The oldest card on this board?

[SetBuilder]

What's the oldest card out there among the board members? It'll probably be non-sports, but post it anyway. Anyone have something from pre-1850? Maybe 1700s?

I read the NY Times Burdick article this morning and it mentioned that he researched the origins of trade cards and playing cards way back to the 1300s.

[Pup6913]

I have 2 advertising cards from the 1840's for cure all medicine. Don't know how I even got them or where they are at the moment.

[Tyler]

Don't know how I even got them or where they are at the moment.

Andrew, is it me or are you in 'la-la' land lately? :D

[benjulmag]

Dates to 1844, scene depicted is a baseball game being played at Elysian Fields

[Pup6913]

Corey that card is sick:cool:

Tyler you are right. Been way off my game lately(not that I have ever been right anyways). Just a lot going on right now.

[Leon]

Dates to 1844, scene depicted is a baseball game being played at Elysian Fields

Thanks for posting this Corey. Is this actually a card? Can you give the approximate dimensions and say if there is anything on the back?

[oldjudge]

Corey-Are they playing baseball or cricket? It almost looks like a combination of the two.

[benjulmag]

The card is 5 1/8" x 3 1/4". Below is an image of the verso. It was issued as a ticket to the first annual ball of the Magnolia Ball Club. Here in its entirety is an ad that ran in the New York Herald February 6-8, 1844:

THE FIRST ANNUAL BALL of the New York Magnolia Ball Club will take place at National Hall, Canal st. on Friday evening, Feb. 9th, inst. The Club pledge themselves that no expense or exertions shall be spared to render this (their first) Ball worthy the patronage of their friends. The Ball Room will be splendidly decorated with the insignia of the Club. Brown’s celebrated Band is engaged for the occasion. Tickets $1, to be had of the undersigned, and at the bar of National Hall.
JOSEPH CARLISLE, Chairman.
PETER H. GRAHAM, Secretary

As to the question how it can be a card as well as a ticket, I would respond that it can be both if it satisfies the critieria of each. Inasmuch as it was available to the general public, depicts baseball subject matter, was used for commercial purposes and has the physical characteristics of a card, IMO it can reasonably be called a card, the same way as the Jordan Marsh tickets from the 1860's are regarded by many as early baseball cards.

[benjulmag]

Corey-Are they playing baseball or cricket? It almost looks like a combination of the two.

IMO they are playing baseball under the NY rules, which supports the view of most historians that the Knickerbockers formally codified a version of the game that was already extant.

EDITED to add that period newspaper accounts of the Magnolias and the game they played confirm that it was baseball they were playing.

[Leon]

Thanks again Corey. I agree with your analysis too.

[Robextend]

I showed this to a friend who believes it shows some characteristics of Cricket. The "bat" seems to be very wide. Also, it looks like there is a wicket on the field. However if it was cricket, the catcher would be much further back. This could be a good example of how Baseball evolved from Cricket.

[barrysloate]

Corey- I clearly see several posts around the perimeter of the infield. Wouldn't that suggest the Massachusetts style of baseball?

[smokelessjoe]

Hey Barry,

Did you say Massachusetts Base Ball?:)

[benjulmag]

Corey- I clearly see several posts around the perimeter of the infield. Wouldn't that suggest the Massachusetts style of baseball?

If there were four posts I'd agree with you, but I see only three, the "fourth" being home plate where the batter appears to. Also, inasmuch as the game is taking place at Elysian Fields, it would seem more logical they would be playing the NY version. What is interesting is that there are posts for bases. IMO even though the core of the NY game was being played prior to the Knickerbockers formal codification in 1845, certain aspects were still evolving.

[Pup6913]

Sliding into a post or running into one for that matter doesn't sound appealing. You think baseball would be what it is today if post stayed in use?

[barrysloate]

Shawn- that's an amazing diagram. I remember when you posted it a year or two ago.

Corey- it's interesting that only two posts are visible- you would expect to see either four or none. Could you explain why there are only two? It's possible that the batter is standing in front of one and it is obscured, but of course there is no concrete evidence of it.

Edited to add you said you see three, and I only see two. Where is the one I am missing?

[benjulmag]

Barry,

It's hard to see on the posted image but the missing third post (first base) is just to right of the scorer's table. It shows up very clearly on a blown up tiff image I have, but that file is too large to display.

[Texxxx]

This is it:

[barrysloate]

Thanks Bruce. I originally thought that might be a post, but it's too small and indistinct. Don't those bases look really far apart?

[peterose4hof]

This is excellent information! Thanks all for sharing.

It's fascinating to me how great everyone's penmanship seemed to be in the 19th century.

[benjulmag]

A bit blurry, but the third post is clearly visible.

[Texxxx]

I think the card is fantastic myself. I believe the layout of the field and the actual position of the fielders, especially the outfielders are not like they where actually in real life. The person that drew the picture had so much space to put everything in and drawing it to real life would not be easy. It was easier to bring in the outfielders and draw it like it was on the side of the hill. They would have needed several balls if they played that close to the lake also.

[barrysloate]

Corey- it's actually pretty clear.

I don't see either a plate or a post near where the batter is standing. Could the catcher or batter be blocking the fourth post?

[HercDriver]

Is that Shoeless Joe batting? Look at his sock...

Sorry...it's been a long day.

Take Care,
Geno

[White Borders]

I showed this to a friend who believes it shows some characteristics of Cricket. The "bat" seems to be very wide. Also, it looks like there is a wicket on the field. However if it was cricket, the catcher would be much further back. This could be a good example of how Baseball evolved from Cricket.

It is definitely not cricket. In cricket there are two wickets (a wicket has three stakes about 2" apart). The striking batsman would be standing in front of one of them and the non-striking batsman would be standing behind the other. The bowler (pitcher) would be releasing the ball from near the non-striking wicket. The wicketkeeper (catcher) would be farther back if the bowler threw fast, but would be close to the wicket for a slow bowler.

Best Regards,
Craig

[oldjudge]

Very interesting Corey--thanks!

[ullmandds]

Incredible piece Corey!!!

[39special]

A bit blurry, but the third post is clearly visible.

That looks like Jamie Moyer pitching.

[White Borders]

Corey's definitely got me beat, but thought I'd show (again) my oldest card to keep the thread rolling. I think it's older than any ACC "N" card.

Best Regards and Happy Collecting :)
Craig

[prewarsports]

That guy has got the earliest swing in the "history" of the game!

Awesome piece.

Rhys

[deebro041]

A bit blurry, but the third post is clearly visible.

Sorry for the expression, but there seems to be some kind of base to the stakes.
Could Harper steal home on this field?

[dstraate]

That looks like Jamie Moyer pitching.

Great stuff. Woke my wife up giggling.

[E93]

Corey,
That is a phenomenal piece!:eek: Thank you for sharing it with us!
JimB

[doug.goodman]

Corey easily has me beat. And mine is obviously not a "card", but here is my earliest baseball item, a woodcut from Harper's Oct 15, 1859.

Cricket on top, baseball on the bottom.

Sorry for the poor quality picture.

Doug

[gnaz01]

Is that Shoeless Joe batting? o

Nah, the ears don't match up :D

[smokelessjoe]

Like Coreys' this is my ticket, card, invitation to a DANCE not a Ball Game... Unlike Coreys' I do not have the great "in-action" image of the game and mine is merely 30 years later! Yours is great Corey - Seems I remember you picking that up years ago?

I wish you could see this one in person - it is High Relief and I believe it is gold gilded. It shimmers and seems to have never seen the light of day since it was made.

Some of the guys went on to play in the majors. Pitcher George Bradley (Supposed first no hitter) played for the Eastons at this time and was probably dancing the night away:)

Here is some info from 1874

EASTON BASE BALL CLUB.

Among the organizations in Easton is one known throughout the entire
United States, the Easton Base, Ball Club. It was a continuation of the
Neptune, which was organized in 1866, when the great National game was in
its infancy, the club had a nine among the best in the State, during each
succeeding year. In 1872, the name "Easton" was adopted, and the club
entered for the State championship in that and the following year, but
failed to Parry off the honors. In 1874, the club entered for the amateur
championship of the State and the United States, in the, both of which they
succeeded, defeating every amateur club of note in Pennsylvania, as also
the professional Athletic and Philadelphia; the professional Atlantic, of
Brooklyn; and the several amateur clubs of New York, who took part in the
tournament for the amateur championship of the United States, at Watertown,
N. Y. The prosperity of the club was mainly due to the munificence of
George M. Reeder and W. H. Hulick.

The "champion" team was composed of the following named gentlemen
George W. Bradley, pitcher

Thomas J, Miller, catcher

John Abadie, 1st base

John Banker, 2d base

F. W. Wadsworth, short stop

William Hauge, 3d base

William R. Parks, left field

Charles Waitt, centre field

Arthur Allison, 1st base

J. J. Smith, captain, change pitcher, and right field.

The celebrity gained by the club in winning the championship in 1874, was
the cause of the above players, afterwards being engaged by the Managers of
the celebrated professional St. Louis, Washington, Boston, Chicago, and New
Haven Clubs, to strengthen their respective organizations.

The Easton Club is still in existence, and is recognized as one of the
leading exponents of the great National game in Pennsylvania.

[GaryPassamonte]

It is interesting that there is a player in the shortstop position in Corey's ticket. I was under the impression that this defensive position developed at a later date. Doc Adams has been credited with developing the shortstop position. Since the year of Corey's image is from 1844, it predates the Knickerbocker's origin. Perhaps history, once again, needs to be rewritten.

[Buythatcard]

Great pic by Corey but I believe this card might be from an earlier date.

[39special]

Great pic by Corey but I believe this card might be from an earlier date.

Thats great!!!Love those spikes!

[triwak]

Aw, what the hell...

[SetBuilder]

Incredible cards! Museum quality pieces.

My oldest cards are a set of 10 R&S die cuts. I saw them for sale individulally and I had to buy them even though I'm trying to focus on just T206 until I achieve at least 75% completion.

[GaryPassamonte]

I'd like to think this daguerreotype is baseball.

[wonkaticket]

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/mayo%20sloate.jpg

[HRBAKER]

Now that's old.
If I remember right, there was a parallel numbered to five signed in quill.

[Leon]

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/mayo%20sloate.jpg

That's awesome. I got my chuckle for the day. Thanks John. (for anyone that doesn't immediately know, that is the elusive Sloate Mayo Cut Plug card)

[barrysloate]

Lord have mercy.

[rc4157]

Barry............you have been around for quite a long time, haven't you?

The bad thing is, I was scrolling through this thread and didn't even notice it until Leon's reply with the picture in for a second time.

RC

[barrysloate]

Not that long...that's enough to get collectors to swear off collecting baseball cards.

[earlybball]

Just thought I would share this CDV as it is a very early sports card with direct connections to baseball.

Below are what could be the oldest (photo) sports card known picturing the 1859 English Cricket 11 as they set off for their tour of the USA.

It was printed in New York in 1859 by Fred Lillywhite (organiser of the tour) and used as a ticket to entry to the England 11 vs the USA 11 series of games. This example was ticket number 284 to one of those games (simply hand numbered in pen). This process of using a numbered photo CDV for entry was well documented in Lillywhite's subsequent book of the tour. Lillywhite sold his photo tickets and other souvenirs from the tent pictured in scan 3.

This CDV predates the 1863 CDV’s for the St. Georges (of NY) Cricket Club photo card tickets by 4 years. Interestingly, some of those featured on the St Georges cards actually played in the featured 1859 tour of the England 11.

Harry Wright, San Wright and Crossley all feature in the box scores in the 1859 series (see scan 5 for box score). As a result, I believe that this CDV was the origin/predecessor of the 1863 St. Georges CDV’s with Lillywhite’s keen business acumen (using the photo cards as tickets) providing the example for the Wright’s to follow (copy) in 1863.

What makes the CDV even more significant is that it does have further baseball connection. During the 1859 cricket tour, the England 11 (pictured) took part in several baseball games vs the US team (at Elysian Fields) including the Wrights (see scan 6). I must say that the English team were rather derogatory regarding the game of baseball and its player’s merits.

As far as my research show, this is the only known and remaining example of this CDV. Lords Cricket Club (MCC) museum does have a larger print (and a few other similar prints in private hands) but this was published later in London following the England 11’s return from the USA. That version of course cannot be classified as a sports card either as it was not printed for commercial or promotional purposes like the CDV was.

[barrysloate]

That's a spectacular image and great research. There's an 1859 Harper's woodcut depicting an important cricket match- coincidentally we've been discussing it over on the memorabilia side. Is there a connection between the CdV and the woodcut?

Edited to say the color print you've included is from Harper's, but I was referring to the game in progress that's on the same page as the baseball print.

[19cbb]

As far as my research show, this is the only known and remaining example of this CDV.

Not the only one known example in CDV format.

One question: how could Lillywhite have sold this CDV in his tent while in the US when the photo was taken just before his sailing aboard the Liverpool?

Unless I'm missing something, this photo was published while the chaps were still playing abroad.

[doug.goodman]

There's an 1859 Harper's woodcut depicting an important cricket match ... but I was referring to the game in progress that's on the same page as the baseball print.

I posted a picture of the entire two page spread, with both the cricket and baseball games, earlier on this thread.

Doug

[Wymers Auction]

Dates to 1844, scene depicted is a baseball game being played at Elysian Fields

That is awesome!!!!

[barrysloate]

Thanks Doug. When the threads get long I usually forget what was posted at the beginning.

[earlybball]

Thanks Barry, James and Doug. The double page spread is cool.

Jimmy, have you seen another one of these previously?
On your question, Lillywhite hired a photographer to come on board (at Liverpool where the photo was taken)and the snaps went with him to the USA. He had planned this trip well before hand as a money making exercise. Before they started with the games, the group went on a site seeing tour while Lillywhite organised the tent and had the CDV's & other programs printed in NY. It's all in the book - every facet of the trip was covered in its 400 or so pages. If I have time I will try to dig out the page if you are interested.

- Jason

[19cbb]

Hi Jason, long time my friend, didn't know it was you when I first replied.

Yes, I've seen a couple of copies of the CDV and I own a larger format mounted albumen with the Hennah and publishers print caption on bottom.

I don't remember reading about Fred Lilly' printing programs and cdvs in New York when other fellas went sightseeing. I have the book and will check again.

Was it in Caffyn's book maybe?

Btw, I'm currently writing a blog post in relation to the '59 XI that I hope to have published by next tuesday.

[Exhibitman]

My oldest card, made sometime between 1862 and 1870, of American champ John C. Heenan of Benecia, California. This is the earliest verifiable boxing card. Charles Deforest Fredricks issued the card as part of his commercially produced "Specialite" series of famous personages, sold from his gallery in New York City. His work is featured in a number of museum collections, including the Smithsonian. The copyright date refers to the making of the image, not the card itself. The form of copyright notice dates the card to before the advent of centralized copyright registration in Washington 1870. Since Heenan was out of the sport before the Civil War ended, I suspect the card was actually issued pre-1865, but there is no way to prove it one way or the other.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/rareboxingcards/1862%20Heenan%20CDV.jpg

[Hankphenom]

Here's my candidate. I call it the earliest "proto-baseball" Card. Hey, at least it's a card, from a set. I have 17 other cards from the set, a child's word learning game of 100+ cards. Produced sometime between 1800-1850, from what I could find out, probably more toward the earlier part of the century.

64551

[earlybball]

Hey Jimmy, nice to make contact again - it has been a while my friend.

Thanks for the info on the CDV's - I have looked high and low for other examples. Your larger format version sounds like a stunning piece - any chance of posting some scans?

On the printing, let me check the book this weekend to see if I can find it. I did a bunch of research on this image when I first got it 3 or so years back and I made the notes about the printing then. I will dig it out unless my wife pops out No 3 this weekend (she is due next week). I will be catching up with you at this rate!

Your upcoming blog sounds fascinating -I look forward to reading it! What address can I find it on Tuesday?

Cheers, Jason

[FrankWakefield]

Barry is a card, one who's on this board. But Ted is older. Ted is older than dirt. Ted is the oldest card on this board.