regarding PSA involved in a cover up. I typically buy ungraded, so I do not have horse in this show. I do suggest that before you make random accusations, that you also provide some proof / evidence of your claim. It is not that hard to obtain a slab, and counterfit a slip. You are accusing PSA of accepting fake cards, grading, and slabbing them. I'll go back to, where is your proof. It is more reasonable to believe that someone obtained slabs, printed slips, and inserted fake Mantles. Buy the card, not the holder.... I agree buy the card not the grade..PSA has had 7 font changes on the flips..Maybe it is an inside jog, don't know..And no, 52 Mantles will only go up..I really don't know about PSA cards, but I don't trust anymore..I prefer raw myself and may go back to it..The resale on raw is the problem. Depends on how expensive your collection is and is it for fun or investment. Most people it's both..I may rip all my 52 topps out of holders and go raw, Mantle included..My son can make the decision later..

[ofrogers]

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=846031

You're not going to tell me Joe Orlando or anybody can be positive..The only way i can tell is feel the paperstock..

[MattyC]

Rolexes and Vuitton bags consistently get knocked off. Not buying them from a fold-out table on Canal Street for a steal-price is a great first line of defense for us collectors ;)

"Lying" and a "coverup" do sound very cloak-and-dagger though; reminds of that movie with Mel Gibson and Julia Roberts.

[ofrogers]

Rolexes and Vuitton bags consistently get knocked off. Not buying them from a fold-out table on Canal Street for a steal-price is a great first line of defense for us collectors ;)

"Lying" and a "coverup" do sound very cloak-and-dagger though; reminds of that movie with Mel Gibson and Julia Roberts.

That's the thing, you know on River or Canal street where you stand..

Buying PSA on EBay for market price ain't the same..

Not even in the same ballpark..PSA is almost ATT in the day..They don't care or care to admit it's a huge problem..

[MattyC]

I think it's all about managing one's expectations of ebay and also parsing out the known, safe sellers. I would only buy a high end card in any major TPG holder on ebay from a known, reputable seller with a return policy. Sellers with rock solid feedback profiles containing high dollar cards stand to care more about their reputations over the long haul than one staccato score. Thus I tend to separate the tonyetrades, and would buy high-end from such a seller on ebay with no hesitation. Ebay has its Canal Street hustlers and its Madison Ave shops, and it definitely helps to parse the two when browsing ebay for high dollar cards. I have never bought a bad slab from a top notch seller and if one slipped by the goalie, so to speak, they'd make good immediately, so for me the salient aspect is point of sale. Being very picky about where to buy high-end is a great way to avoid getting scammed; in this way some of the onus (or is it Honus ;) ) is on the shopper/collector.

[ALR-bishop]

As I recall Matt, Mel turned out to be right about the conspiracy...;)

[bnorth]

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=846031

You're not going to tell me Joe Orlando or anybody can be positive..The only way i can tell is feel the paperstock..

Thank you for the link. Great info with pics.:)

[Brianruns10]

I think it's all about managing one's expectations of ebay and also parsing out the known, safe sellers. I would only buy a high end card in any major TPG holder on ebay from a known, reputable seller with a return policy. Sellers with rock solid feedback profiles containing high dollar cards stand to care more about their reputations over the long haul than one staccato score. Thus I tend to separate the tonyetrades, and would buy high-end from such a seller on ebay with no hesitation. Ebay has its Canal Street hustlers and its Madison Ave shops, and it definitely helps to parse the two when browsing ebay for high dollar cards. I have never bought a bad slab from a top notch seller and if one slipped by the goalie, so to speak, they'd make good immediately, so for me the salient aspect is point of sale. Being very picky about where to buy high-end is a great way to avoid getting scammed; in this way some of the onus (or is it Honus ;) ) is on the shopper/collector.

Very very true. When I see a card for sale, the first thing I do is look at the seller's history...not his approval rating, but history. See what kind of cards he's been selling. If he deals in quality vintage, I take that as a good sign. But if he's selling Nascar and junk cards made in the last decade, and all of a sudden he's offering a PSA 5 '52 Mantle....very, very bad sign. Because those guys couldn't spot a phony card if it had "Repro" printed on the back.

And as for the Mantle card...that is a special case...I'd only buy from a top notch death like Probstein or the likes, or a specialty auctioneer like Mile High or Heritage Auctions. I think it's worth the buyer's premium to have the provenance of an auction guide and a highly reputable house.