View Full Version : I wonder if the dude with the paper cutter lost his finger on this one?
danmckee
05-31-2012, 09:16 PM
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=23527&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=1&seo=T206-Nap-Lajoie-Portrait-%e2%80%9cPiedmont-Cigarettes%e2%80%9d-(PSA-8)-----%e2%80%9c1-of-2-Listed-Piedmonts-with-NONE-Graded
Nice straight bottom and a HACKED top
embarrassing to be in a numbered holder!
embarrassing!
atx840
05-31-2012, 09:22 PM
http://i.imgur.com/m3wKs.jpg
sycks22
05-31-2012, 09:30 PM
PSA fails once again.
brianp-beme
05-31-2012, 09:59 PM
But the write-up indicates "precision cut corners, razor sharp edging", so PSA must be correct. The lot description lacks only an indication as to whom/what was making these cuts, and in which decade.
Brian
brass_rat
05-31-2012, 10:15 PM
Well, I personally agree with you on this one, but I dunno...I asked this woman, and she seems to think everything is level. :D
Bosox Blair
05-31-2012, 11:50 PM
Well, I personally agree with you on this one, but I dunno...I asked this woman, and she seems to think everything is level. :D
PSA = Picasso Sports Authenticators??? :D
Matthew H
06-01-2012, 12:07 AM
Well, those guillotine cutters are still around and the borders are still fat so maybe it can still be upgraded.
Wymers Auction
06-01-2012, 12:33 AM
I like how the plastic retainer that holds the card in place accentuates how bad that edge is.
Matthew H
06-01-2012, 01:06 AM
It looks like the top edge was damaged by the holder too...
Pup6913
06-01-2012, 06:33 AM
PSA = Picasso Sports Authenticators??? :D
nice:D:D:D
Exhibitman
06-01-2012, 12:48 PM
Poorly Schooled Authenticators
Probably Shilled Auction
Purely Subjective Analysis
Potentially Spurious Authentication
danmckee
06-01-2012, 05:53 PM
If I had the money to throw away, I would win this hack job, pop it and submit it to PSA 20 times and would receive 20 "authentics".
4815162342
06-01-2012, 06:36 PM
Poorly Schooled Authenticators
Probably Shilled Auction
Purely Subjective Analysis
Potentially Spurious Authentication
Please Stop Authenticating, Somebody Got Cheated By Valuing Grading.
markf31
06-02-2012, 09:04 AM
Perhaps this could be a case of someone cracking the holder and swapping, replacing the originally graded card with this hacked version? It's not out of the real of possibilities, it’s been done before. And I would tend to lean towards that direction rather than PSA missing something THIS obvious.
danmckee
06-02-2012, 12:47 PM
Perhaps this could be a case of someone cracking the holder and swapping, replacing the originally graded card with this hacked version? It's not out of the real of possibilities, it’s been done before. And I would tend to lean towards that direction rather than PSA missing something THIS obvious.
Always possible but I vote no way. I also do not think they missed it but holdered it fully knowing it was hacked. Just like they holdered the hacked Wagner gem and last month's hacked Plank.
danmckee
06-02-2012, 12:48 PM
please stop authenticating, somebody got cheated by valuing grading.
classic!
CMIZ5290
06-02-2012, 05:11 PM
Dan- i have many t206's that have similar diamond cuts...are they all trimmed?? i have seen many cards with cuts like this graded by psa and sgc....
danmckee
06-02-2012, 05:14 PM
Hi Kevin
Are yours cut crazy on top with a matching backwards bottom cut?
That is fine
When the 2 cuts are way off, the card is HACKED!
Dan
danmckee
06-02-2012, 05:14 PM
Kevin please post a few, I will gladly share my non-3rd party grading opinion
Kevin please post a few, I will gladly share my non-3rd party grading opinion
Dan'o, "3rd party grading" is in fact already taken. First class and second class already taken too. We still have 4th class available? Will that work for you? I can see it now......
DAN's 4th Class Grading Company
Kind of rolls off your tongue.
danmckee
06-02-2012, 05:27 PM
Dan'o, "3rd party grading" is in fact already taken. First class and second class already taken too. We still have 4th class available? Will that work for you? I can see it now......
DAN's 4th Class Grading Company
Kind of rolls off your tongue.
Are you telling me to "shut up" and I am not catching on?
Sorry but email me and I will gladly "shut up" for you
you know that
Dan,
I've seen quite a few T206s that have an irregular factory cut on the top like that. It's really not that unusual. Without an in-person visual examination of the card it's impossible to tell if it has been trimmed after the fact, but I would guess that it is not.
danmckee
06-02-2012, 05:56 PM
Really? Looks obvious to me after 43 years of collecting T206.
If the angle cut matches top and bottom then yes, I agree with you
But with a straight bottom and a paper cutter top, this is blatantly HACKED!
I promise you I would receive 100 authentics if I popped it and submitted it that many times.
4815162342
06-02-2012, 05:59 PM
If a card is on the bottom of the sheet, then it is possible to for the top and bottom angles to not match, correct?
...
Is the Lajoie port on the bottom of the sheet?
danmckee
06-02-2012, 06:02 PM
Who knows if the cutters stopped 1 row befroe the bottom of the sheets or not??
Are you kidding me?
If I submit this card it is "AUTHENTIC" PERIOD!!!!!!
you have gotta be kidding me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dan,
I greatly admire your knowledge, passion, and enthusiasm for this great hobby but I think you're a bit off on this one.
Both the top and bottom of the card are cut at the same angle, though the top is more pronounced. Again, not that unusual for someone who has viewed hundreds of thousands of T206s.
vintagetoppsguy
06-02-2012, 06:08 PM
Both the top and bottom of the card are cut at the same angle, though the top is more pronounced.
That's the way I see at as well. I don't know why Dan keeps saying the bottom is straight when it's not. As much as I dislike PSA, I don't think the card is trimmed.
Dan, from the scan it looks funky to me too. I am not getting into the fray though. And of course I don't care what you say about anything or anyone. Why should I care? You have a right to your opinion just like everyone else. See you at the National!!
I should add that I am not saying the card in question is trimmed. I don't know if it is or isn't. Anyone can see it has a funky cut.
tedzan
06-02-2012, 06:51 PM
Deleted
CMIZ5290
06-02-2012, 07:05 PM
my absolute opinion is the card is not trimmed....
alanu
06-02-2012, 10:03 PM
Who knows if the cutters stopped 1 row befroe the bottom of the sheets or not??
Are you kidding me?
If I submit this card it is "AUTHENTIC" PERIOD!!!!!!
you have gotta be kidding me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is the real issue if this card is trimmed or if some people get preferential treatment at the grading companies?
Ronnie73
06-03-2012, 02:45 AM
First, I have posted this in both threads about this subject. Also, lets keep this a friendy debate. I'm not an expert but just sharing what I do know.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=152007 T206 Resource, I would appreciate an opinion on this one
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151903 I wonder if the dude with the paper cutter lost his finger on this one?
I can understand everyones feeling about a diamond cut needing to match the top and bottom and i'm not going to say wether the card was trimmed or not but I will tell you what I do know. First let me say that I personally don't buy diamond cuts with one strait edge and one angled edge because they always look possibly trimmed when in the holder and just don't look good to me. I also have seen more SGC holders (mostly older ones) with numerically graded cards with one straight edge and one angle edge than PSA over the years. Over 20 years ago, I worked at a print shop and all the equipment was early 1900's. I worked the cutter alot and depending on how much paper was under the clamp, as the blade sliced down, you could get a fanning of the paper. Now by experiece on how the cutter works, I can tell you that the T206's were first cut in vertical strips because you never see a diamond cut on the sides. This is because the paper clamp has the full length of the sheet pile to hold onto. After that, the strips were put into the clamp, one strip pile at a time. The pile would be no more than 2 inches high because its hand opperated and the more you cut at once, the harder it is. This is where the fanning or diamond cut happens. The clamp only has the width of the card to hold onto. During the first cut, you would put the strip pile flat against the fence and clamp down. As the wedged blade cuts down, the pile can twist under the clamp and the cards closest to the bottom would have the greatest degee of angle. Now remember that the pile started with a straight edge and now a few cards from the bottom of the pile have a diamond cut edge on the top border of the card. This scenario would create the card in question. Now for matching top and bottom diamond cuts. Once an angled cut happens and you put that angled cut against the cutting fence, you continue to get the same angle within the rest of that strip of cards.
Below is a copy of an older post I wrote. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=143487 How T206's were cut?
I believe the cards were cut with the machine pictured in the link. I've used one of these cutters at an old print shop. There is an adjustable fence on the back side of the cutter and clamp. I believe the card sheets were cut first into vertical strips. After cutting off the border scrap, the fence would be adjusted 1 7/16 inches from the blade and then a stack of sheets maybe measuring 1 to 2 inches thick with a scrap piece of thick cardboard on the bottom and top of the pile would be slid into the front of the cutter. Adjust the pile smoothly against the fence and then turn the clamp wheel down tight. This is why a piece of scrap cardboard is used, so there are no clamp impressions on the cards. Then pull the handle down and cut the pile. Release the clamp and put the cut strip aside and continue to repeat the process until a good quantity are cut into strips. Now to cut the strips into single cards. Adjust the fence to 2 5/8 inches and now cut them into singles. I believe it was done exactly in this process because when cutting small strips of anything on one of these cutters, the clamp does not have enough surface area to clamp onto and the pile tends to sometimes fan out a bit. This would be the reason we see some T206's with the tops and bottoms cut at equal angles known to many as diamond cuts. The cards could not be cut any other way because if you follow a diamond cut angle through a whole sheet, the cut will be maybe an inch or so into the picture on one side of the sheet and on the other side the cut will be between the boarders of two cards. So first they were cut into vertical strips and then cut into singles. Hope this is not too confusing. I could always draw a diagram to explain the diamond cut angles.
http://www.bookbindersmuseum.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=601:guillotine-american-cir-1900&catid=1:equipment
wolfdogg
06-03-2012, 07:39 AM
Please Stop Authenticating, Somebody Got Cheated By Valuing Grading.
:)best one so far......
markf31
06-03-2012, 06:33 PM
Great information Ron! While I never worked in a professional print shop I did minor in graphic design when in college and after reading your post I can absolutely remember dealing with "fan cuts" while trying to accurately cut stacks of paper and card stock even with some more modern cutting equipment so I can absolutely believe this being an issue with tobacco cards in the early part of the 20th century.
If the card could be examined, more specifically the edges of the stock, outside of the case with a simple magnifying loop one could pretty easily determine if the cut is factory and original, or if it has been modified and cut after the fact. I would imagine this is a criteria that TPGs use in determining the authenticity of such a card but I don't know that.