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View Full Version : Autograph Help - Are these real? Williams, DiMaggio, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Ali.


soxfan12
05-13-2012, 11:02 PM
I just picked up some autographs at a local auction for pretty good deals. But after getting them home and researching them, I'm not 100% sure they're authentic. I've compared them all to PSA-verified signatures of each of these players online and, to my untrained eye, they seem legitimate. But I'm new to autograph collecting and I was hoping someone with more experience might be able to offer an opinion or two. I'd hate to start building my collection with fakes. Thank you very much for any thoughts you can offer.
Tony

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o87/Balony5/Autos/WillieMays.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o87/Balony5/Autos/TedWilliams.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o87/Balony5/Autos/MuhammadAli.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o87/Balony5/Autos/MickeyMantle.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o87/Balony5/Autos/JoeDiMaggio.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o87/Balony5/Autos/HankAaron.jpg

travrosty
05-14-2012, 12:16 AM
sorry, these look bad. can you get your money back?

bad ali for sure, he never signed like that, common forgery of muhammad ali.

usually these bad autos run in packs, because they are usually consigned by the same people. find one bad one, more than likely you will find they are all bad, but others here can confirm it.

soxfan12
05-14-2012, 12:28 AM
Thanks for the response, Travis. I was afraid I might hear that. They clearly came from the same owner, so there is every possibilty they were all bought at the same time and place. I'm sure the auction house didn't know these might be fakes, but I'm hoping we can work something out, so I'm not out all my money. Can I ask what it is with the signatures that makes you say that they're similar to what you've seen around? I would like to know what to keep an eye out for in the future. Thanks again for taking the time and if anyone else has anything to pass along, I'm all ears.

thetruthisoutthere
05-14-2012, 06:37 AM
Just get your money back if you can. Typical Morales certed crap.

thetruthisoutthere
05-14-2012, 08:07 AM
[QUOTE=soxfan12;993130]"I'm sure the auction house didn't know these might be fakes."


Yeah right!!!!

Deertick
05-14-2012, 10:26 AM
Soxfan12,

What part of the country are you in? Can you tell us the name of the auction? Your situation is exactly what a lot of us here are trying to prevent. Hopefully the auction house will work with you, but most will fall back on the "As is, where is".

travrosty
05-14-2012, 10:28 AM
Thanks for the response, Travis. I was afraid I might hear that. They clearly came from the same owner, so there is every possibilty they were all bought at the same time and place. I'm sure the auction house didn't know these might be fakes, but I'm hoping we can work something out, so I'm not out all my money. Can I ask what it is with the signatures that makes you say that they're similar to what you've seen around? I would like to know what to keep an eye out for in the future. Thanks again for taking the time and if anyone else has anything to pass along, I'm all ears.


redsoxfan

if you see them long enough, you can recognize them instantly, if you look at the Ali, the capital M in Muhammad and the h in Muhammad are dead giveaways.

all of this type of forgery looks exactly the same, there is no variation, no personalization, and they are all on glossy 8 x 10 photos, no slips of paper or islamic pamphlets, etc, that you would expect to see also.

scmavl
05-14-2012, 11:11 AM
Arent't the Mantle & Mays on the same type of "lithograph" as the Mantle & Whitey someone posted last week?
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=150719

Fuddjcal
05-14-2012, 11:22 AM
Can I ask what it is with the signatures that makes you say that they're similar to what you've seen around? I would like to know what to keep an eye out for in the future. Thanks again for taking the time and if anyone else has anything to pass along, I'm all ears.

The Mantle is horrible as is the Dimaggio.

Start by learning the basics, like ALI & Mantle. There are several studies and collectors around that can help. Put in a couple hours a day (it's fun) learning the differences and the fakes will just start to jump right out at you after a few weeks.

As for the Mantle...The M's (1/2 moons) are horribly shaped and shaky. Mickey didn't dot his "c". The "ick" is, well ICK, with the K appearing buffoonish. The interaction between the "Ma" is horrible with the "a" appearing cartoonish. While the "n" isn't bad, the relationship to the "tle" is horrid and the base line is sickening. All in All, not 1 thing really makes this looks good.

It gets 0 (ZERO) points out of 10 on Fudd's scale from 1-10. Make your own scale and only buy 9's and 10's regardless of COA's.

NOW GO GET YOUR MONEY BACK!!!!!Run, don't walk and don't ever make the same mistake, buying on impulse with-out doing your homework. If you don't want to waste your time doing that, don't waste your time with autographs altogether.

Not too many are going to know Ali like Travis and there are many that can help you with Mantle and the others. Good Luck

soxfan12
05-14-2012, 07:33 PM
Thank you all for your input.

Deertick, I'd rather not say the name of the auction house at this point because I don't know that they knowingly sold fake stuff and I don't think it would be fair to out them if they are willing to work with me on this. I will say, though, that I am in New England. And I appreciate you and others trying to keep this sort of thing from happening.

Fuddjcal, thanks, too, for all the details. As I mentioned, I am still only new to collecting and, clearly, didn't know what to look for in my initial inspecting. This won't keep me from collecting further, but I'll now know to be much more careful.

I will be visiting the auction house tomorrow in hopes of clearing this all up. Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to help out.

Republicaninmass
05-14-2012, 07:41 PM
that I am in New England

that is what I was afraid of, I dont want people around here getting ripped off

soxfan12
05-14-2012, 07:47 PM
Thank you. Neither do I. It sucks that it happens anywhere.

Deertick
05-14-2012, 09:13 PM
The bulk seem to be in FL. That may be because I am more aware of the local stuff, or because it seems to be originating here. But I am aware of heavy infestations in Texas and Pennsylvania, and other pockets that show up, as James Wymer recently outed. The only thing we can do is keep the pressure on.

thetruthisoutthere
05-14-2012, 09:17 PM
The bulk seem to be in FL. That may be because I am more aware of the local stuff, or because it seems to be originating here. But I am aware of heavy infestations in Texas and Pennsylvania, and other pockets that show up, as James Wymer recently outed. The only thing we can do is keep the pressure on.

Like Richard always says "It smells of orange juice and beaches."

johnmh71
05-14-2012, 09:34 PM
Did Hank Aaron forget that his first name had an 'n' in it?

Deertick
05-14-2012, 10:20 PM
Like Richard always says "It smells of orange juice and beaches."

Richard is jealous. :p

Soxfan12, is it possible to pm me with the name? It would be helpful to keep them on the radar, regardless of the outcome. I would not "out" them without another transgression (ie. giving you your money back and attempting to resell them next month). We do give credit where warranted when the auctioneers do the right thing.

My goal is to throttle the outlets for this crap, until the scammers are forced to try and sell it on a median when the light is red. Ooh,wait! Even better, when the light is green!

Wymers Auction
05-15-2012, 02:01 AM
Richard is jealous. :p

Soxfan12, is it possible to pm me with the name? It would be helpful to keep them on the radar, regardless of the outcome. I would not "out" them without another transgression (ie. giving you your money back and attempting to resell them next month). We do give credit where warranted when the auctioneers do the right thing.

My goal is to throttle the outlets for this crap, until the scammers are forced to try and sell it on a median when the light is red. Ooh,wait! Even better, when the light is green!
You forgot at the green light they have to swear to be a disabled veteran also. Certainly no disrespect for those wonderful men and ladies in uniform certainly.

RichardSimon
05-15-2012, 07:23 AM
The bulk seem to be in FL. because it seems to be originating here.


You got that right.

RichardSimon
05-15-2012, 07:24 AM
Richard is jealous. :p



As a diehard New Yorker it would take a lot more than sand and orange juice to make me jealous :D:D.
Especially with the Rangers 7 wins away from the Stanley Cup :).

thetruthisoutthere
05-15-2012, 07:25 AM
You got that right.

Ditto.

soxfan12
05-15-2012, 10:44 PM
Just an update for everyone, I went back to the auction house earlier today and I was, thankfully, able to get my money back. I had printed out several articles and pictures from online, including all of your responses in this thread, and the manager was very understanding and refunded 100% of my money, including the buyer's premium and tax.

They said they received a call from someone in Florida (big surprise, it sounds like...) asking if they could sell some autographs at the auction and they asked if they were real. The auction house was told the were and they all came with certificates of authenticity. But, because they are so busy, they didn't double check them all. And, based on their disappointment that they sold fake items and understanding of my situation, I do believe this was an honest mistake and a learning experience for us all.

So, thank you to everyone on here for all of your insight. Because of all your help, I was able to get my money back. And now I'll certainly be more aware of what to look for as I build my collection.

thetruthisoutthere
05-16-2012, 07:18 AM
Just an update for everyone, I went back to the auction house earlier today and I was, thankfully, able to get my money back. I had printed out several articles and pictures from online, including all of your responses in this thread, and the manager was very understanding and refunded 100% of my money, including the buyer's premium and tax.

They said they received a call from someone in Florida (big surprise, it sounds like...) asking if they could sell some autographs at the auction and they asked if they were real. The auction house was told the were and they all came with certificates of authenticity. But, because they are so busy, they didn't double check them all. And, based on their disappointment that they sold fake items and understanding of my situation, I do believe this was an honest mistake and a learning experience for us all.

So, thank you to everyone on here for all of your insight. Because of all your help, I was able to get my money back. And now I'll certainly be more aware of what to look for as I build my collection.

That's great news!!!! You're one of the few who has actually received a refund from this crap that originates from Florida. This crap has been infecting the hobby for a long time.

RichardSimon
05-16-2012, 07:21 AM
Glad to hear it!
I am shocked, shocked to find out that these autographs came from Florida :D.

soxfan12
05-18-2012, 09:57 PM
After thinking about it for a bit, and being encouraged, I thought I'd let you all know where this whole thing originated from. The auction house from which I bought the pictures is Houston Brooks in Maine. I have been going to their auctions for a while and have never seen them do anything that made me wary about their operation, which is part of the reason why I didn't want to mention them. And I think they deserve a lot of credit for how they handled this situation. They also said they aren't going to get the money back from the supplier and were still willing to give me the full refund. So I hope you all can understand why I was a little hesitant to mention them. I just don't want them tarnished for something that, I truly believe, was an honest mistake. They also asked me to leave with them some information from this website and ebay's banned COA list that will give them a starting point for their research the next time something comes in. So, thanks again to you all for the help.

RichardSimon
05-19-2012, 03:22 PM
After thinking about it for a bit, and being encouraged, I thought I'd let you all know where this whole thing originated from. The auction house from which I bought the pictures is Houston Brooks in Maine. I have been going to their auctions for a while and have never seen them do anything that made me wary about their operation, which is part of the reason why I didn't want to mention them. And I think they deserve a lot of credit for how they handled this situation. They also said they aren't going to get the money back from the supplier and were still willing to give me the full refund. So I hope you all can understand why I was a little hesitant to mention them. I just don't want them tarnished for something that, I truly believe, was an honest mistake. They also asked me to leave with them some information from this website and ebay's banned COA list that will give them a starting point for their research the next time something comes in. So, thanks again to you all for the help.

So this crap was sold to an auction house and not consigned?
If it was sold, then it was sold cheap, because the Florida crap sells very cheaply when sold for resale. Chris and I bought test items from what used to be the prime site for this junk and we paid very little, though they hose their buyers on shipping.
Our boy in FLA has produced and sold so much of this junk that he can sell cheaply and still turn a profit.
The crap is flooding the market now in small auctions all over the country.
I hope this thread is highly ranked on Amazon so that people can become aware of what is going on. (sorry brain lock when I wrote this, I meant highly ranked on Google, of course).
Mickey Mantle forgeries.
Ted Williams forgeries
Joe DiMaggio forgeries
Originating in Florida.

Wymers Auction
05-20-2012, 10:54 PM
So this crap was sold to an auction house and not consigned?
If it was sold, then it was sold cheap, because the Florida crap sells very cheaply when sold for resale. Chris and I bought test items from what used to be the prime site for this junk and we paid very little, though they hose their buyers on shipping.
Our boy in FLA has produced and sold so much of this junk that he can sell cheaply and still turn a profit.
The crap is flooding the market now in small auctions all over the country.
I hope this thread is highly ranked on Amazon so that people can become aware of what is going on.
Mickey Mantle forgeries.
Ted Williams forgeries
Joe DiMaggio forgeries
Originating in Florida.
Richard if these guys operate anything like the ones we have around here they leave the auctioneer holding the bag. They take the money and run. I know of a local auctioneer that had to refund over $2000 on a guitar that had tons of fake autos. I also bought counterfeit swell cards from one of these crummy outfits and even after proving to them that they were fake they would not return my money. Auctioneers in my state have 10 days to pay their consignor that does not leave much time and these forgers are aware of this.

RichardSimon
05-21-2012, 09:48 AM
This Florida crap is like a slow moving tsunami. The remnants of it can travel thousands of miles before polluting the countryside.
I was surprised to find out that this stuff is being sold to auctioneers and that they are the ones being stuck.
I only hope that these guys start to instigate legal investigations and try to help put a stop to this.

jgmp123
05-21-2012, 10:57 AM
I have reached the point that if I suspect any autograph/memorabilia and it originated from Florida, always pass....I know that is a broad statement, but not wasting my money...even if it seems like they are giving it away at those prices (which is another dead giveaway that it is a forgery).

Wymers Auction
05-22-2012, 01:52 AM
Richard I believe that it is being consigned, but they are no where to be found when it hits the fan.
So this crap was sold to an auction house and not consigned?
If it was sold, then it was sold cheap, because the Florida crap sells very cheaply when sold for resale. Chris and I bought test items from what used to be the prime site for this junk and we paid very little, though they hose their buyers on shipping.
Our boy in FLA has produced and sold so much of this junk that he can sell cheaply and still turn a profit.
The crap is flooding the market now in small auctions all over the country.
I hope this thread is highly ranked on Amazon so that people can become aware of what is going on. (sorry brain lock when I wrote this, I meant highly ranked on Google, of course).
Mickey Mantle forgeries.
Ted Williams forgeries
Joe DiMaggio forgeries
Originating in Florida.

RichardSimon
05-22-2012, 09:33 AM
It would seem to me that any legit auction house, that cares about their reputation, would do some investigation of items that are consigned to them.
Does this not happen?
I am sure that those that did not are now or in the future paying the consequences.

RichardSimon
05-22-2012, 09:37 AM
I have reached the point that if I suspect any autograph/memorabilia and it originated from Florida, always pass....I know that is a broad statement, but not wasting my money...even if it seems like they are giving it away at those prices (which is another dead giveaway that it is a forgery).


The crap is definitely originating in Florida.
By that I mean the Mantle, DiMaggio and Williams, etc stuff. They have branched out into Koufax, Aaron, Schmidt, etc also.
The "vintage" bogus crap (Cobb, Johnson, Ruth, etc),, well not sure yet but some of it is coming from PA. CC I believe is selling their stuff to smaller auction houses and middle men but there are also some older clever forgers operating now and for a long time. When I say clever I don't mean their work is necessarily very good (though some of it is), but it was clever of them to start dumping their stuff into these smaller auctions.
However, it also seems that their is a new breed of poorly skilled forger out there, and that is why there is so much of this stuff now. It is as bad or worse than the days pre-Operation Bullpen.

jgmp123
05-22-2012, 09:48 AM
Richard,

After reading the book a few years back, it seemed like they were keeping an established team in place...Has that fallen to the side or are they still very active in finding and prosecuting these companies? I have to assume that with the assistance of Operation Bullpen (FBI) they could easily track this crap back to a handful of sources (forgers). Where are Tim Fitzsimmons and John Ferreira when you need them. :-/

RichardSimon
05-22-2012, 10:18 AM
Richard,

After reading the book a few years back, it seemed like they were keeping an established team in place...Has that fallen to the side or are they still very active in finding and prosecuting these companies? I have to assume that with the assistance of Operation Bullpen (FBI) they could easily track this crap back to a handful of sources (forgers). Where are Tim Fitzsimmons and John Ferreira when you need them. :-/

They are still doing what they can.