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View Full Version : PSA-How could you (my first post)


tazdmb
06-26-2012, 10:15 AM
Thought I would share a recent issue with PSA. Came across this Ebay listing and thought it was a steal, as the item description, and the PSA sticker confirmed that the signature was that of Lee MacPhail, however, I noted instantly that it was actually his HOF father, Larry. So I snatched it up.

I noted immediately that the signature was TOO perfect, especially for being on thin typewriter paper. I learned that the signature was actually a stamp and immediately called PSA and sent them my photos. I told them they had the wrong person and the item was not authentic. A week later I get a call back that yes, the signature was Larry (which the updated) but signature was authentic.

Fortunately I explained all this to the buyer and he had no problem issuing me a full refund and said that the letter will not be offered again as a genuine signature.

Some photos:
"signed" letter (sorry sideways)
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x25/tazdmb/LarrymacphailPSA-1.jpg
PSA "Verification" of "Lee" MacPhail
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x25/tazdmb/DNACertVerification.jpg

jgmp123
06-26-2012, 10:20 AM
So has PSA branched out to a STAMP Authentication service now?:o

RichardSimon
06-26-2012, 10:42 AM
When you try to be fast, instead of accurate, this is what can happen.
(see Roy Campanella thread).

tazdmb
06-26-2012, 11:01 AM
I saw that, but not only missing it was a stamp-but even identifying the wrong person?!

RichardSimon
06-26-2012, 11:22 AM
It really makes you wonder who is now doing the authentication work there.

travrosty
06-26-2012, 11:48 AM
Like Richard said, they go WAAAY too fast. Here is a Larry MacPhail that they slabbed as a Lee MacPhail.

The original collector even went so far as to help them out and label it as a 1934 vice president of the Reds. But was PSA paying attention, NO! They slabbed it as a Lee MacPhail, who would have been 17 years old in 1934, a pretty young age to be vice president and general manager of the Reds I would say.

They are going 600 miles an hour, slabbing anything they want with any name they want. It's pathetic. I am in concurrence with you, PSA HOW COULD YOU? The hit parade continues.

chaddurbin
06-26-2012, 11:53 AM
It really makes you wonder who is now doing the authentication work there.

from the screen grab above it was certified in '06. op got lucky with an honest seller.

JimStinson
06-26-2012, 12:03 PM
If you just flipped a coin you'd be right half the time.

jgmp123
06-26-2012, 12:34 PM
If you just flipped a coin you'd be right half the time.

Jim,

But what happens if I call Head's and get tails 10 x in a row...:D:D:D

JimStinson
06-26-2012, 01:51 PM
There is a 50% chance that the coin will lay on tails the next time. You see, the "odds" of it landing on heads vs. tails will always be 50% regardless of how many times it has landed on tails before. And to take it to the next level an authenticator of autographs could do like the "Amazing Kreskin" and just flip a coin over the unpened box of submissions and still be half right or half wrong. If you play the odds though there is a 100% probability that the deposit for that day's submissions will arrive at the bank on time.

Exhibitman
06-26-2012, 02:19 PM
Gee, I guess I should send PSA these and then count my money when they slab them as 1964 Cassius Clay signed pieces:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/boxingphotographsandephemera/large/005.jpg

jgmp123
06-26-2012, 02:53 PM
There is a 50% chance that the coin will lay on tails the next time. You see, the "odds" of it landing on heads vs. tails will always be 50% regardless of how many times it has landed on tails before. And to take it to the next level an authenticator of autographs could do like the "Amazing Kreskin" and just flip a coin over the unpened box of submissions and still be half right or half wrong. If you play the odds though there is a 100% probability that the deposit for that day's submissions will arrive at the bank on time.

If you play the odds though there is a 100% probability that the deposit for that day's submissions will arrive at the bank on time.

+1

travrosty
06-26-2012, 02:55 PM
I have to put these bad mistakes at the feet of Grad and Orlando, the buck has to stop somewhere, and Grad has been there about a decade, he's in charge of the authentication troops on the ground, and Orlando is in charge of the entire division. I always hoped they would put accuracy first and foremost ahead of submissions authenticated/day.

hint to PSA: hire more people, especially those with long time hobby experience, instead of owning card shops and autograph runners and hounds and start up a quality control dept. to catch these errors.

RichardSimon
06-26-2012, 03:47 PM
Who is doing the worK?
Though I am loath to give credit I would find it hard to believe that Grad missed that Campy or this MacPhail. Which means the "B" or "C" team (and we don't even know who that is) is doing the authenticating of many items.
You pay your money and they flip a coin and you don't know who they is.

travrosty
06-26-2012, 04:29 PM
They tout Grad as being a super expert, but your autograph might be seen by the intern from shipping, how does that work? that is why there should be a rule that whoever inspects the autograph signs off on it. almost all certs are signed by Grad, now whether or not he is inspecting all of them, or just signing off without looking at them we will never know because Orlando isn't going to say.

I have to admit Grad has a good gig going. Any mistakes can be attributed to a lesser authenticator on the squad because people have a hard time thinking Grad is making these mistakes, including me, but who knows, it might be him.

They oversell all their authenticators and we never know who looks at an item, but that's the way psa wants it.

no one to blame, it's always Authenticator X screwed up.

But the Ty cobb purported laser print, I would have a hard time thinking that a B team or C team member looked at that one without Grad inspecting it.

Whenever I see some very bad Muhammad Ali stuff, it seems to have a certain signature on the LOA. But they told me directly they needed help with boxing. But how can the world's experts need help? superman, batman, aquaman needing help?

RichardSimon
06-26-2012, 05:18 PM
I have to put these bad mistakes at the feet of Grad and Orlando, the buck has to stop somewhere, and Grad has been there about a decade, he's in charge of the authentication troops on the ground, and Orlando is in charge of the entire division. I always hoped they would put accuracy first and foremost ahead of submissions authenticated/day.

hint to PSA: hire more people, especially those with long time hobby experience, instead of owning card shops and autograph runners and hounds and start up a quality control dept. to catch these errors.

The buck does stop with Grad and Orlando.
They should let people know who actually is examining the items but they never will. When their team is out on the road Grad is not there much from what I have been told.
Collectors are paying "A Team" dollars and getting the "D team" looking at their submissions.

travrosty
06-27-2012, 12:15 AM
their website lists 4 authenticators, grad, rullo, low, and sobrero. the rest are consultant authenticators.

so who is at the new east coast office? they must have authenticators they are not listing, why? afraid we might figure something out?

when i offered to help them out i insisted no picture or bio on their site. too embarrassing, maybe if i had a bag on my head? the unknown authenticator.

If they only listened to suggestions and retooled and reformed their business model. I would have a business model of accuracy first and not volume first. I would want volume, but not at the expense of accuracy.

jgmp123
06-27-2012, 09:04 AM
Maybe PSA could use this guy....I heard he's pretty good with that microscope...:D:D:D

travrosty
06-27-2012, 01:23 PM
if they hired him, he could be their top man. hahaha who would know?

Exhibitman
06-29-2012, 12:29 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/88/MagooAndDog.jpg/300px-MagooAndDog.jpg

Scott Garner
06-30-2012, 08:27 AM
Gee, I guess I should send PSA these and then count my money when they slab them as 1964 Cassius Clay signed pieces:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/boxingphotographsandephemera/large/005.jpg

Here is a rubber stamped Doc Gooden 3 x 5 that was passed by JSA as a real sig.

How did they ever get this wrong unless they didn't even look at it up close? :rolleyes:

GrayGhost
06-30-2012, 08:52 AM
IN all honesty, it seems to me that people with Lower advertising budget can take the time to ACTUALLY examine signatures. PSA and JSA have so many people buying on "rep" only, they think they can go fast sometimes, and due to this, make errors or mistakes like this thread. They still get many more right than the FDS moronic twits, but still.

Education first, and going w people Like Keating, Richard, Mr. Stinson an d others seems to be the way to go. Again tho, its sad, but if you had a big item and wanted resale at some point, the Cereal guys letter "looks good"

I know which way Id go if I came across a valuable piece, now its up to everyone else to figure their way out. It just seems logical what the right answer is, w what we have been seeing.