What 1912 stadium is this?

[horzverti]

What I do know:
Some guy name Cobb in his 1912 road uniform

What I'd like to know:
Where is he? Can you identify the stadium in which he floats?

I am selling this photo and want to include all possible info in my description. Any help is appreciated.

[BOB52]

Wayne Knit Hosiery ~ The Saturday Evening Post ~ 1912

[BOB52]

LINK: http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=190&ItemNo=49221

[horzverti]

Thanks Bob for identifying the Wayne Knit Hosiery advertisement on the outfield fence. I Googled this string and learned that Wayne Knit Hosiery had its headquarters in Ft. Wayne Indiana. The Ft. Wayne Railroaders played in Grand Duchess Stadium in 1912. Unfortunately, I was unsuccessful in finding any pictures of this ballpark. This may or may not be the correct stadium, but it is a start.
Thoughts?

[BOB52]

I'd start with every ball park in every city and state near Ft. Wayne, Indiana such as Chicago - Cleveland, etc. Or any team that was in the American League in 1912.

BOB

[Mark]

Someone should get started on a website that displays the configurations and signage of every ballpark in the majors from 1901 until today.

[baseballart]

There are a few ballpark experts around who don't seem to post on net54. I'll try an direct them here to see if they can provide any assistance

[horzverti]

Thanks Max!

[thecatspajamas]

Someone should get started on a website that displays the configurations and signage of every ballpark in the majors from 1901 until today.

That would be incredible, both in terms of usefulness and in scope of project. Maybe someday, but my goodness, what a herculean task that would be!

[BOB52]

American League Teams in 1912. Of course Cobb played for the Detroit Tigers ...

Boston Red Sox
Washington Senators
Philadelphia Athletics
Chicago White Sox
Cleveland Naps
Detroit Tigers
St. Louis Browns
New York Highlanders

[BOB52]

Classic Ball Parks (Old and New) ... Check it out!

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?40306-Historical-Archival-Photographs/page14

[BOB52]

1912 American League Continued ...

Boston Red Sox = Fenway Park
Washington Senators = Griffith Stadium
Philadelphia Athletics = Shibe Park
Chicago White Sox = Comeskey Park
Cleveland Naps = League Park
Detroit Tigers = Navin/Briggs/Tiger Stadium
St. Louis Browns = Sportman's Park
New York Highlanders = Hilltop Park

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

I've looked at about a zillion outfield fences, but haven't found the right one yet. At least not one from 1912 that advertises Wayne Knit Hoisery. Its possible they changed the signs from year to year, which, if they did, will make it tough to find the right one. However, a couple of things I learned during my search was to pay close attention to the fences that didn't have spectator seating and those with no city skyline in the background. I've already eliminated a couple of them, which I will mention later after I have fully confirmed them. The one in your photo appears to be maybe ten-foot high, so that should help narrow it down as well. But it's hard to say what all was done to those fences over the years. I suspect there is a good chance its one of the fences in an American League park ... but which one is the $64.00 question?

I'll keep looking. Its fun.

BOB52

[BOB52]

Based on my (non scientific) photo search, I have eliminated all of the 1912 American League ball parks except two, which are ...

1. The Washington Senators Griffith Stadium.
2. The Cleveland Naps League Park.

Research to continue.

BOB52

[BOB52]

Griffith Stadium ... (Possible if the wall in horzverti's photo is 30 feet tall).

The right field fence angled away from the infield sharply which, in addition to a 30-foot fence (to block the view from surrounding buildings) about 8 feet inside the lower, outer wall, meant that relatively few home runs were hit at the stadium.

[frankbmd]

Griffith Stadium ... (Possible if the wall in horzverti's photo is 30 feet tall).

The right field fence angled away from the infield sharply which, in addition to a 30-foot fence (to block the view from surrounding buildings) about 8 feet inside the lower, outer wall, meant that relatively few home runs were hit at the stadium.

Another view of right field wall at Griffith Stadium. Don't think it is Washington

[BOB52]

horzverti's photo ...

[BOB52]

League Park - Cleveland ? ? ?

[BOB52]

League Park Cleveland, Ohio - Home of the Naps

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

Are you 100% certain about the 1912 date? I eliminated the other 1912 American League parks primarily because all of the pictures I could find either showed grandstands or city skylines behind the outfield walls.

Thanks.

BOB52

[horzverti]

horzverti ~

Are you 100% certain about the 1912 date? I eliminated the other 1912 American League parks primarily because all of the pictures I could find either showed grandstands or city skylines behind the outfield walls.

Thanks.

BOB52

Yes. Cobb's uniform dates specifically to 1912 because of the collar style, light collar color which matches uniform, dark hat color and white buttons. It looks like Ty is wearing the 1912 Tigers road uniform, but he may not necessarily be on the road. He could have thrown on a road uniform while at home just for this shoot. Ty was know to get his uniform dirty now and again. Could it be that his home uniform was dirty?

Thanks for your research Bob. I really do appreciate it.

I am planning on starting the eBay auction for this photo tomorrow evening (Sat). Hopefully I can id the stadium by then. I will also be selling original pre-war photos of Babe Ruth, Lefty Grove, Gehrig, Dizzy, Feller and others. I am cleaning house...it is spring. :) I'll add a thread over on the buy/sell/trade area with more info.

Again, thanks Bob!

[frankbmd]

The right field wall in League Park may be higher than Washington.

Bleachers in left.

The Wayne family of Wayne Knit Hosiery was originally from Lansing, MI.

I guess we still don't know.


League Park

General Information
History
Analysis
Park Factors
Location
Dimensions

Fences - history
Fun Facts
Ballparks


AL Central

Cleveland Stadium

Comerica Park

New Comiskey Park
Old Comiskey Park
Jacobs Field
Kauffman Stadium

League Park
Metrodome

Tiger Stadium



Cleveland Sports
Browns
Cavs
High Schools
Capacity: 21,414
League Park

Aerial view of League Park

Picture from www.ballparks.com


General Information

Area of fair territory: 117,000 sq. ft. (1910 - 1919)

103,000 sq. ft. (1921 - 1929)



Area of foul territory: Average



Fences: LF - 5 ft

LCF - 10 ft

CF to RF - 45 ft

Elevation: 660 feet

Who Played Here: Cleveland Indians (AL)
First Opened: May 1, 1891
Reopened: April 21, 1910
First night game: Never
Last game: September 21, 1946
Demolished: 1951
Capacity: 9,000 (1891); 21,414 (1910)

Architect: Osborn Engineering (1910)
Owner: Cleveland Indians

[frankbmd]

Yes. Cobb's uniform dates specifically to 1912 because of the collar style, light collar color which matches uniform, dark hat color and white buttons. It looks like Ty is wearing the 1912 Tigers road uniform, but he may not necessarily be on the road. He could have thrown on a road uniform while at home just for this shoot. Ty was know to get his uniform dirty now and again. Could it be that his home uniform was dirty?

Thanks for your research Bob. I really do appreciate it.

I am planning on starting the eBay auction for this photo tomorrow evening (Sat). Hopefully I can id the stadium by then. I will also be selling original pre-war photos of Babe Ruth, Lefty Grove, Gehrig, Dizzy, Feller and others. I am cleaning house...it is spring. :) I'll add a thread over on the buy/sell/trade area with more info.

Again, thanks Bob!

Navin Field in Detroit doesn't look right either. I checked.

[BOB52]

Navin Field

Ty Cobb ocassionally played center field.

[BOB52]

I'm not giving up just yet, but I'm definitely lost. (Lol)

"Legendary Detroit Tiger Ty Cobb steals home in the first inning of the Detroit-Cleveland game in April 1912 at Navin Field."

(View of left field fence and white uniform).

[frankbmd]

I'm not giving up just yet, but I'm definitely lost. (Lol)

"Legendary Detroit Tiger Ty Cobb steals home in the first inning of the Detroit-Cleveland game in April 1912 at Navin Field."

(View of left field fence and white uniform).

Looks like people wearing socks in left field rather than a sign selling socks.

I'm giving up for now.

[powderfinger]

In August of 1912, Cobb was stabbed in the streets of Detroit while involved in a street fight with three men. He was on his way to the train station to catch a train to take him to a road game - in Syracuse, NY. It wasn't unusual for MLB teams to play exhibitions against minor league clubs during the season back in the day. A little research might indicate a minor league city was where the photo was taken. Also, MLB teams played many minor league teams on their way back north after spring training. A check of the Free Press might yield some information on where the Tigers played in 1912 besides major league cities.

[JollyElm]

After racking my frickin' brain for 2 days now, (with apologies to Dr. Richard Kimble) "And I just found a big piece!!!!!"

Look down this page at the 3 photographs of Nap Lajoie:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?40306-Historical-Archival-Photographs&

In the bottom most picture, if you follow his right hand into the distance you see the pole (or smokestack) and the dark rooflike structure seen in the Cobb photograph. It doesn't say what stadium this is, but now we have a lot more info.

[BOB52]

Looks right to me ... Good Job, JollyElm ... Back To Square One ... Nap Lajoie appears to be wearing road grays, too.

[BigJJ]

I believe it is Bennett Park

[BigJJ]

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/pan/6a34000/6a34400/6a34430r.jpg
Picture vertical smokestacks? That structure. And height of wall looks right

[horzverti]

Although I am 100% sure of nothing...ever, I strongly believe Cobb is floating above the NY Highlanders' Hilltop Park in my picture. Now all I need to see is the same advertising sign IN Hilltop Park in 1912. Please stay tuned...

[JollyElm]

More info at that site:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?40306-Historical-Archival-Photographs/page4

Go down the page a little to the overhead shot of Hilltop Park in NY. The rightfield distant architecture is similar to the Nap Lajoie pic stuff. And our old friend the smokestack is there, too.

[BOB52]

According to Wikipedia, Bennett Park closed after the 1911 season ...

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennett_Park_(Detroit)

[horzverti]

..and the funny thing is that in 1910 at the same Hilltop Park this photo was taken by Charles...have you seen this one before?

To quote Mr. Baseball Bob Uecker, "nice, real nice."

[BOB52]

No fair! I call foul ball! How was I supposed to know it was the top of a building and a smoke stack in horzvert's photo? The background is blurry and I thought the smoke stack was a dang lamp post. Shows how much I know. (Lol)

BOOB52

[BigJJ]

If it is 1912, I think it is Navin.

[JollyElm]

..and the funny thing is that in 1910 at the same Hilltop Park this photo was taken by Charles...have you seen this one before?

To quote Mr. Baseball Bob Uecker, "nice, real nice."

I stood there!! My girlfriend was at Columbia Presbyterian and they have a home plate plaque/monument outside, so I ambled away 90 feet through the plants and bramble and stood there grinning. Although no one around me had any clue, it was really cool being right on that spot.

[BigJJ]

What am I missing here guys? You see the sign in the famous sliding picture? Is my eyesight that poor?
Edited to add that I think you mean that the height of the wall and background behind the wall are correct, but I'm still leaning toward Bennett/Navin.

[JollyElm]

What am I missing here guys? You see the sign in the famous sliding picture? Is my eyesight that poor?

No, that pic is just a tangent.

[BOB52]

I'm glad this isn't over cuz I'm not convinced either that the park has been identified. So I've still got a shot at it and redeem myself. But the jolly guy definitely got his pics right. I'm impressed.

BOB52

[horzverti]

I stood there!! My girlfriend was at Columbia Presbyterian and they have a home plate plaque/monument outside, so I ambled away 90 feet through the plants and bramble and stood there grinning. Although no one around me had any clue, it was really cool being right on that spot.

AWESOME story Darren. I can completely understand why you didn't slide into that spot...I am sure you wanted to.

[BigJJ]

May be on target with Hilltop look at height of White Rock ad and background from 1911
Was the ad replaced for 1912?
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?83863-Hilltop-Park/page3
Edited link

[BigJJ]

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?83863-Hilltop-Park/page3

Edited link

[JollyElm]

Here's my logical conclusion. Of course, I'm assuming the old photographs are marked correctly as to where the photos were taken.

The Ty Cobb photo has the same background structures as the Lajoie photo, marked in red. There's also the ubiquitous smokestack.
The Lajoie photo has the same background elements (and probably a million more that I didn't assess) as the overhead picture of Hilltop Park, marked in blue.

I'm all CSI over here. Haha. To me, it's undoubtably Hilltop Park, NYC.

63851

[BigJJ]

You nailed it!!! Awesome

[BigJJ]

Photographer was on the ground, added a degree of difficulty
That was a good riddle

[BOB52]

I'm about 99.9% convinced it's Hilltop Park. And while I'm chewing over the remaining .1%, I thought I'd share this color photo of Hilltop.

[BOB52]

I'm now 100% convinced that its Hilltop Park. However, check out the pictures below, as well as the numerous others on Flickr. Every one of them is said to be from 1912. But I cannot find a single one among them that shows the Wayne Knit Hoisery ad. Which leads me to suspect one of two things ...

1. They changed the ad displays periodically during the 1912 season.

or

2. The photo was not actually taken in 1912 but is from some other year.

* If you click around enough you will see every part of the outfield walls - left - center - and right. Of course, were are only concerned with the right field wall. The link shows about 100 similar photos.

Link: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=hilltop%20park%201912#page=0

[BOB52]

I've gone through the 1912 Flickr photos three times now and don't see the Wayne ad. If I missed seeing it somehow, and someone else finds it, please let us know. And please know that I am not trying to be difficult here, but rather that I'm just trying to help and establish full accuracy.

Thanks.

Bob

[BOB52]

Check out this cropped image from 1911. I'm not 100% certain, but the ad to the left of Coronet might be the right one and possibly says ...

Wayne Knit Nylons

Check it out and see what you think. I even did a zoom on it but I'm still not sure.

BOB52

PS ~ I just realized that's the same dang picture I posted earlier on the previous page, which said it was 1912. Let's forget about the date for the moment and try and determine if its a Wayne ad or not.

Thanks.

Bob

[BOB52]

Oops ... I meant to insert the whole picture but forgot. Here it is in case someone wants to work with it.

[BOB52]

For comparison ...

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

Even though I cannot make out every detail, nor whether the photo is dated 1911 or 1912, I am confident that the red arrow points to the sign in question, which is the same overall color - same type of writing - and right location in relation to the smoke stack.

So I'm calling it quits with this, at least as far as any more searching goes, and hope the photo sells for a zillion dollars on eBay.

Good Luck.

BOB52

[BOB52]

Sorry bout that ... too many dang buttons to click. Here's the pic.

[BOB52]

Final PS ~

I just realized the confusion. That same exact photo is shown twice on Flickr. One is Dated 1911 and one is dated 1912. So take your pick, but I like the 1912 one the best. :) But please don't ask me why the bottom part of the sign is painted white, that's for a photo expert to figure out. Maybe they painted it white at some point so the words "Makes The Home Run Right" would stand out.

Bob

[BOB52]

Here's where I got the words The Home Run ...

[frankbmd]

Glad to see this resolved. Sorry to bow out so early. I had a great night's sleep.

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

I fully realize that your primary question pertained to where your photo was taken and not when, which has been fully established by JollyElm's amazing find. However, I just noticed a peculiarity that I thought you might be interested in seeing. Take a close look at the two pictures below, both of which are from Flickr (Library of Congress) and dated 1912. Notice how the upper sign that advertises "Venus Pencils" seems to be in two different positions in relation to the signs beneath it. I studied this for quite a while on these two pictures as well as some others, and do not think this oddity is simply the result of different camera angles, but it might be. What do you make of it? In your photo there is definitely no other sign above the fence. The only thing I can think of to explain this would be if the Venus Pencils sign was not on top of the others, but rather a seperate sign altogether and set back a distance from the fence. (I'm also including a 1912 ad for Venus Pencils that I found on eBay).

Bob

eBay Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1912-VENUS-PERFECT-LEAD-PENCIL-AD-ADVERTISEMENT-AMERICAN-LEAD-NEW-YORK-/270955693079?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%2 52BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D15%26pmod%3D 390120069149%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D85281342594993076 06

[steve B]

I think it's camera angle, and that the Venus sign is actually on a building behind the wall.

Steve B

[BOB52]

steve B ~

Good eye. I'm sure you're right. Nothing else makes sense. But rather than being "on" the buildings, I suspect they are billboards "on top" of the buildings, which is basically the same thing and explains the oddity either way.

Ocassionally I may look around to see if I can find a clear shot of the "Wayne Hosiery" portion of the fence, but for the time being there is no question that the location has been established and the mystery solved.

I'm glad I could be a part of this and hope I didn't overstay my welcome.

BOB52 ... and, yes, 52 is the year I was born. (Old guys rule). :D

[BOB52]

horzvert ~

If there happened to be a connection between your photo and the following incident that took place at Hilltop Park in April of 1912, it might add some additional interest and value to it. But even if your photo was taken on the same day, proving it could be a monumental task. I wonder how many times the Tigers played at Hilltop during the 1912 season? But more importantly, if Ty Cobb was suspended, I wonder how many times he played at Hilltop in 1912? (Maybe only once). And from what I've read, the Hilltop Heckler incident is a historic part of the Cobb legacy.

BOB52

On May 15, 1912, after being heckled for several innings, Cobb leaped the fence and attacked his tormentor. He was suspended indefinitely by league president Ban Johnson, but his suspension was eventually reduced to 10 days and $50. The Tigers went on a one-game strike for the next game, at Philadelphia, but rather than forfeit, the Tigers owners filled the lineup with a makeshift group of ex-college players and whoever else could be found. Coincidentally, one of the substitutes, Billy Maharg, would become involved behind-the-scenes in the Black Sox Scandal seven years later.

Link: http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilltop_Park

[horzverti]

I remember reading of that incident. If you look at the photo, you can see a bandage on his thumb. Hmmm....Coincidence? or No coincidence?

Again, thanks to all for the input. PC problems today aside, I'll be putting the photo up on eBay tonight.

Thanks much!

Curt

[BOB52]

Long story short ... (sort of)

I discovered that after the heckler incident in April, the Tigers played the Highlander's about 17 more times in 1912, about half of which were road games played in Hilltop park. So unless someone can determine something otherwise, I'd say it would be almost impossible to say exactly which of the approximately 8 road games your photo was taken at. However, I did read where Cobb played center field during most of the 1912 season, but figuring out which games he might have played right field is another thing. Not to mention the possibility of the picture being posed. As for the white tape on his thumb, the only reference I could find regarding a thumb injury was in 1914 when he broke it while beating up on a butcher who apparently insulted his wife. I read that during the heckler incident in April that Cobb mostly used his cleats on the guy. And the guy he tangled with didn't even have any fingers. Apparently he lost them in some kind of a machinery related accident.

All in all, that's one cool photo you got there and a great little mystery to go with it, which I'm glad I could be a part of. I will watch for the photo on eBay and might even bid on it if it doesn't go over $10.00. (Lol) Just kidding. I hope you get top dollar.

BOB52

[BOB52]

JollyElm ~

Congratulations again for identifying Hilltop Park. When you get a minute please tell us how you made the connection.

Thanks.

Bob

[JollyElm]

JollyElm ~

Congratulations again for identifying Hilltop Park. When you get a minute please tell us how you made the connection.

Thanks.

Bob


Hey Bob.
Quite frankly, it was mostly a matter of luck. I get obsessed with puzzles and brain teasers and what not, so when I stumbled upon this thread I wanted nothing more than to solve it.

Here's my method of CSI on this case (since they always use Who tunes for the theme songs, press play on my personal favorite, 'Love Ain't For Keeping'):

Even though the OP posted it was a shot from 1912, I first theorized that it's possible it may have been from a year or two before or after that date, although I knew it was a longshot. My main thinking there was that Bennett Park (home of the Tigers) closed in 1911 and Fenway opened in 1912, so maybe it could have been taken in one of the stadiums that were no longer opened in 1912. And when I saw a couple of pictures of Cobb, supposedly taken in 1912, that showed him in a different type of away uniform than in the photo in question, I realized looking from around 1910 to 1914 would be the way to go.

Then I theorized that the photo was taken looking towards centerfield or right field and didn't show the left field wall. It was a small leap of faith that seemed to be correct.

And then the hard work started. I began pouring through seemingly untold hundreds of photographs on-line from that timeframe looking into the distance on the right field sides. I couldn't tell what those background structures were in the original Cobb photo, as they seemed to me to look like the top of some sort of amusement ride and not buildings, but I kept an open mind. Then there was our old friend the smokestack. So I began just going through picture after picture after picture looking for that wavy black shape and a smokestack...and that's when I serendipitously stumbled upon the Lajoie photo with those exact shapes far off in the distance. Since he was also in his away uniform, it most likely eliminated Cleveland (as well as Detroit) as the sight of the photograph.

Since the buildings in the Lajoie photo seemed to be in the style of my hometown, NYC, I started looking for anything Hilltop Park related from that era...and now your lead detective takes off his sunglasses gives a look of frustration and grumbles..."and then I hit it out of the park!"

[Scott Garner]

Hey Bob.
Quite frankly, it was mostly a matter of luck. I get obsessed with puzzles and brain teasers and what not, so when I stumbled upon this thread I wanted nothing more than to solve it.

Here's my method of CSI on this case (since they always use Who tunes for the theme songs, press play on my personal favorite, 'Love Ain't For Keeping'):

Even though the OP posted it was a shot from 1912, I first theorized that it's possible it may have been from a year or two before or after that date, although I knew it was a longshot. My main thinking there was that Bennett Park (home of the Tigers) closed in 1911 and Fenway opened in 1912, so maybe it could have been taken in one of the stadiums that were no longer opened in 1912. And when I saw a couple of pictures of Cobb, supposedly taken in 1912, that showed him in a different type of away uniform than in the photo in question, I realized looking from around 1910 to 1914 would be the way to go.

Then I theorized that the photo was taken looking towards centerfield or right field and didn't show the left field wall. It was a small leap of faith that seemed to be correct.

And then the hard work started. I began pouring through seemingly untold hundreds of photographs on-line from that timeframe looking into the distance on the right field sides. I couldn't tell what those background structures were in the original Cobb photo, as they seemed to me to look like the top of some sort of amusement ride and not buildings, but I kept an open mind. Then there was our old friend the smokestack. So I began just going through picture after picture after picture looking for that wavy black shape and a smokestack...and that's when I serendipitously stumbled upon the Lajoie photo with those exact shapes far off in the distance. Since he was also in his away uniform, it most likely eliminated Cleveland (as well as Detroit) as the sight of the photograph.

Since the buildings in the Lajoie photo seemed to be in the style of my hometown, NYC, I started looking for anything Hilltop Park related from that era...and now your lead detective takes off his sunglasses gives a look of frustration and grumbles..."and then I hit it out of the park!"

Darren,
Impressive detective work. Good job!! ;)

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

Good job on the eBay listing. I will be watching it with interest. I hope you don't mind my posting this link for others to enjoy ...

eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/400298575004?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

jollyElm ~

Thanks for sharing your detective talents with us. You are to be commended. If possible, I would like to employ your talents once again in trying to help make sense of something that continues to puzzle me involving the right field fence itself ...

Just this morning I came across another thread involving Hilltop Park. The thread is from a website called "Baseball Fever" and is dated 2008. The thread starter is an individual by the name of Philmore. The thread is 4 pages long and includes some great vintage photos of Hilltop. The link I am providing goes straight to page 2 where I found some interesting photos of the right field fence, a couple of which I have included below.

First of all, here's the link to page 2 ...

Hilltop Thread: Page 2 of 4: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?83863-Hilltop-Park/page2

Scroll down to Reply #39 and you will find the pictures I'm referring to which are dated 1912. Now take a real close look at the portion of the fence to the left of the "Coronet Dry Gin" sign. This is the best close up I have found so far and is similar to the one I posted earlier with the red arrow and "thought" was the Wayne Knit Hosiery sign. But upon closer inspection I now believe it is "not" the Wayne Knit Hosiery sign. Especially notice the style of the W in horzverti's photo and compare it to whatever that letter is in the other photos. Also compare the wording at the bottom of both photos. After studying them at some length, I am now of the opinion that they are two different signs. Please check them out for yourself using you xray detective eyes and see what you make of it. And if you agree that the sign in the 2008 thread doesn't say Wayne Knit Hosiery, perhaps you can figure out what it does say.

There is absolutely no question in my mind that horzverti's Ty Cobb photo ...

1. Is from 1912.
2. Was taken at Hilltop Park.
3. Reads "Wayne Knit ..." on the fence.

However, I do question the wording on the other photos. And if the other photos are in fact from 1912 and do not say "Wayene Knit Hosiery," then exactly where is the real 1912 "Wayne Knit Hosiery" sign"

I hope I'm not driving anyone nuts with this. Its just that I'm puzzled and need some help figuring it out.

Something about the fence just doesn't jive, but I'm not sure what it is.

Will the "Real" Wayne Knit Hosiery fence please stand up!

Thanks.

BOB52

PS ~

Just for the fun of it I am including a picture of the "Venus Pencils" sign that was discussed earlier in this thread. It too is from the 2008 Baseball Fever thread and is shown there on reply #37

[BOB52]

Dang ...

I forgot to include this 1912 Wayne Knit ad to confirm the wording ...

[BOB52]

Hilltop Park 1909 ... I'm currently looking to confirm 1910 and 1911. The last game every played at Hilltop was in October of 1912. It was demolished in 1914.

[BOB52]

The Hilltop photo on this link is said to be circa 1910. Which it may or may not be, especially considering the word "circa" is used. But irregardless of the exact date, it is definitely different from anything I've seen from either 1909 or 1912.

After opening the link, be sure to click-click on the photo for some great zoomed close ups. (No "Wayne Knit" or "Corono Dry Gin")

I tried saving and posting a pic, but it wouldn't transfer properly. I think it was too large.

A confirmed 1911 is what I'd really like to find.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hilltop_Park_circa_1910.jpg

[BOB52]

1905 ...

The buildings in the background appear to be still under construction? No cathedral type domes on top. (No Wayne Knit)

[horzverti]

horzverti ~

Good job on the eBay listing. I will be watching it with interest. I hope you don't mind my posting this link for others to enjoy ...

eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/400298575004?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

jollyElm ~

Thanks for sharing your detective talents with us. You are to be commended. If possible, I would like to employ your talents once again in trying to help make sense of something that continues to puzzle me involving the right field fence itself ...

Just this morning I came across another thread involving Hilltop Park. The thread is from a website called "Baseball Fever" and is dated 2008. The thread starter is an individual by the name of Philmore. The thread is 4 pages long and includes some great vintage photos of Hilltop. The link I am providing goes straight to page 2 where I found some interesting photos of the right field fence, a couple of which I have included below.

First of all, here's the link to page 2 ...

Hilltop Thread: Page 2 of 4: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?83863-Hilltop-Park/page2

Scroll down to Reply #39 and you will find the pictures I'm referring to which are dated 1912. Now take a real close look at the portion of the fence to the left of the "Coronet Dry Gin" sign. This is the best close up I have found so far and is similar to the one I posted earlier with the red arrow and "thought" was the Wayne Knit Hosiery sign. But upon closer inspection I now believe it is "not" the Wayne Knit Hosiery sign. Especially notice the style of the W in horzverti's photo and compare it to whatever that letter is in the other photos. Also compare the wording at the bottom of both photos. After studying them at some length, I am now of the opinion that they are two different signs. Please check them out for yourself using you xray detective eyes and see what you make of it. And if you agree that the sign in the 2008 thread doesn't say Wayne Knit Hosiery, perhaps you can figure out what it does say.

There is absolutely no question in my mind that horzverti's Ty Cobb photo ...

1. Is from 1912.
2. Was taken at Hilltop Park.
3. Reads "Wayne Knit ..." on the fence.

However, I do question the wording on the other photos. And if the other photos are in fact from 1912 and do not say "Wayene Knit Hosiery," then exactly where is the real 1912 "Wayne Knit Hosiery" sign"

I hope I'm not driving anyone nuts with this. Its just that I'm puzzled and need some help figuring it out.

Something about the fence just doesn't jive, but I'm not sure what it is.

Will the "Real" Wayne Knit Hosiery fence please stand up!

Thanks.

BOB52

PS ~

Just for the fun of it I am including a picture of the "Venus Pencils" sign that was discussed earlier in this thread. It too is from the 2008 Baseball Fever thread and is shown there on reply #37

Hi Bob,

No, I have no problem with you including the link to the auction. The more exposure, the better. Thank you.

It seems that you are becoming an expert on early 1900s Hilltop Park. Sometime in the not so distant future there will be another Hilltop Park question and you will be the guy to answer it. Thanks so much for your help. :D

Curt

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

Thanks. I'm determined to find your "Wayne Knit Hosiery" fence if it kills me!

BOB52

[BOB52]

I think I just found the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" fence. Everything looks right, including the top words as well as the bottom words that are not white. But according to the site where I found this photo, it claims to be from ... 1911

The bottom words should be ... Makes The Home Run Right

Here's the link. Scroll to post #80. Its the pic on the left.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?40306-Historical-Archival-Photographs/page4

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

I just did some super-zooms on the photo and it does say "Wayne Knit Hosiery." As for the 1911 date, I cannot comfirm that other than what is stated on the website where I found it. But based on this current eveidence, it highly suggest that your photo is from 1911 and not 1912. Especially when you take into account that all of the 1912 photos of Hilltop Park show a different sign that has white words on the bottom.

What say you?

BOB52

[BOB52]

Ty Cobb Baseball Card. 1911... Gray Uniform ~ White Buttons.

eBay w/zoom feature: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1911-D304-Brunners-Ty-Cobb-PSA-3-/200763328044?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item2ebe6d462c

[horzverti]

Ty Cobb Baseball Card. 1911... Gray Uniform ~ White Buttons.

eBay w/zoom feature: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1911-D304-Brunners-Ty-Cobb-PSA-3-/200763328044?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item2ebe6d462c

Here is where I found details on the uniform by year:

http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.org/dressed_to_the_nines/uniforms.asp?league=AL&city=Detroit&lowYear=1911&highYear=1913&sort=year&increment=9

Regarding the photo on the card...sometimes these old photos' images were changed a bit by the artist as they applied their "touches" to the cards' pictures.

I am open to all suggestions regarding the date of the Peaches' uniform in my (soon to be another's) photo.

Thanks again Bob.

By the way, if you like all the old stadium stuff, you should take a look at Charles Conlon's work. Maybe you are already familiar with him. He is my personal favorite. Those photos and negs I am keeping. :)

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

I trust you believe me when I say that my recent research was not an attempt to confirm or refute any dates, but rather because it was bugging me that I couldn't find a decent picture of the fence showing the "Wayne Knit" advertisment.

Below is another picture of Cobb at Hilltop Park. The site where I found it makes a 1911 reference to Cobb, but I'm not sure if the photo is actually from 1911 or not. I have a feeling if we look around enough we will be able to confirm all of this one way or another. But I have to admit, I am definitely leaning toward the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" fence as being at Hilltop in 1911 and not 1912.

Thanks.

Bob

Link with 1911 reference: http://georgiainfo.galileo.usg.edu/tdgh-jul/jul04.htm

[BOB52]

Just for the fun of it, check out this fraudulent website ...

http://www.clipartof.com/portfolio/jvpd/photo/tyrus-raymond-cobb-in-full-uniform-for-the-detroit-tigers-baseball-team-1086386.html

I guess I'm just a trouble maker from way back because I'm thinking about sending them a harshly worded eMail telling them to do their homework. They are offering variuos sized reproduction photos of Ty Cobb and claiming he is depicted in a "full uniform" from 1914. And they're asking a whopping $30.00 for what they call a large print measuring 4" x 6" Now take a close look at the background. Everyone here will immediately recognize it as Hilltop Park. But how can it possibly be a 1914 photo of Ty Cobb at Hilltop Park when the very last game ever played at Hilltop was in October of 1912? In 1914, Hilltop was either already demolished or soon scheduled to be.

BOB52 ... "The Trouble Maker" (Lol) :rolleyes:

[BOB52]

I was able to figure out what the other sign said that I originally (but incorrectly) thought said "Wayne Knit Hosiery" but had white writing along the bottom. It's actually ...

The Winning Pennant
Young's Hats
None Better Made
Stores on Broadway and Fifth Avenue

1. The first picture is the one I posted earlier with the red arrow.

2. The second picture is opening day 1908 and displayed on a different location of the fence. (This is the best close-up I could find).

Link: http://mightyflynn.tumblr.com/post/4452364585/hilltop-park-opening-day-1908-new-york-new

[BOB52]

This will likely conclude my contibution to this thread. As much as I would like to find a good close up of the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" portion of the fence, I have looked everywhere I can think of and it appears that one may not exist. And if one does exist, I have no clue where to search that I haven't already looked. So in conclusion, I'd like to sum up by saying it is my opinion that ...

1. The Ty Cobb photograph was taken near the right field fence at Hilltop Park, New York. (Exact game unknown).

2. The advertisment on the fence reads "Wayne Knit Hosiery/Makes The Home Run Right."

3. The photograph was taken during the 1911 baseball season.

Thanks for allowing me to indulge myself ... indulging is what I do best!

Respectfully,

BOB52

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

I realize that by this time next week your Ty Cobb photo will be on it's way to it's new owner and that will be the end of it. However, like all good detectives, I am required to report my findings as new evidence presents itself. In other words, based on some information that came to my attention recently, I now suspect that your photo might have been taken as early as 1910. In support of this new theory of mine, please consider the following ...

1. According to numerous accounts, especially the following New York Times newspaper article, the center field bleachers at Hilltop Park were not available for use by spectators until April of 1911. After opening the link, scroll to .. (All from the Times, click to enlarge), where you can read the entire article for yourself. Use the + that pops up to read.

Link: http://1911athletics.blogspot.com/2011_04_01_archive.html

2. Other sources, including Wikipedia, indicate the center field bleachers were not available until 1912. But irregardless of those other accounts, the New York Times article clearly establishes the correct date as 1911.

3. The very last game ever played at Hilltop Park was in October of 1912.

4. Thus, any and all photos of Hilltop Park that show the center field bleachers have to be from either 1911 or 1912. The center field bleachers did not exist in 1910.

5. Now closely examine the two photographs below.

1st photo ... Clearly shows the center field bleachers in addition to the "Young's Hats" advertisement on the fence. Because of the presence of the bleachers, this photo has to be from either 1911 or 1912.

2nd photo ... Clearly shows what I have confirmed to be the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" advertisment on the fence. However, notice the two buildings on the left and that there are no center field bleachers in front of them. Because of the absence of the the bleachers, this photo has to be from 1910 at the latest. (Are the bleachers not visible because of camera angle? I seriously doubt it! There are at least three more signs to the left of the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" sign. Whereas in the other photo there are only about two signs to the left of the "Young's Hats" sign. Plus, I can't find a single post-1910 photo of the bleachers that doesn't include the buildings behind it).

Please note that my findings are not 100% conclusive just yet, but with a little more research and eximination of other photos, both with and without the bleachers, I believe my new theory can either be confirmed or refuted depending on the evidence presented.

Please don't scalp me for this and know that my only reason for continuing this quandry is because I love doing research, especially when it involves a mystery.

Question: Based on this new evidence, do you think your Ty Cobb photo is 1910 ~ 1911 ~ or 1912? For me it appears they removed the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" sign in 1910 and replaced with the "Young's Hats" sign in 1911 when they built the new bleachers. Thus, at this juncture I honestly believe your Ty Cobb photo was taken in 1910.

Sincerely,

BOB52

[BOB52]

To assist those who are interested in pursuing this further, I believe the "Flickr/Library of Congress" photographs are one of the most reliable sources for establishing accurate dates related to Hilltop Park. No doubt there are a few questionable one's, but for the most part I believe they have been researched by experts and filed accordingly. You can even change the search results by adding words such as Highlanders ~ Baseball ~ 1910 ~ 1911 ~ 1912 ~ etc; in order to find additional photographs.

The main thing to remember is that the center field bleachers were first used in 1911. Look closely for the "Young's Hats" advertisment with the white words on the bottom of it. And should you happen to find another photo showing the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" sign, please share it with the rest of us.

The photo below is from the New York Times newspaper article dated April 30, 1911

Thanks a lot.

BOB52

Flickr Link: http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=new+york+hilltop+park&m=text

[BOB52]

Please ignore this reply. I intended to post some painted images to help clairfy the wording on the bottom picture in my next to the last post, but I messed up on it. Please refer to the new insert instead. That's basically what I was hoping to achieve. The only thing missing from the insert is the word HOSIERY. But hopefully you get the general idea.

Thanks again.

Bob

[BOB52]

Here's the picture I have been looking for! Look close at the bottom of the fence (just below his hands) where it says ...

MAKES THE HOME RUN RIGHT

Reminders:

(1) All of the 1912 photos show "Young's Hats" on this portion of the fence.
(2) The centerfield bleachers were built in 1911 and did not exist in 1910.

This photo is dated and was taken in ...

1911

BOB52

[BOB52]

Here are the links where I found the photo ...

Link 1: http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/2163531274/

Link 2: http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/sets/72157603624867509/with/2163531274/

[horzverti]

Thanks again Bob. There are bids on the photo, so I don't think that I'll change the date. I guess Dressed to the Nines uniform database was incorrect in this instance. They do have a lot of great old uni info out there though.
Bob, you are a top-notch sleuth. Many thanks again my friend. :)
If there is anything I can help you out with someday, please do not hesitate to ask.

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

Thank You!

I sure hope everyone can see the wording I referred to. If not, I will strike out and be booted out of the ballpark. All anyone has to do is save the photo to their photo files and then zoom and/or enhance the color like I do and the wording stands out clearly. I can't speak for everyone, but I can actually see it with the naked eye.

By the way, I placed a bid on your photo but was immediately out bid. So what's up with that? (Lol) ;) Just kidding ... I know how it works.

One thing I wondered about regarding the uniform database images, and other references like it, are the dark collars vs light collars. I think in your photo Cobb is actually sporting a dark collar, but that it is difficult to make out because it's buttoned-up around his neck.

Anyhoo ... All is well that ends well. And all I can think of to ask at the moment is, throw me another curve ball one of these days and let's see what happens. I'll bet you a root beer that I strike out next time.

Later alligator.

Bob

[BOB52]

To top things off, I just gotta share this "painting" of Cobb sliding into third. I like it so much, I may even order a print someday. Absolutely incredible!

[BOB52]

Last but not least ...

Detroit Tigers uniforms from database.

1st .... 1911 Dark Collar

2nd ... 1912 Light Collar

Note: I've seen numerous examples of dark collars that are "light" colored on the underside.

[BOB52]

Detroit Tiger wearing 1911 uniform showing a dark collar with a light underside. (Just one example of many I've seen).

Link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/2163861686/

[BOB52]

Please don't think I spend 24/7 on this, I don't. But I do continue to look from time to time. And glad I did because these are the best Wayne / Wayne Kn I've found so far ~ 1911. And you won't need a magnifying glass this time.

BOB52

Link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/2162688797/

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

I just realized something that's going to put a slight twist on things. Hopefully I can present this coherently enough so you won't think I'm losing my marbles. But as it turns out, the "Wayne Knit Hosiery" sign was displayed for two seasons - 1910 and 1911. Which means your Ty Cobb photo could have been taken during either one of those two years. But just which year I'm not sure yet and am currently looking for clues to determine that. The following will best illustrate how I came to this conclusion ...

Photos:

1st 1911 ... Wayne Knit sign showing bleachers and "White Label" sign to the left.

2nd 1911 ... From New York Times dated April 30, 1911. Impossible to make out the Wayne Knit sign, but I am able to see the "White Lable" sign to the left. Shows bleachers.

3rd 1911 ... Makes The Home Run Right. Shows bleachers and "White Label" sign to the left.

4th 1910 ... No bleachers. Shows "White Label" sign to the right.

In conclusion ... It appears the fences were either re-painted or sections moved as needed to accomodate the new bleachers that were first used during the 1911 season. (The large "Bull Durham" sign was moved from time to time as well).

Unfortunately your photo doesn't show what was to the left or right of it so it may be difficult if not impossible to determine which of the two years it is from. However, I will continue to study all of this for clues and hopefully be able to narrow it down eventually. If anyone else sees a clue like camera angle or something like that, please let us know.

This may seem like a lot to do about nothing, but, as I said earlier, I'm having fun with it. (I just hope I've got all of my ducks ... er, I mean "photos" in a row here).

Thanks.

BOB52

[BOB52]

Clue ...

The "Bull Durham" sign is positioned in center field in 1909. But is positioned in right field in 1911 and 1912. Thus, if the "Bull Durham" sign is not shown in the (last) 1910 photo above, which also does not show the bleachers, then my assumption at this juncture is that the Ty Cobb photo was taken in 1910. If this doesn't make the least bit of sense to anyone, then maybe I have lost my marbles. Or maybe I'm just full of "bull."

[horzverti]

Hello Bob,

I added a revision to my auction to let potential buyers know that this photo is from 1910. I also added a little thank you to you for all of your research. I think a second job in Cooperstown may be in your future. :)

Curt

[BOB52]

Curt ~

Wow! Thank you. You just made my day. I don't know about getting a job with Copperstown, but I do feel like a celebrity just to be mentioned in your auction, which is at a whopping $100.00 now ~ congratulations ~ I'm sure it will go even higher.

By the way, does this mean I get a percentage of the proceeds? I have devoted about 12 hours to this, and at $20.00 per hour it comes to ... well, I'm not sure exactly how much, but it's a "lot." (Just kidding, of course, but I couldn't help myself). ;)

How much is a Ty Cobb photo like yours worth, anyway?

Good luck with the auction ... I am following it with renewed interest.

Thanks again.

Bob

[slidekellyslide]

Bob, you did a heckuva lot of research on this Cobb photo and you are to be commended...I take back my (somewhat rude) comments in your other thread about your town team photo...if anyone is going to identify that town it might just be you. :)

[BOB52]

sks ~

Thanks a lot, seriously, but there's no need to take back anything. In fact, you came up with basically the same thing the Hall of Fame did, 1900 to 1910, which is what I call circa 1905. As for finding the right grain elevator, the odds of that are a million-to-one. I have already examined at least 500, with no possible leads in sight. But I aint givin' up just yet. I might get lucky.

Bob

PS ~ For those who are wondering what we're talking about, here's the link to that "other" thread.

Link: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151286

[slidekellyslide]

Well, I take them back anyway...I didn't know I was dealing with someone as determined as you are. Good luck in your quest. :)

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

Congratulations on the sale of you Ty Cobb photo. I'm not sure what the true value of something like that is, but $149.00 sounds good to me.

Thanks again for sharing and allowing us to be a part of it.

Bob