W574 ...29 is an awful funny number

[brianp-beme]

There are 29 cards catalogued in the W574 set, which has remained the same since who knows when times. Is the W574 considered a strip issue? I have noticed that many of the strip sets were issued in strips of 10. Even if it is not a strip issue, 29 is an irregular number of cards to have been machine cut from sheets. Anyone have any insight or theories about this? Was one of the cards double printed, and if so has it been noted that any card is more prevalent?

Just something I always wanted to ask of the board.

Brian

[Leon]

I don't know Brian but as we do know the W574s can come with some of the largest borders, and weirdest cuts, of any pre-war cards. I can't imagine the number 29 being the way any company would physically make and distribute a set. Personally I do think they were a strip set just from the characteristics I have seen on them.

http://luckeycards.com/pw574simmons.jpg

[nolemmings]

I've wondered that too, what with 29 being a prime number. I don't know enough about the set and don't follow it closely enough to guess which card might have been double printed. Maybe there was a card pulled from production and the space on the sheet/strip was left blank or was replaced with a header card of some kind?

[brianp-beme]

Good theories Todd and Leon. It is interesting that not only do these cards only depict American Leaguers, but that representatives from two American League teams are completely absent: the Yankees and the Senators. Since the team distribution lines up like this:

White Sox - 9
Tigers - 5
Indians - 5
Browns - 5
Athletics - 3
Red Sox - 2

Perhaps the original issue was two strips of ten, including the Tigers, Indians and Browns, and perhaps 5 of the White Sox. Then another strip was added, with one holdover from the original group double-printed, and the Athletics and Red Sox and the rest of the White Sox.

Another thought. Who was the American League team in the World Series the year they were issued?

Brian

[leftygrove10]

Who was the American League team in the World Series the year they were issued?

In 1933, the New York Giants beat the Washington Senators in five games.

[leftygrove10]

In case it matters (and it very well might), the Yankees played the Cubs in the 1932 World Series.

[Tom S.]

With the Midwestern teams having the greatest number of cards in ths set, and with the White Sox being represented the most (9), would it be plausible that this set was produced in Chicago?

Many of the pictures of players from other teams appear to have been taken in old Comiskey park as well, which might support this theory.

After looking at the 1933 home schedule for the White Sox, I noticed something peculiar too. Here is the order of visiting teams to Chicago, and dates (with their corresponding number of W574 cards in parentheses):

St. Louis Browns 4/19-21 (5)
Cleveland Indians 4/22-24 (5)
Detroit Tigers 4/26-27 (5)
Philadelphia Athletics 5/4 (3)
Boston Red Sox 5/7 (2)
New York Yankees 5/8-10 (0)
Washington Senators 5/13-14 (0)

Based on this information, do you think that it could be possible that these cards might have been given away at the ballpark as promotions?

[Leon]

In thinking more about this I am not so sure on the strip hypothesis and would respectfully open it back up to debate. My main reasoning was based on odd cuts and weird, big borders. But I haven't ever seen a strip of these (though one or some, could exist). On other strip cards, most series, we have seen strips. If they were issued as strips you would think we would see at least a few uncut ones? I guess we also need to look into how/why Burdick classified them the way he did.....Just thinkin' out loud.....

[UOFLfan7]

Maybe there is a long lost card #30 somewhere out there..........

[brianp-beme]

With the Midwestern teams having the greatest number of cards in ths set, and with the White Sox being represented the most (9), would it be plausible that this set was produced in Chicago?

Many of the pictures of players from other teams appear to have been taken in old Comiskey park as well, which might support this theory.

After looking at the 1933 home schedule for the White Sox, I noticed something peculiar too. Here is the order of visiting teams to Chicago, and dates (with their corresponding number of W574 cards in parentheses):

St. Louis Browns 4/19-21 (5)
Cleveland Indians 4/22-24 (5)
Detroit Tigers 4/26-27 (5)
Philadelphia Athletics 5/4 (3)
Boston Red Sox 5/7 (2)
New York Yankees 5/8-10 (0)
Washington Senators 5/13-14 (0)

Based on this information, do you think that it could be possible that these cards might have been given away at the ballpark as promotions?


Tom...great research. I assumed that these were probably distributed in the Chicago area, but I had neglected to consider that these might be a ballpark giveaway. Are the dates you give for the first two homestands? Did the White Sox have away games on 5/5-5/6 and 5/8-5/9?

While you were checking that, I was checking the careers of the players depicted, and what I found dovetails nicely with your theory. There are four players in the set that were former members of the White Sox. They are:

Chalmer Cissell - Indians (traded from White Sox in April 1932)
Irving Hadley - Browns (traded from White Sox in April 1932)
Willie Kamm - Indians (was with the White Sox in 1931)
Carl Reynolds - Browns (was with the White Sox in 1931)

It might be natural to assume that these players were included because of their past association with the team, and if these were indeed distributed at the ballpark, it also makes sense why they were included, as these were probably passed out when their present team came into town (the Browns and Indians were the first two series that Tom listed for the season).

Also, 29 would not be an abnormal amount for the set if these were issued over time as a long term promotion...it is quite possible that the printing sheets had a single player or just a few. I think that Leon is correct in reassessing how they were produced. To me it seems less likely that they came in strip form.

Because of the team designations on the card and consulting the careers of the players, one can conclude that these were indeed most likely a 1933 issue, as there are several trades that occured in 1932 that on the cards are likewise updated to indicate the new team. Two of these traded players, Fred Marberry and Carl Reynolds, were both traded to the Tigers and Brown, respectively, on December 14th of 1932, and there cards correctly identify their 1933 team. The photos in general for these and other players are generally outdated (for example Jimmie Dykes is shown with an Athletics uniform, which he was traded from on 9/23/32, and Fred Marberry is shown with a Washington uniform). However, Al Simmons is shown with a White Sox uniform, even though he was traded to the team on 9/28/1932. I guess he was a big enough star for the producers to scramble to make sure that his photo depicted him clearly wearing his new team's uniform.

My guess is that this promotion either was supposed to include the later arriving Yankees and Senators, but something (printing issues, costs?) halted production, or that having a giveaway for the Yankees or Senators (who eventually made it to the World Series in 1933--thanks Brad) wasn't considered necessary.

Wow, it was fun coming up with all these theories...thanks again all, and especially Tom. Let us know what you think.

Brian

[Leon]

Nice thoughts Brian. I love discussing intricacies of the sets and cards themselves....I will even listen to myriad T206 theories but the oddball issues peak my interest more. This W574 series reminds me of the W503 series. Lew Lipset and some other old time collectors feel (I believe) that W503 were not strip cards either. Many feel they were candy cards. I am not aware of any strips of W503 being known, even though they too have the classification. I wonder if Mr.Burdick was just SWAG'ing it with these 2 obscure issues?

http://luckeycards.com/pw503x4.jpg

[brianp-beme]

Leon...the W503's are a great set, and in my opinion definitely not a strip issue, as the cards I have seen are all very uniform in size. If I remember correctly original finds of these have all been from the Bay area of California. The W574 are definitely cruder in design, but that does not necessarily indicate that they are strip cards.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

[QUOTE=

St. Louis Browns 4/19-21 (5)
Cleveland Indians 4/22-24 (5)
Detroit Tigers 4/26-27 (5)
Philadelphia Athletics 5/4 (3)
Boston Red Sox 5/7 (2)
New York Yankees 5/8-10 (0)
Washington Senators 5/13-14 (0)

Based on this information, do you think that it could be possible that these cards might have been given away at the ballpark as promotions?[/QUOTE]

One other interesting bit of info is that the length of the series seems to dictate the amount of non-White Sox cards issued. The Browns, Indians and Tigers each had either 2 or 3 day series, and thus 5 cards that might have given away in each of the series, while the Athletics and Red Sox had single day visits, and thus only 2 or 3 cards were given out. Does anyone know if home dates of any of these series involved doubleheaders?

Brian

[darwinbulldog]

I'm not familiar with the set, but is it possible the coincidence of teams visiting and teams represented could be due to the photos' for the cards being taken during these series (as opposed to in advance so the cards could be distributed during these series)? Are there visiting players' photos that can be identified as not having been taken at Comiskey?

[brianp-beme]

A good point DarwinB, and I am not familiar with the look of old Comiskey Park...however at least some of these cards (images of the entire set can be viewed on the Old Cardboard site) include photos from earlier in the player's career. For example, Fred Marberry, who was traded to the Tigers on 12/14/1932, is shown wearing the uniform of his previous team, the Senators. Carl Reynolds, who played with the White Sox in 1931, and another team (I didn't write it down) in 1932, is included in the set as a member of the Browns, but is wearing a White Sox uniform. As far as the White Sox players are concerned, Jimmie Dykes is shown wearing an Athletics uniform (he was traded from the A's to the White Sox late September of 1932). Al Simmons is the one player I could readily tell that had an 'updated' photo included, as he was traded to the White Sox on September 28th 1932 and is shown wearing a White Sox uniform.

Brian

[Tom S.]

One other interesting bit of info is that the length of the series seems to dictate the amount of non-White Sox cards issued. The Browns, Indians and Tigers each had either 2 or 3 day series, and thus 5 cards that might have given away in each of the series, while the Athletics and Red Sox had single day visits, and thus only 2 or 3 cards were given out. Does anyone know if home dates of any of these series involved doubleheaders?

Brian

Brian,

According to baseball-reference.com, the only doubleheader in that timeframe was on 5/7 when the Red Sox were in town. The Athletics only game in that timeframe was just prior to that on 5/4. I would guess that there were some rainouts involved during that week, thus causing those one day road trips.

[leftygrove10]

If these cards were indeed given away at Chicago White Sox baseball games, it might be possible that advertisements indicating such were put into the Chicago newspapers in the days/weeks leading up to these ball games. I don't have time to search newspapers, but it might be interesting to see if the newspapers might reveal another clue.

[brianp-beme]

Just randomly came across this old thread about the W574 set that I started almost 8 years ago which got some great input. Thought I would share it again, along with a sample of these blank backed cards.

Brian

[Jobu]

Thanks for bumping this thread. This conversation is new to me but I love to read the research threads. Hopefully someone will have something new to add.

[h2oya311]

Here's Appling:

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/1932%20Appling.jpg

so that I can add a limited amount of help to the thread, and echoing Brian's note that the photos were taken earlier, here is the corresponding press photo of Appling taken in late 1930 during his rookie season. The American League Service Bureau photo back has a 1931 date that pre-dates any games played at Comiskey Park in 1931.

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/1930%20Appling.jpg

[brianp-beme]

No updates, but happy to see that I could access a thread like this using the forum's Advanced Search feature. And a belated 'cool press photo of Appling' remark for Derek.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

An interesting fact that I personally just discovered about the W574 set. All 29 cards feature full body length poses of the players, EXCEPT the card of Jimmy Dykes as seen below. And Harry Davis is the only card with a horizontal orientation (not my card)

Brian