t206 question about alterations/BS

[rainier2004]

Alright the hoards of you...

I read these posts on trimmed t206s ALL the time like the goodwin/rea plank, wagners and other stars/rare cards. Does it ever turn you guys off that the t206 set is seems so targeted by frauds? But it sure seems that the t206's are a HUGE target and every time I read a thread like the one on the rea plank, it sure makes me not want to get into them just like auto's. These trimmed and altered cards just make this hobby look like a crooks world. I know, I know it happens to several vintage cards but the t206s seem to have the most complaints of alterations, targets and folks arguing about the alterations. I knwo there are several of you out there so it gets discussed ALT, but it makes my stomach turn.

So, does this stuff ever make you want to go "Im done with t206's" or have any of you quit collecting them for this reason? And yes, they are beautiful cards.

[danmckee]

A little different than bad autographs. A bad autograph can be compared to a T206 reprint but not an altered card. The altered card is still an original and I would still collect it if it is appealing to the naked eye in a binder.

I just have a real problem with the professional grading of the altered cards.

[phikappapsi]

No different than art, coins, jewelry, the stock market, or the US government... If large sums of money get involved, fraud will certainly be along for the ride.

The best anyone can do is self educate. Ask questions, learn what you're getting into before you really get in to it, and deal with reputable people and companies in the business.

It's the best you can do really.

[ullmandds]

I've quit collecting t206's because of the ridiculous prices rare backs have been commanding...and due to their common-ness!

The reason it seems T206's are targeted is because of the sheer # of them and because many novice vintage collectors start with them...and are more succeptible to altered cards...or fakes...in my opinion.

[Runscott]

Alright the hoards of you...

I read these posts on trimmed t206s ALL the time like the goodwin/rea plank, wagners and other stars/rare cards. Does it ever turn you guys off that the t206 set is seems so targeted by frauds?

Steven, I think you are confused because there are more posts about T206s and more T206 cards on the market. The ratio of trimming to card is probably the same as for any other set.

[brass_rat]

Yes, it drives me nuts. Just as bad as trimming is all of the bleaching that goes on...it seems like people are only concerned about trim jobs while loads of T206 cards glow in the dark. The bleaching isn't just a problem for the T206 crowd...there are plenty of cards from other sets that have been swimming in chemicals and undergone surgery, and I can't stand it. These cards inevitably end up in auctions as miraculous examples, but seriously, were the borders really that white when the cards were in the smokers' hands 100 years ago?

I'm about 40-45% done with my T206 set, but I've put it on hold while I figure out how to proceed...I was going for a nice set in the psa/sgc 5 and 6 range, but I'm too tired of sitting there nit picking over scans searching for clues about the knives and chemicals. It's especially difficult when you can't trust TPG to look for either of them.

The adverse selection with respect to buying online is pretty bad as well. A weak scan of a card in a 5 or 6 equivalent holder? You're likely to end up with an overgraded or altered card...the weak scan or photo is just to cover that up. My problem is going to shows, I can actually see the cards and inspect them (although using a small handheld blacklight is still tough) but then you have to deal with haggling over inflated show prices.

Sorry for getting off topic a little, but the short answer is yes, it's irritating. Putting together the set was a dream in my childhood, and now I finally have the time and resources...but I need to find a more peaceful way of collecting it. :) that just means slowing down and becoming more selective. I also enjoy collecting cards where the condition isn't as big of a deal as the actual card example itself...

Have a good one,
Steve

[Runscott]

I'm about 40-45% done with my T206 set, but I've put it on hold while I figure out how to proceed...I was going for a nice set in the psa/sgc 5 and 6 range, but I'm too tired of sitting there nit picking over scans searching for clues about the knives and chemicals.
Have a good one,
Steve

Steve, think about going for an ungraded mid-grade set, choosing cards for visual appeal. Get them cheap, sell off cards you don't like as you find decent upgrades. I've been doing it that way, with the added twist of finding something 'odd' about most of my keepers and upgrading to 'more odder' keepers; e.g: tough backs, two names, misfits, etc. A nice thing about doing it the 'ungraded' way, is that you won't care as much if you think a card might be trimmed - as long as you like it, you keep it. Final benefit: sell off those slabs for big bucks and replace with cheap tobacco top loaders that allow you to easily access your cards and see their true beauty.

[irishdenny]

Steve, think about going for an ungraded mid-grade set, choosing cards for visual appeal. Get them cheap, sell off cards you don't like as you find decent upgrades. I've been doing it that way, with the added twist of finding something 'odd' about most of my keepers and upgrading to 'more odder' keepers; e.g: tough backs, two names, misfits, etc. A nice thing about doing it the 'ungraded' way, is that you won't care as much if you think a card might be trimmed - as long as you like it, you keep it. Final benefit: sell off those slabs for big bucks and replace with cheap tobacco top loaders that allow you to easily access your cards and see their true beauty.

"Most Excellent Advice!"

[brass_rat]

Hey Scott,

That's great advice, thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm Going to do something similar...stepping down a notch in grade (I actually like the visual appeal of slightly rounded corners, call me crazy!) but keeping them the the holders...it makes it easy to move things around, and I don't have to worry about anything when sharing my collection with relatives (some of the younger ones are prone to dropping things...)

I do plan on disposing of some higher grade examples...selling off ones I know are good, and getting the TPG to buy back ones that I can show are bleached.

Thanks,
Steve

Steve, think about going for an ungraded mid-grade set, choosing cards for visual appeal. Get them cheap, sell off cards you don't like as you find decent upgrades. I've been doing it that way, with the added twist of finding something 'odd' about most of my keepers and upgrading to 'more odder' keepers; e.g: tough backs, two names, misfits, etc. A nice thing about doing it the 'ungraded' way, is that you won't care as much if you think a card might be trimmed - as long as you like it, you keep it. Final benefit: sell off those slabs for big bucks and replace with cheap tobacco top loaders that allow you to easily access your cards and see their true beauty.

[Steve D]

I just wonder how many of the trimmed T206's around today, are a result of collectors (like me) who trimmed the cards only because that was the only way to get them into the early plastic pages.

As has been mentioned in another thread here, the early pages made back in the 1970s were side-loading, so any of the oversized T206's would not fit in the page's pockets. The absolute only way to get them in the page was to trim the top/bottom of the cards. I did just that with an absolutely gorgeous Addie Joss portrait and a not so steady x-acto knife :(

It wasn't until the late '80s/early '90s, I believe, when the first top-loading pages began to appear, that this problem was fixed.

Steve

[rainier2004]

Steven, I think you are confused because there are more posts about T206s and more T206 cards on the market. The ratio of trimming to card is probably the same as for any other set.

Scott - I understand math, but do you really feel the ratio is the same on altered 206s versus other cards? It sure seems that t206s are the biggest target b/c they have the biggest audience including novices because they are affordable. So do you feel all vintage cards are altered in the same ratio per set?

[Runscott]

Scott - I understand math, but do you really feel the ratio is the same on altered 206s versus other cards? It sure seems that t206s are the biggest target b/c they have the biggest audience including novices because they are affordable. So do you feel all vintage cards are altered in the same ratio per set?

My initial thought was that the T206 set is not being picked on. If someone could show me some evidence that this is not the case, I would certainly change my mind. I really think that any valuable card is a target for trimming, especially CJ's, as they are thinner, and some of the caramels which have larger and less uniform border sizes.