Ron Keurajian's new book

[RichardSimon]

Ron told me the book is coming out in November, 2012,,, good news for the hobby.

[mr2686]

Here's the publishers link to order it, although it looks like you can also order it through Amazon.
http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.php?isbn=0-7864-7050-X

[Wymers Auction]

I have already ordered my copy!!! Thanks for the info.

[JimStinson]

I am also looking forward to it. Will it be available in Braille?

[travrosty]

I would hope PSA and JSA would pick up a copy, or 3.

[mr2686]

I would hope PSA and JSA would pick up a copy, or 3.

Then it really would be helpful to be in braille! :D

[Scott Garner]

I would hope PSA and JSA would pick up a copy, or 3.

Now that's funny! :p

[clutch]

That book would pay for itself quickly.

[travrosty]

They would find out what some HOF autographs look like, hope there is an extensive ty cobb section.

[Splinte1941]

I would hope PSA and JSA would pick up a copy, or 3.

:D

[Wymers Auction]

I would hope PSA and JSA would pick up a copy, or 3.
Maybe we should mail one to Coaches Corner.

[mighty bombjack]

Maybe we should mail one to Coaches Corner.

Believe me, their consigners will have a copy.

[deebro041]

Here's the publishers link to order it, although it looks like you can also order it through Amazon.
http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.php?isbn=0-7864-7050-X

I'm in Canada, to order this book from the publisher would cost me $15 shipping, through Amazon it is $9. Decisions decisions:rolleyes:

[JimStinson]

Its quite likely that the toughest autographs in the Baseball Hall of Fame are Cuban born Cristobal Torriente and Jose Mendez. Long before their recent induction into the Hall of Fame I was knocking on doors in Cuba 20 years ago. To my knowledge no autograph of either has ever been offered for sale and was confident that I was one of only maybe two or three people that knew what their autograph even looks like.
Examplars of their autographs will be in the book. I hope I'm wrong BUT wouldn't it be wierd if after the book comes out, so too do signatures of these all time toughies? Naw !!! No way that would happen. Would it ??
:) Say It ain't so Ron ! Say it ain't so

[gnaz01]

Its quite likely that the toughest autographs in the Baseball Hall of Fame are Cuban born Cristobal Torriente and Jose Mendez. Long before their recent induction into the Hall of Fame I was knocking on doors in Cuba 20 years ago. To my knowledge no autograph of either has ever been offered for sale and was confident that I was one of only maybe two or three people that knew what their autograph even looks like.
Examplars of their autographs will be in the book. I hope I'm wrong BUT wouldn't it be wierd if after the book comes out, so too do signatures of these all time toughies? Naw !!! No way that would happen. Would it ??
:) Say It ain't so Ron ! Say it ain't so

I believe that after the book comes out, the Roaches will have a few of them on snow white baseballs or, even better, a Cohiba or MonteCristo label :D, but it wont be seen because it will be item #659 :D

[prewarsports]

Jim

I had alays head that Torriente was illiterate. I would be interested to see what his signature looks like.

[JimStinson]

Numerous records of the day and achives dating to as early as 1913 when he was 20 years old, including ship passage documents all confirm that Cristobal Torriente could indeed read and write.

[JimStinson]

Also I've found that most of the historical information regarding Torriente and his time spent in the United States and where he spent it is wrong. Especially the last few years of his life.

[prewarsports]

Thats cool! Cant wait for the book.

[gnaz01]

Man, I am bummed :( Just got an email from Amazon that the publishing date was pushed back to sometime in December :(

[JimStinson]

Thats ONLY three months away :) anything worth having is worth waiting for

[mighty bombjack]

Man, I am bummed :( Just got an email from Amazon that the publishing date was pushed back to sometime in December :(

A perfect cold weather book in my eyes. Merry Christmas to me!

[mr2686]

Looks like Dec 3rd so it will make a great Christmas gift. I plan on purchasing a few.

[Exhibitman]

Sounds like a definitive study. Now, the bad question: in a field like this where 'artists' regularly forge signatures, is it a good thing to put this info out there?

[Scott Garner]

Adam,
I've thought of this as well...

[drc]

It's a good question and any answer will have good and bad points. My opinion is the biggest cause culprit in collectible scams is buyer ignorance and anything that raises the hobby's knowledge level is positive.

[mighty bombjack]

Its quite likely that the toughest autographs in the Baseball Hall of Fame are Cuban born Cristobal Torriente and Jose Mendez. Long before their recent induction into the Hall of Fame I was knocking on doors in Cuba 20 years ago. To my knowledge no autograph of either has ever been offered for sale and was confident that I was one of only maybe two or three people that knew what their autograph even looks like.
Examplars of their autographs will be in the book. I hope I'm wrong BUT wouldn't it be wierd if after the book comes out, so too do signatures of these all time toughies? Naw !!! No way that would happen. Would it ??
:) Say It ain't so Ron ! Say it ain't so

There is a Jose Mendez signed ball listed in the next Legendary auction. I can't see a damn thing in the auction photos, but it is intriguing.

[r2678]

Just got this email from Amazon about ths book:

Previous estimated arrival date: December 10, 2012 - December 13, 2012
New estimated arrival date: November 28, 2012 - December 03, 2012

[thecatspajamas]

The publisher's website has a link to Buy Now with a note below that says "Available for immediate shipment."

Anyone gotten theirs yet?

[isaac2004]

The publisher's website has a link to Buy Now with a note below that says "Available for immediate shipment."

Anyone gotten theirs yet?

Supposedly mine was getting shipped today with estimated 6 day delivery. Will update when I get it.

[murphusa]

Supposedly mine was getting shipped today with estimated 6 day delivery. Will update when I get it.


I also received a meeage from Amazon saying it was on the way

[isaac2004]

Well it looks like I will be getting mine tomorrow, if you can believe the online tracker...

SO EXCITED!!!

[whyconform]

man...interesting...... may have to buy this sooner and remove it from my xmas list haha....

[isaac2004]

Mine is out for delivery, will get it this afternoon

[isaac2004]

Yaaaay

[joed25]

I just ordered mine. Do you guys like it? Was it worth the $50?

[murphusa]

it is not what I thought it would be as I think I was looking for something like his memorabilia book. Not a lot of pictures but a lot of information and reading must be done to understand the finer things within each autograph he describes.

In the future I think I will be very happy with the knowledge gained from this book but it is more of a class room study that what we have been used to in baseball books

rate it A which will turn to an A+ in the future

[Wymers Auction]

I received my copy and I really like it. I think his approach to this book is clever and does almost nothing to educate the forger, but very nice information for the collector. Instead of spending lots of time talking about the M's in Mantle or the D's in Dimaggio, he spends most of the discussion teaching how to determine forgeries by showing you traits that the forger cannot improve much. I have already read the entire book and know that it will remain useful.

[roarfrom34]

are their discussions on every Hall of Famer's signature or just the "bigger" names?

[murphusa]

Hall of Fame Signatures

[Wymers Auction]

are their discussions on every Hall of Famer's signature or just the "bigger" names?
All of them that have exemplars available.

[JimStinson]

The only Hall of Fame examples its missing is FRANK GRANT & TIM KEEFE , Grant because no known examples have ever surfaced either in or out of the public domain and Keefe because examples became available after the book had gone to press.
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[r2678]

Is there an Addie Joss example?

[isaac2004]

Is there an Addie Joss example?

Yes there is

[michael3322]

Can someone who has the book post any more information about the Joss auto, especially since it was such a hot topic recently with the auction that featured his hand-writing and the recent reported (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=155934&highlight=joss+auto) discovery of another Joss auto that appears to have been a fake.

Thanks.

[r2678]

In a nut shell; The auto shown is from an autograph album purportedly from the estate of Nap Lajoie. Where possible, the autos in this album match known signatures. But when it comes to Joss, "it should be considered an unconfirmed signature, simply because there is nothing to compare it to."

[JimStinson]

My two cents...When Ron was working on the book he asked me and I told him at that time there were what I believed to be two genuine examples of Addie Joss signature. There is some variation in both.

The one example he used in the book. The other example which was obtained from Joss widow he did not as he was not confident enough in it to use it , so he didn't.

Since then a postcard written by Addie and addressed to his son surfaced (I think its mentioned in this thread) and it matches exactly The example I have that originated from the wife which was not in the book. I believe all three are genuine. Two are in private collections and I have no idea where the other one ended up as I never saw the original only a copy.
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[isaac2004]

My two cents...When Ron was working on the book he asked me and I told him at that time there were what I believed to be two genuine examples of Addie Joss signature. There is some variation in both.

The one example he used in the book. The other example which was obtained from Joss widow he did not as he was not confident enough in it to use it , so he didn't.

Since then a postcard written by Addie and addressed to his son surfaced (I think its mentioned in this thread) and it matches exactly The example I have that originated from the wife which was not in the book. I believe all three are genuine. Two are in private collections and I have no idea where the other one ended up as I never saw the original only a copy.
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com


Well with 3 separate examples, and if you believe each to be authentic, I think we (I mean you or Ron, since you have seen all 3) can safely "authenticate" any examples separate than these three that surface in the hobby. The price 1 of those 3 will command when they eventually go to auction, whew.

[JimStinson]

Well ....Yes and No, He and I mildly disagree at present as to the authenticity of all three of what I would consider "knowns"...legit signatures of Joss. The example I cite from the widow might not even exist anymore as it appears to be an old style xerox , so she might have just sent out the copy and not the original. Or maybe only had a copy herself.

Then you add the intangibles of the signature variations , and rarity which would (I hope) make anyone who trys to authenticate an Addie Joss signature be looking at more than just "slant, formation, pen pressure etc etc, blah blah" and be instead looking for ROCK SOLID provenance and the ability to back track what? Almost 100 years to practically "put the pen in his hand" Anything less would be negligent considering what his signature would sell for either via auction or outright sale.
_____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[insidethewrapper]

Can someone post or email me a Dan Brouthers auto from the book ? thanks Mike

[JimStinson]

Phone numbers are
1-800-HELP-NOW
1-800-435-7669
___________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

please keep in mind that is the job of any forger to make the signatures MATCH , its easy to do , for a good authenticator the signature itself (in most cases) is the LAST thing he looks at

[michael3322]

Jim,

This is all quite interesting. Thanks for sharing your insights. I just want to make sure that I understand what you are saying:

There are 3 examples of Joss' signature:

1) The one used in Ron's new book from Nap Lajoie's autograph album

2) The postcard recently auctioned at Old Judge (http://www.oldjudge.com/auction/235/) and authenticated by Kevin Keating. Lew Lipset sent me the COA, which I posted on Net54 on this thread (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=155934&highlight=joss+auto&page=2).

3) A third for which you have seen a photocopy of a legal document reported to have been obtained from his widow with writing that appears to match the other two.

Did I get that right?

Thanks.



Well ....Yes and No, He and I mildly disagree at present as to the authenticity of all three of what I would consider "knowns"...legit signatures of Joss. The example I cite from the widow might not even exist anymore as it appears to be an old style xerox , so she might have just sent out the copy and not the original. Or maybe only had a copy herself.

Then you add the intangibles of the signature variations , and rarity which would (I hope) make anyone who trys to authenticate an Addie Joss signature be looking at more than just "slant, formation, pen pressure etc etc, blah blah" and be instead looking for ROCK SOLID provenance and the ability to back track what? Almost 100 years to practically "put the pen in his hand" Anything less would be negligent considering what his signature would sell for either via auction or outright sale.
_____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

Jim,

This is all quite interesting. Thanks for sharing your insights. I just want to make sure that I understand what you are saying:

There are 3 examples of Joss' signature:

1) The one used in Ron's new book from Nap Lajoie's autograph album

2) The postcard recently auctioned at Old Judge (http://www.oldjudge.com/auction/235/) and authenticated by Kevin Keating. Lew Lipset sent me the COA, which I posted on Net54 on this thread (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=155934&highlight=joss+auto&page=2).

3) A third for which you have seen a photocopy of a legal document reported to have been obtained from his widow with writing that appears to match the other two.

Did I get that right?

Thanks.

Correct (Kinda), The postcard authenticated by Kevin Keating matches exactly the sample from the legal document obtained from the widow. I believe both are genuine known examples. Both of those are slightly different from the example in Ron K's book (the one from the Lajoie album) which I also believe is authentic. Although carries some variation from the first two mentioned above.
_________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

Also for clarification I don't think Kevin was authenticating or the auction was representing the notation at the top of the postcard (Joss, Adrian left standing) which likely is in a seperate hand and written later. The rest of the card in my opinion is dead on correct
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[markf31]

Can someone post or email me a Dan Brouthers auto from the book ? thanks Mike

Why don’t you support Ron for all the hard work he put into the project and buy the book, rather than asking for someone to send you a scan from a book they themselves invested in and purchased. I highly recommend you just purchase the book. It’s an extremely valuable reference and tool for a collector, and easily worth the $49.95 from Amazon. IMO it’s one thing to ask for the opinions from board members or ask to see examples from their collection even, but it’s another to ask someone who purchased the book to help you out just so you don’t have to make the same investment.

[isaac2004]

Are there other books like this out on the market, with more examples maybe?

[tazdmb]

Sports Collectors Digest had a similar book out about 15? years ago. I thought it was pretty good, but based on Ron's book-the author still got duped on some toughies, like Rube. Here is the amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Baseball-Autograph-Handbook-Allen-Baker/dp/0873411692

[dgo71]

Pretty sure Keating wrote a book similar to this but focused exclusively on Negro Leaguers.

[Hankphenom]

Pretty sure Keating wrote a book similar to this but focused exclusively on Negro Leaguers.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Negro-Leagues-Autograph-Guide/dp/093062551X

[joed25]

I dropped $50 on the book. I'm not impressed at all. If you need help figuring out if a signature is real or not, the book doesnt really help. I was shocked what he left out by Mantle.

[isaac2004]

I dropped $50 on the book. I'm not impressed at all. If you need help figuring out if a signature is real or not, the book doesnt really help. I was shocked what he left out by Mantle.

What were you expecting, letter by letter break down of every autograph? The book does a great job informing the collector and not giving any valuable information to the forger.

[joed25]

What were you expecting, letter by letter break down of every autograph? The book does a great job informing the collector and not giving any valuable information to the forger.

I highly doubt Ron was worried about "giving valuable information to the forger". A book on authenticating autographs should be what it's supposed to be. Complete.

[old13man]

Is there exemplars of every HOF signature? What is the format of the book?

[jgmp123]

Ask yourself this...is there another book out that has this much depth? No. The book is great for what it is. Why spend so much time on Mantle when there are 299 other HOF'ers out there to cover. You can find Mantle info anywhere. Most collectors looking at this book are out for the info not easily accessible.

[joed25]

Ask yourself this...is there another book out that has this much depth? No. The book is great for what it is. Why spend so much time on Mantle when there are 299 other HOF'ers out there to cover. You can find Mantle info anywhere. Most collectors looking at this book are out for the info not easily accessible.
Mantle was just an example with a number of points he could have mentioned to tell if it's real or not. Like he says with the Jonny Mize in the beginning of the book with the "I". There are many more names that I felt he did not do justice to. I got the feeling that many of the entries were sort of recycled. Many of the famous indicators you know about the common Hall of Famers like Mantle, DiMaggio... He surprisingly does not mention. I would also do color pictures for a $50 book. I enjoyed reading it. I love reading anything about the hobby. I was just dissapointed as it did not meet my expectations.

[David Atkatz]

I dropped $50 on the book. I'm not impressed at all. If you need help figuring out if a signature is real or not, the book doesnt really help. I was shocked what he left out by Mantle.Instead of complaining, why not help the poor guy out and give him a Mantle tutorial? I'm sure he could use your help.

[JimStinson]

The real "meat and potatoes" was in the begining of the book , basically how to "Buy smart" , do's and don'ts.
In order to cover all the bases on individual examples and signature analysis the book would have to be a thirty volume set.
By the way the book has been on the #1 best seller list on Amazon books in the memorabilia and collectibles catagory for going on 6 days.
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[cubsfan-budman]

Instead of complaining, why not help the poor guy out and give him a Mantle tutorial? I'm sure he could use your help.

I don't think JoeD is saying that the dude doesn't know stuff about Mantle's autograph and how to determine it's authenticity. I think he's saying that the dude didn't do a very thorough job explaining what he knows in his $50 book.

I'll bet your heart skipped a beat when you thought you'd found some way to be a jerk to someone on the boards that knows less than you.

Nice job.

[Deertick]

I don't think JoeD is saying that the dude doesn't know stuff about Mantle's autograph and how to determine it's authenticity. I think he's saying that the dude didn't do a very thorough job explaining what he knows in his $50 book.

I'll bet your heart skipped a beat when you thought you'd found some way to be a jerk to someone on the boards that knows less than you.

Nice job.

Heart???? :D

[chaddurbin]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Negro-Leagues-Autograph-Guide/dp/093062551X

thanks for the link. got a used one for $4.25 shipped! need to get caught up on my negro league knowledge.