Marino Cuts (Operation Bullpen)

[mschwade]

I'm in the middle of reading Operation Bullpen for the first time, and read the pricelist of "Vintage Cuts" that Greg had. One of those listed was Tony Lazzeri $275. Does anybody have an example of this cut or any other Marino cuts that they wouldn't mind posting scans?

Thanks,
Matt

[earlywynnfan]

I'd say the one thing that has stuck with me forever from that book is the subject of "cuts." They talked about how there really was no such thing as "cuts" before Marino started forging them. I know this isn't 100% true, but, much like thinking about Jaws when I dip my toes in Lake Erie, I cannot not think about it when I see an expensive cut.

Ken

[David Atkatz]

Sounds like a job for Shelly. He's always looking for ways to improve the hobby.
Posting examples of less-well-known Marino forgeries sounds like a good way to me.

(Gee... I hope this doesn't start another thread.)

[jgmp123]

I'd say the one thing that has stuck with me forever from that book is the subject of "cuts." They talked about how there really was no such thing as "cuts" before Marino started forging them. I know this isn't 100% true, but, much like thinking about Jaws when I dip my toes in Lake Erie, I cannot not think about it when I see an expensive cut.

Ken

+1...

Ken,

I have the same feelings about cuts and anything signed by Mantle....fantastic book.

[RichardSimon]

I'd say the one thing that has stuck with me forever from that book is the subject of "cuts." They talked about how there really was no such thing as "cuts" before Marino started forging them. I know this isn't 100% true, but, much like thinking about Jaws when I dip my toes in Lake Erie, I cannot not think about it when I see an expensive cut.

Ken

That statement is 100% wrong.
Ron Dross, the first big time forger, and Dave Zimmerman, ex NY Mets batboy, both specialized in cuts. I saw them sell LARGE quantities of cuts over the years.
Only good thing I can say now is that both of them stole a lot of money but both are now 6 feet underground.

[David Atkatz]

Of course they are.
If they weren't, you would never state their names while calling them forgers.

[mschwade]

+1...

Ken,

I have the same feelings about cuts and anything signed by Mantle....fantastic book.

+1 on the Mantle comment.

[earlywynnfan]

Of course they are.
If they weren't, you would never state their names while calling them forgers.

You do an awesome job of calling out others, so how about this: when you finally respond to the Frank Prisco or whatever his name was situation -- you know, the one where you were your typical caustic self, then got some lawyer letter, then we never heard from you again -- and maybe Richard will respond to you.

Or, a second alternative: post something useful sometime! I see two posts here, both meant to inflame, neither useful in any othe way.

Ken

[travrosty]

I had always hoped the fbi would have a webpage somewhere where they posted all the examples of the operation bullpen autographs they had, so people could be informed about them. I don't see a downside to this.

[RichardSimon]

Thanks for calling him out Ken, but I won't respond to him.
Why bother?

[earlywynnfan]

I had always hoped the fbi would have a webpage somewhere where they posted all the examples of the operation bullpen autographs they had, so people could be informed about them. I don't see a downside to this.

I second that suggestion!

Ken

[mschwade]

I second that suggestion!

Ken

Has anyone kept any pics of Marino's? Maybe that would be a good starting point for someone or a team of people to start putting something together.

[ibuysportsephemera]

you do an awesome job of calling out others, so how about this: When you finally respond to the frank prisco or whatever his name was situation -- you know, the one where you were your typical caustic self, then got some lawyer letter, then we never heard from you again -- and maybe richard will respond to you.

Or, a second alternative: Post something useful sometime! I see two posts here, both meant to inflame, neither useful in any othe way.

Ken

+1 really like

[thetruthisoutthere]

You do an awesome job of calling out others, so how about this: when you finally respond to the Frank Prisco or whatever his name was situation -- you know, the one where you were your typical caustic self, then got some lawyer letter, then we never heard from you again -- and maybe Richard will respond to you.

Or, a second alternative: post something useful sometime! I see two posts here, both meant to inflame, neither useful in any othe way.

Ken

Judging by your comment, Ken, I'm thinking that Mr. Atkatz is taking shots at Richard again, though I refuse to read what he writes as I continue to have him on block.

It's sad that Mr. Atkatz, allegedly a grown man, will do anything to get attention. Why make a comment under such an informative autograph thread in an attempt to bait Richard into writing a retaliatory comment, which he would have every right to do. Then it looks like Richard is inflaming this thread. But people should see Atkatz for what he really is: a petty agitator.

Maybe you want take a shot at me, Mr. Atkatz. Go ahead, because I won't turn the other cheek. I will inflame this thread. The difference between you and me, Mr. Atkatz, is that you're desperate for people to pay attention to you, whereas I don't need to create that desperation like you do.

My knees have never buckled despite the numerous threats I've received over the years. Your knees buckled during the Prisco thread, didn't they, Mr. Atkatz? One legal threat to you and you turn into a clam. Why would anyone have been surprised then?

[Wymers Auction]

Does anyone have examples of these cuts to help this guy?

[RichardSimon]

I have over 500 pictures of bad items on my computer that were sent to me to authenticate but I never cataloged them by who the forger might be.
Sorry I cannot help that request out.

[Mr. Zipper]

I purchased this ball from B&J Collectibles in the 90s. They were a Marino distributor. These are pretty deceptive fakes and I think it's a safe bet they were done by Marino or one of the other forgers associated with the ring. (Feller is the weak link.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/zipper68/Autographs/NHKKoufax.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/zipper68/Autographs/NHKFeller.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/zipper68/Autographs/NHKRyan.jpg

[7nohitter]

Wow...you're telling me that Ryan is a fake? As I'm sitting here I'm comparing it to a ball I got straight form the Ryan foundation...they look exactly the same.

Scary.

[RichardSimon]

The man had occasional moments of artwork that were better then you would think.
I recall seeing his items in MAJOR auction SCD ads many years ago, and I don't mean CC.

[JimStinson]

I'm trying to do this from memory, there was another well known autograph guy there and if he wants to add to this he can. But I remember back when I was an autograph consultant for PSA , before their division was even launched and I remember being shown signed stuff that was supposed to be part of the "Bull pen" thing that at that time they were trying to nail down. The Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, Sandy Koufax, Joe DiMaggio's were especially well executed. In fact most of their modern day stuff was pretty darn good. Their weakness seemed to be the easy guys like Feller, Killebrew, Reggie but frankly those were pretty close too. Where they REALLY dropped the ball was on the older vintage stuff , which was not well done at all , maybe thats because I'm more experienced in that area or maybe they were weaker I don;t know its been a long time. Hope this helps
____________________________________________
Sign up for my Mailing list Vintage Autographs for sale Daily, stinsonsports.com

[Mr. Zipper]

Wow...you're telling me that Ryan is a fake? As I'm sitting here I'm comparing it to a ball I got straight form the Ryan foundation...they look exactly the same.

Scary.

It fooled me for years. Certainly a cut above the sloppy drek cartoonish Florida fakes. But the Feller kept nagging me and I posted it here about a year ago. Some folks thought they were good, but the eventual consensus was they were fakes. Look at the similarity in the top of the R in Ryan and the top of the B in Bob.

If the Feller was better, it'd probably still be fooling me. I compare the Koufax to known authentic exemplars and I still cant find a fatal flaw.

[Fuddjcal]

It fooled me for years. Certainly a cut above the sloppy drek cartoonish Florida fakes. But the Feller kept nagging me and I posted it here about a year ago. Some folks thought they were good, but the eventual consensus was they were fakes. Look at the similarity in the top of the R in Ryan and the top of the B in Bob.

If the Feller was better, it'd probably still be fooling me. I compare the Koufax to known authentic exemplars and I still cant find a fatal flaw.

FYI,

The fatal flaw for me in the Koufax is at the beginning of Sandy....With an authentic Koufax, The bottom "tail of the S" does not point upward like the forgery shown here.

It is very easy to see this is a Koufax forgery at first glance. Basically a CSC, Birdsick, Stat, Morales GAI (Baker) special....

[David Atkatz]

Come on. Do you believe the man who penned these beauties (Greg Marino) was actually capable of fooling an educated collector?
There's no way that Ryan above is a Marino creation.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/Ruthmarino.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/lincolnmarino.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/beatlesmarino.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/babe-ruth-ball-closeup.jpg

[Mr. Zipper]

Come on. Do you believe the man who penned these beauties (Greg Marino) was actually capable of fooling an educated collector?
There's no way that Ryan above is a Marino creation.]

Are you saying its not a forgery or someone better than Marino forged it?

[David Atkatz]

I'm no expert on Ryan--I couldn't spot a lousy forgery.
But if that ball is forged--the experts here say it is an excellent forgery, and I trust them--then someone better than Marino is the culprit.

[RichardSimon]

It fooled me for years. Certainly a cut above the sloppy drek cartoonish Florida fakes. But the Feller kept nagging me and I posted it here about a year ago. Some folks thought they were good, but the eventual consensus was they were fakes. Look at the similarity in the top of the R in Ryan and the top of the B in Bob.

If the Feller was better, it'd probably still be fooling me. I compare the Koufax to known authentic exemplars and I still cant find a fatal flaw.


Go to the thread "lets see pics from signings", I have a Koufax posted there.
Look at the loop on the S. The forgers usually screw up there.

[JimStinson]

Master counterfeiters (I'm told) Can "freehand" twenty dollar bills. So how difficult is it for them to forge a Lou Gehrig or Babe Ruth ? What an autograph "looks Like" is certainly important BUT there are other factors in play when trying to determine authenticity. Most seasoned dealers (and collectors) know this.

[ss]

Quote/"It fooled me for years. Certainly a cut above the sloppy drek cartoonish Florida fakes. But the Feller kept nagging me and I posted it here about a year ago. Some folks thought they were good, but the eventual consensus was they were fakes. Look at the similarity in the top of the R in Ryan and the top of the B in Bob."

The entire "B" and "R" are the same. Also, look at the "o" in Bob and the "a" in Sandy, they are almost identical.

[Mr. Zipper]

This thread inspired me to re-read Operation Bullpen and something just struck me. In the photos section there is a Marino signed "Five Presidents" photo. This is the pose taken at the Nixon Library of the 5 living presidents at the time (Nixon through Bush 41)

However, the signature over George HW Bush 41 is the signature of George W Bush (the future 43)!!! :eek:

The book mentions Greg Marino assembled a "black book" of exemplars. Obviously he was using the wrong Bush template.

[David Atkatz]

He wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

[travrosty]

Hey, I happen to know Kevin Nelson, who wrote the book Operation Bullpen. He doesn't belong to the forum but he did see this thread and he sent me this note to post. It says:

"Hey everyone, I happened to see your thread on Greg Marino cuts and I wanted to add my two cents. The person who said the quote about how "there really were no cuts" before Bray and Marino was Phil Halpern, the United States District Attorney in the case who was part of the FBI investigation. This is, to be sure, an exaggeration on Halpern's part, but there is absolutely no question that the Bray-Marino ring took cuts to a whole new level, producing tens of thousands of them and far exceeding anyone else in the business.

Marino, in his prime, was producing dozens of cuts every day, when he did cuts, and the ring was in full-time operation for years. In fact he told me that he produced more than a million forgeries in his career, including cuts and other types of forgeries. All best, Kevin Nelson"

[RichardSimon]

Yes the Marino ring took cuts to a new level volume wise but Dross and Zimmerman forged a huge amount of autographs, mostly on cuts.
I can still remember the day when I was set up at a baseball card show and a young couple came to my table, envelope in hand. They asked if I buy autographs. When I said yes they dumped the contents of the envelope on my table. There were probably about 50 cuts. All forgeries. When I asked them who they bought them from they told me Ron Dross. I had to tell them that everything was forged. They wanted to sell these autographs, which he had been collecting for some time, to finance their wedding. When I had to give them the bad news they were crestfallen. They proceeded to another table, manned by Richard Galasso, and he gave them the same news I did.
Dross eventually graduated to the infamous huge scam involving B&W HOF plaks, balls and photos.
He probably milked that scam for about $100K.
Nobody ever prosecuted them so perhaps the US Atty was not aware of the presence of these two. But they were full time forgers.

[mschwade]

Hey, I happen to know Kevin Nelson, who wrote the book Operation Bullpen. He doesn't belong to the forum but he did see this thread and he sent me this note to post. It says:

"Hey everyone, I happened to see your thread on Greg Marino cuts and I wanted to add my two cents. The person who said the quote about how "there really were no cuts" before Bray and Marino was Phil Halpern, the United States District Attorney in the case who was part of the FBI investigation. This is, to be sure, an exaggeration on Halpern's part, but there is absolutely no question that the Bray-Marino ring took cuts to a whole new level, producing tens of thousands of them and far exceeding anyone else in the business.

Marino, in his prime, was producing dozens of cuts every day, when he did cuts, and the ring was in full-time operation for years. In fact he told me that he produced more than a million forgeries in his career, including cuts and other types of forgeries. All best, Kevin Nelson"

Did Mr. Nelson get pics/scans of more forgeries during his research than what appeared in his book?

[travrosty]

http://www.operationbullpen.com/gallery1.html

the galleries on the webpage show a few more.

[mschwade]

http://www.operationbullpen.com/gallery1.html

the galleries on the webpage show a few more.

Thanks Travis

[mschwade]

Just finished Operation Bullpen yesterday at the City Fireworks while we waited. Great book! Travis, please pass on to Kevin that I thought this was a fantastic read and I commend him for all the research!

[travrosty]

will do!


it's done, he said thanks, and he wants to use your endorsement on his web blog, is it alright?

[mschwade]

will do!


it's done, he said thanks, and he wants to use your endorsement on his web blog, is it alright?

Absolutely!!