Henry Reccius HONUS WAGNER card

[iggyman]

Neat outside the hobby find. I really have to start visiting second-hand stores more often. Can you imagine seeing this card in a thrift store and calmly offering to buy 3 pair of used shoes if they throw in the card as part of the purchase.

Any thoughts or observations (any guesses on the hammer price.....)?


http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/pirates/rare-honus-wagner-rookie-card-for-sale-634696/

http://www.lelands.com/Home/HonusWagner

Lovely Day...

[Bicem]

cool find/story.

[g_vezina_c55]

impatient to see the auction result

[ullmandds]

huh...article says 3 are known to exist? I was only aware of the one Hal used to own? Great story though...definitely exciting to see another survive!!!

[bcbgcbrcb]

I know that a lot of research was done regarding the actual date of issue of this card. Can anyone fill me in on the latest?

[bbcard1]

This is an example of a find I think is very cool and something I concur with being significant, but at the same time it doesn't bother me in the least not to have one.

[e107collector]

huh...article says 3 are known to exist? I was only aware of the one Hal used to own? Great story though...definitely exciting to see another survive!!!


Peter, I agree with you. Hal had the only example know.

I wonder if they are somehow thinking of the Henry Reccius cigar box as the second example?

Tony

[bcbgcbrcb]

I know that a lot of research was done regarding the actual date of issue of this card. Can anyone fill me in on the latest?

[drc]

The small town where the card owner lives, Port Townsend WA, is where my sister lives. It's a nice place.

[dstraate]

I've never seen that, but it's a gorgeous card. Why the Authentic rating?

[ullmandds]

I believe the 2 known to exist are both graded A due to the lack of knowledge about them.

[drc]

I don't recall if the other one was graded a number or was graded authentic. I assume it's so rare, they're just playing it safe.

[ullmandds]

i stand corrected...it looks like the other was graded PSA 1! Not sure why this one got an A...who graded it?

[chaddurbin]

hal did great research on the card/brand before he acquired the card up to the point of him selling it. check with archive for the threads. after he sold it no one cared.

wherever he is now thanks to hal i got a cool replica psa reccius wagner from leland's.

[drc]

I remember with Hal's when he was selling, some people voiced they'd prefer another example show up to show it was a real baseball card issue. Well, a few years after the fact, here's a second . . . Now people will complain it's not one-of-one :)

[sb1]

Technically it's a trade card, not a baseball card as other circa 1878-1912 issues that we think of as baseball cards such as E & T cards or even N cards. It would probably fall under the H category IF Burdick had catalogued it, although it is a Cigar advertisement.

[drc]

I've heard that before reasoning and recall that being said when Hal had his. I actually thought of that when I wrote 'baseball card' in my post, but I thought it might slide :)

And, along those lines, I also agree that a post card isn't really a baseball card either.

[chaddurbin]

And, along those lines, I also agree that a post card isn't really a baseball card either.

amen.

[E93]

I don't disagree, but can someone define "trade card" vs. "card"?
JimB

[sb1]

Trade cards were made for merchants to advertise their products, much like a handbill or flyer. Some were specifically made for said merchant, others had a blank box where the merchant could stamp his name.

The cards as we know, N, T & E were inserts or premiums to entice a customer to buy the product, whether it was candy or tobacco. Nearly all of these were comprised of some type of "set" to encourage repeat buying to obtain all of them.

While both are "cards", they had very different intended purposes.

Trade cards were pretty much gone by 1900.

[E93]

Thanks Scott. That is very clear.
JimB

[Bicem]

And, along those lines, I also agree that a post card isn't really a baseball card either.

+1

[barrysloate]

Peck & Snyders are technically trade cards too, but now that they are slabbed they are considered baseball cards.

[Bicem]

Peck & Snyders are technically trade cards too, but now that they are slabbed they are considered baseball cards.

so what's the first "true" baseball card?

[barrysloate]

The 1887 issues, such as Old Judge, Allen & Ginters, etc. Whichever came out first is it. Maybe it's the N167. But the definition of a baseball card has broadened in recent years, and most collectors are fine calling a CdV or a trade card a baseball card...as long as it is slabbable. In our hobby the slab supersedes everything else.

[E93]

The 1887 issues, such as Old Judge, Allen & Ginters, etc. Whichever came out first is it. Maybe it's the N167. But the definition of a baseball card has broadened in recent years, and most collectors are fine calling a CdV or a trade card a baseball card...as long as it is slabbable. In our hobby the slab supersedes everything else.

I agree. I think that in the traditional way in which we think of cards and sets, the N167 Old Judge set was probably the first baseball card set.
JimB

[Bicem]

In our hobby the slab supersedes everything else.

sad but true.

[slidekellyslide]

Trade cards were pretty much gone by 1900.

Replaced by postcards and ink blotters for the most part.

[benchod]

postcards suck

[jcmtiger]

postcards suck

I don't think so.:D
Here are a few of mine.

Joe

[CW]

postcards suck

Thanks for sharing such wonderful insight and contributing to the positive vibe of the forum.

[Bicem]

Thanks for sharing such wonderful insight and contributing to the positive vibe of the forum.

sorry... postcards REALLY suck

[benchod]

Thanks Jeff,
Keep piling it on and maybe I'll win something next round of Legendary!

[CW]

did not realize tongue-in-cheekness of said comment. All good.... :)

sorry, just come here to unwind and relax and enjoy the hobby, and am getting tired of negative comments all around lately (grading sucks, PSA sucks, that autograph sucks, etc.). My bad.

[drc]

For the record, I don't mind trade cards being called baseball cards. The Peck & Snyder trade cards being called baseball cards does not offended my senses. Though I understand some are using the definition of baseball cards as being 'trading' cards-- meaning, cards that were meant for the general public to be collected. I understand that reasoning.

It should be noted that the Peck & Snyder CDVs, as opposed to the trade cards, were sold to the public via the catalog. I would think they'd fit the definition of trading cards.

[triwak]

However you wanna classify it, I would LOVE TO OWN THIS HONUS WAGNER (card)!!!!

[Leon]

did not realize tongue-in-cheekness of said comment. All good.... :)

sorry, just come here to unwind and relax and enjoy the hobby, and am getting tired of negative comments all around lately (grading sucks, PSA sucks, that autograph sucks, etc.). My bad.

Type card collecting sucks too :).

[Bicem]

Reccius actually went for a lot less than I thought it would ($21.4).

Apparently, Honus Wagner's rookie and Ozzie Smith's rookie are worth about the same. Makes sense.

[Leon]

Reccius actually went for a lot less than I thought it would ($21.4).

Apparently, Honus Wagner's rookie and Ozzie Smith's rookie are worth about the same. Makes sense.

I think the fact the Reccius has never been positively and empirically dated has hurt it's value. If an exact date gets discovered it's value will increase. Still a great card and fortunately, the way it's dated now, it falls a bit out of my collecting focus. (thank goodness :) as 21k still isn't too cheap)

[Preece1]

I also did quite a bit of research on the card date at the time Hal purchased the original find. I had passed back then because I was convinced in was issued after his days in Pittsburgh, not during his playing days in Louisville. Nothing I have seen has changed my mind. Still a great item!

[Leon]

I also did quite a bit of research on the card date at the time Hal purchased the original find. I had passed back then because I was convinced in was issued after his days in Pittsburgh, not during his playing days in Louisville. Nothing I have seen has changed my mind. Still a great item!

Hey Patrick
Nice to see you around and hope you are well. Our thoughts are quite the same on this card. I was speaking with a very advanced collector, and board member, about this card last night. Same type sentiments were echoed.

[barrysloate]

I think the fact the Reccius has never been positively and empirically dated has hurt it's value. If an exact date gets discovered it's value will increase. Still a great card and fortunately, the way it's dated now, it falls a bit out of my collecting focus. (thank goodness :) as 21k still isn't too cheap)

If the exact date is confirmed I think the value will go down. I'm pretty confident it's an early 20th century issue and not a rookie card. Still rare and neat, but not issued in 1897.

[Leon]

If the exact date is confirmed I think the value will go down. I'm pretty confidant it's an early 20th century issue and not a rookie card. Still rare and neat, but not issued in 1897.

IMO it really depends on what exact date, if it is ascertained, it dates to. If it predates his E107, or is 1903, the value would increase. If it is later it will probably decrease....again, just my opinion and that's all it is. I don't have ESP.

[Baseball Rarities]

Trade cards seem to have phased out in the late 1890's.

I personally think that it is from 1897-99, but it would be nice to be able to definitively date it.

Another 1897 trade card example would be that of the Page Fence Giants. I do not remember seeing similar trade cards that were issued circa 1910. I think that they had been replaced by other mediums, such as postcards by then.

[terjung]

Trade cards seem to have phased out in the 1890's. I personally think that it is from 1897-99, but it would be nice to be able to definitively date it.

Would you consider Cobb / Cobb to be a trade card?

[barrysloate]

Wasn't the cigar box bearing the same image dated to around 1920? I would think the trade card and the cigar box would have some connection.

[Baseball Rarities]

Would you consider Cobb / Cobb to be a trade card?

I guess, in theory, it could be viewed as a trade card, but i consider it a baseball card that took the place of the traditional trade card and served the same advertising purpose.

It is a good example of what i mean by the advertising mediums seemed to have changed from trade cards in the 1890's to others, such as postcards and, in this case, traditional baseball cards.

[Baseball Rarities]

Wasn't the cigar box bearing the same image dated to around 1920? I would think the trade card and the cigar box would have some connection.

AFAIK, it was for a completely different company and not associated with Reccius at all. Not uncommon for companies to use old images to advertise their products.

[Bicem]

Anyone care to share the reasons why people think that it may be a 20th century piece?

[barrysloate]

My reason is purely observational: it doesn't look that old. It doesn't strike me as a late 19th century piece. I know that's not very scientific, but I've looked at an awful lot of 19th century material over the years and this just looks to have been made a little bit later. And that seems to be the opinion of many of the collectors I've talked to about it.

[Baseball Rarities]

My reason is purely observational: it doesn't look that old. It doesn't strike me as a late 19th century piece. I know that's not very scientific, but I've looked at an awful lot of 19th century material over the years and this just looks to have been made a little bit later. And that seems to be the opinion of many of the collectors I've talked to about it.

I agree with you - it does not have that typical 19th century look to it, but there really is not much in our hobby that emanates from the 1897-99 time period to compare it to. I do think that it is very similiar to the 1897 Page Fence Giants trade card in terms of looks - especially in size and paper stock.

M101-1's do not look like typical 19th century items to me either, but they are obviously from 1899. I typically envision 19th century items as being either photographic in nature or multi-color lithographs, not the monotone printed images that seem to come into vogue in the late 1890's.

[barrysloate]

Kevin- I respect your opinion as much as anyone's, and you surely have handled more rare baseball cards than I have. But based on the price it realized, the hobby emphatically rejected it as a period piece. Take for example the Baltimore News Ruth, which is currently a half a million dollar card, or the Just So Cy Young which if auctioned could easily surpass that amount. Those are rookie cards that would reach the stratosphere.

The Reccius Wagner, on the other hand, sold for less than 5% that amount. That does not reflect the bidders merely uncertain of the date, it shows them categorically rejecting it. If it were believed to be an 1897 issue I would guess it would sail past the quarter million dollar mark. So it doesn't appear that anyone really thinks it was issued when Wagner played for Louisville.

[terjung]

I think the difference between the Reccius and the Just So Young and the Baltimore News Ruth cards are that those last two were part of sets as opposed to what may be a "one of". In the Baltimore News case, there is a schedule from the year and the presence of Ruth in the team set also helps to date it - given his short tenure with the team. In other words, the grouping of players helps to identify the era in the BN case.

[drc]

Good points.

There are a few obscure cards where the date was questioned and it later was shown they were indeed from the vintage era. And I can think of a set that was later shown to be made later than thought (though was still Pre-WWII). So time may tell, give us evidence.

[Baseball Rarities]

Good points Barry, but i do not think a Baltimore News Ruth in comparable condition would sell for $500K. The last example sold for $150K and it was in a PSA 1, which i would think is more desirable than a PSA AUT. I think that the PSA 1 Reccius of Wagner last sold for $50K, 33% of the PSA 1BN Ruth, which i think is a more fair comparison.

[GaryPassamonte]

confidant? Barry, that's not like you!

[drc]

Food for thought. I remember Mike Wentz would say he looked at the style/type of type on items to help judge age. He once said that an item wasn't as old as advertised because the type used was more modern.

I never looked into this technique but it's an interesting idea.

[barrysloate]

Brian- while the Baltimore News and Just So are sets, and not "one ofs", does anybody actually collect either of those sets? May not make a difference, but most collectors have one or maybe two if they are lucky. There are no known sets ever completed, I think.

Kevin- sorry if my numbers were off a little, but the Reccius clearly is not worth anywhere near what it would be if collectors had confidence it was issued while Wagner played at Louisville.

Gary- "confident" corrected. bad error, I know.:(

[rc4157]

There should probably be some sort of prize for a forum member finding something to correct on Barry's post!:eek:
RC

[drc]

Or finding anything correct.

:)

[GaryPassamonte]

Barry has been a valued confidant of mine for many years.

[bcbgcbrcb]

"I know that a lot of research was done regarding the actual date of issue of this card. Can anyone fill me in on the latest?"

I posted the above question twice early on in this thread and no one had any opinion or even acknowledged the question (except one individual who referenced that info was available in the Net54 archives, of course, if I was able to find that info in the Net54 archives, I would not have asked the question). It seems that everyone has a lot of opinions now...........

[terjung]

Brian- while the Baltimore News and Just So are sets, and not "one ofs", does anybody actually collect either of those sets? May not make a difference, but most collectors have one or maybe two if they are lucky. There are no known sets ever completed, I think.



My point was not that they are collected "as sets", but that the presence of other cards in such a set can help to date the release of the cards due to player presence or team designations.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"I know that a lot of research was done regarding the actual date of issue of this card. Can anyone fill me in on the latest?"

I posted the above question twice early on in this thread and no one had any opinion or even acknowledged the question (except one individual who referenced that info was available in the Net54 archives, of course, if I was able to find that info in the Net54 archives, I would not have asked the question). It seems that everyone has a lot of opinions now...........

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76870&highlight=reccius

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thanks, Peter, that was the info that I was looking for. I wanted to use it to determine whether or not to go after the card as a Rookie, that's why it was important during the auction, not now when it is already over. Luckily, it appears that I made the right choice on my own (besides the fact that I probably could not afford it anyway as who knows how high the winner was willing to go).

[buymycards]

The last post in the archived thread mentioned the telephone number. I looked at Wikipedia where it said that there were 3 million phones in the US in 1904, but I can't find any info in regard to the late or mid 1890's. Just the fact that the card contains a telephone number seems to be significant and I am leaning more toward early 1900's rather than the 1890's.

Rick

[SilverBall67]

Curious thoughts always arised when considering a circa date for the Honus Wagner (Henry Reccius Card). Please refer to this link :

http://thelibrary.org/blogs/article.cfm?aid=1065

Right hand side of the Reccius Card reads: ~ HOME TELEPHONE 5807 ~
(XXXX is a four digit telephone number). As per research done, 4 digit telephone numbers were not used until 1905.

[steve B]

Curious thoughts always arised when considering a circa date for the Honus Wagner (Henry Reccius Card). Please refer to this link :

http://thelibrary.org/blogs/article.cfm?aid=1065

Right hand side of the Reccius Card reads: ~ HOME TELEPHONE 5807 ~
(XXXX is a four digit telephone number). As per research done, 4 digit telephone numbers were not used until 1905.

That only applies to Springfield. A much smaller city than Pittsburg.

The adoption of three and four number phone numbers varied by the size of the local exchange. So Pittsburg could have had four digit numbers much earlier.
http://www.privateline.com/TelephoneHistory3A/numbers.html

Steve B

[steve B]

The newspaper shown here

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=djft3U1LymYC&dat=19000104&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Is from 1900 and shows a four digit number in the Urling Bros ad at the lower right of page 12.

Steve B

[Baseball Rarities]

Louisville definitely had 4 digit telephone numbers in the 1890's. Here is one for the "Italian-Swiss Colony Wine Co." from September of 1899. I have seen many that are even earlier.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn86069180/1899-09-09/ed-1/seq-4/#date1=1836&index=2&rows=20&words=American+AMERICAN+IRISH+Irish+KENTUCKY+Kentu cky&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=kentucky+irish+american&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

[Leon]

Interesting thread. This is one of those type mysteries that keeps the hobby fun for me.

[Peter W Thomas]

4 digit numbers + letter around in 50's
2339W childhood phone # until 1954 when changed to OL3-3098 (olympic)