T213 (1910 COUPON) Major Leaguers & imagine if Joe Jackson was in this set

[tedzan]

My research indicates the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON set were printed circa Spring 1910 during the 350 Series press runs of T206 set. They were printed
on thinner cardboard stock since these premiums were not intended as "stiffiners" to be inserted in cigarette packs. The "COUPON" brand was ATC's newly
marketed cigarette that was sold in large-lot boxes. I've never seen (or heard of) a circa 1910 "COUPON" cigarette pack. Perhaps Jon Canfield can enlighten
us on this.

This post focuses on the 48-Major Leaguer's in this set, since these subjects provide us an insight into the printed sheet format of the T206 set. Furthermore,
the six "Super-Prints" are included in this group. Was this American Lithographic's early 350 series printing of these extensively printed subjects ?

The 20 - Southern Leaguer's in this set will be covered in a subsequent post.

Six Super-Prints

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/COUPONcobbeversmatty50x.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/COUPONchancechasechase50x.jpg



1910 COUPON Major Leaguers (48 subjects)

Becker .............................................. Dubuc .............................................. Knabe ............................................. Myers (fielding)
Bender (trees) .................................... Dunn (Brooklyn) ................................. LaPorte ........................................... Paskert
Byrne ................................................ Engle ............................................... Lennox ............................................ Rhoades (hands at chest)
Campbell ............................................ Evers (bat-Chicago)............................ Marquard (portrait) ............................ Rossman
Chance (yellow portrait) ....................... Fletcher ........................................... Mathewson (dark cap) ........................ Schmidt (portrait)
Charles .............................................. Hartsel ............................................. Marshall ........................................... Starr
Chase (blue portrait) ............................ Hoffman (St Louis) ............................. McBride ............................................ Street (portrait)
Chase (dark cap) ................................. Howell (portrait) ................................ McElveen .......................................... Summers
Cobb (red portrait) ............................... Huggins (portrait) .............................. McIntyre (Detroit) .............................. Sweeney (Boston)
Cree .................................................. Huggins (hands/mouth) ....................... Mitchell (Cincinnati) ............................ Thomas
Donovan (throwing) .............................. Hunter ............................................. Mowery ............................................ Willett
Doolan (fielding) ................................... Killian (portrait) ................................. Myers (bat) ....................................... Wilson

These cards may have been Single-Printed on a 48-card sheet, or Double-Printed (96-card sheet). In any event their backs have the same stylistic design
common to the backs of the T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY (A), BROAD LEAF (B), CYCLE (C) and DRUM (D) cards. And, with the exception of Byrne, Mowery and
Rossman (who were involved in trades)...... these 45 subjects are also found with the T206's A-B-C backs. However, finding these subjects with the DRUM
back presents a real challenge. To date, only 31 of these subjects have been confirmed with the DRUM back.


.............. A ............................. B ............................. C ............................. D
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/babblcychaseblue.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T206bkDRUMx25.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T213x1blueCHASEx25b.jpg
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/aabblcychaseblue.jpg.http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/blankBlueCHASE.jpg.http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T213x1blueCHASE25x.jpg



Hey guys......this thread is not intended to try and persuade anyone that this COUPON set should be re-classified as another extension of the T206 set.
We have mulled over that discussion enough over the years on this forum. Anyhow, additional inputs or opinions are appreciated.


Incidently, I'm still looking for the blue Chase / DRUM card to complete my "Quintuplicate" sub-set. I really appreciate any help in finding this T206.

Thanks,

TED Z

[atx840]

Nice thread. The 34 player per sheet, two rows of 17, with each card having multiple stacked vertically could be related to why only 68 Type 1 were printed. Possibly 2 sheets of 34 T206 cards were selected.

I faked a Chase for you. :)

http://i.imgur.com/L6ADj.jpg

[E93]

delete

[tedzan]

In their 350 Series press runs, American Litho. (ALC) printed 48 - Southern Leaguers (OLD MILL or PIEDMONT backs). From this group of 48 SL cards, 20
represent the Southern Association players. ALC printed these 20 with the COUPON back and issued them with the 48 - Major Leaguer cards in this set.


Featured here is Ted Breitenstein....who in his 1st official Major League start, pitched a No-Hitter on Oct 4th 1891 with St Louis (American Association).
It was a near "Perfect" game, since he faced only 27 batters. He allowed one Walk, which was erased by a Pick-Off play.

Then, approx. 8 years later (Aug 15th 1909), while pitching for the New Orleans Pelicans, Ted pitched another No-Hitter (vs Montgomery).

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/TedbreitensteinTchop50x.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/TedbreitensteinTchop50xb.jpg


Southern Association (20 subjects)

Bay. ............... Nashville
Bernhard ......... Nashville
Breitenstein ..... New Orleans
Carey ............. Memphis
Cranston ......... Memphis
Ellam .............. Nashville
Fritz ............... New Orleans
Greminger ........ Montgomery
Hart ............... Montgomery
Hart ............... Little Rock
Hickman .......... Mobile
Jordan ............ Atlanta
Lentz .............. Little Rock
Molesworth ...... Birmingham
Perdue ............ Nashville
Persons ........... Montgomery
Reagan ........... New Orlean
Rockenfeld ...... New Orleans
Smith. ............ Atlanta
Thornton ......... Mobile


OK guys, consider this........
In the Spring of 1910, the Philadelphia A's assigned Shoeless Joe Jackson to the Southern Association. Joe played for the New Orleans Pelicans for a good
part of the 1910 season. Imagine if ALC had included Shoeless Joe in this group of COUPON cards........WOW ! :)


TED Z

[g_vezina_c55]

Nice thread again mr Zanidakis

Thanks to share your knowledge.

[Ronnie73]

Ted, I always enjoy reading your posts. Theres so much mystery with vintage cards and thats what I like about them and your theories keep me thinking. By the way, I'm looking for a blue portrait Chase with a Drum back too so if you find two of them, keep me in mind:)

[esd10]

forgive my ignorance but what is the super prints?

[tedzan]

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/COUPONcobbeversmatty50x.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/COUPONchancechasechase50x.jpg

These 6 subjects are referred to as the Super-Prints. They were initially printed in the T206 350-only series. Subsequently, these 6 guys were printed with
backs of the 460-only series.

The Super-Prints were printed with at least 25 different T-backs across the T206, T213, T214, and T215 issues.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Nice thread. The 34 player per sheet, two rows of 17, with each card having multiple stacked vertically could be related to why only 68 Type 1 were printed. Possibly 2 sheets of 34 T206 cards were selected.

I faked a Chase for you. :)




Chris


Sorry to say, but your "34 thinking" is "flawed". First of all, American Litho. (ALC) did not intermix the Major Leaguers with the Southern Leaguers on their printed sheets.
As I've noted in my 1st post in this thread, ALC simply took an pre-printed sheet of 48 - Major Leaguers and printed the "COUPON" backs onto it. Additionally, from their
pre-printed sheets of the 48 Southern Leaguers they printed the "COUPON" backs and issued the 20 - Southern Association cards.


Furthermore..the 34 subjects that are found with PIEDMONT 150, SWEET CAP 150 (Factory 25, Factory 30, Factory 649-overprint), brown HINDU, SOVEREIGN 150, etc.
were printed on a 36-card sheet. Two Double-Prints (most likely Mathewson-white cap and Powers) filled out this 36-card sheet.

The "magic number" in the T206 printing process is "6". Just look at the various series and the number of subjects that comprise each of them.....the factor of 6 is the
common denominator. Incidently, the size of the lithographic printing presses used by ALC to print the T206's accomodated 12 cards across a row. Sheets containing up
to 96 cards were printed.

Chris......check out my recent thread on this subject........

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151780


TED Z

[tedzan]

Ted, I always enjoy reading your posts. Theres so much mystery with vintage cards and thats what I like about them and your theories keep me thinking. By the way, I'm looking for a blue portrait Chase with a Drum back too so if you find two of them, keep me in mind:)


Ron

I think you will probably find Mr. Chase with a DRUM back before I do.

Thanks for your kind words.


TED Z

[tedzan]

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/ajoejacksonneworleans.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/1910couponback.jpg


Joe Jackson played 118 games for Savannah of the South Atlantic League in 1909 and led the League in batting....BA = .358
The following year, Shoeless Joe batted .354 for the New Orleans Pelicans, and helped them win the 1910 Southern Association pennant.

Imagine if American Lithographic (ALC) had included Shoeless Joe in the Southern League group of these rare COUPON cards. Would that
be a "big $$$$$" card....or what ?

My fantasy here is not such a wildly bizarre thought....after all guys, ALC printed Shoeless Joe in their OLD MILL (T210-Southern Assoc.)
series of cards.


TED Z

[g_vezina_c55]

Do you know why Jackson was not included in this set or in the t206 regular set

[Rob D.]

Do you know why Jackson was not included in this set or in the t206 regular set

You'll likely find this interesting. An example of solid research:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125317&highlight=redux

[g_vezina_c55]

You'll likely find this interesting. An example of solid research:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125317&highlight=redux

Thx I will read it

[tedzan]

Do you know why Jackson was not included in this set or in the t206 regular set


Nelson

During the 1908 season, Connie Mack closely followed Joe Jackson's performance at Greenville (Carolina Association); and, was impressed with Joe's all-
around game. Connie Mack purchased Joe from Greenville (Carolina Association) for $1,000 on July 30, 1908. Connie Mack told Joe to report to the Phila-
delphia A's at the end of the 1908 Carolina Association season. Joe played in 23 games for the A's in Aug-Sept 1908. Joe Jax's Major League debut was
on August 25, 1908. **
Joe Jax started the 1909 season with the A's, but was sent down to Savannah in May after only 18 games with the A's. **


The American Caramel set (E90-1) was printed & issued late in 1908. Joe Jax was included in an early series of the E90-1 set (a dozen A's players were
included in this series).

So, the big question that mystifies us to this day....why wasn't Joe Jax in the T206 (1909-1911), or T205 (1911), or T201 (1911), or T202 (1912), etc. ?

Especially the T202....since he batted .408 in a 147 games with Cleveland in 1911. That kind of performance certainly warrants his picture on a BB card.

Well.....there are some who say that Joe is pictured on the centerfold of this T202. Although the backdrop is certainly Cleveland's ballpark, I'm somewhat
skeptical that this is Joe sliding in. Nevertheless, I'm saving this card for when Joe becomes a HOFer and then I will cash in :)


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/t202tannehillxlord.jpg



** Reference....Connie Mack and the Early Years of Baseball (by Norman Macht)


TED Z

[usernamealreadytaken]

Ted. I am confused. Of all of the known 1910 Coupons, all depict T206 images (in fact you have detailed how they follow the T206 series scheme). So I am not sure how there could ever be a "new" 1910 Coupon image that would not also have been on a T206. Isn't the more appropriate thread title "T206 . . . imagine if Joe Jackson was in this set."?

In fact, if there was a 1910 Coupon Joe Jackson (but not a Joe Jackson T206) there could be no argument that T213-1 are in fact another T206 back (as I believe they are).

[tedzan]

Hi Chris

Thanx for an excellent question. Let's see if I can "un-confuse" you with the following......

Initially for the T206 issue, American Litho. (ALC) printed 34 (150 Series) Southern Leaguers which included 16 - Southern Association (SA) subjects.
Subsequently, ALC then printed the entire 48 - Southern Leaguers (350 series), and added 4 more SA guys.....Hart (Little Rock), Hart (Montgomery),
Lentz & Rockenfeld).

So, in the printing of the T206's, with respect to the SA guys, there were 2 phases. Now consider a 3rd addition.....the printing of the 1910 COUPON
cards were circa Spring (or Summer) of 1910. Concurrently, ALC was printing the T210 (OLD MILL) cards. The printing plate for the T210 image of Joe
Jackson (New Orleans) was most likely designed and ready then.

So, with Shoeless Joe having a great season (BA = .358) in 1909 playing for Savannah and tearing-up the SA with his hitting in 1910 (at a .354 clip)....
ALC could have added a Shoeless Joe card to this COUPON set and forever rendered this set a very unique issue in the hobby.

I know, this is wishful thinking....but, there are times my imagination goes wild.


Best regards,

TED Z

[usernamealreadytaken]

Thanks Ted.

I think you and I agree with the following:

1.) T206s were produced in a remarkably complex and precise manner (as it relates to subjects/series/issues/front-back combinations), and

2.) T213-1s should be properly classified as a T206 back.


Any idea that there could have existed a 1910 Coupon subject who is not also a T206 subject upsets both of the notions above - it would not conform to the parallels between the T206 and T213-1, and therefore, would put the nail in the coffin as to the argument that 213-1s are actually T206s. As it stands now, the fact that there is not a 1910 Coupon Jackson (despite his popularity) supports the argument.


That said, I understand where you are coming from - IF Joe Jackson happened to appear on a T206 and/or T213-1, it would be an incredibly desirable card (analogous to the idea of a 1914/15 Cracker Jack Babe Ruth).

[g_vezina_c55]

Sorry for my noob question but why the coupon back is not considered as a t206 back and t206 card

[Leon]

Sorry for my noob question but why the coupon back is not considered as a t206 back and t206 card

Most collectors of pre-war cards go by the numbering in Jefferson Burdick's, Card Collectors Catalog (1946,1953,1960). He cataloged white border cards as we know them, T206, and he cataloged cards similar to those but with"Coupon" backs, "brown or blue and on thin or thick stock", as T213. The "T" being for Twentieth Century Tobacco card. Hope this helps.

[FrankWakefield]

The T213 type 1 "Coupon" cards are very thin. Virtually paper. If you had a bunch of T206s and T213-1s in you hand, loose, and you decided to sort them into two piles by type, you'd find yourself being careful so the T206's didn't damage the T213-1's. The latter are very thin and fragile. The front's surface seems slightly different from the T206's, quality-wise it is an inferior card. Mr. Lipset and others before him considered distribution about 1910-11. Seems to me that the American Tobacco Trust wanted thin, affordable cards for Coupon cigarettes, so some were made with the plates/stones still around from T206 card production. Some folks think the type 1 Coupons should be considered as part of T206. I don't. I think fewer would if they actually held a few in their hands, felt how thin they are, and noticed the quality of the printing. Mr. Burdick thought them separate... Mr. Lipset did. Those two were pretty smart about cards.

[g_vezina_c55]

Thx guy

[tedzan]

Hey guys........

This 1st Coupon issue was marketed circa Spring--Summer 1910. And, this is where Burdick got it wrong, for his dating of these cards
was circa 1911-1912. Burdick's accomplishments were tremendous (especially in cataloging Non-Sports cards), so do not misconstrue.
I'm not being critical of him. Had he the correct year of issue of these COUPON cards, I feel certain that he would have classified them
in the T206 family.

American Litho. printed these cards on thinner cardboard stock because theywere NEVER meant to serve as cigarette pack "stiffners".

The COUPON brand was a new cigarette being marketed by ATC in the deep South. These cigarettes were packaged in large-lot boxes
that were labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes.

Therefore, the "thinner card" excuse is just a red-herring.

This is an un-deniable fact....in every respect, these white-bordered, brown-captioned cards, with a stylistic back design that matches
a T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE and DRUM cards. Furthermore, they were printed within the 350 Series timeframe of the
T206 set.
What more do you need to know to convince you that these cards are indeed T206's.


TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

Hey Ted. Where do you get the summer 1910 dating?

[tedzan]

Frank

Two factors......

1....A newspaper adv. of a box labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes dated 1910.

2....The common stylstic back design that was printed on T206's in the Summer of 1910 **

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/babblcychaseblue.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T206bkDRUMx25.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T213x1blueCHASEx25b.jpg



** Reference....American Litho. ledger data.


TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

The ad isn't for much. I don't doubt that there are Coupon ads from 1905...

The back similarity doesn't sway me, either.

I think the T206 progression is much like you and Scot Reader have it. But I think Coupons were an afterthought. American Litho looked around for the old plates and stones that were still serviceable, and printed Coupons from that. It was a second rate process. I think the newer designs for the 460's were used for T206s, and the initial designs were used for Coupon cards. I think Mr. Burdick had it about right.

[tedzan]

I think the T206 progression is much like you and Scot Reader have it. But I think Coupons were an afterthought. American Litho looked around for the old plates and stones that were still serviceable, and printed Coupons from that.

I think Mr. Burdick had it about right.

Frank

1st......regarding your last comment...." I think Mr. Burdick had it about right. "

Check out Burdick's records. He dates the T213-1 set circa 1912-14. His data on these cards is absolutely incorrect. In his extensive cataloguing efforts, he
took the easy way out and included them with the T213-2 & -3 sets. I don't fault him for doing so, given the information he had back in the 1930's - 1940's.

I have no expectations of convincing you; however, you credit Scot and I for our "T206 progression". Therefore, consider this....the Demmitt and O'Hara (NY
and St Louis) variations provide us an insight as to the timeline of the initial POLAR BEAR (PB) press run..circa June 1910. So, what does this have to do with
this "COUPON" issue ?
Of the 48 Major League subjects in this set, 39 are POLAR BEAR No-Prints. Excluding the 6 super-prints from the equation, 39/42 is a considerable majority.
I'd say this data sets the timeline for the printing of these COUPON cards to some date prior to June 1910.


Finally, I somewhat agree with your...."But I think Coupons were an afterthought." In the Spring of 1910, ALC was in the process of printing these 48 - Major
League guys in their regular T206 press runs. So, ALC ran off a bunch of 48-card (or 96-card) sheets of these cards with the "COUPON" backs. Then shipped
these cards to Factory #3 in Louisiana to be placed in boxes of "COUPON" cigarettes.....or, simply handed out to customers of these cigarettes.


Best regards ole buddy,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Ted. I am confused. Of all of the known 1910 Coupons, all depict T206 images (in fact you have detailed how they follow the T206 series scheme). So I am not sure how there could ever be a "new" 1910 Coupon image that would not also have been on a T206. Isn't the more appropriate thread title "T206 . . . imagine if Joe Jackson was in this set."?

In fact, if there was a 1910 Coupon Joe Jackson (but not a Joe Jackson T206) there could be no argument that T213-1 are in fact another T206 back (as I believe they are).

Chris

Well stated, and yes Joe Jax would first have been printed in the T206 regular press runs with whatever backs (respective of the series he was printed in).

The 1910 "COUPON" printing was incidental to the T206 press runs (especially the PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN, and SWEET CAPORAL press runs).


TED Z