t206 psa 8 wagner provenance

[g_vezina_c55]

I just finish to read the book : The card by michael o keeffe.

And i have 1 question :

Anyone here have more info about the provenance of the gretzky wagner before Mr Ray owned it in 1985 ?
Any other info on this card provenance since the book was edited 2008 ?

[sgbernard]

Search the board for the McNall Gretzky Wagner and you'll see some of the answer to this--I think we'd all like to know who this card once belonged to, and how good that person was with scissors. Mystery!

[Pup6913]

I though the card was altered after 85. Then slabbed by none other than PSA

[g_vezina_c55]

but before 1985 anyone have any new info about the provenance of the card ?

the fact that the card was altered or trimmed is only speculation, theorie , no ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have not seen anything tracing it back beyond Alan Ray.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ray would not say where he acquired the card, to this day keeping mum about what the card was up to between 1909 and 1986. He was forced to sell it because of "a money situation," Ray was quoted as saying in a 2001 New York Daily News article by O'Keeffe and colleague Bill Madden, which first traced the buying-and-selling history of the card.

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/bh_wagner.html#ixzz1tq6cQO1M

[Pup6913]

the fact that the card was altered or trimmed is only speculation, theorie , no ?

absolutly not. That card is as altered as Micheal Jackson's nose

[g_vezina_c55]

absolutly not. That card is as altered as Micheal Jackson's nose


Lololol i really love your comparaison hehe

If what you said is 100% true, you probably have 0 confidence into psa?

[Matthew H]

Lololol i really love your comparaison hehe

If what you said is 100% true, you probably have 0 confidence into psa?

There are photos of the card somewhere on the board, pre alteration.

Edit: there is also a video interview with PSA grader stating that he knew the card was hand cut. he felt the card was too nice to reject grading. There was no auth grading by them back then, I think.

[g_vezina_c55]

There are photos of the card somewhere on the board, pre alteration.

Edit: there is also a video interview with PSA grader stating that he knew the card was hand cut. he felt the card was too nice to reject grading. There was no auth grading by them back then, I think.

If you can find these two thing it will be appreciated, the pic and video

[Peter_Spaeth]

He may well be right, and I think most people would agree with him, but Andrew has no first-hand knowledge, so he is just "speculating" as is everyone else.

[Matthew H]

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/2007/06/photos-prove-wagner-card-was-t.html

Those that don't believe this is the same card, simply don't want to :)

[Pup6913]

He may well be right, and I think most people would agree with him, but Andrew has no first-hand knowledge, so he is just "speculating" as is everyone else.

True Peter. I have never examined the card first hand. An attorney doesn't investigate a murder scene either. He bases his defense on the evidence.

[Runscott]

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/2007/06/photos-prove-wagner-card-was-t.html

Those that don't believe this is the same card, simply don't want to :)

Matt, you are 100% correct.

I found this bit from the link you posted, interesting. I didn't realize that McNall did the submitting. I thought PSA was created specifically as a way of 'authenticating' the card and sweeping the trimming under the carpet.

"A few months after he and Gretzky bought the card, a new company -- Professional Sports Authenticator, now the hobby's biggest and most important card-grading service -- was born. McNall submitted the card for inspection and it was declared a PSA 8 on a scale of 1-10."

[g_vezina_c55]

thanks for the link.
Interesting picture.
I never see this card in real so i can t have a real opinion about it .

The only think i know is, i have 100% confidence in PSA, SGC and BGS.
So i just can t beleive psa give the grade of 8 to a ' suposely trimmed card ' .

[Matthew H]

Matt, you are 100% correct.

I found this bit from the link you posted, interesting. I didn't realize that McNall did the submitting. I thought PSA was created specifically as a way of 'authenticating' the card and sweeping the trimming under the carpet.

"A few months after he and Gretzky bought the card, a new company -- Professional Sports Authenticator, now the hobby's biggest and most important card-grading service -- was born. McNall submitted the card for inspection and it was declared a PSA 8 on a scale of 1-10."

thanks for the link.
Interesting picture.
I never see this card in real so i can t have a real opinion about it .

I can't find the video right now, maybe some one else can help.

The grader of the card said something like "I could tell the card was hand cut, I just felt like it deserved a grade". When PSA first started, I believe the only graded unaltered cards. So they had two options, either grade the card numerically or no holder.

Edit: G Venezia, if you compare the photo to the one in the holder, it's easy to see the vertical borders are fatter in the raw photo. They are also wavy ( although they are wavy in the holder too just thinner)

Some people think they are not the same card, I think it's obvious that they are the the same. IMO

[g_vezina_c55]

i saw the pic... if it is the same card it is evident the card was handcut. But perhaps a photoshop ? or different card ?

probably it will be a mystery until the end of the world.... probably only a couple of person know the truth...

[frankbmd]

The provenance of "The Card" is incomplete without mentioning that I personally saw "The Card" at a preview of the Sotheby's auction in 1991
in Beverly Hills. Just one of many investment opportunities that I failed
to act upon. I think I bought some Upper Deck packs that day.

[atx840]

-"The Card" quotes Bill Hughes, a member of the grading service team that issued the card's high grade - Professional Sports Authenticator gave it a PSA 8 on a scale of 1-10 - as admitting he knew the card had been cut from a sheet when he graded it. "The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it," Hughes explained.-

Article (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-04-17/sports/27062015_1_dealers-and-card-vintage-cards-numerical-grade)

[Matthew H]

-...."The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it," Hughes explained.-

Article (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-04-17/sports/27062015_1_dealers-and-card-vintage-cards-numerical-grade)

I think they've been using that grading philosophy ever since :D

[Runscott]

[QUOTE=atx840;989893]"The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it," Hughes explained.-

Such a statement from Hughes would be understandable, except.....

It was the FIRST card ever graded by PSA!

[glynparson]

The Card is trimmed. Not speculation in my mind i believe this to be true with 100% of my being. if i were extremely wealthy i would still pay more for it than any of the other t206 wagners i have ever seen.

[tedzan]

The only provenance you need to know with respect to the PSA Wagner is that this Wagner's SHEET-MATE....the Charlie Conlon PIEDMONT Plank....
was graded by PSA as AUTHENTIC.

So, that should tell you everything you want to know ?


TED Z

[Cardboard Junkie]

That Gretsky/McNall Wagner is TRIMMED! And should have been graded as such.....since When does a cards rarity or value affect the grading? It is cardboard with ink on it! Oh yeah. This is psa and famous clientel. The whole TPG thing is coming apart like a cheap suit in the rain. Aloha, Dave

[bn2cardz]

since When does a cards rarity or value affect the grading?

Considering that it is the first card graded by PSA, then I would say since the beginning.

[g_vezina_c55]

Considering that it is the first card graded by PSA, then I would say since the beginning.

the first or the last card graded by psa, her policy is to not grade numerical the altered , trimmed card....

the rule must be the same for all card

no?

[Pup6913]

I am not a PSA supporter by any means but even a blind dog finds a bone every now and then. They will be their own demise. They do good on newer post war cards and I think they should stick with that and let SGC take care of the pre war. Granted SGC has mucked a few things they are far more accurate and non biase on cards wether its a $5 card or $1000000 card.

Wagner PSA 8 was their first card. We all know it's trimmed/altered. They built a company that started with fraud. That's what I would consider it irregardless of the card and value. I just wish that they would stop looking at the money and start caring about the hobby. This is JMO.

[glynparson]

I truly like the whole grading team at SGC but if you don't think they've holdered too many altered cards u are only fooling yourself. I'm honestly not sure which has a higher % of altered material. I don't feel any more confidence in high grade cards from one company than the other.