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View Full Version : 1931 Babe Ruth Autograph Ball--Traced Over--JSA


Donscards
06-15-2012, 06:57 PM
I have a 1931-34 Official American League Baseball (Harridge) Authentic Signed Babe Ruth Ball----it has been enhanced (traced over) by someone and has been authenticated by JSA--as traced over but it was a geniune Babe Ruth signature at one time---check scans---any idea on value---thanks, Don

RichardSimon
06-15-2012, 07:56 PM
Considering it is traced over and in terrible condition grab the first person who might offer you anything close to $200.

thetruthisoutthere
06-15-2012, 07:59 PM
Looks deformed. What a shame.

baseball tourist
06-15-2012, 08:00 PM
I'd pay $200

drc
06-15-2012, 09:42 PM
$200.01

Richard's the resident expert, but $200 sounds ridiculously low. He let his personal sentiments get the best of him.

Donscards
06-15-2012, 10:07 PM
I would think $200 is too low I paid more and the person that sold it to me paid JSA $150 to certify the ball. Don----I have 3 private requests to sell the ball but they didnt make offers

travrosty
06-16-2012, 01:36 AM
so the first 150 goes back to pay for the authentication. there was nothing there to authenticate. how authentication is possible when ink is covering it up?

i guess there is no downside to calling it good. who's gonna say its NOT a ruth sig when no one can see it? which begs the question - just what is the allure to this ball, what makes it worth anything? I would think the heavy trace over would render it trivial.

if just the ruth sig were removed from this ball, would it look any different?

just a few points to ponder.

drc
06-16-2012, 02:36 AM
I can't see it, but I can sense it. And when I was a child, the black cook said I had a gift.

mcgwirecom
06-16-2012, 05:12 AM
I traced over it some more...

Donscards
06-16-2012, 06:00 AM
Guys I didnt expect to take a pounding here---I am not saying this is a $5000 ball---I am thinking $500-800 range---I know it is traced, but at one time Babe did touch and sign the ball---I scanned the Coa for u to read--I feel this ball gives some collectors a chance to own a Babe Ball for alot less than normal---Somewhere along the line, a person did trace over it--I was just looking for a little help as to price the ball fairly. thanks, Don

daves_resale_shop
06-16-2012, 06:29 AM
is the JSA cert # b43424?

earlywynnfan
06-16-2012, 08:25 AM
Looks like the cert isn't in the system!

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

RichardSimon
06-16-2012, 08:37 AM
On things like this ball it is always in the eye of the beholder.
Tracing and a horrible looking baseball,,, well it is not something I would even want to offer to my customers and as a one off I would never buy it.
Just my opinion here, everyone has one.
IMO traced over autographs are not authentic any longer and I never would sell one, that is why I value it so minimally.

RichardSimon
06-16-2012, 08:58 AM
The COA that is pictured is not in the JSA database, good catch David and Ken.
And if you read the COA it mentions clubhouse signature version(s) and name by name examination of the ball.
What does that mean?
What gives here?
And nice job Randy :D.
I did not know you had those skills, after all these years you learn something new about a person :D.

esd10
06-16-2012, 09:00 AM
i could see it fetching $500 to $1000 to some collector

thetruthisoutthere
06-16-2012, 09:34 AM
Here is something I noticed. Look at the date (Oct. 1, 2007) on the COA. Then, if you notice, there is a date-stamp (7/21/2007) under the photograph of the ball on the JSA LOA. Can anyone explain that?

Here is a screen-shot of the JSA cert check on that number:

66317

66319

Deertick
06-16-2012, 09:52 AM
I know it is traced, but at one time Babe did touch and sign the ball

I may be confused, but.... Doesn't "clubhouse signature" and "non-authentic" mean that Ruth never touched the ball? (If the LOA is not a photoshopped monstosity, of course.)

RichardSimon
06-16-2012, 10:15 AM
There is something rotten here and I don't think it is JSA.
The cert not in the system, the date of the photo and the COA don't match and the wording of the COA definitely indicates a team ball with multiple autographs.
The COA also says the Ruth was signed in black and then traced over with blue. It sure looks black to me in the pictures that Don has put up.
All this adds up to something really rotten here.
Sure smells like a photoshopped COA done by a dope.
Maybe one as stupid as the guy who tried to sell me a bogus Ruth autograph with a COA from Scoreboard (true story).
Don, who did you get this ball from?

mcgwirecom
06-16-2012, 10:28 AM
Does JSA use the paper with his watermark? Hold it up to the light and see if it has his watermark.

RichardSimon
06-16-2012, 11:32 AM
I may be confused, but.... Doesn't "clubhouse signature" and "non-authentic" mean that Ruth never touched the ball? (If the LOA is not a photoshopped monstosity, of course.)

We are all confused on this one Jim, don't feel like you are alone :).

murphusa
06-16-2012, 12:06 PM
take a look at Hunt Auctions All Star game auction they have about 5 or 6 traced over balls

RichardSimon
06-16-2012, 12:14 PM
I am well aware that the TPA influence about traced over balls has spread.
I still have my opinion and that won't change.
I still have trouble figuring out how they justify authenticating a traced over ball and I have trouble figuring out why people buy them.
But I go back to my oft repeated sentiment: PT Barnum is alive and well.

travrosty
06-16-2012, 12:23 PM
some people think it is worth more and some less, some appreciate the fact that the babe touched the ball and signed it once, some don't because the sig is traced over. but that is what happens in the hobby. you just have to find the first group and maybe someone will pay the 500-800. it's up to them.

Mr. Zipper
06-16-2012, 12:33 PM
Does JSA use the paper with his watermark? Hold it up to the light and see if it has his watermark.

JSA LOA should have a watermark in the form of Spence's signature and the notary stamp should be embossed.

Donscards
06-16-2012, 01:07 PM
Guys I am confused as all of you on this baseball----What I can tell you is this Ball came into our shop when Jimmy Spence was having a Authentication day at the shop---He looked at the ball for 1/2 hour and did authenticate it---why the cert is not in his data base I dont know---I would have to talk to him---I will see him at the National----there are a few other names on the ball(two being the owner's mother and grandparents along with the State----also some other writing on a panel which I cant read.---why Jimmy mentioned clubhouse, I dont know---but he did feel Babe signed the ball and then it was traced over (maybe why he mentioned clubhouse)----The coa is good and everything is legit----again I will talk to Jimmy on it for a update---it was done like 5 years ago and the fellow came into the shop this week and sold it to me.---We had a authentication last sat again with JSA but the ball came in later in the week.---I will put a price on the ball at $500 and we can go from there.---If it doesnt sell, I will have it at the National if anyone cares to look at it. I know it isnt a topnotch ball and I am not trying to sell it at top dollar. I also would prefer a signed Babe ball that isnt traced over but this is how the ball is. low grade etc. I hope I helped a little here. thanks, Don

RichardSimon
06-16-2012, 01:20 PM
Jimmy uses the term clubhouse signatures for a very specific reason. The COA seems to be for a ball with clubhouse signatures,,, this gets weirder by the minute.
I am spending way too much time on the computer :D:D,,, on my way out for a while, it is a beautiful day in NYC.
I need a vacation,, (soon, I will be on one) :)

David Atkatz
06-16-2012, 01:23 PM
The letter mentions "clubhouse signatures" because JSA uses one boilerplate form letter for everything they authenticate, whether it is appropriate to the item or not.
You might think that for your $150 fee JSA would have a few template letters to choose from, but you'd be wrong.

drc
06-16-2012, 01:24 PM
The JSA LOAs I've seen have his watermark in the paper. Including the auction house LOAs.

Wymers Auction
06-18-2012, 04:51 AM
Looking at the connection between the first b and a and the large loop in the second b does anyone think it is real anyway? Even traced over there should not be so big of a loop on that b right? I do not understand authenticating traced overs the original could have been traced on the ball in pencil and then gone over.

JimStinson
06-18-2012, 09:52 AM
Forgive me for chiming in on what may be a controversial subject but in my opinion a "trace over" has no value. Mainly because of the question "What is being traced over ?" most of the time its an actual autograph that has faded badly, but once the traceover is applied who knows? I have examined many baseballs especially Babe Ruth on which someone way back when just had drawn Ruth's signature on a baseball and presented it as a gift. Back in the 1930's and 1940's , the ball itself would have had more value than the autograph, so was not a malacious act. The family then kept the baseball for years thinking it was real and it never was. Also many Mrs Babe Ruth signed baseballs , when she was signing for him would appear real if traced over. So what makes a traceover worthless is you never would know what was being traced over if anything. There may be a market for them I don;t know so if someone somewhere is willing to buy one, a traceover would have value but in my office a traceover is always filed in the wastebasket
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mr2686
06-18-2012, 10:07 AM
Forgive me for chiming in on what may be a controversial subject but in my opinion a "trace over" has no value. Mainly because of the question "What is being traced over ?" most of the time its an actual autograph that has faded badly, but once the traceover is applied who knows? I have examined many baseballs especially Babe Ruth on which someone way back when just had drawn Ruth's signature on a baseball and presented it as a gift. Back in the 1930's and 1940's , the ball itself would have had more value than the autograph, so was not a malacious act. The family then kept the baseball for years thinking it was real and it never was. Also many Mrs Babe Ruth signed baseballs , when she was signing for him would appear real if traced over. So what makes a traceover worthless is you never would know what was being traced over if anything. There may be a market for them I don;t know so if someone somewhere is willing to buy one, a traceover would have value but in my office a traceover is always filed in the wastebasket
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