Dmitri Young got some PSA love...

[michael3322]

There's been some press about Dmitri Young's PSA 10 rookie collection hitting the auction blocks. I read this in the Yahoo! article (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/former-major-leaguer-dmitri-young-is-unlikely-owner-of-huge-rookie-baseball-card-collection-.html):

"In the world of collecting, every collector has their own theme," says Joe Orlando, president of PSA. "If you are talking about baseball rookie cards in the highest quality, no other collection comes close to Dmitri's. The thing that's neat about his collection is that he's assembled not only Hall of Famers, but any noteworthy player in the post-World War II period."

...

"So when Horton's PSA 9 card popped up on eBay for $400, buying it was a no-brainer. Young sent it to PSA three times, asking that they bump it up to a 10. The third time they did."



How often do collectors resubmit a PSA 9 card 3 times and then get a bump to 10?

[D. Bergin]

Cool somebody like Young is also a collector.

LOL about PSA though. :D

[timzcardz]

...

"So when Horton's PSA 9 card popped up on eBay for $400, buying it was a no-brainer. Young sent it to PSA three times, asking that they bump it up to a 10. The third time they did."



How often do collectors resubmit a PSA 9 card 3 times and then get a bump to 10?


I guess cards do improve with age! :D

[yanksfan09]

I did notice the edges on those some of those cards, and the upper corners of the Rose RC were less than perfect.

I think it's great he collects and is very into it though. I'm happy I'm not overly concerned with high grade stuff.

There's just so many great cards to own and I only have so much $ to spend!

[D. Bergin]

Pretty funny. At the end of the article he states his holy grail is a 1981 Topps Fernando Valenzuela PSA 10.

He says most of them come out of the pack looking like "turds". LOL!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The article does not appear to mention that he is selling.

[philliesphan]

How often do collectors resubmit a PSA 9 card 3 times and then get a bump to 10?

Probably happens more frequently thank you think. I recall hearing that the Clemente PSA 10 was originally in a 9 holder.

When a bump like that adds tens of thousands (or, in that case, hundreds of thousands) in value to a card, the cost of a review seems like a minimal gamble.

I know a few people who either send the card in for review, or who crack and resubmit. I'd only recommend the cracking route for lower $$ cards, though.

[gnaz01]

YES, got my SCP auction catalog yesterday for the Dimitri cards, powerful stuff in there......:D

[DJR]

.

[rainier2004]

OT but unimpressed his younger brother....on and off the filed!

Detroit Tigers outfielder Delmon Young arrested:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/detroit-tigers-outfielder-delmon-young-150438829--mlb.html

IF that story is true, what a flipping jack@ss. Ive been a Tigers fan for over 30 years and will support my guys but that story paints a bad picture of young. Also, thats digusting that psa would upgrade a 9 to a 10. That end of the spectrum always seemed so much more black and white to me then the 1 to 2 end. What do I know?

[doug.goodman]

"So when Horton's PSA 9 card popped up on eBay for $400, buying it was a no-brainer. Young sent it to PSA three times, asking that they bump it up to a 10. The third time they did."

And you flip buyers wonder why we raw guys find grading so laughable?

If I buy a 3 and sent it in enough times to make it a 4, could I then send it in enough times to make it a 5? Etc?

Doug

[chaddurbin]

Also, thats digusting that psa would upgrade a 9 to a 10. That end of the spectrum always seemed so much more black and white to me then the 1 to 2 end. What do I know?

9/10 is much more subjective vs a 1 and 2

And you flip buyers wonder why we raw guys find grading so laughable?

If I buy a 3 and sent it in enough times to make it a 4, could I then send it in enough times to make it a 5? Etc?
Doug

gross generalization to again bash grading.

[ScottFandango]

delmon young got suspended for a year in the minors for attacking a player with his bat....that guy has serious issues...not to mention he is a HUGE UNDERACHIEVER onthe field!

L O S E R

[doug.goodman]

...gross generalization to again bash grading.

Actually, it was not a gross generalization, it was a joke.

But, yes, it was meant to bash grading.

Doug

[howard38]

delmon young got suspended for a year in the minors for attacking a player with his bat....that guy has serious issues...not to mention he is a HUGE UNDERACHIEVER onthe field!

L O S E R
Here it is. It was an umpire and he was suspended for fifty games but he should have been arrested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCX_XlRYYDo

[Bicem]

9/10 is much more subjective vs a 1 and 2



gross generalization to again bash grading.



agreed, grading is gross.

[smotan_02]

Here it is. It was an umpire and he was suspended for fifty games but he should have been arrested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCX_XlRYYDo

"Look he finally hit something with his bat".

Best comment on the video

[Pup6913]

PSA YOU SUCK. That is BS that they would bump it for him. Not like he didn't pull some strings. Pretty sad that they have such a following and have destroyed the market with bullshit cards. PSA 4 with pin holes, PSA 5 and 6 with paper loss, Trimmed/Altered Wagner and many MANY MANY MANY MANY MORE F'ED UP CARDS. Karma is a B:eek:

This is no different than theft. JMO

[itjclarke]

Here it is. It was an umpire and he was suspended for fifty games but he should have been arrested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCX_XlRYYDo

Maybe if Delmon collected cards like his bro he'd mellow out. He just got in trouble for getting in a fight in NY and shouting anti Semitic slurs. Dimitri is supposed to be a good guy though, right?

[Exhibitman]

He just got in trouble for getting in a fight in NY and shouting anti Semitic slurs.

Paging Mel Gibson. Mr. Gibson, white courtesy phone...

[sportscardpete]

Paging Mel Gibson. Mr. Gibson, white courtesy phone...


HAHAHA.


Didn't Young charge people to see his collection in prior years? Or was this already mentioned?

[sycks22]

Just got my catalog today and in looking at the backs of some of the cards there's no way some of them should be 10's. The centering on the front is amazing on all of the cards, but don't the backs also have to have 50/50 centering? Check out the back of the Banks rookie (severe tilt) and Musial (25/75) L to R centering. I could be wrong, but the backs don't look like 10's. Anyone else notice that?

[D. Bergin]

Just got my catalog today and in looking at the backs of some of the cards there's no way some of them should be 10's. The centering on the front is amazing on all of the cards, but don't the backs also have to have 50/50 centering? Check out the back of the Banks rookie (severe tilt) and Musial (25/75) L to R centering. I could be wrong, but the backs don't look like 10's. Anyone else notice that?


I still think it's pretty funny that Mr. Young could find Banks and Musial Rookies that PSA would bestow a 10 upon, but is having a terrible time finding an 81 Topps Valenzuela.

I'll tell you one thing. If I did have a high value card of say, a Wayne Gretzky Rookie card and I sold a PSA 9 version to somebody like Delmon...............I'd be pretty pissed if I found out this card magically graded a 10 for someone else. That would be like PSA taking thousands of dollars out of one persons pocket and depositing it into someone else's.

[Jay Wolt]

Not sure how many cards Dmitri got graded but the vast majority was already graded 10's when he purchased them.
He (through his purchasing agent Dave B.) has aggressively been buying PSA-10 rookies for years.

The irony was that the PSA-10's were crossed to GAI to help them receive more submissions since they landed a big time GAI collector.
No GAI's are in the SCP auction, so they are back in PSA holders

[packs]

The T206 that PSA graded a 10 had an off centered back too.

[michael3322]

I just found this on the PSA website (http://www.psacard.com/photograde/#GemMint10).

PSA Card Grading Standards

GEM-MT 10: Gem Mint

A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card. Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus and full original gloss. A PSA Gem Mint 10 card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection if it doesn't impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse.

MINT 9: Mint

A PSA Mint 9 is a superb-condition card that exhibits only one of the following minor flaws: a very slight wax stain on reverse, a minor printing imperfection or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 60/40 to 65/35 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

NM-MT 8: Near Mint-Mint

A PSA NM-MT 8 is a super high-end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance, but upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: a very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection, and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

...

[travrosty]

I just found this on the PSA website (http://www.psacard.com/photograde/#GemMint10).

PSA Card Grading Standards

GEM-MT 10: Gem Mint

A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card. Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus and full original gloss. A PSA Gem Mint 10 card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection if it doesn't impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse.

MINT 9: Mint

A PSA Mint 9 is a superb-condition card that exhibits only one of the following minor flaws: a very slight wax stain on reverse, a minor printing imperfection or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 60/40 to 65/35 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

NM-MT 8: Near Mint-Mint

A PSA NM-MT 8 is a super high-end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance, but upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: a very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection, and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

...



looks like the musial back might squeeze in under that 10 definition, but not the banks, he must have got a gimme on that one.

[egbeachley]

looks like the musial back might squeeze in under that 10 definition

only if you assume that the centering is based on where the writing stops. If the "card back" is actually a mm to each side of the writing (like if they were to have put a border around the wording) then it's 80/20 or worse.

[doug.goodman]

A PSA Gem Mint 10 ... The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed ... 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse...

Ok, so a "10", a "perfect" card, doesn't actually have to be centered.

That makes perfect sense to me (insert smiley face here),
Doug

[glchen]

Remember that PSA does not have Pristine that SGC and Beckett have. Gem mint for SGC is 98. Pristine is 100

[sycks22]

Still confused how their definition of perfect is 25/75 centering on the back.

[jhs5120]

It's a beautiful collection, there's no point arguing that.

I'm sure if anyone had a problem with a back being centered 21.3/78.7 versus 25/75 they can take it up with SCP or PSA. I personally think all of the cards are amazing.

Every grading company has it's own set of flaws, PSA may make exceptions for high profile clients, who am I to judge? They have added value to most of our collections and they have given our hobby much needed exposure. All good things.

Jason

[doug.goodman]

They have added value to most of our collections and they have given our hobby much needed exposure. All good things.

I actually would be perfectly happy if they had done neither of these things.

Doug

[Orioles1954]

I haven't heard much about SGC lately....wonder what their future is?

[FrankWakefield]

added value to most of our collections... I'm doubtful of that.
given our hobby much needed exposure... doubt it was given, don't think it was needed.

+1 to what Doug last said.

[Runscott]

And you flip buyers wonder why we raw guys find grading so laughable?

If I buy a 3 and sent it in enough times to make it a 4, could I then send it in enough times to make it a 5? Etc?

Doug

Doug, I collected raw '10's as a kid. I had tons of them: Mantles, Clementes, you name it. I even took especially good care of the future HOF'ers like Mantle. Still, they somehow ended up in much lower grades.

I think having a NM multi-thousand-dollar card in a protective numbered slab is probably a pretty good idea, even if there is some 'flip' corruption at that level.

But I agree that 3's are fine raw - that's how I collect them as well.

[howard38]

/

[doug.goodman]

But I agree that 3's are fine raw - that's how I collect them as well.

All of mine are raw. None of them have numbers. Many of them HAD numbers, many up to 8's and 9's.

I will admit to once buying a PSA 10 McGwire rookie for $1800 and flipping it for $3600. I enjoyed the money slightly less that I enjoyed the fact that some schmuck had paid me that much (probably a similar thought to that of the guy who sold it to me).

Doug

[doug.goodman]

Value added to cards is fine for the owner but it sucks for the buyer.

Which is why I would be perfectly happy if my collection was worthless.

[Runscott]

All of mine are raw. None of them have numbers. Many of them HAD numbers, many up to 8's and 9's.

I will admit to once buying a PSA 10 McGwire rookie for $1800 and flipping it for $3600. I enjoyed the money slightly less that I enjoyed the fact that some schmuck had paid me that much (probably a similar thought to that of the guy who sold it to me).

Doug

Hey, don't feel bad about liking money - everyone likes money, except for that baby in the commercial.

That is gutsy, de-slabbing 9's :eek:

[travrosty]

i love de=slabbing. who needs it, we know what condition the card is in, we have eyes. its the same card whether in a slab or out of a slab.

[doug.goodman]

That is gutsy, de-slabbing 9's :eek:

I would have no hesitation to remove a 10 from it's slab, if I had one, I only buy cards for prices I like, and for prices I like, I like raw.

The 10 McGwire was a fluke purchase based on an obviously impending bubble in the market. I only owned it for 4 or 5 days.

Doug

[drc]

In my opinion, 10s should have better than 50/50 centering.

[Leon]

i love de=slabbing. who needs it, we know what condition the card is in, we have eyes. its the same card whether in a slab or out of a slab.

Sometimes grading companies catch things we collectors don't. SGC has saved me 10's of thousands of dollars over the years and BVG has saved me some money too. I like having their second sets of eyes looking at my raw purchases. I will only buy expensive raw cards with a guarantee of a numerical grade by one of the top 3 grading companies. It works for me but if you hate grading.....God love you....it's ok. Do what makes you happy and comfortable.

[doug.goodman]

In my opinion, 10s should have better than 50/50 centering.

Laughing out loud.

In all 3 dimensions.

[Leon]

Laughing out loud.

In all 3 dimensions.

Me too...I was thinking something like 50/60 centering!!

[carrigansghost]

Easy now, my last company tried to make a 365 degree wheel....even rounder. Gotta love Boeing.

Rawn

[michael3322]

In the interest of tying up the loose ends, and in case this thread can be useful going forward...

PSA's Grading Criteria are online:
http://www.psacard.com/services/psa_grading_standards.chtml

BGS's Grading Criteria are online:
http://www.beckett.com/estore/helpsys/viewarticle.aspx?ArticleId=47

On the topic of centering, this is from the BGS website:

Pristine 10
Centering: 50/50 all around on front. 60/40 or better on back.

Gem Mint 9.5
Centering: 50/50 one way, 55/45 the other on front. 65/35 or better on back


SGC's Grading Criteria are online:
http://www.sgccard.com/grading_scale.htm

On the topic of centering, this is from the SGC website...

Grade Quality Description
100 PRISTINE A "virtually flawless" card. 50/50 centering, crisp focus, four sharp corners*, free of stains, no breaks in surface gloss, no print or refractor lines, and no visible wear under magnification.

98 GEM 10 55/45 or better centering, sharp focus, four sharp corners*, free of stains, no breaks in surface gloss, no print or refractor lines, and no visible wear. A slight print spot visible under close scrutiny is allowable if it does not detract from the aesthetics of the card.

[glynparson]

Almost everyone that sells Psa cards or has sold PSA cards for years knows you can get bumps. Guess what you can at SGC too. Its an opinion of course it can change and vary from person to person. Also 10 does not mean perfect that is where some of you are having problems. I have never seen a perfect regular issue tops card they all have something wrong. Also someone complained about rough cuts for the millionth time i will state beckett is the only grading company that downgrades for rough cuts. There are so many things to legitametly bash about grading, (favors, grading fake or altered cards).

[Clutch-Hitter]

It should not be possible for a nine to increase to a ten. It's much different than a lesser grade increasing to a higher grade, but never to a ten. The card in question was reviewed multiple times and each time the grader saw a flaw. Therefore, for it to increase to a ten, the flaw(s) vanished while the card was sealed inside the case or the grading standards were lowered for that card.

However, I am one who likes grading nonetheless and have used each of the three, PSA more so and will continue.

[glynparson]

under psa guidelines a 10 can have a flaw
10 does not equal flawless, you are wrong if you think this

[travrosty]

but how can you have a ragged edge on a 54 topps hank aaron and have it be a 10?

even though all those cards have ragged edges, i thought a 10 would have to have straight edges, even though none of those would qualify for a 10, then so what? does there have to be a 10? like he said there is no ten valenzuela, or nolan ryan. how can a ragged edge be a ten, the same for the OPC gretzky 10 that sold for 90,000 dollars, had chipping on the edges. how can that be?

that's why it is so subjective on psa's part and so open to their whim of the day. and that's why it stinks.

[packs]

That's the way the card was produced. There is no flaw. That's why it can be a 10.

[Clutch-Hitter]

I don't think anything is entirely flawless and each "thing" would have to be defined in its own way. The three companies were careful to qualify flawless with "virtually" or something similar. But without reading too deep into it, a ten seems to carry an implication of flawlessness. Now I don't even know what I'm talking about. Just think a ten carries too much value...

[rainier2004]

That's the way the card was produced. There is no flaw. That's why it can be a 10.

Couldn't the same be said for an off-center or mis-cut card? I'd pay more for a card that does not have a rough cut vs one that did all other variables being equal.

[packs]

The rough cut effects a sizeable portion of the overall production of cards, at least from my observations. I think it's a different situation than an off center card.

[egbeachley]

The rough cut effects a sizeable portion of the overall production of cards, at least from my observations. I think it's a different situation than an off center card.

I'm with Steven. Rough-cut flaw is the same as miscut flaw is the same as off-center flaw. There are plenty of sets notorious with bad centering, doesn't make it OK, just like rough-cuts.

[packs]

But is it really a rough cut or just the cut of the cards? I think that's the distinction.

[doug.goodman]

...Also 10 does not mean perfect that is where some of you are having problems...

Oh, I see, my mistake.

So, just a question to make sure I understand correctly, if I have a 10 that isn't perfect, and another card that actually is perfect, what would the second card grade?

Would it get...

Hold on...

Wait for it...

An eleven?

Raw-ly yours,
Doug

[travrosty]

what if they found a 54 aaron just like that one only with a perfect cut right edge. what's that, an 11? who can say one doesn't exist? does the opc gretzky with the rough cut edge that got a 10 and sold for a bajillion dollars make it as a 10 because no other opc rookie gretzky's have a straight edge and no flaking? looks like straight edge ones exist as proof below.

If one comes up with no flaking, I guess we have an 11 on our hands.

so the flaky, rough edge gets a 10 and this other one gets a 9.5 with a straght edge.

what's the deal here? why did the psa graded gretzky get a 10 again?

grading stinks.

[glynparson]

ROUGH CUTS DO NOT LOWER THE GRADE ACCEPT FOR BECKETT. THAT IS THERE POSITION AND I AGREE WITH IT> THE GRETZKY YOU SHOW IS SHEET CUT HENCE THE NO ROUGH EDGE. ALSO 10 DOES NOT EQUAL PERFECT. We need to hold grading companies accountable for the correct things. These would be grading of altered or counterfeirt cards and the benefits given to big submitters and friends of the graders, and yes I do believe this happens.

[Peter_Spaeth]

ROUGH CUTS DO NOT LOWER THE GRADE ACCEPT FOR BECKETT. THAT IS THERE POSITION AND I AGREE WITH IT> THE GRETZKY YOU SHOW IS SHEET CUT HENCE THE NO ROUGH EDGE. ALSO 10 DOES NOT EQUAL PERFECT. We need to hold grading companies accountable for the correct things. These would be grading of altered or counterfeirt cards and the benefits given to big submitters and friends of the graders, and yes I do believe this happens.

Glyn, hush, we must not speak of such things.

[travrosty]

if 10 does not equal perfect, then what does an absolute perfect card deserve for a grade? an 11?

to have a ragged edge gretzky get the same grade as a smooth edge does not make any sense to me. to me, ten is suppose to mean perfect. a ragged, or chipped edging shouldn't get a 10, even if that's how all the cards in that set were made. sheet cut, not sheet cut, doesn't matter. a 10 card should have perfect centering, sharp corners and edges, with no raggedness, no chipping, no creases, no blemishes. That's a 10. otherwise create a 9.5. psa instituted half grades, but not a 9.5, so it goes from 9 to 10. and a ragged edge card like the gretzky or aaron gets a 10? grading is way too subjective adn up to the whim of the authenticator, that can increase a cards value by 10 times if they feel good that day, and not if they get out of the wrong side of the bed, it stinks.

[Runscott]

'10' really is silly.

You would think that the only way a card could be a '10' would be if everything about it turned out exactly as the designer had intended: centering, edges, corners, color, registration, gloss...whatever.

[ullmandds]

Speaking of Schulte...and Dimitri Young/PSA love...how about this Schulte PSA love?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Wildfire-Schulte-PSA-VG-EX-4-/380360980980?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item588f47f9f4

Yeah...I trust PSA!!!!!!

[Pup6913]

I have a PSA 4 T205 Shulte(bought for back) with 2 big ass pin holes in the upper corners. PSA is a sad joke:(:(

[glynparson]

and I've had an sgc 86 satchel paige with pen writing over the back and a 1961 leader sgc 88 with a staple hole. S#!+ happens. if they would refuse a buyback id have more of a problem, though i agree there are too many of these things in holders. But the terrible misses i see more often as a qc problem than a grading problem.

[glynparson]

In my opinion, Grading has only in the end made the good card doctors rich and done little to clean up the hobby.

[ullmandds]

"breaker...we've got a thread hijack in progress at net54...let the PSA bashing commence."

[glynparson]

Sheet cut shouldn't matter? Are you serious, how can it not matter that a card was cut with technology different than intended than you want to judge it against cards that were produced as intended. GLAD YOU DONT RUN A GRADING COMPANY. eVEN bECKETT SEEMS TO HAVE REALIZED THEIR ERROR IN GRADING SHHET CUT CARDS AS THE SEEM TO REJECT MORE OF THEM NOW.