PSA vs SGC...the definitive Debate!!!

[ullmandds]

Yes...this topic has been beaten to death...shall we come to a definitive conclusion to put it to rest?

Who sucks the least...PSA or SGC...please feel free to post evidence to support your arguments!!!!!

[CMIZ5290]

Peter, i think you know where i stand. They both make plenty of mistakes. But when it comes to resale value on your investment, psa cards bring alot more money, especially t206s.......

[rainier2004]

Bust 'em all out...

[glchen]

I love them both (and BVG too). Now please give me good grades on my submissions!!

[gorrister]

I'm a cracker, but if I had to choose, SGC has a more appealing holder.

[zljones]

Am I the only one that thinks the PSA holder is cooler looking? :o

[Matthew H]

Bust 'em all out...

+1. Put them back in when it's time to sell

[usernamealreadytaken]

I like SGC for consistency, customer service and value, but can't argue that PSA brings more $$. Not sure that will change . . .

[g_vezina_c55]

I prefer sgc but i also love psa cards but in my collection i have 1.5x more sgc cards.
I love the look of the SGC holder

[ullmandds]

I like SGC for consistency, customer service and value, but can't argue that PSA brings more $$. Not sure that will change . . .


+1!

[g_vezina_c55]

I like SGC for consistency, customer service and value, but can't argue that PSA brings more $$. Not sure that will change . . .


+1!

+2 not sure too that will not change, many time when we talk about grading mistake etc, psa is almost everytime involve, so i am not sure this will not change

[GregMitch34]

Probably this has been done here already, but would be interesting for folks to make two lists (subjective):

What PSA tends to go easy on (very forgiving) in grading--and where it is very tough

Same for SGC.

[Jlighter]

Am I the only one that thinks the PSA holder is cooler looking? :o

Couldn't agree more, red and white over green and white.

[Jlighter]

+2 not sure too that will not change, many time when we talk about grading mistake etc, psa is almost everytime involve, so i am not sure this will not change

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure PSA grades more cards which could explain more mistakes.

[SushiX37]

I agree with Zach and Jake. PSA offers a better case, easier to read grading, and tracking that can easily be accessed on their website.

Rich

[srs1a]

Definitive makes me laugh on this subject. It is a religious debate with financial overtones.

[zljones]

The PSA case is slimer so more of them fit into my bin. SGC cases are too bulky looking.

[RGold]

The PSA case is slimer so more of them fit into my bin. SGC cases are too bulky looking.

You misspelled slimier.

[pcoz]

I like SGC for accuracy, but because of collectors affinity for the PSA Registry, they bring higher prices IMO. Also, I love how my cards stand out in the SGC holder. Drives me nuts in some of the PSA holders when the cards move all around.

[Dave1943]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by zljones
The PSA case is slimer so more of them fit into my bin. SGC cases are too bulky looking.

You misspelled slimier.

+1 lol

[GasHouseGang]

Definitive makes me laugh on this subject. It is a religious debate with financial overtones.

I agree. I'd almost rather discuss religion and/or politics before taking a side in this debate!:p

[HRBAKER]

Vintage Style

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s172/hrbaker/BeatDeadHorse1.gif

[CMIZ5290]

Current score sgc 53, psa 11....i just simply don't get it. If we all are collectors and at some point want to sell, why would you not go with the grading company that brings the most money?

[ullmandds]

For the most part...I don't buy/collect cards with the intent to sell!

My primary reason for collecting is the enjoyment I derive from the hobby and owning the cards themselves...not the satisfaction I may receive from getting top dollar for my cards if and when I decide to sell them.

I am more a man or morals...of ethics...and of esthetics...and SGC does a better job for what my needs and desires are.

[CMIZ5290]

Peter, i agree to some point, but i know i am not going to collect cards for the rest of my life. So what do you do with them at that point when you are either looking to retire or no longer collect? Most collectors sell. That's all i'm saying.

[christopher.herman]

For the most part...I don't buy/collect cards with the intent to sell!

My primary reason for collecting is the enjoyment I derive from the hobby and owning the cards themselves...not the satisfaction I may receive from getting top dollar for my cards if and when I decide to sell them.

I am more a man or morals...of ethics...and of esthetics...and SGC does a better job for what my needs and desires are.

+1 Well said, Peter.

[pcoz]

For the most part...I don't buy/collect cards with the intent to sell!

My primary reason for collecting is the enjoyment I derive from the hobby and owning the cards themselves...not the satisfaction I may receive from getting top dollar for my cards if and when I decide to sell them.

I am more a man or morals...of ethics...and of esthetics...and SGC does a better job for what my needs and desires are.

+2

[T206Collector]

Somebody who collects PSA 5s is going to have to tell me how they live with the regular occurrence of PSA 5s with creases. I have owned hundreds of SGC 60s and PSA 5s over the past decade. The PSA 5 with creases is a plague. I have NEVER -- really NEVER -- seen an SGC 60 with a crease or wrinkle.

Plus, I have no idea who is grading PSA cards. SGC makes its graders available for discussions at shows. I have had half a dozen conversations with Bob Luce at SGC about grading T206s of all conditions.

PSA has no customer service and inconsistent grading. The reasons they may get more money for their cards is unrelated to the quality of their product.

[vintagetoppsguy]

The reasons they may get more money for their cards is unrelated to the quality of their product.

Agreed. Besides, I'm not convinced that they do overall. Sure, some PSA cards sell for more than their SGC equivalency, but there are also many SGC cards that sell for more than their PSA equivalency.

[calvindog]

Peter, i agree to some point, but i know i am not going to collect cards for the rest of my life. So what do you do with them at that point when you are either looking to retire or no longer collect? Most collectors sell. That's all i'm saying.

On sets of which the Registry is competitive PSA cards bring more money upon resale; but on postcards and type cards SGC does just as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The reasons they may get more money for their cards is unrelated to the quality of their product.

So you say, but the laws of market economics say otherwise.

[T206Collector]

So you say, but the laws of market economics say otherwise.

The market rewards PSA for its registry, proliferation and price-realization-expectation. The quality of their product -- consistent grading -- is seriously lacking, and cannot possibly be driving the value of a PSA holder.

[sycks22]

Now on day 24 of my 5 day submission to PSA. SGC has never been late and even worked with me on a better price on some of my submission cards

[glynparson]

I'll take SGC, If submitted by a major submitter I'll take they both SUCK.

[brianp-beme]

I have never submitted a card for grading, and dislike what the whole grading subculture has wrought upon the hobby...but on a rare occasion I have purchased graded cards (nowadays raw can only get you so far). I have seen a greater percentage of mistakes and inaccurate grading in PSA cards, while the black inserts in the SGC cases make the cards stand out. In my perspective PSA does top SGC in one way...their slimmer cases take up less room.

Brian

[4815162342]

PSA, SGC, and BVG all have the same flaw: they hire human beings. Human beings lack the ability to be completely impartial. Computers are impartial however and I believe in the not-too-distant future that image processing technology will lead to automated grading.

Yes, software architects and developers are human beings, but a programming flaw (for example, an improper angle calculation for off-center/miscut/diamond-cut detection) would impartially affect all cards, regardless of whether the subject was an E98 Wagner or a 1950 Callahan Wagner.

[wonkaticket]

Peter you left out PRO up there I love those guys.

[Matthew H]

I guess it's finally settled, PSA is better

[T206Collector]

PSA, SGC, and BVG all have the same flaw: they hire human beings.

True, but the humans at work at SGC include certain graders who have been there since the beginning of the company. Like I said, Bob Luce at SGC is terrific and is one of the people on this planet who actually should be grading T206 cards. When you submit a T206 to SGC, he is one of the guys there who will look at it.

In my experience, those who say PSA and SGC both make human mistakes tend to be PSA collectors who think the inconsistent grading they have in their collections would have been the same if they had SGC grade their cards. It wouldn't be the same. SGC is much more consistent.

Finally, what's up with the "baggie" on oversized T206s, PSA? Yuck!

[bobbyw8469]

SGC is much more consistent.

I wouldn't say that. I can show you around 50 Mutoscope cases that I had to crack out because SGC blew the grades on every single one of them. And I think BigDaddyBowman has a pic of all the SGC cases he had to break out because they blew his grades too.

[jp1216]

I've always favored the SGC slab, customer service etc. In the mid '90s, my first SGC card was the '59 Mantle. Red on Black is amazing. Post war card in a SGC holder was rare. Still is, but I was hooked. Sent in 25 more '59s to get them graded. More for the look than the number on the label.

I too believe PSA (usually) brings more in resale - but I'm not collecting for resale. My heirs will be left a note saying "consider sending everything to PSA for more $$".

BGS slabs are too big - but are hurricane proof. PSAs are too easy (IMO) to fake or reseal.

OT: I can't stand those registries. I've seen too many 9s that look better than 10s - but are 'worth' 90% less because to the label. I even own a 10 with a wax stain on the back.

[T206Collector]

I wouldn't say that. I can show you around 50 Mutoscope cases that I had to crack out because SGC blew the grades on every single one of them. And I think BigDaddyBowman has a pic of all the SGC cases he had to break out because they blew his grades too.

Sounds like SGC was consistent and you just disagreed with the grades. I would definitely like to see scans of what you are talking about. Mutoscope is non-sports? 1940s?

[danmckee]

WOW! I actually voted for PSA considering the problems and the volume. I was shocked to see that I am in the minority. Interesting.

[teetwoohsix]

I found that after awhile, I started giving the card my own grades, probably like many of you do. It may say it's a 4, I may say it's a 3 as example. I guess I'm saying I look at the card first anyways, their grades are only a reference point-you make the final decision. I can see though, how it would matter more to someone from the selling point of view.

SGC
BVG
PSA

Sincerely, Clayton

[JohnP0621]

I have to go with PSA. In my opinion there grading is much more consistent.
I think they grade differently. SGC seem to grade their cards 1/2 to 1 grade higher than PSA. I have seen many SGC 60 that would be a PSA 4 and SGC 50 that would be a PSA 3 OR 3 1/2. That is why some people prefer SGC because their grades come back higher. A lot of people also buy grade PSA with Qualifiers and crack them and send to SCG and get a nice grade with no qualifier. They both make some mistakes but who doesnt. We all like to think that are cards should grade higher regardless of which company grades them and whoever does not give us the grade we think that we deserve sucks more .
I prefer PSA.

John P

[philliesphan]

I like applesauce

[ullmandds]

John p...while i respect your opinion...you could not be more wrong!!!

[barrysloate]

I found that after awhile, I started giving the card my own grades, probably like many of you do. It may say it's a 4, I may say it's a 3 as example. I guess I'm saying I look at the card first anyways, their grades are only a reference point-you make the final decision. I can see though, how it would matter more to someone from the selling point of view.

SGC
BVG
PSA

Sincerely, Clayton

I'm 100% with Clayton on this. Learn to grade your own cards. All of us go through a learning process when we get into vintage cards and memorabilia, so why not make grading your own cards as part of the process.

TPG does the hobby a great service by examining cards and weeding out the ones that are trimmed and altered. I'm sure that has saved collectors thousands of dollars. Assigning grades, on the other hand, is really not a useful service. First off, it's too subjective and the grade can be changed on a resubmission. Second, the various companies use different standards so cards will not always receive the same grades when crossed over. Finally, many collectors disagree with the grades anyway. Just too many variables for it to make any sense.

Collectors should grade their own cards, and the TPG's should just stick to authenticating and that's it. That has always been my position and I know you've seen me repeat it more than a few times.

[ullmandds]

Barry... I would venture to guess that grading has made people many many millions of dollars more... then it has saved them?!

[barrysloate]

Peter- I could spend a long time giving you my response to what you said, but I'll leave it for now. Sure, if you resubmit an 8 and it comes back a 9, you will make a lot of money. But......

[JohnP0621]

Peter,
I am glad that you respect my opinion as I respect yours and everyone elses. That is all that I gave was my opinion based on my experience with both parties .You can disagree with me because Its only my opinion and it does not mean anything. I am sure you have your reasons for liking SGC. I usually dont get involved in these debates because its like discussing politics. Collecting T206 is only a Hobby for me and I dont get to wrapped up in all the debates on whos a better grader or anything else. I just enjoy the hobby. If we all had the same experience we would not be having this debate. If I am unhappy with a service I just dont use that service any more. A lot of collectors complain about the service but keep using it.
I am not advocating using either or any grading company. I just have had a better experience with PSA and so thats who I prefer. I wouldnt mind going back to the old days with no graders but those days are long gone. I used to prefer to buy ungraded cards but it is hard to get an honest accessment on the cards grades from some dealers and these cards are expensive so I only buy graded ones now, so that I dont get ripped off. I dont think any of the grading companys are out to screw any of us. I just think that it is an unperfect service and that the grades will always be debatable.

Happpy Collecting
Regards
John P

[AndyG09]

If PSA cards sell for more when sold, aren't you paying more for them when bought? Not sure how this might be advantageous?

Best,

Andy

[ullmandds]

c'mon, Barry! I'd love to hear it!!!!

[GregMitch34]

Well, as Jeff Daniels says in the opening of "Newsroom" when pressed repeatedly about whether he is a Republican or a Democrat: "I am...a New York Jets fan."

[barrysloate]

I don't want to start rambling Peter, it's bad form. But when an 8 becomes a 9 the grading company is minting money. It's like the treasury printing hundred dollar bills. Nothing has been produced, it's just monopoly money. Is that good for the hobby? It's debatable.

But the money angle aside, grading is far too subjective and undefined for me. I would be a big supporter of it if it were really consistent among the major companies, and if it were done so precisely that one could rarely ever expect the grade to change upon resubmission. Then I would feel we've got something good. But how many times have you heard of people sending a card in three times and getting three different grades? Sorry, but it's not a system I have all that much faith in. But if I'm selling cards, which I don't do anymore, I'd get every one of them graded because the market dictates it. As a collector I wouldn't care one way or the other.

[ullmandds]

well...so far this poll is turning out the way i would have expected. as this site is more of a "hard core collector" site...I'd expect SGC to be preferred...as they are more accurate, more consistent...and have nicer holders.

If this were a vintage bb card "investment" forum...dominated by mainly collectors of the "popular" sets(T206, 33 goudey, 52 topps)...I'd expect PSA to dominate!

I agree w/Barry's sentiment...I just wished there was more uniformity... and more anonymity with the 3PGServices.

[Matthew H]

According to your statement Peter:

SGC collector= hard core

PSA collector= investor

Raw collector= ?

[ullmandds]

Matthew...I wouldn't say it is absolute...of course...but if the main reason to have PSA graded cards is for resale...make your own judgments!!!!

Raw collector = smartest collector as he/she can handle his/her cards and really learn about them!

[Rickyy]

This is just based on my own experience....PSA grading is more all over the map...I like SGC holders better in terms of aesthetics and also the cards don't float around loosely (I can't understand why PSA still can't fix that on some issues). I have had positive experiences with both in terms of customer service and PSA has done a better job of labeling the cards (I had to resubmit a few back to SGC for errors). SGC is also easier to make submissions to...without having to join a club and without having to label the cards etc...

If I had to choose between one or the other I guess I prefer SGC, but I don't dislike PSA.

Ricky Y

[Jason]

I say SGC.They havent let me down yet and they have great customer service in regards to submitting cards.Jason

[Jay Wolt]

PSA has graded over 19 million cards. It would be crazy to say that they are all in the hands of investors or registry people.
I like both PSA & SGC to collect (I'm on both registries) and for re-sale, I've had very few problems with either & I'm glad both are in the hobby.

[bbcard1]

I cast my vote for GAI. And also for Mrs. Howell.

(if you are under 50 you probably don't get it).

[bbsports]

My vote goes to PRO. With PRO you know what kind of cards their grading. With SGC & PSA, it's like buying a box of Cracker Jack. You never know what your going to get.

[Matthew80]

Couple of questions from a rookie:

1. Is it widely believed to be true that the name of the submitter can influence the grade?!

2. Are there any studies (reputable or otherwise) that have tested the popular claim that these companies grade inconsistently? It seems like it would be a great way to objectively identify which of the two is most consistent.

3. Is the experience and anticipation of waiting for a submitted card an enjoyable or scary one? In other words, do they tend to be too generous or picky? I'm not sure which way they lean, or if they're really all over the board.

Thanks in advance.

[bobbyw8469]

Sounds like SGC was consistent and you just disagreed with the grades. I would definitely like to see scans of what you are talking about. Mutoscope is non-sports? 1940s?

SGC was consistent. Consistently bad. Mutoscopes are 1940's pin-up girls. I won a box of vending from one of the major auction houses. These cards looked brand new. I called Michael Goldberg and asked him about grading the entire set. I wanted to pay extra for the "My Divers Liscense" card as that is the money card and they had to custom make a gasket. The gaskets that they normally use don't fit the cards, and they just float around. I told Michael, that any 8's and above that I got, I wanted to pay extra for the custom gasket. When they were graded, and I asked Micahel how much extra I owed him, he laughed and said "nothing - none of your cards graded that high". I got mostly 4's-6's. The Diver's liscense card graded a '7' and looked more like and '8' or '9'.
When I got the cards back in hand, I looked them over and showed them to my girlfriend, who tolerates the hobby even though she is into other things. I showed her some of the 4's, and she laughed "How did this get a '4'? This looks brand new!?!?!" I stated, "My thoughts exactly" and proceeded to crack them all out of the cases. If I had left them in the cases with the incorrect grades, buyers woulda focused on the grades and not the cards, and I would've received peanuts for the cards. Instead, I sold them raw, got a decent amount, and the bidder who bought the majority of the cards shipped them off to PSA, where he proceeded to get 7's and 8's. I did call SGC for clarification and was told that there must have been "minute cracking/crazing" that can't be seen with the naked eye, and can only be seen with extreme magnification! WTF!?!?! That whole lesson cost me around $400-$500.

PS - I saved the scan of the "money card"
http://img2.sellersourcebook.com/users/73693/@@_scan0001_1270772479.jpg

[teetwoohsix]

I'm 100% with Clayton on this. Learn to grade your own cards. All of us go through a learning process when we get into vintage cards and memorabilia, so why not make grading your own cards as part of the process.

TPG does the hobby a great service by examining cards and weeding out the ones that are trimmed and altered. I'm sure that has saved collectors thousands of dollars. Assigning grades, on the other hand, is really not a useful service. First off, it's too subjective and the grade can be changed on a resubmission. Second, the various companies use different standards so cards will not always receive the same grades when crossed over. Finally, many collectors disagree with the grades anyway. Just too many variables for it to make any sense.

Collectors should grade their own cards, and the TPG's should just stick to authenticating and that's it. That has always been my position and I know you've seen me repeat it more than a few times.

Thanks Barry- I was hoping my post made sense ;)

I also agree with everything you said. I think people's priorities will determine who likes what TPG better.....people who mostly only collect want consistency......people who mainly sell want whoever will give the highest grade *in some cases, even if it's not accurate.

My collection is like a big salad....SGC,BVG,PSA,and raw (sorry, no PRO :p). I just want the card.

Sincerely, Clayton

[glynparson]

looks like an 84 to me. maybe an 86.

[Pup6913]

looks like an 84 to me. maybe an 86.

+1 and to add it sounds as though you sent them to SGC because you trusted that they would grade the cards accuratly, which they did using their grading scale, but are pissed they don't grade like PSA where they have a grading scale but is rarely used properly, if at all.

[bobbyw8469]

I sent to SGC because I thought they knew the issue and had a special going on. Apparently they were unfamiliar with the issue, because when you grade cards that look brand new as '4's, then something is wrong with that picture. PSA grading the same card as an '8' affirms that one of the two doesn't really know what they are doing. That is too wide of a swing. Me being a consumer, I tend to side with the company grading the card an '8'. If a vending card comes back a '4', there better be a surface wrinkle, white on all 4 corners, SOMETHING. Not an excuse like microscopic surface cracking that can only be seen under extreme magnificaton.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Sounds like SGC was consistent and you just disagreed with the grades.

I agree with this. Bobby, you may not have like the grades, but they were consistent. The Diver's License card does look better than the assigned grade. I agree with you there. However, none of us had the privilege to have the cards in hand so we really can't tell. SGC did and they saw something they didn't like.

Let me ask you this, Bobby. Would you rather have a card that, IN YOUR OPINION, was undergraded or would you rather have a card like this that is FOR A FACT overgraded?

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x137/vintagetoppsguy/Personal/Bigchief.jpg

[bobbyw8469]

David, PSA has something called a "Grade Guarantee". They are humans, same as the SGC graders grading mint vending box cards as 4's. The card you show was turned in for their "Grade Guarantee", reassigned the proper grade, and a check was cut for the monetary difference. Your disdain for PSA shows constantly, however, I can show you problems with BOTH graders. Let Big Chief rest.

[glynparson]

Agree 100%. SGC has made similar errors. In fact Id bet on percentage of cards graded the numbers are extremelly accurate.

[JohnP0621]

Regardless of who you like better. I think that both grading companys probably make a mistake on less than 1 out of every 100 cards. Both companys use humans to grade their cards . Sometimes I get a card graded and feel that it should have graded higher but other times I feel I got a better grade than the card deserves. But 99% of the time the grade is accurate. That happens with both graders. If you dont like the service dont use it. But grading is here to stay. So lets just move on to another subject.

John P

[tiger8mush]

I just want the card.



+1

[phikappapsi]

I like them both. In the Internet sales age, TPG companies a the best hedge we have in the hobby to guard against forgeries.

They both make mistakes, at a pretty similar rate, but on the whole they both do pretty good jobs. And they both do their best to rectify their problems when they have them.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Agree 100%. SGC has made similar errors. In fact Id bet on percentage of cards graded the numbers are extremelly accurate.

You may agree 100%, but you couldn't be any more wrong. Show me one SGC card with paper loss that is graded a 4 or higher. I can show you many PSA cards with paper loss that are graded a 4 or higher.

[whitehse]

Isnt this just a case of personal preference and to argue this issue is a moot point?

I dont understand the need to have this type of thread once a year when in the end it is only a personal choice of which TPG we all like and use (or dont use as the case may be).

[ullmandds]

DO NOT DIMINISH THE VALUE OF THIS POLL...the results will be definitive and FINAL!!!!! After the poll is over...and the results tabulated...there will be no reason to ever...ever discuss 3PG'raders!!!!!

Please Cooperate!

[glynparson]

Listen I worked there I saw buybacks come in all the time. You have no clue. particularly from the Joe Merkel era, they have many bad graded cards. I have seen the results you're just being a fanboy. There are many cards outside the centering standards, cards with writing, poorly trimmed cards with number grades, and yes they have even missed paper loss. I don't make it a point to collect scans so i don't have any, i collect cards. Trust me I personally like the guys at SGC much more than PSA but I don't think as a whole they've done any better than PSA despite the wishes and beliefs of some on this board. Just because Michael for years offered hand holding customer service, which many of you appreciated for good reason, does not make the graders any better. I have no more faith in Bob's abilities than anyones at PSA. I do think Scott is a better grader than anyone at PSA, including Reza, on a regular persons submission.

[Matthew H]

David, PSA has something called a "Grade Guarantee". They are humans, same as the SGC graders grading mint vending box cards as 4's. The card you show was turned in for their "Grade Guarantee", reassigned the proper grade, and a check was cut for the monetary difference. Your disdain for PSA shows constantly, however, I can show you problems with BOTH graders. Let Big Chief rest.

I agree with Bobby on this one, I've purchased many undergraded cards in SGC holders... Seller beware, I guess. Maybe you forgot to buddy up wih the graders. Next time bring pizza and beer.

I think SGC is too carefull with grades sometimes. The seller ends up losing our in these situations.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I agree with Bobby on this one, I've purchased many undergraded cards in SGC holders... Seller beware, I guess. Maybe you forgot to buddy up wih the graders. Next time bring pizza and beer.

I think SGC is too carefull with grades sometimes. The seller ends up losing our in these situations.

I agree with Bobby on this one too. His card looks better than an 84. I also agree that I have purchased many undergraded cards in SGC holders and yes, maybe it means SGC is being too carefull (conservative) with grades.

However, if you are a buyer, isn't that a good thing (wouldn't you want a better looking card for a better price) or am I missing something? That's why I buy SGC graded cards because I know there's a good chance that it was graded conservatively and the card may be nicer than it's PSA counterpart.

Then again, that's from a buyer's perspective. If I was a seller and wanted to get more bang for my buck, I would probably go with PSA because I know they're not going to grade as careful and the card will sell for more.

[teetwoohsix]

About missing paper loss.......how does a "grader" miss paper loss?!? I mean, does he look at the edges for 3 seconds and throw a grade on it? PAPER LOSS. Right there in his face. What the? I haven't seen that happen with SGC-maybe it has happened, but I haven't seen it.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Matthew H]

I agree with Bobby on this one too. His card looks better than an 84. I also agree that I have purchased many undergraded cards in SGC holders and yes, maybe it means SGC is being too carefull (conservative) with grades.

However, if you are a buyer, isn't that a good thing (wouldn't you want a better looking card for a better price) or am I missing something? That's why I buy SGC graded cards because I know there's a good chance that it was graded conservatively and the card may be nicer than it's PSA counterpart.

Then again, that's from a buyer's perspective. If I was a seller and wanted to get more bang for my buck, I would probably go with PSA because I know they're not going to grade as careful and the card will sell for more.

Sure, if your a buyer, but buyers are not the ones subbing cards. TPGs are for sellers trying to get max value for their cards. That's not going to happen with SGC. If I had to guess, they grade conservatively to keep buyers of cards from demanding they make good on their guarantee.

Why any sellers use their service is beyond me. To those who say the black make their card pop, hold a raw one in your hand and see how it pops then.

I've busted many SGC cards out and from experience, that black insert does more damage then good. I know all of you that have sgc cards have seen the card slip behind the insert. That insert is fairly sharp with sometimes somewhat jagged edges.

Oh and BTW, is that the Plank I sold you? :) I know the condition flaw it has but the grade is a bummer.

[CMIZ5290]

Matt- you are exactly right about the inserts with sgc holders. I have a few high end t206s (84's and higher) that have indentions (small lifts of the paper) on the back of the card, top and bottom, and the length of the indention is exactly the same width as the insert. It make me sick to my stomach because the cards are so extremely sharp other than that. What the hell am i suppose to do now??

[Matthew H]

I had an Obak in an SGC slab that wouldn't stay out from behind the insert, no matter how many times I tapped the edges to center it. After closer inspection, I realized the insert was actually a tiny bit smaller then the card itself, that's why I couldn't get it to sit right in the holder.

[glynparson]

The cases also often pop open without frosting when done in a certain way. I know this is a problem with PSA as well.

[oldjudge]

Bobbie--that card could have been at least a 9 if someone removed that rotten sign. Does you girlfriend ask why you bought a case of pinup cards?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Oh and BTW, is that the Plank I sold you? :) I know the condition flaw it has but the grade is a bummer.

Yup, that's the Plank. A good example of what I was talking about. It has all the eye appeal of a VG/EX card, but a low technical grade. I could really care less about the number on the front. I just want to be sure it's original and unaltered.

I think it should have graded higher as I'm sure you did too. And I think if I cracked it out and sent it to PSA it would grade higher (2.5 or 3). That's not a knock on PSA by saying they overgrade, I really believe it's undergraded. However, if it were a PSA 2.5 or 3, it would have cost me a lot more money. Same card, more money. Makes no sense. I just feel that by buying SGC graded cards I get a much better card (eye appeal) that is more conservatively graded for the money (and the Plank is a perfect example).

If I ever decide to sell it, I may crack it out and send it to PSA to see if I can get a higher grade. I don't think I would have anything to lose. But as for now I plan to keep it and don't really care about the holder that it resides in, just that it's the real deal as I mentioned.

Anyway, again that is from a buyers perspective. If I were a seller, I would probably go with PSA.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x137/vintagetoppsguy/Pre-War%20Cards/E95Plank.jpg

[Matthew H]

Yup, that's the Plank. A good example of what I was talking about. It has all the eye appeal of a VG/EX card, but a low technical grade. I could really care less about the number on the front. I just want to be sure it's original and unaltered.

I think it should have graded higher as I'm sure you did too. And I think if I cracked it out and sent it to PSA it would grade higher (2.5 or 3). That's not a knock on PSA by saying they overgrade, I really believe it's undergraded. However, if it were a PSA 2.5 or 3, it would have cost me a lot more money. Same card, more money. Makes no sense. I just feel that by buying SGC graded cards I get a much better card (eye appeal) that is more conservatively graded for the money (and the Plank is a perfect example).

If I ever decide to sell it, I may crack it out and send it to PSA to see if I can get a higher grade. I don't think I would have anything to lose. But as for now I plan to keep it and don't really care about the holder that it resides in, just that it's the real deal as I mentioned.

Anyway, again that is from a buyers perspective. If I were a seller, I would probably go with PSA.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x137/vintagetoppsguy/Pre-War%20Cards/E95Plank.jpg

FWIW I sold it to you for what I bought it for. Pretty good deal. People ignored the card and couldn't get past the holder.

[Leon]

Does you girlfriend ask why you bought a case of pinup cards?


They ARE his girlfriend :). BTW, because of the cracking Bobby mentioned there is no doubt in my mind they are technically graded correctly. Just because a card is in a 3-4 holder doesn't mean it will sell for an average 3-4 price. If I have a high-end-for-the-grade card I usually ask more than an average-for-the-grade card. It happens frequently with SGC cards as they do grade conservatively. As I just said in the M116 thread, I paid a premium for the SGC 40 Matty but it should go for more than a 4 because of the way it looks.




.
.

[vintagetoppsguy]

FWIW I sold it to you for what I bought it for. Pretty good deal. People ignored the card and couldn't get past the holder.

I think there are times when grading a card can actually decrease the value rather than increase the value? If you were to have sold the same card raw with an accurate description and clear scans, would it have sold for more money (as opposed to someone not being able to get past the techincal grade on the slab)? I think maybe so.

[cobblove]

I will not buy a SGC card. I dont trust the case and I dont like OC cards.

[T206Collector]

There's a lot of "people grade cards and people make mistakes" comments in this thread. Sounds like PSA-apologists to me.

I am asking for just one -- one -- SGC graded card at 60 or higher with a visible crease.

Just

One

You can say SGC must make the same proportion of mistakes as PSA, but can you produce a single example of an SGC 60+ with a visible crease?

Try buying PSA 5s on the blind and see how long it takes you to find one. I just got this one a couple of weeks ago. Top left corner crease. Hard to see in a scan, but really easy to see in person. Probably an SGC 40. Oh well.

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/wZCe3AbT-RIuyW7dTa7T5EbbPrYp6YHrRqcN_cfzkkQ?feat=embedwebsi te"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5wIjVru97uk/T9_KwE9VDQI/AAAAAAAAK_8/5iPLSnvhaGk/s800/Carrigan_PSA_5.5.jpg" height="800" width="479" /></a>

[glynparson]

like I said, but I can assure you they bought back high grade cards because of creases that were missed or pressed out and returned. PSA does allow for a wrinkle on a card up to a 6 so because there are different standards you can't really scream about it thats just a fact, like sgc allows for weaker corners on an average 5. Plus Paul have you ever seen anything negative from SGC you may be the biggest fanboy on here and if you are calling me a psa apologist also a fool. I have ripped PSA unmercifully at times but Im just sick of many on here criticizing PSA for things that SGC also does than applauding SGC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I were submitting a card and wanted the best assessment possible of authenticity and grade, I would choose SGC. If I were buying a card of unknown origin on the open market, I would lean slightly towards PSA, although I would be wary of both.

[T206Collector]

like I said, but I can assure you they bought back high grade cards because of creases that were missed or pressed out and returned. PSA does allow for a wrinkle on a card up to a 6 so because there are different standards you can't really scream about it thats just a fact, like sgc allows for weaker corners on an average 5. Plus Paul have you ever seen anything negative from SGC you may be the biggest fanboy on here and if you are calling me a psa apologist also a fool. I have ripped PSA unmercifully at times but Im just sick of many on here criticizing PSA for things that SGC also does than applauding SGC.

Fanboy? You mean SGC proponent? Sure, I may be the biggest SGC supporter on here. But what's my bias?

I have purchased 32 PSA 5 T206s since April for my mid-grade set. And it drives me crazy how much crap is currently for sale in a PSA 5 holder. I have to be a lot more careful with PSA than I am with SGC. That was my experience 10 years ago, when I began my first set, and that is my experience today as I work on a second.

[Pup6913]

2 stories.

I have a PSA 4 T205 Shulte pied 42 with 4 pin holes in it. One in each corner. An SGC 1 tops and I am fine with that. It would be accuratly graded then.

About 6 yrs ago I drove to whicita ks to buy a collection of new and vintage. He produced an unopened pack of 57 topps that I had him throw in to seal the deal. I busted the pack and pulled a Clemente that was mint. I sent it to sgc and it came back a 5. I resubmitted it for review thinking there is no way it is that and they put it in a graded bag and circled the upper left corner on the back where there was a slight spider crease or what I thought was a flaw in the cardstock. I sold the card for decent money though. What got me was the dealer that bought it submitted it to PSA and it now resides in a PSA 9 slab is what he told me. So how's that right? I could have did that also but would have felt like a thief had I sold it for 9 money. So if you sleep better at night using PSA over SGC that is fine but for me I prefer consistancy and integrity. I buy the card and not the holder anyways. Took me a while to learn but it was an easy choice after I learned my cards.

[glynparson]

Peter has made in my opinion the most accurate post of this entire thread.

Also Paul i will admit T206 does seem to be the set with the most PSA screw ups, and this may be part of the explanation for your vitriol, which I dont necessarily disagree with, I just have no more faith in SGC because of thier cronyism than PSA. If you look at some of the right places I think you'd be just as disgusted as many others have become.

[chaddurbin]

ignored this thread 'til now, cuz it's stupid, not sure if pete was serious starting this thread but...

i did have an sgc60 t206 young years back with the much worse corner crease than the carrigan. it bothered me so much because the card was jarred during shipping and shifted out of the black insert, so i wasn't sure if the shipping caused further damage. looking back at the auction scan i could see the wrinkling was there b4 being shipped. up until that point i also thought sgc don't allow crease/wrinkling in EX cards either.

There's a lot of "people grade cards and people make mistakes" comments in this thread. Sounds like PSA-apologists to me.

I am asking for just one -- one -- SGC graded card at 60 or higher with a visible crease.

Just

One

You can say SGC must make the same proportion of mistakes as PSA, but can you produce a single example of an SGC 60+ with a visible crease?

[CMIZ5290]

Chad- glad you posted that. I also have a t206 sgc 70 mordecai brown (tolstoi) with a tiny, tiny crease at the bottom on the back of the card. The card looks like an 8, so in my mind, sgc hit the card a couple of grades because of that....

[vintagetoppsguy]

I challenged anyone to post a scan of an SGC card with paper loss that is graded a 4 or higher. Nobody can do it. I can post scans of several PSA cards with paper loss that are graded a 4 or higher (many that are graded a PSA 6).

Somebody else challenged anyone to post a scan of an SGC card with a visible crease graded 5 or higher. Again, nobody can do it. Below is a better scan of the Carrigan (PSA 5.5) with the corner crease.

I hear chatter, no scans.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x137/vintagetoppsguy/untitled-1.jpg

[chaddurbin]

how about botn's sgc60 cobb with a piece of corner hanging out? it's not a crease, but does that count?

http://www.b-lauctions.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=6439&getauctionid=78

p.s. i have better use for my hard drive than saving tpg's mistakes, like porn.




Somebody else challenged anyone to post a scan of an SGC card with a visible crease graded 5 or higher. Again, nobody can do it. Below is a better scan of the Carrigan (PSA 5.5) with the corner crease.

I hear chatter, no scans.

[CMIZ5290]

Chad- i would think that a glued on corner would count.....

[vintagetoppsguy]

how about botn's sgc60 cobb with a piece of corner hanging out? it's not a crease, but does that count?

Sure, that counts.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=136369&highlight=nippy

I deleted the scans, but you can read the thread and get the idea.

[glynparson]

and psa does allow wrinkles up to a 6, if a crease its a definite way overgrade.its overgraded as a wrinkle but not shocking to me. just because sgc does not allow wrinkles on 5s it does not mean sgc is not more lenient in some areas. In the past it was centering now it seems to be corners (except high end where they are just as tough but mid grade can have a wide range of wear,particularly sgc 60 cards. I am way more concerned with filed and trimmed cards then i am overgraded unaltered cards and that is where I feel left down the most.

Ps many people also need to realize standards have tightened considerably in the industry since psa's inception in 1992?( i think). Around 2000 i feel standards have jumped to the know sometimes unreasonable, for 8 anyways, standards (thus the survival of many card doctors).

[Matthew H]

2 stories.

I have a PSA 4 T205 Shulte pied 42 with 4 pin holes in it. One in each corner. An SGC 1 tops and I am fine with that. It would be accuratly graded then.

About 6 yrs ago I drove to whicita ks to buy a collection of new and vintage. He produced an unopened pack of 57 topps that I had him throw in to seal the deal. I busted the pack and pulled a Clemente that was mint. I sent it to sgc and it came back a 5. I resubmitted it for review thinking there is no way it is that and they put it in a graded bag and circled the upper left corner on the back where there was a slight spider crease or what I thought was a flaw in the cardstock. I sold the card for decent money though. What got me was the dealer that bought it submitted it to PSA and it now resides in a PSA 9 slab is what he told me. So how's that right? I could have did that also but would have felt like a thief had I sold it for 9 money. So if you sleep better at night using PSA over SGC that is fine but for me I prefer consistancy and integrity. I buy the card and not the holder anyways. Took me a while to learn but it was an easy choice after I learned my cards.

You should have absolutely had that pack fresh Clemente graded a PSA 9 that's a no brainer. It's very simple. Just put in the description that you feel it should not have received the grade it did because of a spider crease, if that's what it was. Flip collectors don't care about the card, you should have allowed them the opportunity to bid.

To those who want scans of overgraded SGC cards you won't find many, but you will find countless undergraded ones, just as bad IMO, since I use neither to collect. Couple SGCs lower realized prices wih undergrades, the choice seems obvious.

[oldjudge]

PSA has the advantage in the marketplace on high grade cards in sets that are actively contested on the registry. At present, SGC's registry does not have the critical mass to lead to similar financial results. That could change as I know they are working to improve their registry program. However, my experience with the two companies has led me to firmly believe that SGC does a much better grading cards. They are more consistent, they have not good, but great customer service, and they have the best looking holders in the market. When I grade cards I use SGC.

[T206Collector]

sgc does not allow wrinkles on 5s it does not mean sgc is not more lenient in some areas.

This is really my point. Every since I've been collecting baseball cards -- now close to 30 years -- "EX" was understood to allow somewhat rounded/touched corners, but NEVER creases. That was how I was raised to think of grading and, frankly, value.

Now, it may be that PSA will allow for more creasing in 5s than SGC. And it is certainly true that SGC will allow softer corners on a SGC than PSA will allow on a 5. But, to me, that is a terrific mistake on PSA's part.

As far as scans go, I keep my scans "in the clouds" on Picassa. No hard drive space issues here. And I have close to 100 PSA 5/SGC 60 T206 cards in my collection. I frequently buy them "blind" -- i.e., buying the holder and not the cards (mea culpa) -- and can tell you for dead certain that the SGC 60s are much safer to buy blind than the PSA 5s are, particularly if you don't like creases.

This 100 card example, which has been amassed since April 2012, is EXACTLY THE SAME as my experience collecting PSA 5/SGC 60 now almost 10 years ago.

Now, it may be that PSA grades a higher volume of cards -- but how is that at all relevant when I have been buying both in equal amounts, without regard for whether its PSA or SGC. I buy them both the same.

My "vitriol" for PSA is based on customer service, grading quality, and grading consistency.

I also have no personal knowledge of "cronyism" at SGC. But the "chatter" about cronyism at TPGs is as old as the day is long. So are the anecdotes. Where is the objective evidence? I really have no opinion one way or another on whether it exists (unlike the SGC 60 T206 with a crease, where I have never seen one).

[glynparson]

:D

[toppszl1]

I can only say what I've seen, my friend has an account with PSA, we sent 102 cards to them 4/10/12, we finally received them back 2 days ago, a gentlemen called my friend the account holder and told him that there's been a serious accident the encapsulating machine damaged 6 of our cards and they're going to send them back to regrade them I about fell over, after numerous calls to them about is our cards done he gets the call about 6 cards being damaged & he wasn't sure of who's cards got damaged, in the long run nobody wins, I will "never use PSA to grade my cards ever again!

Long story short my friends cards (6) got damaged and he was compensated $200.00

My 2nd story is now I've sent 10 cards to SGC about 2 weeks ago, Earl and the gang are great,,I was scared shitless on a shipping concern, I sent 10 cards priorty mail, with insurance and delivery confirmation, my 2 prized cards a 1958 Hank Aaron card white letter and a 1960 Mickey Mantle card and 8 other cards, I bought the 2 cards at a auction and both cards are stunning and centered..

Here's what happened and here's what I liked, I recieved delivery confirmation that the box got there, I called 2 days later and my order wasn't checked in, I called, they said they didn't get the order, I claimed the box is there, I'm sweating bullets, I'm thinking I sent a box to a building or suite and now the delivery is all messed up sent to the wrong floor, after a few phone calls with immediate response my cards were there, I recieved a customer number since I was brand new and they actually post the cards so you can review them and click on a link to get the pop report all in a few seconds, the team at SGC prevailed and now I'm waiting for the results, my cards have been there for about 2 1/2 weeks now.

Long story short, I'm on the east coast PSA doesn't have my business any more and yes the holder is more attractive in the SGC holder no matter what anybody says.

[CMIZ5290]

Toppsz? So what exactly are you saying? I am just confused on the point you are trying to make.....You said "long story short" 3 times.....Why are you happy when your cards have been at SGC for almost 3 weeks, and you have still not received them?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Toppsz? So what exactly are you saying? I am just confused on the point you are trying to make.....You said "long story short" 3 times.....Why are you happy when your cards have been at SGC for almost 3 weeks, and you have still not received them?

I'm guessing he sent them in on the post-1948 grading tier (just a guess since none of this month's specials apply to the cards he submitted) which is a 20 business day turnaround. His cards have been there about 13-14 business days. That means they won't pop for another week. What's is so confusing about that? Maybe to someone that is willing to wait 2-3 months on a PSA submission can't understand that, but I understood him just fine.

[CMIZ5290]

David- no offense, but you need to get an anti-psa shot...probably will do you good. Also, you had stated SGC never, never made grading mistakes on paper loss or wrinkles.....ANY CHATTER?

[vintagetoppsguy]

David- no offense, but you need to get an anti-psa shot...probably will do you good.

Kevin, no offense taken. I just don't like PSA. If someone offers a crappy service, I take my business elsewhere. I'm funny that way.

There are many threads on the CU boards complaining about turnaround times, yet they still take the abuse over and over. I don't get it. There are also many threads complaining about the grades they receive. My solution would be to find another service. Their solution? Crack and re-submit. In other words, they think that PSA didn't get it right the first time, but they're going to pay them (and trust them) to do it again? What's the definition of insanity? To keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

No offense to you either Kevin, but I don't understand your stance with PSA. Any time an ovegraded card is shown, your answer is "mechanical error." And it's not just you, that is the common answer to PSA screw ups. I'll show this card card again. Untampered! Is this the kind of company you want to grade your cards? Come on, say it. "Mechanical error."

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x137/vintagetoppsguy/Personal/66T_Killebrew_PSA-10.jpg

[RUSH2112]

All I ever got from my short experience with PSA was misgraded cards and gouged on shipping.

Upon becoming a member of the exclusive PSA club, I also received numerous publications I never asked for or read. I even received double issues of a large T206 coffee table book which cost the company $27.00 each to ship to Canada from California.

I did have to contact SGC via email about a shipping to question Canada and received a quick reply and felt they were willing to accomodate my needs any way they could. Very professional in my opinion.

[CMIZ5290]

David- point taken. But, the bottom line is psa graded vintage cards blow sgc graded cards out of the water price wise, (and i have many of each). Can i explain it? Is it a coincidence? Why do all major auction houses prefer psa graded cards versus sgc?? Anybody that says they don't care about "resale value, and only the integrity of collecting and the hobby", please, i want to hire you! Money is money. At some point, re-sale value is important. Please stop with the sgc bullshit. They give t206s with rounded corners a grade of 5, and PSA would give it a 3.5 max

[vintagetoppsguy]

But, the bottom line is psa graded vintage cards blow sgc graded cards out of the water price wise, (and i have many of each). Can i explain it?

Kevin, I wish you could explain it because I don't see it. Maybe slightly, but not like everybody makes it out to be. I was looking on VCP today at '54 Topps Aaron rookie because there is one on the Live Auction forum (and it's the last one I need to finish my '54 set). Here are VCP prices:

PSA 4 $560
SGC 50 $565

PSA 5 $750
SGC 60 $810

PSA 6 $1163
SGC 80 $1350

PSA 7 $2045
SGC 84 $2061

This is just one card and I didn't purposely pick it to prove my point. I just happen to be looking at it today and noticed the price difference between PSA and SGC. However, I will concede that for the most part PSA cards do outsell their SGC counterparts, but again I think it is very slightly (not blow them out of the water).

However, as I stated earlier in this thread I am a buyer and not a seller. As a buyer I perfer SGC. If I was selling, I would probably go with PSA.

[CMIZ5290]

David- pre-war vintage cards! It's not even close, especially t206s!

[Wayward99]

David- point taken. But, the bottom line is psa graded vintage cards blow sgc graded cards out of the water price wise, (and i have many of each). Can i explain it? Is it a coincidence? Why do all major auction houses prefer psa graded cards versus sgc??

Please forgive me if I am wrong about this - I am admittedly still learning as I collect in the vintage market...but besides the high end T206 cards in the recent REA auction, is it me or did they disproportionately submit vintage cards on behalf of their consignors to SGC? It just seemed to me that besides the 'top top' stuff they leaned heavily to SGC.

Again, this may be just me and/or not an accurate representation of the major auction house market, but they seem to be one of the only ones that discloses who did the submitting (the house or the consignor).

[Pup6913]

You should have absolutely had that pack fresh Clemente graded a PSA 9 that's a no brainer. It's very simple. Just put in the description that you feel it should not have received the grade it did because of a spider crease, if that's what it was. Flip collectors don't care about the card, you should have allowed them the opportunity to bid.

To those who want scans of overgraded SGC cards you won't find many, but you will find countless undergraded ones, just as bad IMO, since I use neither to collect. Couple SGCs lower realized prices wih undergrades, the choice seems obvious.

But that's dishonest. I won't allow myself to put my integrity in stake for the sake of money. I would rather sell an accuratly graded card for what it's worth and if condition warrants add a bit extra on it.

I used to spend between 1-4k a month on cards and memoribelia before my kid got sick and now only very little if I sell something or do some side work for people. I always bought SGC cards and very very few PSA cards for my sets. I could have crossed the so called under graded cards to PSA holders and made a lot more when I sold them but I believe what the flip said was accurate to me so I got what they were worth and not what the flip said. Now I chase certain backs so as long as the card is valued based on condition I could care less if it's in a PRO holder.

[T206Collector]

Keep drinking the Kool Aid Paul
:D

Here's a tip -- if you wouldn't feel comfortable posting it on a thread don't send it to me in a private message. Not sure what's worse -- gossip that's intended just for me, or gossip that's intended for a wider viewing audience.

Now I am sure you were trying to make a point, and just didn't feel comfortable sharing people's names. But the only thing I care about is that SGC 60s don't have wrinkles and too many PSA 5s do. Please save your personal drama about the chronies for someone else who cares. If you want to send me scans of SGC 60s that are messed up, my email line is wide open. Still waiting for that one ...just one...scan.

[glynparson]

Do say or think whatever you must I am done trying to help.

[T206Collector]

Do say or think whatever you must I am done trying to help.

Oh, you were "trying to help"? Here I thought we were having an old fashioned disagreement and you were trying to prove you were right, while calling me a "fanboy" and a "fool" along the way.

But, i appreciate your allowing me to have an opinion. In case anyone is keeping track, that's three days now without a single scan of an SGC 60 with a wrinkle or crease.

[bobbyw8469]

In case anyone is keeping track, that's three days now without a single scan of an SGC 60 with a wrinkle or crease.

Would you like to see an SGC '4' that looks like, and graded an '8'?

Or would you prefer to see the SGC '3' that they later deemed to be trimmed??

[vintagetoppsguy]

Would you like to see an SGC '4' that looks like, and graded an '8'?

Or would you prefer to see the SGC '3' that they later deemed to be trimmed??

In other words, you don't have a scan of a card graded SGC 60 or higher with a crease or a card graded SGC 50 or higher with paper loss? That's what I'm hearing. Give us something we can see that we can all look at and agree, "Yup, SGC screwed that one up," not a story of a card you used to own or your friend owned or that you once saw at a dealer booth or anything else - give us visual proof.

[T206Collector]

In other words, you don't have a scan of a card graded SGC 60 or higher with a crease or a card graded SGC 50 or higher with paper loss? That's what I'm hearing. Give us something we can see that we can all look at and agree, "Yup, SGC screwed that one up," not a story of a card you used to own or your friend owned or that you once saw at a dealer booth or anything else - give us visual proof.

+1

[T206Collector]

Would you like to see an SGC '4' that looks like, and graded an '8'?

Or would you prefer to see the SGC '3' that they later deemed to be trimmed??

Not really helpful. Again, just want a scan of an SGC 60+ with a wrinkle or a crease. I know there must be one out there. SGC are human after all. They are not IMMORTAL GODS incapable of making mistakes.

.....or are they?!?!?!?!?!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Not really helpful. Again, just want a scan of an SGC 60+ with a wrinkle or a crease. I know there must be one out there. SGC are human after all. They are not IMMORTAL GODS incapable of making mistakes.

.....or are they?!?!?!?!?!

This situation reminds me of the CarFax commercials. We're the buyers on the dealership lot asking to see the CarFax report (SGC 60 w/crease or SGC 50 w/paper loss) and the salesman (Bobby) wants to show us everything else.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This situation reminds me of the CarFax commercials. We're the buyers on the dealership lot asking to see the CarFax report (SGC 60 w/crease or SGC 50 w/paper loss) and the salesman (Bobby) wants to show us everything else.

i disagree. Bobby's point is that SGC, like PSA, has overgraded and undergraded cards, and I would add graded cards that should have been rejected. That we don't happen to have a specific example of this within an artificially narrow category of errors doesn't negate the general proposition. Both companies make mistakes.

[T206Collector]

i disagree. Bobby's point is that SGC, like PSA, has overgraded and undergraded cards, and I would add graded cards that should have been rejected. That we don't happen to have a specific example of this within an artificially narrow category of errors doesn't negate the general proposition. Both companies make mistakes.

This is not "an artificially narrow category of errors." You say that "SGC, like PSA, has overgraded . . . cards." A lot of what "overgrading" means is subjective. It's in the eye of the beholder. PSA fans think SGC is soft on corners, for example.

But, in my view, overgrading means giving a card a grade without noticing paper loss or a crease. Where this would be "overgrading" would be at the EX level and above. We are looking for examples of this.

I do not think this is a "narrow category." Just because there are so far no examples does not mean that a category is "narrow."

[T206Collector]

Also, just to show I'm not a total shill, here's my latest pick up, courtesy of the B/S/T about 6 minutes ago. Looks to be a total beaut! (Thanks Bill!)

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ugV5LeyJZhSMf8kD-wRz6EbbPrYp6YHrRqcN_cfzkkQ?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6VfZDM9SZLU/T-3ENFYIBRI/AAAAAAAALDI/ew-pr_UUm3U/s640/Oldring_Fielding_PSA_5.jpg" height="640" width="375" /></a>

[vintagetoppsguy]

Also, just to show I'm not a total shill, here's my latest pick up, courtesy of the B/S/T

Likewise, I buy PSA cards as well. Here's one that arrived just yesterday.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1941-Play-Ball-Baseball-019-Charley-Gehringer-PSA-4-VG-EX-/00/s/MTAyM1g2MzM=/$(KGrHqJHJEME91+M56,8BPgCb58!Fw~~60_12.JPG

Of course, it didn't stay in that crappy holder very long :D

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x137/vintagetoppsguy/Post%20War%20Raw/1941PlayBall019CharlesGehringer.jpg

[JohnP0621]

I would like to start another poll.
How many people think this thread has run its course.
I get it. Some collectors like SGC better and some people like PSA Better. Some people like both ,some people hate both.Thats what makes this country great. You have a choice and you can spend your money any way you want. But lets STOP trying to sell each other on either grading company.Use or dont use either company. None of my buisness. Both companys are doing fine as we keep submitting the cards. I use PSA but could care less who else uses them. I dont work for them nor do I get any favors or discounts if I convert SGC users to PSA . So I dont. I am sure this also goes for the SGC loyalists.
Lets put this thread to rest and talk about something interesting.

Thats just my 2 cents plus $17.50 for return shipping.

Enjoy the Hobby! It should be Fun. Lets stop beating up each other for the sake of TPG COMPANYS.

John P

[T206Collector]

Given that this topic is a recurring one -- I think it would be nice if we had one place -- just this place -- to go to throw chairs at each other over grading companies.

I kinda thought that was the purpose of this poll and thread...

The last definitive fight on this topic. An epic, historic battle for virtue.

[Leon]

Given that this topic is a recurring one -- I think it would be nice if we had one place -- just this place -- to go to throw chairs at each other over grading companies.

I kinda thought that was the purpose of this poll and thread...

The last definitive fight on this topic. An epic, historic battle for virtue.


Odds are this won't be the last fight on this topic. Since it's very relevant to the hobby they don't bother me. Both companies do a decent job. The one time I spoke with Joe O (last year's National) he and I spoke about his company as well as other grading companies. He is fully aware there is competition and thinks as I do, competition is good. We also both know that each company will have their own customers as well as customers that use all of the grading companies. He really did have a good handle on this kind of debate, imo. I see no harm in hashing it out as long we we can keep it sort of professional.

[Pup6913]

Also, just to show I'm not a total shill, here's my latest pick up, courtesy of the B/S/T about 6 minutes ago. Looks to be a total beaut! (Thanks Bill!)

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ugV5LeyJZhSMf8kD-wRz6EbbPrYp6YHrRqcN_cfzkkQ?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6VfZDM9SZLU/T-3ENFYIBRI/AAAAAAAALDI/ew-pr_UUm3U/s640/Oldring_Fielding_PSA_5.jpg" height="640" width="375" /></a>

Paul I think you got screwed on that PSA card. I do believe there there is a crease right along his rear end:D

[T206Collector]

Paul I think you got screwed on that PSA card. I do believe there there is a crease right along his rear end:D

Like I said, this happens all the time in PSA 5s. SGC has never graded one of these higher than a 40....


;)

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I don't have enough experience with SGC to make an assessment either way. I've had ten years of experience with PSA and in the 4 days since this poll was started I really couldn't think of a good thing to say about them.

In fact, probably the greatest regret in my life is getting my vast collection graded by PSA and being involved in the PSA Registry, which in the final analysis turned out to be nothing short of a horrific nightmare.

Based on my ten years of dealing with PSA, I have absolutely no confidence in PSA's ability to detect doctored cards and by all appearances and personal encounters by myself and other trusted friends, PSA doesn't seem to want to address their problems. I have absolutely no respect for PSA's management.

There really needs to be an independent organization that holds PSA and all other grading companies accountable for their business practices. In short, someone needs to grade the grading companies and make a thorough assessment of how competent (or incompetent) they really are.

[Matthew H]

I agree Dan, your work on detecting doctored cards is certainly the best.

One cool thing about collecting n172, for me, is the amount of raw cards in the hobby. In two months of shopping, only two of the cards I bought were graded, an SGC Roger Conner, now raw, and a PSA deasley, also now raw as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan, how do you really feel? :D