Reasons to agree with DAN McKEE....regarding the PIEDMONT Plank

[tedzan]

Prior to this Goodwin PIEDMONT Plank, only 3 (or 4) T206's with this Front/Back combo have been found. The best example of these Plank's is the
Charlie Conlin Plank. It is graded PSA Authentic. The provenance of Conlin's Plank is very noteworthy since it was cut from the same (partial) sheet
that included the Gretzky Wagner.

Now, my contention here is that there is a very high probability that this Goodwin PIEDMONT 150 Factory 25 Plank was never in a PIEDMONT pack.

Consider the following factors......

1......To date the only T206 Eddie Plank cards that are found Factory-Cut were printed with these 3 backs..........

SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory 25....Richmond, VA tobacco factory whose market distribution was primarily in the South, and included Pennsylvania

SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory 30....New York City, NY tobacco factory whose market distribution was primarily in the New York-New England area.

SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory 30....New York City, NY tobacco factory whose market distribution was primarily in the New York-New England area.


Surveys of these Plank cards indicate that the greater majority of them are either SC 150 Factory 30 or SC 350 Factory 30 cards. Very few are
SC 150 Factory 25 cards. The dearth of Factory 25 Plank cards, in my opinion can be attributed to American Litho's (ALC) intentions to avoid (or
minimize) the distribution of Plank's in the greater Philadelphia area.

It is known that Eddie Plank and his boss, Connie Mack, were anti-tobacco guys. I would dare say....that before all the hype associated with Honus
Wagner....Connie Mack (and/or) Eddie Plank issued a "cease & desist" order to the American Tobacco Co. to remove Plank's image from the T206 set.

If my hypothesis is valid, it can explain why there are few SC 150 Factory 25 Plank's. More significantly, it can also explain why PIEDMONT 150 Plank
cards were never marketed in PIEDMONT cigarette packs. It appears, ALC got around the cease & desist order (for a while longer) by excluding the
Philadelphia market since they stopped shipping Plank's to Factory 25.

However, ALC surrepticiously continued to market their SC 150 Plank by delivering them to the NYC factory (#30).....which shipped SWEET CAPORAL
cigarette packs to the New York and New England areas. This practice stretched out long enough for ALC to continue printing a number of Plank's into
their 350 Series.

2......Actual evidence of excluding the Philly market is alluded to in an ALC packing log that specifically states on a SWEET CAPORAL shipping pack's
destination....
"other than Philadelphia territory".

Finally, that's my take (after collecting T206's for 32 years) on why I don't think we will find a true Factory Cut T206 Plank with a PIEDMONT 150
back.

So, until the provenance of the Goodwin PIEDMONT Plank can be ascertained, I agree with Dan McKee that this card should not have a numerical
grade. I'm sure others on this forum may differ; and, that's fine as long as we can have a meaningful conversation on this subject.


T-Rex TED

[FrankWakefield]

Sounds reasonable to me, Ted. So we now hunker down while the 'responses' rain down...

[Gradedcardman]

Ted, I hope to gain this amount of knowledge to be included in some of these discussions. I look back and wonder where I would be with T206's had I not taken 15 years away from the hobby altogether.

[Leon]

The card is neither hand cut nor trimmed and is in the correct holder. Other theories are just that....theories.

[E93]

Ted my friend,
That sounds like a lot of conjecture. Seems to me the evidence is that 25% of the Piedmont Planks are factory cuts. Do you have a scan of the ALC shipping documents you mention?
JimB

[atx840]

This is a very small sample size to state that no P150 Planks were factory cut. A few might have been, first run samplers or test prints.

I feel bad for the card though :(

[Cardboard Junkie]

In my humble opinion the plank mentioned does not deserve a numerical grade. dave.

[BleedinBlue]

I've still not held the card in my hand and need to defer to the experts who were convinced it was hand-cut before being swayed by the evidence that it was factory cut.

There was overwhelming evidence at one point that the earth was flat also.

[rdixon1208]

I thought about starting a new thread titled:

Reasons to disagree with Ted Zandikis' thread agreeing with Dan McKee's thread....regarding the PIEDMONT Plank

I decided to just post on one of the threads that already existed instead. :cool:

[Ronnie73]

I personally feel that the piedmont back Planks are all hand cut. The reason for it, I don't know but the theorys are interesting and possibly true. If the SGC numerical graded plank was hand cut from a sheet many many years ago and it was cut at exact size and the edges are properly aged, I can see how it would get a numerical grade. If there were documents stating the fact that all Piedmont Planks were hand cut, then it would have gotten an authentic grade. I know we all always say "buy the card and not the holder" but in this case, I believe the holder is going to sell the card at a much higher price than if the card was raw and believed to be hand cut which it still could be. Many now believe the Honus Wagner PSA 8 is hand cut but at its last sale, it wasn't a thought. Now that its a possibilty, would it still fetch the same price level? I do, unless its broken out of its case and regraded as authentic.

[Runscott]

This Plank doesn't fit with any of the reasonable theories we currently have about the Plank. The theories we have were based on research, not on looking at the edges of a card under a magnifier. The theories could be wrong, but as far as I can tell, there's no monetary benefit to the theorists. Also, the card could have been hand-cut 100 years ago and the evidence worn away over time. Hard to say either way, but it's funny how people on both sides can be so absolutely certain that they are right.

Ted - thanks for sharing. Sorry to see the demeaning comments.

[3-2-count]

I feel bad for the card though :(


Me too!

[ctownboy]

My question is and always has been this. If another T206 (say Harry Pattee) only had four known cards with a certain back and three of them were deemed hand cut, if a fourth were found and it looked factory cut, would it be graded and labeled as such or would it be deemed Authentic just like the other three?

My questions are, does the name on the front of the card, the owner and how much money is involved sway opinions in ways that a Harry Pattee owned by Joe Schmo wouldn't?

David

Edited to add this.

It seems to me that a lot of people think the Gretzky Wagner was cut from a sheet MANY years after the sheet was printed. Yet PSA graded it an 8 (or whatever). Now, if it was cut from a sheet and PSA had just graded it Authentic from the beginning, would people STILL want to pay $3 million dollars for it? Would OTHER Wagners be worth as much as they are now?

I doubt it for both questions.

The Gretzky Wagner seems to me to have the "all ships rise with the high tide" affect on the other Wagners. It sells for $1.5 million and the other Wagners increase when they sell. Gretzky Wagner sells for $2 million and all other Wagners increase when they sell. Gretzky Wagner sells for $3 million and all other Wagners increase when they sell.

This seems like a house of cards thing to me. Regrade the Gretzky Wagner and if it comes back as Authentic then it isn't a $3 million dollar card. If that happens then the next highest graded Wagner (a five?) wouldn't be a $2 million dollar card and so on down the line.

In short, take the Gretzky Wagner from the top of the heap and everything under it would have to be re-evaluated, re-examined and probably revalued.

If this Plank remains graded and sells for a high price then I can see ALL Planks going up in value and especially the hand cut cards graded as Authentic.

But that is just my opinion and what do I know??????

[Peter_Spaeth]

The same (somewhat circular) logic used to defend the Plank (SGC saw it up close so they must be right) should also apply to the Gretzky Wagner, but it seems a higher percentage of people think the Plank deserves its numerical grade than think the Wagner does. It's unfortunate no information about provvenance has been made available regarding the Plank.

I remain skeptical; it seems odd to me that after all this time the first ever factory-cut Piedmont Plank would suddenly emerge in a high grade holder; and (I understand the limitations of scans) the lower left corner looks unnatural.

[CMIZ5290]

It has been made clear on this forum that alot of the people are aginst the plank and magee cards...what about opinions on the other somewhat uncommon card, the sgc 84 doyle? The bottom right corner is what concerns me especially with the grade given. Can't imagine psa giving that card a 7.....

[teetwoohsix]

Regarding the Piedmont Plank with the grade......since the other 3 are handcut is it of the assumption that this one was handcut as well and trimmed to the "factory cut" dimensions? I ask this because it is a legit card. I haven't formed a 100% opinion (on the cut) for the same reason as some others....have never seen it in person. It's hard for me to believe SGC would miss the trimming of such a notorious card- let alone the others as well- and risk damaging a great reputation in the hobby-deliberately or nefariously. This is why I want to believe SGC graded them as such.

I understand the way we come to our conclusions with T206, fact mixed with theory, but I also believe it could've been possible that X amount of sheets with P-150's with Plank on them could've been factory cut. We really don't know. Our opinions are mainly based on the other 3 P-150 Planks.

So, just trying to understand- does everyone who questions this card think it was handcut like the other 3 and trimmed to factory cut dimensions?

Sincerely, Clayton

[steve B]

I saved a scan from the auction.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=6504

The back writing does specify SC and philadelphia area and not philadelphia area. And I also think this could have some bearing on the Plank cards.

Since the piece is a partial page it isn't 100% certain that the cards were T206s, but it does show that during that period they were packing 1 per box of 10 for some areas, and 2 per box of 10 for philadelphia. The notation below is for military cards, so it's a sound idea that the top notes refer to T206s.

Another thing to note is that the packing priod for other than philadelphia territory was nearly a month, and the packing for philadelphia territory was only about 10 days.

Also the packing log fragment is from factory 649, which also separates it from Plank distribution.

I'm not convinced the card in question is handcut, but Teds theory does make some sense.

Steve B

Ted my friend,
That sounds like a lot of conjecture. Seems to me the evidence is that 25% of the Piedmont Planks are factory cuts. Do you have a scan of the ALC shipping documents you mention?
JimB

[CMIZ5290]

So much for all the speculations and concerns about cards being handcut or trimmed.....it looks like they are off and running in good fashion.

[Leon]

So much for all the speculations and concerns about cards being handcut or trimmed.....it looks like they are off and running in good fashion.

Less than 3 hours after opening the Wags is at about 750k after juice and the Plank is at about 125k after juice. Nice start with 3 weeks to go......

[frankbmd]

Corners have been scrambled and rotated. :D

[dstraate]

So much for all the speculations and concerns about cards being handcut or trimmed.....it looks like they are off and running in good fashion.

I wonder whether or not all of this discussion helps or hurts the final price actualized on these cards. No press is bad press.

[ullmandds]

I'm guessing this discussion will have zero impact on the final hammer price of these cards.


I wonder whether or not all of this discussion helps or hurts the final price actualized on these cards. No press is bad press.

[Leon]

Corners have been scrambled and rotated. :D

I pick the blurry one :).

[tedzan]

We are entering a new day here with this Plank scenario. I can foresee the possibility of a new "MILLION DOLLAR T206"......by the
time all is said and done with this PIEDMONT Plank.

After all....it has all the attributes of the Gretzky Wagner......

Due to their anti-tobacco reasons, these Pennsylvanians....Wagner, Plank (and/or Connie Mack) forced ATC to remove their image
from the T206 set.

The highest numeric graded PIEDMONT cards of Wagner and Plank are "questionable".


WHATEVER, unlike the PSA 8 Wagner, though, this Plank has no provenance (at least, not yet).


TED Z

[Runscott]

...

After all....it has all the attributes of the Gretzky Wagner......

Due to their anti-tobacco reasons, these Pennsylvanians....Wagner, Plank (and/or Connie Mack) forced ATC to remove their image
from the T206 set.

The highest numeric graded PIEDMONT cards of Wagner and Plank are "questionable".


WHATEVER, unlike the PSA 8 Wagner, though, this Plank has no provenance (at least, not yet).


TED Z

Ted, there is a HUGE difference between the two cards. The Plank appears to SGC, to be factory-cut. The Wagner provenance you mention indicates that it was hand-cut. All of the PSA 8 Wagner owners have had to pretend like the emperor was wearing a new suit. The new Plank owners will simply have to believe what appears to be honest grading (at least to me).

[frankbmd]

I pick the blurry one :).

Correct. You win the scissors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What "provenance" suggests the Wagner 8 is hand cut aside from the Piedmont back?

[ullmandds]

I think the fact that there are images out there of the wagner before it was cut to it's current size and shape is all of the proof that is needed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pete, as I recall the before photos were pretty grainy and inconclusive, but in any event they at best would prove that the card was trimmed, right? They wouldn't speak to whether the original was an oversize card from a pack, or one from a sheet. Let me ask it a different way, how do we know that the Conlon Plank is from the same sheet as the Gretzky Wagner, I have heard that mentioned a couple of times now but don't know the background.

[ullmandds]

I believe the Gretzky wagner...and the current p 150 plank were from the same sheet originally.

[Runscott]

Pete, as I recall the before photos were pretty grainy and inconclusive, but in any event they at best would prove that the card was trimmed, right? They wouldn't speak to whether the original was an oversize card from a pack, or one from a sheet.

We know this from statements by those involved. This is no longer a secret. There is a lot of good information about this subject in 'The Card'.

Let me ask it a different way, how do we know that the Conlon Plank is from the same sheet as the Gretzky Wagner, I have heard that mentioned a couple of times now but don't know the background.

I'm also curious about this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill Hughes said PSA knew it was trimmed, but who can vouch for his credibility? Bill Mastro has steadfastly denied it.

[theuclakid]

Ted, although your presentation of the evidence for the theory that the Plank could not possibly have a factory cut Piedmont 150 factory back is intriguing, a jury probably could never attain a unanimous vote as to its authenticity....there is no conclusive proof, yet.....thus I still side with the grading company as they have seen the card in hand.....SGC are the experts or as close as there is, correct? SGC GAVE THEIR OPINION....I also suspect most people who could afford a million dollars or more for a card are perfectly happy with the encapsulated card as is....as they are trusting the known provenance, authenticating and encapsulating process...there is no FINAL word yet on the Plank mystery, no matter how interesting or convincing....and I do agree with others that this card could sell for a big number.....Bruce Perry

[tedzan]

We know this from statements by those involved. This is no longer a secret. There is a lot of good information about this subject in 'The Card'.



I'm also curious about this.


As one of a number of characters who were there in 1985 when Bill Mastro was shopping around the Gretzky Wagner (raw) in the George Washington Motor Lodge rooms
at Willow Grove, PA....I clearly recall that a PIEDMONT 150 Plank was spoken of as being part of the collection that Bill had acquired in Long Island, NY.

That day Bill was "touting" the Wagner, it was the talk of the Show that weekend. I saw the Wagner, I did not see the Plank. However, the secondary story was that a
"high grade" PIEDMONT Plank was included in this collection. And, the rumor circulating at the Willow Grove Show that weekend was that both Wagner and Plank were originally from the same (partial) sheet.

For many years, I wondered where that Plank went. Charlie Conlon and I did some great deals over the years at Willow Grove. We shared a lot of info regarding vintage
cards, but he never mentioned this Plank. When Charlie passed away in recent years, we found out that he had acquired the PIEDMONT Plank (Wagner's sheet-mate) in
a private deal with Bill back in the mid-1980's.

Hey guys, does a BB card "provenance" get any better than this ?


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have read lots about Alan Ray selling the Wagner to Mastro (through a Long Island card shop) but have never read that Alan Ray also had a Plank that he sold simultaneously. EDIT TO ADD If that's the case, that was quite a purchase by Mastro.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted, although your presentation of the evidence for the theory that the Plank could not possibly have a factory cut Piedmont 150 factory back is intriguing, a jury probably could never attain a unanimous vote as to its authenticity....there is no conclusive proof, yet.....thus I still side with the grading company as they have seen the card in hand.....SGC are the experts or as close as there is, correct? SGC GAVE THEIR OPINION....I also suspect most people who could afford a million dollars or more for a card are perfectly happy with the encapsulated card as is....as they are trusting the known provenance, authenticating and encapsulating process...there is no FINAL word yet on the Plank mystery, no matter how interesting or convincing....and I do agree with others that this card could sell for a big number.....Bruce Perry

Bruce, just curious, do you apply this same reasoning to the Gretzky Wagner, which after all was seen in hand by PSA prior to grading it an 8?

[E93]

THe version of the story I have heard is that circulating around the show was word of a mint Wagner at a shop and Bill jumped on it, left the show, and went and bought the Wagner and other cards that were part of the group. I believe Lifson went along and loaned him some $ to facilitate the deal. If the card was already being touted as mint before Bill Mastro saw it, then if it did come from a sheet, it was presumably cut up before that. Whatever happened to Alan Ray? Apparently he was pissed when he found out how much Bill sold it for. It would good to get his version of things.
JimB

[tedzan]

I believe the Gretzky wagner...and the current p 150 plank were from the same sheet originally.

You have to be kidding....aren't you ? ?

Because, if you think the "current PIEDMONT 150 Plank" is the Wagner sheet-mate that Charlie Conlon acquired from Bill Mastro back in the mid-1980's......
that was graded (circa 2009) by PSA as AUTHENTIC....and now SGC has given it a numerical grade....then we have real trouble right here in River City.


TED Z

[theuclakid]

Peter, I suppose I would unless there is irrefutable evidence.....again what good are the grading companies then if everyone cant trust them to get the AUTHENTICATION correct? Most of us can give an accurate grade seeing a card raw in hand....it is the authentication that is key...and when a big spender buys a card at that level, then they have (should) to be trusting the authentication aspect...or they are not very wise....Bruce Perry

[theuclakid]

There is always going to be some well to do buyer out there who will buy these kind of top shelf cards, just to have, just to have bragging rights...they may not even be collectors or hobbyists.....and all the hoopla over the questionable authenticity of any of them, if they are even informed, is just speculation and hearsay to them....of course unless the authenticity can be disproven in a formal court of law.....it is just someone's opinion and nothing more to these buyers that just have to have the card....the cards are in holders.....authenticated....and stuck in a safe somewhere...Bruce Perry...oops sorry about the typo...GOODWIN Plank

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter, I suppose I would unless there is irrefutable evidence.....again what good are the grading companies then if everyone cant trust them to get the AUTHENTICATION correct?

Bruce that is indeed the question but I am not sure of the answer, at least in all cases. Even if one assumes competence -- which is a big assumption -- certainly a cynic/skeptic could find financial incentives to give a card a numerical grade even if deserves an authentic. And once the card is encased, nobody can ever conclusively prove that they were wrong, as we have seen with the Wagner.

[HRBAKER]

Bruce that is indeed the question but I am not sure of the answer, at least in all cases. Even if one assumes competence -- which is a big assumption -- certainly a cynic/skeptic could find financial incentives to give a card a numerical grade even if deserves an authentic. And once the card is encased, nobody can ever conclusively prove that they were wrong, as we have seen with the Wagner.

And once you reach the kind of money we are talking about here a healthy dose of skepticism in all matters is warranted IMO, particularly when an outlier shows up.
One the other hand, there has to be a first of anything.

[ullmandds]

Ted...I thought I had heard that...I have no evidence whatsoever.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted...I thought I had heard that...I have no evidence whatsoever.

Not the same card, the markings are different, for one thing.
http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=12350

[olrac44]

Who has the PSA 8 T-206 Plank? What back does that card have?

[E93]

Bruce,
What an astute observation. I bet this is an accurate description of virtually all T206 Plank owners. They are probably all just dumb guys with too much money and big egos, but certainly not real collectors.
JimB

There is always going to be some well to do buyer out there who will buy these kind of top shelf cards, just to have, just to have bragging rights...they may not even be collectors or hobbyists.....and all the hoopla over the questionable authenticity of any of them, if they are even informed, is just speculation and hearsay to them....of course unless the authenticity can be disproven in a formal court of law.....it is just someone's opinion and nothing more to these buyers that just have to have the card....the cards are in holders.....authenticated....and stuck in a safe somewhere...Bruce Perry...oops sorry about the typo...GOODWIN Plank

[g_vezina_c55]

i think if SGC grade it with a numerical grade and said it is a machine cut card, it is for me the real thing.... i trust sgc at 100%.

thx

[Ronnie73]

I always wonder what PSA and SGC guidelines are when it come's to non factory cut cards. I've seen and own W512 strip cards that grade both ways and wonder who makes the decision on the grade being numerical or just authentic. Same thing for 1952 Wheaties that I collect. All hand cut but I have many PSA 8's. Then theres the 1984 Topps Nestle Sheets. Always numerically graded. I guess if a card was only issued in sheet form, a numerical grade is allowed but W512 grades, I will never understand. As far as the Plank, I feel SGC saw no evidence of trimming and since all Piedmont backed Planks being trimmed is just a theory (one that I believe), the card received the numerical grade. I guess the bottom line is, if you had the chance to own the card at no cost to you, would the grade on the holder even matter? Numerical grade or not, it's a really nice card.

[ethicsprof]

Tongue in cheek methinks.
Yes....

all the best,
barry

[steve B]

In my limited experience with just T206s they're fairly strict. I've had 2 rejected for numerical grading,(out of 16) but without evidence of trimming. One called miscut that had a fairly rough top and bottom edges the other factory but undersize.

On the other stuff I think it depends on how the cards were issued and how they're cut, if all of the border is there It gets a number if not then A.
I view all of these as trimmed, and don't see much point in grading them unless it's a full strip or box. Maybe someday we'll see a slab big enough for an entire Nestles sheet.

Steve B

I always wonder what PSA and SGC guidelines are when it come's to non factory cut cards. I've seen and own W512 strip cards that grade both ways and wonder who makes the decision on the grade being numerical or just authentic. Same thing for 1952 Wheaties that I collect. All hand cut but I have many PSA 8's. Then theres the 1984 Topps Nestle Sheets. Always numerically graded. I guess if a card was only issued in sheet form, a numerical grade is allowed but W512 grades, I will never understand. As far as the Plank, I feel SGC saw no evidence of trimming and since all Piedmont backed Planks being trimmed is just a theory (one that I believe), the card received the numerical grade. I guess the bottom line is, if you had the chance to own the card at no cost to you, would the grade on the holder even matter? Numerical grade or not, it's a really nice card.

[tedzan]

Ted, although your presentation of the evidence for the theory that the Plank could not possibly have a factory cut Piedmont 150 factory back is intriguing, a jury probably could never attain a unanimous vote as to its authenticity....there is no conclusive proof, yet.....thus I still side with the grading company as they have seen the card in hand.....SGC are the experts or as close as there is, correct? SGC GAVE THEIR OPINION....I also suspect most people who could afford a million dollars or more for a card are perfectly happy with the encapsulated card as is....as they are trusting the known provenance, authenticating and encapsulating process...there is no FINAL word yet on the Plank mystery, no matter how interesting or convincing....and I do agree with others that this card could sell for a big number.....Bruce Perry


Hi Bruce

Sure, my hypothesis here (post #1) is based on the points that I stated in my presentation, which I think are pertinent. But, by no means am I trying to convince "a jury ".
Simply, my intent here is to stir up some thought-provoking discussion; and, hear some varying opinions regarding this new Plank card.

Anyhow, am I recalling correctly, but weren't you at Willow Grove in 1985 when Bill Mastro was shopping around the (Gretzky) Wagner ? If so, did you get a close look at
this card in its RAW form, as did a number of the collectors/dealers at the show ? ?

Many of us there who saw it that weekend thought it was not Factory-cut. However, PSA gave it a numeric grade. I guess...."PSA GAVE THEIR OPINION".

Subsequently, PSA graded Charlie Conlin's PIEDMONT Plank..AUTHENTIC. Don't you find this very contradictory; since, this Plank was the Gretzky Wagner's sheet-mate ?
This turns out to be an unacceptable example of arbitrary grading by a TPG....what is your opinion of this situation ?

Finally, although I favor SGC, by no means are they infallible. They have been wrong in the grading of a number of T206's in the past 12 years.


TED Z