Is the T206 P350 Schulte Scrap or Factory Cut?

[White Borders]

Do you think this is Printer's Scrap (meaning Hand Cut) or Factory Cut?

[atx840]

Factory.

[t206hound]

Factory

[jimross]

Factory and either way not a big deal.

[mrvster]

factory...

[drc]

I voted factory

[MVSNYC]

Factory and either way not a big deal.

+1

[steve B]

No choice for both?

Factory cut, and probably a scrap as well.

Steve B

[shammus]

Borders are a tiny bit wavy but not enough to make me think it was handcut. There's some indenting towards the middle but that, and the creases, give me the impression the card was held together with some others using a rubber band.

Colors on the card look ok but I'm by no means a t206 expert. Is there a particular argument I should be considering on why this could be printer's scrap?

[Abravefan11]

Is there a particular argument I should be considering on why this could be printer's scrap?

It's the only Schulte with a Piedmont 350 back that's known. There are other cards that are very difficult to find with a Piedmont 350 back as well, but multiple examples of all of them have been confirmed. Counting the Schulte there are 10 cards that are tough to find with a Piedmont 350 back. The Schulte differs from the other 9 since it has never been confirmed with an EPDG back. I can't speak for anyone else, but before seeing the card I questioned whether or not it was scrap. This may explain its scarcity and why there is no EPDG back as well. But after seeing the scan of the card I don't see anything the leads me to believe that it wasn't factory cut.

It's possible that one or more examples of the Schulte with a Piedmont 350 back will show up. It's a card that could easily go unnoticed in many collections. For the time being it's interesting to ponder this one.

[jimross]

[QUOTE=Abravefan11;990461]It's a card that could easily go unnoticed in many collections. [QUOTE]

+1

[sreader3]

I'm not sure whether the card is scrap or not. But what about the mark at the top? I'll concede that it's highly probable that it's just a squiggle added by a collector sometime after production (like the indecipherable marks on thousands of other T206s). On the other hand, it seems at least possible that it's a crude crop mark, "8" or other layout designation added at the factory. To me it adds to the card's mystique.

[Abravefan11]

Scot - That's a really interesting observation. I say this because another collector contacted me a few days ago with a scan of one of his cards with a similar mark on the back. He asked if I thought that his and the mark on the Schulte could have been from the factory just as your proposed. I told him that though they looked similar I didn't think either were done at the factory. I thought like you the likely explanation was they were similar stray marks added by a collector. I don't know what use these markings would be to the factory, but there's always an outside chance they could have been used for something. Here is an image of his cards mark and the Schulte mark.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ITllK0MJNXs/T6bFNZyMApI/AAAAAAAAGHw/8wR_4DkE7I0/s429/Schu.jpg

[Rob D.]

I voted factory cut. Interesting poll and observations.

Thanks, guys.

[sreader3]

Tim,

Thanks for the information. Those "8s" look to me like they could have have been drawn by the same hand.

I think it is important to keep in mind that the big issue here is not whether or not this particular Schulte card is "factory cut" per se, but whether or not it is scrap (as opposed to being distributed in a pack). There is a subtle difference, which is why the mark at the top and the clipped upper left corner are relevant to the inquiry.

Scot

[Abravefan11]

Scot I agree the question of how the card was cut isn't as important as whether or not it was scrap. It will be telling if more Schulte P350's surface but that could take time. As I said before most people wouldn't look at this front/back combo and think they have something scarce, so other examples could be around but have just gone unnoticed to this point.

Myself and several other collectors have been following the tougher P350 examples for several years. We share our information regarding these cards and when we see them for sale. Several cards in this group have not been seen is a public sale in years. (We could have missed one.) This doesn't mean they don't exist. We just haven't seen one yet. The same could be the case for the Schulte.

I think it's premature to categorize this lone example as an anomaly or scrap but it's certainly a possibility and worth raising the question.

[teetwoohsix]

I chose factory cut, but it's only a guess- the more interesting thing is this being the solitary one seen so far. And I'm sure many people went and checked the backs of their Schulte's to see if they had a P350 :D....

I have a feeling there may be others as well-I am hoping at least one more will show up for comparisons sake.

Great thread-

Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

Tim,

Thanks for the information. Those "8s" look to me like they could have have been drawn by the same hand.

I think it is important to keep in mind that the big issue here is not whether or not this particular Schulte card is "factory cut" per se, but whether or not it is scrap (as opposed to being distributed in a pack). There is a subtle difference, which is why the mark at the top and the clipped upper left corner are relevant to the inquiry.

Scot

Scot......very astute observations of yours. In my opinion, this PIEDMONT 350 Schulte is not an American Litho. regular production T206 card.

I have been tracking this Schulte pose [along with Ames (hands at chest) and Larry Doyle (throwing)] for the past 6 years, since we started our T206 surveys on Net54.
I've seen several 100's of different cards of Schulte (front view) at shows, on ebay, auctions & pop reports in these 6 years. The majority of them are PIEDMONT 150.
Only about 33 % of them are SWEET CAPORAL 150.....and, a handful of them are SOVEREIGN 150 or brown HINDU cards.

The fact that NO other examples of this card with a PIEDMONT 350 back have surfaced, in these 6 years since I (and others) have searched for them, tells us that this
particular Schulte card is just an anomaly.


Best regards, Scot

TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Recently a board member confirmed a Lou Ritter Old Mill. Previous to this I wasn't aware of one being confirmed on any checklist and there isn't a graded example on either SGC's or PSA's pop report.

I personally looked for a Bill Sweeney Tolstoi back for years and began thinking one might not exist. One was grade by SGC and I was fortunate to buy it when it was listed on Ebay. It still remains the only example on a pop report and I haven't seen another.

My point is that we're still learning of front/back combinations that weren't previously known for backs that aren't considered scarce.

While the Piedmont 350 back is the most common overall, anyone that has tried collecting the short prints with this back, knows they are anything but common. So as I said before, the Schulte is a mystery and unique, but at this point saying another definitely won't show up in my opinion is premature.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

But Ted said it is not a regular Piedmont 350. :p

Lee

[Jantz]

Whether the Schulte is factory or hand cut, I'm still unsure.

But one thing that caught my attention was the edge wear on that "clipped corner".

If one were to believe that the edge wear is consistent all the way around the card then was that corner clipped at the factory or by a previous owner.

Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts.


Jantz

[T206Collector]

The simplest explanation is usually the right one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

While I do not intend to discourage theorizing and discussion, it is far more likely that this was factory cut, and carved, soiled, and marked by a collector in the normal course of 100+ years. When you are dealing with very very small sample sizes you have to be really careful about making assumptions about the entire universe.

As my friend once said about my first apartment in Brooklyn, "You may only see one cockroach on your counter, but that means there are thousands behind the walls."

I suspect the longer you guys engage in an expanded discussion of T206 backs -- and I am just one collector who has put together 521 unique T206 fronts in recent years without ever hardly peeking at the backs -- you will continue to unfold mystery upon mystery. Rather than jump to conclusions, wouldn't it be better to test hypotheses?

For those of you who think this Schulte is a unique, one-of-a-kind scrap, how much would you pay for a TPG example? Put your money on this one publicly and you encourage the public to actively pursue more examples.