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Julz24
04-26-2012, 12:12 AM
I like to collect autographs of Negro League ball players. Recently, I noticed some newer card issues depicting autos of players that have long since passed, sometimes over 10 years ago. I realize these aren't on-card autos, but where exactly did the autographs come from, and how are there 250 of them?

I know this is a total newb question - just putting that out there...

Bilko G
04-26-2012, 12:24 AM
I Imagine you are referring to a "Cut signature" card. What the card companies these days do with a deceased player is create a card with a "cut signature" and some times the card companies will make 200 copies of the card or sometimes they will only make 1 or 2 of the cards for an athlete that has a rare/tough or expensive autograph.

These "cuts" come from everywhere. Old scrap books, index cards, blank pieces of paper etc.

RichardSimon
04-26-2012, 08:30 AM
I Imagine you are referring to a "Cut signature" card. What the card companies these days do with a deceased player is create a card with a "cut signature" and some times the card companies will make 200 copies of the card or sometimes they will only make 1 or 2 of the cards for an athlete that has a rare/tough or expensive autograph.

These "cuts" come from everywhere. Old scrap books, index cards, blank pieces of paper etc.

As has been discussed in the past on the forum, these cards are no guarantee of authenticity for the autograph.

mr2686
04-26-2012, 08:57 AM
I think you're going to find that the dead players are signing almost as much as the live ones. In the case of Mantle and Williams, maybe more. The jury is out on the undead. :eek::D

Bilko G
04-26-2012, 09:47 AM
As has been discussed in the past on the forum, these cards are no guarantee of authenticity for the autograph.

Yes, as with all autographs, unless you get the auto in person there is no guarantee of authenticity.

frankbmd
04-26-2012, 09:49 AM
I understand they are still voting as well.

Mr. Zipper
04-26-2012, 11:37 AM
Yes, as with all autographs, unless you get the auto in person there is no guarantee of authenticity.

There is also no guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow. It's theoretically possible everything we know could end at any moment due to some sort of cosmic apocalypse. :D

I understand the sentiment that "unless you get the auto in person there is no guarantee of authenticity" and see it repeated a lot here. However, in the case of many, many autographs not obtained in-person, you can be assured they are authentic with a very high degree of certainty.

RichardSimon
04-26-2012, 11:42 AM
I just figured it out!
One prior post said that the autographs seem to be coming from Florida and disseminating to other locations.
It must be the fountain of youth has been discovered in Florida just as Ponce de Leon had always said it would be found there. It is reviving all these deceased ball players at the cost to the player of one long autograph signing session.

Bilko G
04-26-2012, 12:09 PM
There is also no guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow. It's theoretically possible everything we know could end at any moment due to some sort of cosmic apocalypse. :D

I understand the sentiment that "unless you get the auto in person there is no guarantee of authenticity" and see it repeated a lot here. However, in the case of many, many autographs not obtained in-person, you can be assured they are authentic with a very high degree of certainty.


Oh i totally agree with you, thats just sort of a "general rule" so to speak:)

Julz24
04-26-2012, 12:27 PM
Ok, thanks for the replies everyone. That clears up some of the confusion I had.

Although, as far as authenticity goes, I would assume that the card companies would go to some lengths trying to insure these "cut" autographs were verified as authentic before issuing them. Maybe that's a bit naive?

HRBAKER
04-26-2012, 01:01 PM
Ok, thanks for the replies everyone. That clears up some of the confusion I had.

Although, as far as authenticity goes, I would assume that the card companies would go to some lengths trying to insure these "cut" autographs were verified as authentic before issuing them. Maybe that's a bit naive?

Probably naive, my guess is they outsource the procurement on a very regular basis.

bender07
04-26-2012, 02:29 PM
Probably naive, my guess is they outsource the procurement on a very regular basis.

I would treat these autographs like any other; be sure to do your homework first.

mr2686
04-26-2012, 02:46 PM
I would treat these autographs like any other; be sure to do your homework first.

+1

RichardSimon
04-26-2012, 04:14 PM
Ok, thanks for the replies everyone. That clears up some of the confusion I had.

Although, as far as authenticity goes, I would assume that the card companies would go to some lengths trying to insure these "cut" autographs were verified as authentic before issuing them. Maybe that's a bit naive?

Julz - nothing personal but that is very naive.
Check out a web page on my site:
www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm
Scroll down a while on that page and see the autographs I have illustrated that card companies have put on cards.

Julz24
04-28-2012, 01:44 PM
Julz - nothing personal but that is very naive.
Check out a web page on my site:
www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm
Scroll down a while on that page and see the autographs I have illustrated that card companies have put on cards.


I checked out your website and spent about an hour reading some of the various articles. You've done a lot of good research on the authenticity of autographs.

I just don't understand who at the card companies would give the ok to put a cut signature on a baseball card, and then cut off part of the signature. It's totally disgraceful. I always thought card company employees were collectors too. It's just sad.

RichardSimon
04-28-2012, 05:05 PM
I checked out your website and spent about an hour reading some of the various articles. You've done a lot of good research on the authenticity of autographs.

I just don't understand who at the card companies would give the ok to put a cut signature on a baseball card, and then cut off part of the signature. It's totally disgraceful. I always thought card company employees were collectors too. It's just sad.

For all who don't understand the reasoning of the card companies:
THEY DON'T GIVE TWO SHI-S.
they only care about $$$$$$$$$$
the chase cards are not made for collectors they are made for people who like to gamble that they can find a sucker to pay more for the card than they did.
--
the card companies have put signatures on cards that I would never offer to my customers. They have no shame.

Exhibitman
05-01-2012, 08:14 AM
How about this Joe Louis?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/louis%20bad%20leaf%20auto.jpg

As opposed to this one:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous2/louis%201.jpg

Anyone see any inconsistencies? and who dots the "E" in "Wishes"????

RichardSimon
05-01-2012, 08:42 AM
The one in the Beckett plastic tomb does not look like any Joe Louis I have ever seen.

GrayGhost
05-01-2012, 09:10 AM
The business about putting in cuts that are PARTIAL Autographs is RIDICULOUS. This one is kinda funny. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

All you get is the "Dham Clinton"

for those who don't like her, or Willy, if you say that fast, its funny too.:p, but its sooooo ridiculous, to cut it like that. Its nothing bout legalized gambling, and those are garbage cards for the most part.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-topps-sterling-HILLARY-RODHAM-CLINTON-RARE-CUT-AUTO-2-10-no-MPS-122-/170825662887?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item27c600c1a7

mighty bombjack
05-01-2012, 11:23 AM
For all who don't understand the reasoning of the card companies:
THEY DON'T GIVE TWO SHI-S.
they only care about $$$$$$$$$$
the chase cards are not made for collectors they are made for people who like to gamble that they can find a sucker to pay more for the card than they did.
--
the card companies have put signatures on cards that I would never offer to my customers. They have no shame.

As a former cad company employee, I can tell you that this is largely true. Even if there are several people who individually care about the end product, the process is so convoluted and broken apart that frankencards are inevitable. The person making the sell sheet and budgeting the product is different from the person making the checklist, who is different from the person procuring the cuts, who is different from the person cutting them, who is different from the person making the actual card. A lot is lost along the way.

In the end, people buy them. So they will keep making them.

RichardSimon
05-01-2012, 11:43 AM
In the end, people buy them. So they will keep making them.

BUT those people are not collectors, for the most part they are just gamblers.
I truly wish they would go away and chase a roulette wheel or dice or kings, queens and jacks.

travrosty
05-01-2012, 01:05 PM
How about this Joe Louis?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/louis%20bad%20leaf%20auto.jpg

As opposed to this one:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous2/louis%201.jpg

Anyone see any inconsistencies? and who dots the "E" in "Wishes"????



that first joe louis, the beckett one, is bad, not his signature, basically every letter in joe louis is formed incorrectly in one way or another. but i am sure someone overpaid and is now stuck with it. these cut autograph cards specially made as chase cards are ridiculous and horrible. i saw a max schmeling card like that where someone wanted about 350 dollars because it was a 1/1. a max schmeling cut can be had for about 5 dollars.

funnt thing is that the bad joe louis was certed by either psa or jsa, so what can one do?

travrosty
05-01-2012, 01:11 PM
http://www.leaftradingcards.com/executive_cuts.php

http://www.leaftradingcards.com/2011_Executive_Collection/12_ExecCollection_SellSheet.pdf

that leaf joe louis card is a create your own. now you can create your own cut signature card. Make it an aritificial 1 of 1.

we are screwed.

it has to be a certified auto from psa or jsa to qualify, so that joe louis bad, ridiculous auto was either a psa or jsa certed autograph.

The advertising says to "customize your collection, add value to your collection, make your collection easier to market"

fold up the hobby, it's done.

http://www.leaftradingcards.com/population_report.php

heres the pop report on what has been made so far. make your own stacy keibler card and waste 40 bucks. unless you can find a sucker to pay 200 for it,

only 40 bucks per card to create your own pile of .....

RichardSimon
05-01-2012, 03:58 PM
I bookmarked that Leaf page so I know where to turn now when I want to not have a second helping of dessert after dinner. I am nauseous now.
This is the craziest thing I have ever seen in the autograph hobby.
And the wording in their ad: "add value to your collection, make your collection easier to market."
Is anyone stupid enough to think that is true?
If someone sold me some vintage autographs in those plastic tombs, the first thing I do is go for my hammer.
And they only accept the autograph if it has a full LOA from JSA or PSA.
Another bunch of jackasses putting JSA and PSA above everyone else in the hobby.
How about a receipt from Jim Stinson? How about an auction receipt from Leland's? I would take one of those over 10 PSA LOA's.

RichardSimon
05-01-2012, 04:06 PM
The business about putting in cuts that are PARTIAL Autographs is RIDICULOUS. This one is kinda funny. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

All you get is the "Dham Clinton"

for those who don't like her, or Willy, if you say that fast, its funny too.:p, but its sooooo ridiculous, to cut it like that. Its nothing bout legalized gambling, and those are garbage cards for the most part.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-topps-sterling-HILLARY-RODHAM-CLINTON-RARE-CUT-AUTO-2-10-no-MPS-122-/170825662887?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item27c600c1a7

These type of cards are the classic example of the card companies philosophies: "Anything for a buck." "Some idiot out there will buy it."
From the sellers ad on ebay:
"GREAT CARD TO HALV IN YOUR COLLECTION"
Yeah, that is what we have here, a halv an autograph.
this one has to go on my website.

travrosty
05-01-2012, 04:11 PM
where is the HIllary Rod part of the autograph. this is ridiculous.

i would rather have a stinson or equivalent receipt rather than a psa too.

its psa or jsa or else your autograph is fake -- type mentality and I am pretty sick of it. we see the joe louis didnt quite make it but it must have had jsa or psa, so leaf felt comfortable making a card out of that piece of junk autograph.

RichardSimon
05-01-2012, 04:17 PM
Our bad Travis, I think it is the autograph of Jon Louis, the famed uh,, duh,, ??
Now I can understand :D.

travrosty
05-01-2012, 05:23 PM
yeah, his little known brother jon louis.

haha

how either psa or jsa certed this just proves to me they know little to nothing about joe louis' signature.

but not the first time they have goofed up louis' signature. i have seen several others both with psa and jsa certification, including some 8 x 10 signed photos which have been listed on ebay for 4000 dollars.

this Joe Louis autograph would be flagged 5 seconds into my inspection and laughed right out of the building, but either spence or grad or their underlings carefully considered it and gave it the thumbs up? WTH?

Why are these two guys considered by Leaf or anyone else better than all the rest of us? I just don't get it either.

Exhibitman
05-03-2012, 10:45 AM
I believe that bad Louis is a secretarial. I have a similar one inscribed that I got a long time ago. The "L" is what made me think of it.

RichardSimon
05-03-2012, 10:58 AM
then the Leaf site should list it as a secretarial 1/1 from the Executive Collection. Wow, what an honor for the owner.
What about the rest of us who are not Executives?
Talk about the blind leading the blind.

travrosty
05-03-2012, 11:49 AM
People have made their own cards like this in the past, but this is the first time i have seen a credible brand name put to these cards where people can design their own.

leaf, you have joined the greedy ranks of the insert card hucksters.

Bilko G
05-04-2012, 07:23 AM
yeah, his little known brother jon louis.

haha

how either psa or jsa certed this just proves to me they know little to nothing about joe louis' signature.

but not the first time they have goofed up louis' signature. i have seen several others both with psa and jsa certification, including some 8 x 10 signed photos which have been listed on ebay for 4000 dollars.

this Joe Louis autograph would be flagged 5 seconds into my inspection and laughed right out of the building, but either spence or grad or their underlings carefully considered it and gave it the thumbs up? WTH?

Why are these two guys considered by Leaf or anyone else better than all the rest of us? I just don't get it either.


The Joe Louis is JSA certed BTW

Bilko G
05-04-2012, 07:38 AM
People have made their own cards like this in the past, but this is the first time i have seen a credible brand name put to these cards where people can design their own.

leaf, you have joined the greedy ranks of the insert card hucksters.


you do know this isn't the original Leaf company, right? Or even the one that was around in the 80s and 90s, either, right?



A well known Hobby dealer/businessman named Brian Gray purchased the Leaf name about 2 years ago. Before this Brian Gray had started his own card company called "Razor". Razor made a big splash a few years ago by signing all the top MLB draft picks from 2008 (I believe) to exclusive autograph contracts. These "Exclusives" kept other companies like Topps unable to create autographed cards of these top picks until they actually played an official MLB game. As im sure you guys know, it takes top picks sometimes 3, 4 or 5 years to get into an official MLB game.

Anyways, Brian's card company "Razor" had a bit of a following with the collectors that like top draft picks and top prospects, generally these people are called "Prospectors" as they like to buy in cheap and sell for a big profit if/when the player makes a big splash in the majors. Brian decided though that he wanted a more established name for his company and when the Leaf name came up, he bought it and changed his card company to Leaf. Brian and Leaf are based out of Texas, Dallas i believe but not 100% sure.

Bilko G
05-04-2012, 07:50 AM
And the wording in their ad: "add value to your collection, make your collection easier to market."
Is anyone stupid enough to think that is true?



Actually Richard, there has been a great many of people who have made a ton of money by doing just this.

RichardSimon
05-04-2012, 08:59 AM
Now you really upset me :D.
I can only go by what I buy and sell. I have never even seen this stuff until this thread. I have never been asked by anyone on my mailing list about these "things."
The 1/1 list on their website does not seem to be big enough for anyone to have made a lot of money doing this, assuming that many of those 1/1 were done by different people.
Has anyone seen this stuff on ebay or elsewhere?
Has anyone actually seen them sold?
Not offered for ridiculous prices, actually sold.
Bilko - have you seen these specific items sold? Are you certain that people have made a "ton" of money selling these Leaf autographs? Where were they sold for a "ton" of money?

travrosty
05-04-2012, 09:10 AM
The Joe Louis is JSA certed BTW


I would have guessed jsa. Although i wouldn't have been surprised by either company certing this. I see spence on the "all star dealers" show on tv, and the dealer on the show says he is the best, and spence shows up and plugs in his 30,000 spectral comparator machine and we are all suppose to be impressed. The best? Well, ok!!!!

RichardSimon
05-04-2012, 09:55 AM
When I worked for PSA we discussed that machine and the thinking was it was worth buying, even though we did not think we would ever use it. It sounded good to have it was what we thought.

travrosty
05-04-2012, 11:04 AM
the way he authenticates on that show is not what happens most of the time in real life i do not believe. he made it look careful and deliberate , but in reality, some of the time they look at a ball for a few seconds, make a determination on it, and put a sticker on it, and move on to the next ball.

They are not putting every ball in the machine like that.

I notice spence touts his 'certificate' in forensics when it serves his purpose, but then badmouths forensics (like in the authentication forum at a convention, when badmouthing it serves his purpose. trying to have it both ways. so if you like forensics, he's your man, and if you don't like forensics, then he's your man too!

RichardSimon
05-04-2012, 01:15 PM
When I worked for PSA they had us take a correspondence course from an FDE.
The course was about handwriting analysis. It was offered by an old FDE named Andrew Bradley.
All four of the authenticators received a certificate upon completing this course.
That is all the "forensic" training we had with PSA.

mighty bombjack
05-04-2012, 02:44 PM
Now you really upset me :D.
I can only go by what I buy and sell. I have never even seen this stuff until this thread. I have never been asked by anyone on my mailing list about these "things."
The 1/1 list on their website does not seem to be big enough for anyone to have made a lot of money doing this, assuming that many of those 1/1 were done by different people.
Has anyone seen this stuff on ebay or elsewhere?
Has anyone actually seen them sold?
Not offered for ridiculous prices, actually sold.
Bilko - have you seen these specific items sold? Are you certain that people have made a "ton" of money selling these Leaf autographs? Where were they sold for a "ton" of money?
I believe the Ichiro from this "product" sold quite well on eBay, but I don't have a number.

Bilko G
05-04-2012, 05:10 PM
Now you really upset me :D.
I can only go by what I buy and sell. I have never even seen this stuff until this thread. I have never been asked by anyone on my mailing list about these "things."
The 1/1 list on their website does not seem to be big enough for anyone to have made a lot of money doing this, assuming that many of those 1/1 were done by different people.
Has anyone seen this stuff on ebay or elsewhere?
Has anyone actually seen them sold?
Not offered for ridiculous prices, actually sold.
Bilko - have you seen these specific items sold? Are you certain that people have made a "ton" of money selling these Leaf autographs? Where were they sold for a "ton" of money?


Hahahaha, sorry Richard ;)

I shouldn't have said "a lot of people", more like some people. You may be surprised, but there is a market for these cards. You and i may not think they are the greatest but there have been many impressive sales in the past. I was watching many of these last year and can't remember them all, but some of the higher priced sales were Ichiro (like mentioned), Charles Barkely, Obama, Michael Jackson, Ted Williams etc.

Heres a Babe Ruth up for auction right now. What would this cut sell for just normally?? $1500-$2000??

Biddings at $3800 with 3+ days to go still.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-LEAF-EXECUTIVE-MASTERPIECE-CUTS-AUTO-BABE-RUTH-1-1-SIGNED-G-H-RUTH-RARE-/221013892310?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3375745cd6

Bilko G
05-04-2012, 05:18 PM
Has anyone seen this stuff on ebay or elsewhere?



Here Richard, i just looked on ebay, there is a whole wack load on here...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=leaf+executive+cuts&_sacat=0&_sop=16&_odkw=leaf+executive+cuts&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

RichardSimon
05-04-2012, 05:25 PM
Here Richard, i just looked on ebay, there is a whole wack load on here...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=See-All-Categories&_from=R40&_nkw=leaf%20executive%20cuts&_sop=16

that link goes to the ebay index page listing all the categories.
I am ill enough from seeing that Babe Ruth :D.
So let me understand this, if I had a G.H. Ruth cut, they would not put it in a plastic tomb for me because there is one already??
I am sorry but ARE PEOPLE FREAKIN' INSANE???????????
Take a $100 autograph, send it to Leaf with $40 and then sell it for multi-hundreds?????
Take a $1000 autograph, send it to Leaf with $40 and then sell it for multi-thousands?????
This is really happening???
P.T. Barnum is now my official hero. The heck with Clarence Darrow, Edward R. Murrow, the Kennedy's, Jefferson, Lincoln, Mark Twain and so on. All in my collection. I have to now get P.T. Barnum. There truly is a sucker born every minute and that famed saying of his makes everything ever said by Mark Twain pale in comparison.
I can actually sort of understand the idiocy behind the card company produced chase cards,, though I think that is nutso too.
BUT THIS is beyond the realm of anything I have seen before.
I don't know what else to say now. But I am sure I can and will say some more later on. This is just too stupid.

Bilko G
05-04-2012, 05:31 PM
that link goes to the ebay index page listing all the categories.
I am ill enough from seeing that Babe Ruth :D.
So let me understand this, if I had a G.H. Ruth cut, they would not put it in a plastic tomb for me because there is one already??
I am sorry but ARE PEOPLE FREAKIN' INSANE???????????


Try this one...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=leaf+executive+cuts&_sacat=0&_sop=16&_odkw=leaf+executive+cuts&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

If link doesn't work just search "Leaf Executive Cuts"

To answer your question Richard, Yes. I believe this is the second year they have done this now. So yes, once a 1/1 is created for that particular player you can not make another one until the following year, thats if they make another series next year.

The Ruth is insane, i agree. I can't remember the exact end price on the Ichiro, but it was somewhere around $2000.

There is money to be made off these though.

RichardSimon
05-04-2012, 05:37 PM
And that plastic tomb is FREAKIN' UGLY.
Not to mention that Leaf's markup on one stinky piece of plastic and one gold sticker is probably 5000%.

RichardSimon
05-04-2012, 05:44 PM
That link worked, thanks.
There are 123 of these idiot things on ebay now.
I cringe when I look at it.
And it appears there is a Beckett imprint on the plastic tomb. What does Beckett have to do with this crap?
And I love the Leaf disclaimer at the bottom of the plastic tomb.
These autographs have been authenticated by JSA or PSA but not Leaf.
So as "confident" as they are in this crap they still want to be sure to place all the blame on PSA and JSA if there is a bad autograph.

RichardSimon
05-04-2012, 06:10 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hank-Greenberg-2012-LEAF-CUT-MASTERPIECE-1-1-EXECUTIVE-COLLECTION-AUTO-HOFer-/350555222909?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item519eb8337d

idiotic ,,, this half a Greenberg sold for twice what a whole card should sell for.

AND

I am seeing cards listed for $50,$60 and $70 on ebay. With $40 charge from Leaf, $x charge from a TPA and ebay fees, who is kidding who here. Though I will concede that the vast majority of these cards are priced much higher than that.

RichardSimon
05-04-2012, 06:33 PM
Hahahaha, sorry Richard ;)

I shouldn't have said "a lot of people", more like some people. You may be surprised, but there is a market for these cards. You and i may not think they are the greatest but there have been many impressive sales in the past. I was watching many of these last year and can't remember them all, but some of the higher priced sales were Ichiro (like mentioned), Charles Barkely, Obama, Michael Jackson, Ted Williams etc.

Heres a Babe Ruth up for auction right now. What would this cut sell for just normally?? $1500-$2000??

Biddings at $3800 with 3+ days to go still.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-LEAF-EXECUTIVE-MASTERPIECE-CUTS-AUTO-BABE-RUTH-1-1-SIGNED-G-H-RUTH-RARE-/221013892310?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3375745cd6

The greater fool theory is alive and well.
This "thing" sold for $3100 in February. Naturally with the passage of such an extraordinary amount of time it is worth much more money now.
But remember the Tulip Mania came crashing down and people went broke.

Bilko G
05-05-2012, 05:49 AM
What does Beckett have to do with this crap?



As im sure you know, Beckett and JSA have been working together for a few years now. If you have in-person autographs on sports cards you can get JSA to authenticate them and then BGS will encapsulate them. Same sort of idea here. Beckett did the encapsulating of these Leaf executive cuts. If the item was already authenticated by either JSA or PSA, then Leaf made the card and Beckett incased it. If the autograph that was sent in was NOT authenticated yet, then JSA would first authenticate, then Leaf would make the card and BGS encapsulate. Beckett and Leaf are also both located in Dallas as well, so im sure it was easy and convenient for them to get together on this project.

The Babe Ruth is now over $4000.



I am seeing cards listed for $50,$60 and $70 on ebay. With $40 charge from Leaf, $x charge from a TPA and ebay fees, who is kidding who here. Though I will concede that the vast majority of these cards are priced much higher than that.

Im sure large submitters and/or friends of LEAF got deals on some of the submission charges.

thecatspajamas
05-05-2012, 11:47 AM
I am seeing cards listed for $50,$60 and $70 on ebay. With $40 charge from Leaf, $x charge from a TPA and ebay fees, who is kidding who here. Though I will concede that the vast majority of these cards are priced much higher than that.

There's also the distinct possibility that some of these things have sold for what they should sell for, and someone took a bath on the fees to construct them in the first place. I've bought whole collections of PSA slabbed autographed cards before where the amount I paid for the collection was less than the cost of the slabbing, and then turned around and sold many of them for less than what the slabbing would cost, but still turned a profit. I feel sorry for whatever collector sunk so much money into all that plastic in the first place, but it doesn't always ensure that the value of the card is increased by at least the cost of the slab.

On the other hand, maybe some of these sellers have come to their senses and are looking to get those monstrosities out of their collections asap :rolleyes:

RichardSimon
05-05-2012, 12:06 PM
On the other hand, maybe some of these sellers have come to their senses and are looking to get those monstrosities out of their collections asap :rolleyes:

Lance - you use the right word when you say seller but you also use the word collections and I think the right word there might be accumulations.
I don't think anyone collects these things the same way the members of this board collect autographs. They accumulate them hoping that the greater fool theory is still alive and well when they decide the time has come to sell.
As we all know the members of this board collect autographs for an entirely different reason.

travrosty
05-05-2012, 01:25 PM
people see 1 of 1 and they get crazy, a false scarcity, and i have had a heck of a time convincing people that these cuts exist outside of these cards too and don't cost but 1/10 of what they are offering them for.

they say in return "yeah, but those cuts arent in a 1 of 1 card like this, it's topps, it's upper deck."

I say back to them "so what?"

mighty bombjack
05-05-2012, 01:41 PM
people see 1 of 1 and they get crazy, a false scarcity, and i have had a heck of a time convincing people that these cuts exist outside of these cards too and don't cost but 1/10 of what they are offering them for.

they say in return "yeah, but those cuts arent in a 1 of 1 card like this, it's topps, it's upper deck."

I say back to them "so what?"

But do you collect baseball cards, too? Or at least understand why people do?

I can find a photo of Mickey Mantle in 1952 and write a nice bio and some stats on the back. But for some reason, people pay crazy amounts for the same thing made by Topps. Mine is scarcer, too!

RichardSimon
05-05-2012, 03:09 PM
But do you collect baseball cards, too? Or at least understand why people do?

I can find a photo of Mickey Mantle in 1952 and write a nice bio and some stats on the back. But for some reason, people pay crazy amounts for the same thing made by Topps. Mine is scarcer, too!

It is the artificially created shortages that is the thing that is just plain stupid.
The shortages at first were created by the card companies complete with forgeries and badly cut autographs, now you can create your own ridiculous artificial shortage with any cut autograph and a technicolor plastic tomb.
"Wow, it is 1/1 with a technicolor plastic tomb",,, "wow, I just got to have that plastic tomb with the 1/1 Bob Feller, it will always be worth more than I paid."
Someone putting a plastic technicolor tomb around an autograph, IMHO, is not creating a baseball card.
That someone has fallen for the Leaf hype and is a gambler, not a serious collector of autographs or cards.

mighty bombjack
05-05-2012, 03:38 PM
It is the artificially created shortages that is the thing that is just plain stupid.
The shortages at first were created by the card companies complete with forgeries and badly cut autographs, now you can create your own ridiculous artificial shortage with any cut autograph and a technicolor plastic tomb.
"Wow, it is 1/1 with a technicolor plastic tomb",,, "wow, I just got to have that plastic tomb with the 1/1 Bob Feller, it will always be worth more than I paid."
Someone putting a plastic technicolor tomb around an autograph, IMHO, is not creating a baseball card.
That someone has fallen for the Leaf hype and is a gambler, not a serious collector of autographs or cards.

We are in total agreement about what Leaf is doing, and we agree that many of these cuts are ugly, forgeries, and/or a shameful enterprise (when cutting up a letter or contract for the sig alone).

However, when a company does it right, these can be aesthetically pleasing, which does add value for many of us.

Case in point, I think I paid 32 buck for this Ted Lyons card for my HOF auto collection. That is more than a simple 3x5 would run me, but I like the photo, the registered White Sox trademark, and the overall layout. I don't really care about the numbering either way, but there may be some out there collecting the set. Who knows.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff105/mighty-bombjack/HOF%20autos%20NFT/Lyons.jpg

RichardSimon
05-05-2012, 04:44 PM
Well, if you bought the 3x5 of Lyons from me it would be less than $32 :), but in cases like this one I can see it from your point of view, though I still don't like it. It is just the lunacy of the 1/1 or the 1/(small number) which drives prices to ridiculous levels that totally irritates me.
Not only do they cut up letters and contracts, I have seen photos that have been cut for the signature.

Bilko G
05-05-2012, 05:56 PM
Well, if you bought the 3x5 of Lyons from me it would be less than $32 :), but in cases like this one I can see it from your point of view, though I still don't like it. It is just the lunacy of the 1/1 or the 1/(small number) which drives prices to ridiculous levels that totally irritates me.
Not only do they cut up letters and contracts, I have seen photos that have been cut for the signature.


Like mentioned above Richard, some people ONLY like collecting "cards". That's why they like the Cut signature cards made by Upper Deck or these "create your own cut signature card" by Leaf. People like that these cards are small and can easily be looked at when lying on the couch watching TV (for an example). Some people like the slabs that these Leaf cuts come in because they offer protection. I have a friend who loves collecting autographs but he doesn't care for 8x10's, Baseballs, Bats, Hockey pucks, letters etc., he likes to only collect autographs on cards, whether they are on card autographs or cut signature cards. He likes that his collection is uniformed in size and doesn't take up much space. He also likes to take a few of his autographs to work to look at or show off when he gets a break or is slow at work, he wouldn't be able to do this with Bats, 8x10s, letters etc.

travrosty
05-05-2012, 06:00 PM
But do you collect baseball cards, too? Or at least understand why people do?

I can find a photo of Mickey Mantle in 1952 and write a nice bio and some stats on the back. But for some reason, people pay crazy amounts for the same thing made by Topps. Mine is scarcer, too!

because autographs arent the same as baseball cards, the autograph wasnt made by you or me, it was made by the athlete. putting it in a little card holder and adding 10X the value, why?

it's stupid.

its not a leaf autograph, or a roste autograph, its an autograph of mickey mantle.


its the pricing that is crazy and the way they mangle the autographs. the will cut an autograph from a photo or check, and put it in a holder, then charge more than what the signed photo or check was worth. way more too.

if the lyons was 300 dollars, would you buy it? 5 dollar autographs like the cut max schmeling routinely get listed for 300. ridiculous and insulting.


if someone likes collecting, small portable autographs, they can collect index cards or cut autograph on paper. why pay 2500 dollars or more for a rocky marciano upper deck 1 of 1, when a cut or index card of marciano can be had for 400 dollars?

Bilko G
05-05-2012, 06:28 PM
if someone likes collecting, small portable autographs, they can collect index cards or cut autograph on paper. why pay 2500 dollars or more for a rocky marciano upper deck 1 of 1, when a cut or index card of marciano can be had for 400 dollars?


People also like how the autograph is presented. Instead of just having a white index card, they like how the cut signature card has a picture of the player and the team logo. This is were the value comes from between a blank index card and a cut signature card. Topps pays the players association, the league and if the player is deceased, his estate, millions of dollars to use that players likeness and the teams logo on the card, that is where a lot of the value comes from in these cut signature cards.

RichardSimon
05-05-2012, 09:01 PM
People also like how the autograph is presented. Instead of just having a white index card, they like how the cut signature card has a picture of the player and the team logo. This is were the value comes from between a blank index card and a cut signature card. Topps pays the players association, the league and if the player is deceased, his estate, millions of dollars to use that players likeness and the teams logo on the card, that is where a lot of the value comes from in these cut signature cards.


I hesitate to call it value Bilko. A vintage autograph has a certain value determined by supply and demand.
A vintage autograph on one of these "things" has a price on it based on speculation and the hope of the current owner that the greater fool theory will hold for a few more days/weeks/months until he decides to sell it. Though he may not be aware of Tulip Mania he is also, probably subconsciously, hoping that the world does not sober up in time so that he is the last one left holding the bag with that "thing" in it.
And obviously though it is a matter of taste collectors, not speculators, usually prefer making their own display for a vintage autograph.
For thirty bucks if you like the way that Lyons looks that is great. But when you get into high dollar amounts I really don't believe that people are spending that kind of money for anything other than speculation.

mighty bombjack
05-05-2012, 09:20 PM
I hesitate to call it value Bilko. A vintage autograph has a certain value determined by supply and demand.
A vintage autograph on one of these "things" has a price on it based on speculation and the hope of the current owner that the greater fool theory will hold for a few more days/weeks/months until he decides to sell it. Though he may not be aware of Tulip Mania he is also, probably subconsciously, hoping that the world does not sober up in time so that he is the last one left holding the bag with that "thing" in it.
And obviously though it is a matter of taste collectors, not speculators, usually prefer making their own display for a vintage autograph.
For thirty bucks if you like the way that Lyons looks that is great. But when you get into high dollar amounts I really don't believe that people are spending that kind of money for anything other than speculation.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. What Travis is arguing about the companies presenting something and your argument about tuilp mania are arguments against collecting autos and cards IN GENERAL. None of the things discussed on these boards have any intrinsic value. It is all supply and demand, and the demand is there for autos presented by a retailer. Hence, they are supplying it. When and if the buyers of those realize that there are no "greater fools" to flp to, they may than realize and believe that any scribbles on a paper are worthless in general. And when they do, the proverbial dominoes may fall, all of our scribbles may become worthless.

mighty bombjack
05-05-2012, 09:25 PM
because autographs arent the same as baseball cards, the autograph wasnt made by you or me, it was made by the athlete. putting it in a little card holder and adding 10X the value, why?

it's stupid.

its not a leaf autograph, or a roste autograph, its an autograph of mickey mantle.


its the pricing that is crazy and the way they mangle the autographs. the will cut an autograph from a photo or check, and put it in a holder, then charge more than what the signed photo or check was worth. way more too.

if the lyons was 300 dollars, would you buy it? 5 dollar autographs like the cut max schmeling routinely get listed for 300. ridiculous and insulting.


if someone likes collecting, small portable autographs, they can collect index cards or cut autograph on paper. why pay 2500 dollars or more for a rocky marciano upper deck 1 of 1, when a cut or index card of marciano can be had for 400 dollars?

You didnt answer my question. Do you collect baseball cards?

If you only collects autos, then I can see your point of view (which is not the same as agreeing with it).