Hobby supplies history

[steve B]

While not prewar, the topic came up in one of the Wagner threads and I figured this was a good time to expand on it a bit.

One poster mentioned Enor sheets as early as 1976, which sounds right.

I'll have to find them to check the maker but the oldest sheets I've seen were around in 1974 and were sold at K mart. There was an album with all 24 team logos on the cover as well.

Those pages were pretty bad. Sideloading, with the inner row loading on the right and the other two loading on the left. And very tight on size, barely enough room for a Topps card. Usually the inner row and the middle row would rub together.

Anyone know of earlier pages?

earliest toploaders?
screwdowns?

I may be a bit crazy, but I do keep a small collection of different holders, pages etc.

Steve B

[obcbobd]

Hi,

I still have one of those albums. 1974 sounds about right as I believe I had just started Jr High when they came out (or at least I noticed them). The pages were side loading and BARELY fit a Topps card. I think I may have even damaged a few cards trying to squeeze them in.

thanks

Bob

[oaks1912]

The small albums with team logos were sold at Toys R' Us and other stores around 1974 and were the first sheets, as I recall, that were designed just for baseball cards. They were produced by K & M Company in Southern California. Initially only 9 pocket side loaders were made for standard cards. Around a year or two later a collector from Tennessee (Gene Lebo) marketed plastic 'wall hangers' which fit 1950's cards. I think I still have one or two of those, but they were very impractical......... Prior to these 'card' sheets, I can recall using sheets / albums designed for photos which were sold at a local drug store. The cards slipped around like a nail in an otherwise empty Cracker Jack box.... It sure beat putting cards in those photo albums with the peel back plastic and adhesive lines which ruined many collections over the years...

[sirraffles]

Back in '76 I made the first acrylic cardholders. Also made the first injection molded holders around '83 or so.

[steve B]

The first acrylic - Were those the folded ones? I still have some of those. Very dependable holders, but they do flatten two corners after a couple decades. Our area had the originals and after about 6 months someone was making knockoffs that weren't finished as well.

Injection molded in 83? I'm trying to recall which those are. I have a few very old screwdowns some molded some just lexan with screws. I also have one from 82-3? Maybe earlier that was very advanced. It had a cardboard insert that had a nice pattern, and was a screwdown with nylon screws. The dealer I hung out at gave me the sample one he'd been sent. He never did carry them as they were really expensive and hardly any one said they'd buy them.

Steve B

[sirraffles]

Actually, the ones with the patterned cardboard insert and nylon screws came before the others. You are right, they were expensive. At first I packed them in individual boxes, then bags with a printed header. Of course, cards weren't worth all that much in the '70's and collectors had no experience with individual card holders. Oh, I can't count the times that I heard, "but that's as much as the card is worth!" I did end up selling maybe 30-40k of them over a few years. Next I did the fold overs, as a response to the price issue. I never did like them, in fact I hated them. I got out of making those as quickly as I could. Others started making them almost immediately and continued for some time.

The injection molded ones might have been a little earlier than '83. They snapped together and had a recessed spot for the card. I left enough space at the bottom for my "big idea"-hot stamping things like "Rookie Card" or "MVP". I sold quite a few of those.

By around '82 people had been making sheets for a long time but there was always a shortage as the hobby was growing quite quickly. I found an agent in Taiwan, at the time not an easy thing to do for a very small business, and imported a load of half a million sheets. They arrived in a cold December and were absolutely frozen solid. I had a huge pile of cases in the middle of the warehouse that took almost ten days to thaw out. You could see a really thick cloud of steam coming off them. Only in retrospect does it seem humorous to me...I'd invested almost all my cash into the scheme and had only a big pile of steaming .... to show for it. The sheets were forever damaged and were really, really terrible. I was going to throw them away but dealers were so desperate for sheets that they wanted them anyway. In the end I made a handsome profit selling frozen blocks of 100 sheets each. Those were the days!

[steve B]

These snap together holders? I liked them, but couldn't find them where I lived at the time. As you can see, I still use the few I have.

Great stuff, those ones with the insert are probably the nicest holders I've seen. They might do well today, but yeah, at the time it was a choice of getting a holder or a somewhat interesting card. (Or in my case a fistful of commons)

What pages did you bring in? While it must have been horrible at the time the story of the whole pile of cases frozen is kinda funny now.

I'm thinking of attempting a hobby supplies timeline.

Steve B

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=6621

[sirraffles]

No, not that one. I'll see if I have one somewhere that I can scan. The one you pictured came out a long time after. I can't remember who made it. Around '88 there was an explosion of new molded holders, it was hard for even me to keep track and that was my business. Every day seemed to bring in a package from a new player with holder samples. I remember one that continuously beeped "Take Me Out to the Ballgame". It wouldn't stop, it kept going and going until I nearly lost my mind and threw it to the ground. There was this long pause and then it started beeping again.

The Taiwan pages that I brought in didn't have a brand name. I had found a manufacturer and had basically sent him a MVP sheet (Command Plastics, Ohio) to knock off. I wanted to see what the first batch actually looked like before I would commit to putting my company name on them. Boy, they sure were frozen solid. I smacked one brick against the wall and the whole thing just exploded into shards! Over the years I had tried to interest other plastic converters domestically to make sheets. None would. I sure didn't want to get into manufacturing but in '86 or '87 I bought a couple specialty machines to do so.

The supply business was dog-eat-dog, really quite vicious. I'm sure many of us remember when the first rigid holders made it into the country. Some guy from NJ had them. He charged $250 for a case of 1000, no discounts. He wouldn't even take my call so I bought a load from Taiwan. They could only supply 100 cases and the price was 125.00ppd a case. I sold out the first day. By 1992 things were upside down and there was a huge glut nationally. I remember buying full containers of 1.2 million holders at 2.2 cents each, then having to flip them for as low as 2.3 cents each. It was a stupid time, but that was what the market was.

[steve B]

Wow, I'm thinking the beeping one didn't sell well. I never saw one, and without an off switch I'm not surprised.

One of the big companies was local, Rotman. They were primarily a waterbed maker, but had the machines making sheets. Some of the local guys used to go there to pick up their orders.

Steve B

[sirraffles]

I didn't know Rotman made waterbeds, but it makes sense. That type of equipment could do both.

[bh3443]

Good Morning Steve,
First, let me applaud you for starting this great thread. Since you & I are from the Boston area, our findings are similar.
In the mid 70's, I bought those Logo binders with sheets at the Marlboro Mammoth Mart which later became The Mart and eventually Zarze. Interestingly enough, my silent partner in my Framingham Store (1980-1985) was a VP at Zarze and we traced the sheets to a company in Milton, Massachusetts called RW Baldwin. The binders we found were those brown "Sports Collection" type and made by Elbe Corporation in Fall River, Mass.
Now, board member Jeff Weisenberg/National Card Investors (a close friend since we were kids and the # 1 guy at Rotman's al those years) can fill in the details from here, but if my memory serves me correctly, Steve Rotman bought the Elbe binder Company, either bought out RW Baldwin Sheet Company and eventually was using 20th Century Plastics in CA by the early 1980's, and he was using Worcester, MA Corrogated Box Co for making the storage boxes.

As most of you know, I travelled extensively all over the US to do shows with hobby pioneer and supply dealer Bob Thing from Maine and we remain very close after all these decades. Bob was getting some supplies from Rotman until a historic meeting at the 1981 Willow Grove Show, when we were introduced to 2 gentlemen from Ohio who owned MVP Sheets. A deal was struck on price/quantity in the lounge at the old George Washington Motor Lodge and Bob and I began trucking van loads of sheets from Ohio back to New England.

As for single card holders (screw downs), I always had a crew of guys that would hand make them for us. This went on until a show in Southern Conn when someone showed us what's now known as the rigid holder. They first appeared in our circle in 1985 or 1986.

Then with the hobby boom of the 90's, Ultra Pro and BBC World pretty much priced everyone out of the market with a decent line of products at low prices.

Although we had fun and made money with supplies ( I was a little guy with shows and stores) but Bob was a good size wholesaler, it was exciting as the various products developed and hit the market.

These days, I get my supplies from Bob when he comes to visit me. He's THE guy at the GBSCC for supplies!

I hope this info helps shed some light on the history of supplies as I remember it, and again, Steve, thanks for starting a great thread. It's always great talking hobby issues with you. My best to you & your family!

Bill Hedin

[Steve D]

I hated those screwdowns with the black cardboard insert and plastic screws!

You had to be exceptionally careful when putting a card in the holder or taking one out, since the cut-out in the insert was too often a bit on the small side.

My parents bought me a Pete Rose rookie card for Christmas in 1984 (my last Christmas before going into the US Air Force in January 1985), and it was in one of those holders. When I tried to take the card out of the holder, it was wedged into the insert so tightly, it couldn't be removed without damaging the corners.

I had also bought several of the holders to put some of my cards in, and could not get a lot of the cards in the holders due to the too-small openings.

Also, the screws could not always be tightened completely, and could be easily stripped, causing the holder to remain loose.

Steve

[bh3443]

I hated those screwdowns with the black cardboard insert and plastic screws!

You had to be exceptionally careful when putting a card in the holder or taking one out, since the cut-out in the insert was too often a bit on the small side.

My parents bought me a Pete Rose rookie card for Christmas in 1984 (my last Christmas before going into the US Air Force in January 1985), and it was in one of those holders. When I tried to take the card out of the holder, it was wedged into the insert so tightly, it couldn't be removed without damaging the corners.

I had also bought several of the holders to put some of my cards in, and could not get a lot of the cards in the holders due to the too-small openings.

Also, the screws could not always be tightened completely, and could be easily stripped, causing the holder to remain loose.

Steve

Hi Steve ,
When the crew of guys were making these screw downs, there were some problems that were short and long term and some horrible results!

First off, at one point I had to buy a box of extra screws because of what you said: they strip easy and don't always line up right!

Secondly, I had a good friend who was a huge Dave Winfield fan and collector. He worked for me in the store and he accumulated well over 50 Winfield Rookies back in the 80's when they were a hot hot card. Well, my friend Dave put them ALL in those screw downs. When he left for college out in UCLA, he sold me his collection. I was happy to have 50+ Winfield Rookies as they were really selling well. So, I displayed them and within minutes a customer bought one and asked me for a screw driver to free the card and look at this gem mint beauty. To my horror (and his), once un-screwing the holder, the card was stuck to the front piece and it would not budge. After an hour or so, we decided that I'd refund him and remove the card and then sell it to him once freed!
Well, the card came off the screw down, but all 4 corners remained on the screw down, and it became apparent that every one of the 50+ Winfield cards were now part card and part screw down! After removing and destroying 4-5 of them, I had to do something, so I sold them "as is" for $ 5 a card and explained why to the buyers.
Why did this happen? I'm not exactly sure, but we found out that the maker of the holders was using basically any type of plexi-glass, lucite or whatever clear scrap junk the hardware store would sell him!
This fiasco helped launch a big investigation into the supply industry and guys on here like Frank Barning and many of us that read SCD/BHN will recall the "IS PVC BAD FOR CARDS" issue that put fear in the hearts of many collectors and dealers.

I knew when Steve B started this thread that I'd have some interesting input, and once again, thanks Steve for this fun thread!

In closing, I hope we never have issues like the screw downs with all those PSA/BECKETT/SGC holders! Now that would be a nightmare!

Regards,
Bill Hedin

[steve B]

Fascinating stuff.

My one T3 is in a screwdown I made myself from hardware store plastic. So far it's held up fine. The card was pretty well trashed when I bought it.

Oddly, some cards I had in larger screwdowns came out ok, despite the plastic showing some weird damage. The holders look almost melted, but haven't been around any heat.

I remember the Baldwin sheets. And I think the MVP sheets too. As well as the othe early PVC sheets, that I've got a bunch of. They never damaged my cards, but they did stick together after a while.

Interesting that it was a regional thing. I always just assumed the sheets were sold nationally.

I had some doubts about the grading holders, and still do. But they've got a few years into it without the problems I'd expected so they're probably ok.

Keep it coming guys, to me this is a fascinating look at an aspect of the hobby that hardly ever gets a mention.

Steve B

[bh3443]

Hi Steve,
Like I said, you started a really great thread!
I'm due to call my pal Bob Thing and with this topic hot, I'll be calling him later this evening.
I have a dozen questions ready for Bob's input already. Including the pre- Rotman/RW Baldwin details.
I recall a dealer at the 1979 Detroit show who had one of the logo binders full of sheets that specifically fit standard T cards and I recall this collector telling and showing me that not every T card ( E and N as well as other cards)fit in the sheets.

I've begun wondering about card storage/display prior to plastic sheets. I remember some old-timers in the 70's who used a basic mounting system with scrap books and corner hinges. I always felt that method would be problematic as far as the corners and fading issues.

Steve, I think I still have a box of the MVP "Patriotic" test sheets which came 99 in a box with 33 red/white/vlue tinted sheets!

I'll dig up some answers from our friend Bob in Maine and I'll share the details tonight! Should you have any particular questions to relay to Bob, email me at: bh3443@aol.com. It will be my pleasure to help in any way.

Regards,
Bill Hedin

[toppcat]

Some of those old screwdowns were not safe for the cards-I lost a bunch of nice 75 Topps Minis to them back in the day, LOL.

Anyone have the 9 pocket sheets that yellow and brown but amazingly do not affect the cards?

[GasHouseGang]

When you started off on this hobby supplies discussion, the first item I can remember storing cards in was a "baseball card locker" that was available at one of the local stores. Here's a picture of what I'm talking about. These were available in the 1960's and into the 1970's. I have one that includes the Pilots, so it has to be from 1969.

[steve B]

Those cases are really nice! Topps had them as a premium for a couple years, I think the red and green ones. I have those but in pretty beat condition.

I've never seen the blue one.

There was a similar case in the late 70's. Notebookish construction, with a plastic insert.

I haven't seen the pages that turn brown.

Steve B

[ArchStanton]

This looks like the correct thread for this question. Is anyone familiar with Den's Collectors Den in Laurel, MD? I'm sure there were other dealers that did sets like this. When did it start? 1976 is the oldest one I have, but I also have a 1979 set done the same way. The PVC pages have his company name and address on them in the same place MVP would put their name. The pages from the '79 set look identical.

I picked this up at an auction about 10 years ago. It is the first I saw anything from that dealer.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/JeffAlbertson/1976%20Topps/Cover.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/JeffAlbertson/1976%20Topps/pamphletcover.jpg

[bh3443]

Good Morning,
It brought a smile to my face to see my pal Denny Ecke's name here.
Denny was the guy with Jim Beckett on the early Sport Americana Price Books.
Denny carried a nice array of supplies and cards and was a wonderful friend as well as knowledgable hobbyist.
One night in Cincinnati after a show, we were out at a Jazz club having a few cocktails and blowing off some steam from a very busy day. I was pretty hammered, and I said to Denny that I was surprised such a big player in the business remembered my name let alone was such a good friend. He smiled and told me that friends were the reason to traveled to so many shows.
It was a few months later that I learned Denny passed away. He was too young for such a tragedy, but I can assure you this great man loved the hobby and will never be forgotten.
His marketing tequniques were interesting, and he was always on the cutting edge of the next hot things collectors needed.
Thanks for bringing up his name and I'll be lighting a candle for my pal Denny in Church tomorrow.
Your Friend,
Bill Hedin