Could PSA really authentic this ball?

[shelly]

I was reading some of these threads and then went to look at Heritage and found this auction.
It is an auction, not one of those previews.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=151215&lotNo=41052

Just look at that Mantle, look at Williams, Banks, killebrew,,,
This looks to me like it is the work of Greg Marino.
It has a pre cert from PSA.
Anybody else want to tell me what they think of this ball?

[travrosty]

its not a preview, so it must have the pre-certification.

they will claim that it hasnt been looked at yet, but we have been assured that only happens to 'preview' lots, things have are not for sale and never will make it to sale.

so they have some explaining to do, but i believe they will just thumb their nose at any concerns that they are offering up live items with these pre-certifications that may or may not be real.

to me, if it says psa precertification, then it has it. Otherwise are we to guess if it has it yet or not on live items open for bidding and that have received bids?

they play games and then blame the people who are asking the questions when they have promised they don't do this on items up for bid, just 'preview' lots.

does Heritage care to set this issue straight once and for all?

To allow bidding on something and then claim that the pre-certification is on this item prematurely but they are taking peoples bids is not cool behavior and I hope that is not truly the case but I fear it is. But how is the casual collector who sees it for the first time suppose to know if they haven't followed these developments over the past few weeks and months and know nothing of the auction houses practices of doing this?

they would really think it has psa pre-certification. maybe it does? It says so, and it is open for bidding.

[shelly]

This ball has a bid on it.

[travrosty]

It does, and I don't see that disclaimer from Heritage like they put on the preview items that says that authentication has not been finalized, etc.

So what's the deal, heritage?

I can't place a bid, because they cancelled my account for raising these questions.

I also think PSA should weigh in on this too.

[Exhibitman]

What does "precertification" mean in this context? How is that different than a full LOA? Is it the same as an "auction LOA" that is handed out in some auctions?

[travrosty]

What does "precertification" mean in this context? How is that different than a full LOA? Is it the same as an "auction LOA" that is handed out in some auctions?



psa doesnt do auction loa's anymore, jsa still does,

they claimed an auction loa is a preliminary review and didnt get the full inspection that a full loa item does.

now psa switched its terminology to pre-certification, and they state that the item WILL get a full loa if submitted to them, guaranteed. so evidently they inspected the item fully like they do for the full loa items, only nobody can figure out how their full inspection process for this pre-certification differs from their process they used for an auction loa and even a bid auction house couldn't tell us when we asked. They didn't say "I don't know" but jsut went about in platitudes and circular logic hoping we would get tired and quit asking.

[Vintagedegu]

-

[Big Dave]

Heritage must read this site every day. Two lots that were total bs, or is that ps, were withdraw after the more knowledgeable people on this site informed the public and Heritage, that they are peddling garbage, and PSA/DNA is certifying garbage.

Heritage should just have their items vetted here. It would be more accurate, and they wouldn't have to keep withdrawing these PSA/DNA certified garbage lots.

Hey Heritage, .......come on downnnnnnn!

[RichardSimon]

That's two balls into the cornfield today.

[travrosty]

They want the collecting public to do their job for them, and the authentication company's job, they should be embarassed, and these items will keep getting pointed out until they stop doing this.

Like someone says, these items are like a whac-a-mole, you point one out and another one pops up.

Richard, you will never get your account back, it would require an admission on their part, and then don't think they are doing anything wrong.

so did psa give these two items a pre-certification or not? They said they did.

[Leon]

I need to preface this by stating the obvious that Heritage is an advertiser here and I do consider most of their Sports group to be good hobby friends. Actually, several I would consider very good hobby friends, Chris Ivy included.

Now that being said I can honestly say that I feel Chris and Heritage are as honest as the day is long. There is 0 doubt in my mind they will stand behind whatever they do. With thousands and thousands of items auctioned each year they are bound to make a few mistakes. I am sure those few mistakes are handled professionally and swiftly. I believe some Heritage guys probably do read this board every day, along with several thousand other people. If something is pointed out on the board I am sure they usually look into it. Chris is a smart guy and I would expect no less. I can't say I agree with Chris on every single thing but I would trust him and his company 100%. He has some of the best hobbyists in the industry on staff too. If two baseballs got pulled then I think that is a good thing, if they were iffy or outright not good. Heritage Auctions is a great company and I am proud to have them as a sponsor/advertiser on the site. I look forward to bidding in their future auctions.

[travrosty]

Then why don't they explain what is going on? This isn't a mistake, they know what they are doing. These weekly internet auctions have these 'precerts when there are not precerts' being listed constantly, then they take bids and mysteriously some of the auctions disappear, maybe when psa actually gets around to looking at the items. The bids are cancelled.

How would you like to bid on something that says PSA precertification and then POOF! Your bid is cancelled because they decided they might want to get around to authenticating it now.

I CAN'T bid in their future auctions, and neither can Richard because we have the gall to point out this glaring problem that they can't fix or explain what is going on?

How did these two items that were allowed to take bids get precerts from PSA?

We saw the same live-bid-items with auction loa's previously, namely an operation bullpen Muhammad Ali glove, and two operation bullpen Muhammad Ali autographed Ali/Chamberlain posters, plus I have seen numerous others, a horrible Manny Pacquiao glove, along with some other boxing items, they had JSA auction LOA's, or did they?

If they knew they were listing precerts or auction LOA's for live items and taking bids 7 MONTHS AGO when I pointed them out, and they are still doing it, would they care to explain why - when all they have said in the past is that it was a preview item that was not for sale and would never see a live sale so no big deal?

These items are getting bids, and they say precertification from PSA/DNA. Is that the truth or not? How about PSA explaining if they think it's okay that their precertification is listed with these items?

I don't get why there are sacred cows that can't be questioned without the person bringing it up being the bad guy, bidding account cancelled, suspended and banned?

It's important that Chris Ivy explain why he said that preview items that weren't receiving bids were the only items that had this designation of auction loa or precerts when it is clear that items up for bid seem to have this same affliction. Why can't he admit it that items up for bid have this same problem?

Would admitting it be the same as saying that the article on deadspin was hitiing too close to home, that they offer items up for bid with this same designation of precerts when there really isn't precerts.

All the collectors want is answers. We have none.

[RichardSimon]

wrong forum - I was working in the buy-sell-trade forum and posted a FS item here.

[travrosty]

I know of at least 5 people who had their accounts suspended over this.

So why is that so if it is heritage's mistake?

I saw on another thread over in the card forum, that some members thought that an auction house shouldnt have it's other entity bid on cards on its own auctions, and the owner agreed, and said they wouldn't do that anymore,

But i never heard of people getting their bidding accounts suspended for bringing it up.

Why the payback? 7 months ago I asked them why they put up these auction loa's and precerts before the authentication companies looked at the items, and they told me to mind my own business, that it was no big deal.

Then they had 7 months to fix the problem, and they didn't, because they didn't believe it was a problem, until the publicity got too big, and it blew up in their faces.

All of the sudden they are acting like this is some new problem they hadn't heard of before, and please bear with us as the IT guys need time to write up a computer program.

Well, Mr. Ivy, you had 7 months. Isn't that long enough to write up this monster code of a program that must rival NASA's launch codes in complexity evidently?

They have two guys there that are in the authentication business. One guy is on the staff at JSA. He can't browse an internet auction over once in a while and pick out a few items that everyone here seems to be able to see a mile away? If they didn't put PSA precertification or JSA auction LOA, then it wouldn't be as egregious, it would just make them look foolish to throw up an item like that that they would just pull down later.

But to put up precertification or auction LOA designations when it doesn't have one is saying something that isn't so. People bidding need to be able to trust the auction house that their descriptions and authentication designations are true, and not some product of convenience because a computer program seems to be beyond their financial or technological reach.

[thekingofclout]

Then why don't they explain what is going on? This isn't a mistake, they know what they are doing. These weekly internet auctions have these 'precerts when there are not precerts' being listed constantly, then they take bids and mysteriously some of the auctions disappear, maybe when psa actually gets around to looking at the items. The bids are cancelled.

How would you like to bid on something that says PSA precertification and then POOF! Your bid is cancelled because they decided they might want to get around to authenticating it now.

I CAN'T bid in their future auctions, and neither can Richard because we have the gall to point out this glaring problem that they can't fix or explain what is going on?

How did these two items that were allowed to take bids get precerts from PSA?

We saw the same live-bid-items with auction loa's previously, namely an operation bullpen Muhammad Ali glove, and two operation bullpen Muhammad Ali autographed Ali/Chamberlain posters, plus I have seen numerous others, a horrible Manny Pacquiao glove, along with some other boxing items, they had JSA auction LOA's, or did they?

If they knew they were listing precerts or auction LOA's for live items and taking bids 7 MONTHS AGO when I pointed them out, and they are still doing it, would they care to explain why - when all they have said in the past is that it was a preview item that was not for sale and would never see a live sale so no big deal?

These items are getting bids, and they say precertification from PSA/DNA. Is that the truth or not? How about PSA explaining if they think it's okay that their precertification is listed with these items?

I don't get why there are sacred cows that can't be questioned without the person bringing it up being the bad guy, bidding account cancelled, suspended and banned?

It's important that Chris Ivy explain why he said that preview items that weren't receiving bids were the only items that had this designation of auction loa or precerts when it is clear that items up for bid seem to have this same affliction. Why can't he admit it that items up for bid have this same problem?

Would admitting it be the same as saying that the article on deadspin was hitiing too close to home, that they offer items up for bid with this same designation of precerts when there really isn't precerts.

All the collectors want is answers. We have none.

I've worked for a California Casino for 25 years now and I can't tell you how many times I've had irate customers acussing us of cheating them out of their $120 as "it's impossible to lose six hands in a row!" I always ask the question "why would a company that does a few hundred million a year in business cheat you out of $120?"

Heritage Auctions did over $700 MILLION last year! Does anyone really think that they would knowingly try and scam ANY of their customers out of a $100 baseball? Or even a $10,000 Baseball for that matter! SEVEN HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS.

It seems to me that they may have a problem with the employee/s that heads their internet sports auctions. But to continue to bash them over and over again has gotten very, very, old.

I've never bid in a Heritage auction nor have I met any of their employees, but I would believe what Leon says of Chris Ivy and Heritage... "There is 0 doubt in my mind they will stand behind whatever they do."

[travrosty]

they knew about this problem for over 7 months and did nothing.

They don't think it is a problem, and THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

who cares how much they sell? so if they sell a lot they can get away with it?
that's not an excuse.

my whole point all this time is that it is wrong for them to do that. they don't think it is wrong. You must not think it is wrong to say something that isn't so. but i do.

If it is wrong, then fix it.

because they did so much in sales, that is precisely the point, they think anybody that brings something up like this is small potatoes so lets just ignore it. only when it hit haulsofshame and deadspin and was tagged by usa today did it get big enough for this 700 million dollar company to take notice and decide they might want to do something about it?

It's real hard to get huge companies to respond to legitimate concerns, for just that reason. they think they are too big to fail, so when i initially brought it up, you should have seen the condescending email i got. basically telling me i know nothing about how auction houses work and i should just go away.

I might not know how big auction houses work, but i know how they should work.

i will let heritage respond now. i am sure their defense for this practice is forthcoming.

it's not just preview items, its item taking live bids. why is that hard to understand that it isn't right to put an authentication tag on an item if it doesnt have it yet?

this isnt a new problem that is a simple mistake. They knew about it for months and did nothing.

[thekingofclout]

who cares how much they sell? so if they sell a lot they can get away with it?


Get away with what?

Well, my issue was not to point out how much money they make, but to point how much they would risk losing if they were in the business of defrauding people for a few hundred dollars.

Now, I'm not naive at all about corporate greed in America, and we all know that there are examples of filthy rich companies in every field committing fraud, especially in Wall Street, but I just don't believe this is the case here.

Nor do I believe that the motives of the accusers in these types of threads, are to save the collecting public from the greedy big auction houses and/or TPA's. In my opinion, their motives are self-serving, and I for one, am insulted with their non-stop barrage of propaganda and exaggerated analaogies. Jimmy Catanzaro

[GrayGhost]

Well, this seems to be more prevalent lately. You can not mislead people , who apparently would think they are getting genuine items, with this pre certification poop. This is especially true of "naive bidders" who see those PSA o JSA letters and without totally understanding this "Pre cert " Concept, think they are going to bid on something real.

This is just another problem it seems w this part of the Hobby. Pretty discouraging, Id say..

Scott Roberts

[RichardSimon]

I've worked for a California Casino for 25 years now and I can't tell you how many times I've had irate customers acussing us of cheating them out of their $120 as "it's impossible to lose six hands in a row!" I always ask the question "why would a company that does a few hundred million a year in business cheat you out of $120?"

Heritage Auctions did over $700 MILLION last year! Does anyone really think that they would knowingly try and scam ANY of their customers out of a $100 baseball? Or even a $10,000 Baseball for that matter! SEVEN HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS.

It seems to me that they may have a problem with the employee/s that heads their internet sports auctions. But to continue to bash them over and over again has gotten very, very, old.

I've never bid in a Heritage auction nor have I met any of their employees, but I would believe what Leon says of Chris Ivy and Heritage... "There is 0 doubt in my mind they will stand behind whatever they do."

Just to clarify a bit here,, assuming they did do $700 million, that is the entire company, not the sports memorabilia division. And that figure is probably the gross total sales of all their auctions, not their auction cut, not their net. Am I right King?
And I have never bid in a Heritage auction either and apparently will never be able to now.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Get away with what?

Well, my issue was not to point out how much money they make, but to point how much they would risk losing if they were in the business of defrauding people for a few hundred dollars.

Now, I'm not naive at all about corporate greed in America, and we all know that there are examples of filthy rich companies in every field committing fraud, especially in Wall Street, but I just don't believe this is the case here.

Nor do I believe that the motives of the accusers in these types of threads, are to save the collecting public from the greedy big auction houses and/or TPA's. In my opinion, their motives are self-serving, and I for one, am insulted with their non-stop barrage of propaganda and exaggerated analaogies. Jimmy Catanzaro

I agree with you, Jimmy. I, too, do not believe "That the motives of the accusers in these types of threads, are to save the collecting public from the greedy big auction houses and/or TPA's."

If Travis really cared about the "collecting public," why didn't we hear his outcry about a auction house owner who outed the high bidder of a Walter Johnson signed photo in an attempt to convince everyone that the Walter Johnson signed photo that the auction owner certed was authentic. When someone questioned the authenticity of that Walter Johnson signed photo, the auction owner publicly informed everyone who the high bidder was to convince everyone that the Walter Johnson signed photo was authentic. And even though the website where the auction owner outed the high bidder is now as dead as Julius Caesar (the website went the way of AutographAlert), I saved the screenshots of those comments written by the auction owner.

Where was your criticism of that auction owner when he did that, Travis?

[Leon]

Just to clarify a bit here,, assuming they did do $700 million, that is the entire company, not the sports memorabilia division. And that figure is probably the gross total sales of all their auctions, not their auction cut, not their net. Am I right King?
And I have never bid in a Heritage auction either and apparently will never be able to now.


The 700 million is the gross sales for the whole company. My guess is their take would be 25%-30% of that. Heritage is the very least of our problems in the hobby. I am not saying not to "out" issues with ANY situation. I am in agreement, though the constant rhetoric towards them gets old. How about going after some of the bad guys? If you are an autograph collector and want new people coming into the hobby then this side of the board is failing miserably. I can almost assure everyone that anyone reading all of these comments about autographs are LESS likely than more likely to start collecting them. So for that, we all thank the folks who constantly point all the bad stuff because you are saving us from the inevitable headaches. At least on the card side there is a lot of good stuff too.

[perezfan]

The 700 million is the gross sales for the whole company. My guess is their take would be 25%-30% of that. Heritage is the very least of our problems in the hobby. I am not saying not to "out" issues with ANY situation. I am in agreement, though the constant rhetoric towards them gets old. How about going after some of the bad guys? If you are an autograph collector and want new people coming into the hobby then this side of the board is failing miserably. I can almost assure everyone that anyone reading all of these comments about autographs are LESS likely than more likely to start collecting them. So for that, we all thank the folks who constantly point all the bad stuff because you are saving us from the inevitable headaches. At least on the card side there is a lot of good stuff too.

Amen to that... these consant accusers are doing more harm than good for the hobby. As Jimmy pointed out, their motives are completely self-serving as opposed to altruistic. Going after the people who get it right 95% of the time does not provide a good long-term prognosis for our hobby. The hobby will fizzle and die if potential new collectors are driven away by these scare tactics.

There will inevitably be a few mistakes made. The examples rhetorically pointed out in this forum represent less than one tenth of 1% of the material that's been authenticated by the reputable outfits. Instead of dwelling on minutia, why not look at the bigger picture and focus on eliminating the real corruption within the autograph business?

[thetruthisoutthere]

The 700 million is the gross sales for the whole company. My guess is their take would be 25%-30% of that. Heritage is the very least of our problems in the hobby. I am not saying not to "out" issues with ANY situation. I am in agreement, though the constant rhetoric towards them gets old. How about going after some of the bad guys? If you are an autograph collector and want new people coming into the hobby then this side of the board is failing miserably. I can almost assure everyone that anyone reading all of these comments about autographs are LESS likely than more likely to start collecting them. So for that, we all thank the folks who constantly point all the bad stuff because you are saving us from the inevitable headaches. At least on the card side there is a lot of good stuff too.

Very well written, Leon.

You see, Leon, bashing PSA/JSA, HA, etc., is fashionable. If someone wants to criticize PSA, JSA, HA, etc., that is their right here. But according to Travis the dollars spent on autographs certed by Morales, Taylor and Max are irrelevant; they don't count.

From what I understand the two items in question were removed. Did anyone consider that maybe PSA rejected those items and HA just got around to removing them? Two items out of how many auctions?

Geez, I haven't seen Coach's Corner (Lee Trythall & Scott Malack) removing any auction listing that was questioned. But, of course, they would be out of business if all of the bad auctions were removed.

Maybe Travis can explain why Todd Mueller was informed that the below Derek Jeter signed photograph was a forgery and that he never removed it. It sold for $66.00. The amount of the winning bid is not the issue here. The issue here is that it was not removed.

60074

[thekingofclout]

In regards to any collectors who have been barred from auction houses after bad-mouthing them on public forums... Just what don't you get about that? Really? Freedom of Speech? You got it. As Leon states; "put your name to it and you can say just about anything you want to." But your Freedom of Speech at Net54 does NOT make you exempt from an auction house's decision to exclude you from participating in their auctions.

When players at the casino in which I work, start accusing the casino/dealer of cheating, we bar them... immediately! I get the same "Freedom of Speech"
crap from them as well. I answer "Your Right. No problem. Go to a public park and say what ever the Hell you want about us. But this is private property and you are not going rip us and scream "CHEATERS" in our own house... SECURITY"

[travrosty]

its because they havent fixed the problem, they knew about it for a long long time, and still havent fixed it.

to only go after the 'bad guys' is ridiculous, because who is bad, who is good? do we have to limit our discussion to convicted criminals so no one can question that we are going after some bad?

Instead of that, I go after BAD PROBLEMS with the hobby, whether the entity responsible is good or bad, or in the middle.

If people don't like it that we had to show stuff a dozen times about this one auction house, well, then you can blame the auction house for that, because they had ample, time, opportunity to fix the problem, and they chose to wait it out, they thought we would get tired and it would blow over.

It took numerous, numerous mentions to get them to do anything. i am sick of posting heritage's autographs that look funky and have a precert or auction loa with them also, but in order to get results and reform, what would i do instead??????????

sending them a private email discussing my concerns not only got me nowhere, but i was told to go away. I tried to do it quietly so no one could know and it wouldnt be a big deal, but they would have none of that.

As far as the positive side of the hobby, i think getting heritage to stop this practice of precerts and auction loa's where there is none is a monumental POSITIVE thing for the hobby. Or is it a negative thing? why would it be a negative thing if they started practicing truth in advertising? we demand it everywhere else.

All i have ever done is stuck to the facts with heritage. if they are friends of someone and people don't like it, i am sorry, then there should just be a list of who we can and who we can't criticize when we see something going on in the hobby that we feel is wrong.

If they had corrected the problem, what could I post about them. I agree, if I continue posting about a problem that was corrected, that would be overkill, but it continues to go on, doesn't it?

Is there anybody on this board that thinks what heritage is doing with advertising precerts and auction loa's when the company hasn't looked at the items yet with these preview and live items is NOT wrong? anyone? I would just like to know.

and if people agree that this practice isn't kosher, why go after the people that bring it up? It's hard enough to put yourself out there open to the slings and arrows that inevitable come your way when you stick your neck out and point out a huge auction house and I am what, one little person. It's intimidating enough.

That's why a lot of people never come forward, and some of these things continue to go on for a long time. People are afraid and don't want to get involved.

i never said heritage is ripping people off. but what they are doing IS a problem.


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=147699&highlight=house+cards

Read this thread from beginning to end. Many card buyers saw what they perceived to be a problem, and the auction house defended their actions a few times, but it was only after a dozen people continously posted over and over again, over 14 pages worth on a 20 page post, before the auction house said they will not do it that way anymore.

I didn't see anyone say "just go after the bad guys."
why is that?

Why let Huggins and Scott squirm (they are good people too!) but defend Heritage and to basically say 'let's move on'?

Gosh I am going to get in trouble for thinking out loud again.

[Leon]

Travis- As I said, no problem talking about any company or any person on this forum as long as your name is out here (and it is). There is NO issue with that. I do think a lot of what you are doing is good. I think Heritage, from what they said on this board publicly, is reviewing their policies in this area. I think you should be commended for that. This board has been responsible for some change in the hobby and that is not a bad thing. Total transparency is a good thing. I would politely suggest that you KEEP up the good fight while at the same time sharing some of the GOOD in your hobby too. If you spew a lot of negativity/fraud then it is only fair to also spew the good news too. Just throw us a crumb every now and then :)..

[RichardSimon]

In regards to any collectors who have been barred from auction houses after bad-mouthing them on public forums... Just what don't you get about that? Really? Freedom of Speech? You got it. As Leon states; "put your name to it and you can say just about anything you want to." But your Freedom of Speech at Net54 does NOT make you exempt from an auction house's decision to exclude you from participating in their auctions.

When players at the casino in which I work, start accusing the casino/dealer of cheating, we bar them... immediately! I get the same "Freedom of Speech"
crap from them as well. I answer "Your Right. No problem. Go to a public park and say what ever the Hell you want about us. But this is private property and you are not going rip us and scream "CHEATERS" in our own house... SECURITY"

I think pointing out an error in a public forum is not the same as bad mouthing them. Errors were pointed out and people were barred as a follow up. If they did not make errors then nothing would have been pointed out. But they did make errors and they grudgingly acknowledged those errors by removing the items.

[baseballart]

As Jimmy pointed out, their motives are completely self-serving as opposed to altruistic.

As someone who doesn't buy autographs, I'm only posting this out of my own ignorance and curiosity. A number of times in various threads it has been said the posters' motives are self-serving but no one explains why their motives are self-serving. I may be incredibly dense on this, but how are their motives self-serving?

Thanks

Max

[thecatspajamas]

Heritage is the very least of our problems in the hobby. I am not saying not to "out" issues with ANY situation. I am in agreement, though the constant rhetoric towards them gets old. How about going after some of the bad guys? If you are an autograph collector and want new people coming into the hobby then this side of the board is failing miserably. I can almost assure everyone that anyone reading all of these comments about autographs are LESS likely than more likely to start collecting them. So for that, we all thank the folks who constantly point all the bad stuff because you are saving us from the inevitable headaches. At least on the card side there is a lot of good stuff too.

Amen.

And might I also add that there are still such things as good old honest mistakes (I make them all the time). Making another mistake later, even if it is the same mistake, is not necessarily indicative of a conspiracy or a refusal to correct the issue. (I type "teh" instead of "the" all the time, and will continue to do so, not because I'm a willfully bad typist, but because I'm clumsy). In cases like these, where a mistake is made, pointed out, and corrected/removed, what harm is done?

And just because a public apology was not made for the mistake does not make it a conspiracy, nor does the lack of a personal "thank you" for pointing out the mistake. It's nice to be thanked, and maybe even expected among gentlemen, but not required. The lack of a thank-you may be indicitave of one's character or how the mistake was pointed out, but certainly is not wholesale license to mount an attack campaign on the supposed offender. It is possible to point out mistakes without demanding that the whole establishment be razed.

[Vintagedegu]

/

[David Atkatz]

I type "teh" instead of "the" all the time, and will continue to do so, not because I'm a willfully bad typist, but because I'm clumsy.But do you put yourself forward as "the world's best typist," and claim that any typed material is virtually worthless unless it's submitted to you for re-typing?

I thought not.

[perezfan]

As someone who doesn't buy autographs, I'm only posting this out of my own ignorance and curiosity. A number of times in various threads it has been said the posters' motives are self-serving but no one explains why their motives are self-serving. I may be incredibly dense on this, but how are their motives self-serving?

Thanks

Max

Self-serving, because they have a vendetta against the respected/established authentication companies. Each of these posts furthers their ultimate mission (which is to bring down the 2 big authentication companies).

Virtually every post these individuals make contains the same exact message. You can predict in advance of reading the post, that they will be bashing PSA or Spence (and not one of the criminally-intent forgery outfits). You can predict the subject matter and person's stance, simply by seeing the name of the poster. The content of the posts has become redundant and almost irrelevant. Not sure about the origin for these hostilities, but I assume it's because PSA and/or Spence rejected their highly prized / high-valued items at some point.

[travrosty]

But we don't these type of protests against someone who only posts coaches corner or morales items. Why?

Isn't that self serving also?

Maybe the people who don't like psa or jsa items shown are those with a lot of psa or jsa certs and don't want those certs to become worthless.

The other side of the coin is just as interesting, but only one side gets criticized for focusing ONLY on one group. the other side is free to go after only one group all day long. Probably because nobody here owns any coaches corner/morales items and they don't have anything to lose.

Whenever a coaches corner or morales thread opens up, i never see protests. I take it you don't feel the same way about our friend chris williams when he mentions morales, coaches corner and others but NEVER psa or jsa. why isn't he guilty of the same transgressions? Why don't you take him to task.

I don't take him to task for it because he is free to post what he wants, but so am I, and the notion that for every one psa or jsa I must show one of something else is absurd.

When I see a CC or Morales thread, I don't protest, it's fine if someone wants to criticize coaches corner or morales, but mention psa or jsa in a thread, then hell breaks loose and it's called bashing.

There are sacred cows and for good reasons I guess, too much money at stake. I don't anything tied up into any certs from any side. I am the impartial third party.

I have never made a cent authenticating and I have no certs (stock) to rise or fall based on the performance of any authentication company.

Again, why is it self serving, how have i served myself when I have made nothing off of it?

it is just that you like psa and jsa and you don't like people showing their mistakes. that's all it is. so shoot the messenger.

[David Atkatz]

Not sure about the origin for these hostilities, but I assume it's because PSA and/or Spence rejected their highly prized / high-valued items at some point.Hmmm...
Perhaps it's because PSA and/or Spence authenticated their actually forged, now worthless items at some point.

[perezfan]

Can't blame you for being pissed off at them... I would be too. Regarding the '27 Yankee Ball, I believe that the Spence LOA was executed pretty much during his "infancy period" (when he was still a one-man show). Is that right? I dont think there's much chance it would have passed, knowing what they know today. Apparently (and unfortunately) it fooled a lot of smart people at the time...

To Travis' point, the CC threads also get monotonous, and there have been numerous valid complaints about their frequency and redundancy.

The reason that there is more of a backlash against attacking the "Big Two" is (IMO) two-fold...

1. They get it right well over 90% of the time. Their mistakes are typically honest mistakes. Granted, there may be some dumb ones and brain-lapses, but there is not the criminal intent (which cannot be said for the "other guys").

2. To go after the honest faction of authenticators hurts the hobby long-term. If new collectors are shying away from this endless negativity, the autograph collecting world will shrink and fizzle. Not good for any of the parties reading this...

Yes- they do make mistakes. It's the nature of those mistakes that differentiates the two.

[travrosty]

We went over this 100 times, the two things are not the same, not related in any way.

you don't like it if i am critical of psa and jsa, but so what?

[perezfan]

We went over this 100 times, the two things are not the same, not related in any way.

you don't like it if i am critical of psa and jsa, but so what?

Back to the original point Leon made, which initially compelled me to chime in... It's bad press for the hobby, it drives away new collectors, and it jeopardizes its future.

You obviously have some valid points, but beating it to death (and publicizing only their errors) is skewing people's perceptions + casting a negative light on an otherwise great hobby.

This is a no-win situation... nobody's opinion is going to change, so I'm done with this pointless bickering. You are quite astute, and I really liked the thread you started about where to hold the National Convention. How about more threads like that (and other varied topics?)

[shelly]

I think that the one point that everyone is missing is that Heritage should not be allowed to post pre certed items if they are not looked at by PSA or even their own staff. I know and so do the rest of you on this site that if that ball had been looked at by anyone with a half a brain they would know it was a forgery.
Why would you sell a ball to someone who then sends it in to get authenticated only to find out that they have spent $75 on a piece of garbage. Will Heritage refund the money for the full authentication? People here have wondered why Heritage would do something like this. They do $700,000,000 in business. Well that is the 24 dollar question. Why would you hurt your reputation for so little money.There is no way this makes any sense for Heritage. Yet they have been doing it for a long time. It is time for this to stop. Leon, you can help make this happen. No one on here is saying Heritage is a bad company. What they are saying is they are making a bad mistake by doing this. This also goes for PSA. You just don't hand out certs without looking at what the item is. Those who post these bad pieces are not hurting the hobby they are trying to protect it.

[travrosty]

I think that the one point that everyone is missing is that Heritage should not be allowed to post pre certed items if they are not looked at by PSA or even their own staff. I know and so do the rest of you on this site that if that ball had been looked at by anyone with a half a brain they would know it was a forgery.
Why would you sell a ball to someone who then sends it in to get authenticated only to find out that they have spent $75 on a piece of garbage. Will Heritage refund the money for the full authentication? People here have wondered why Heritage would do something like this. They do $700,000,000 in business. Well that is the 24 dollar question. Why would you hurt your reputation for so little money.There is no way this makes any sense for Heritage. Yet they have been doing it for a long time. It is time for this to stop. Leon, you can help make this happen. No one on here is saying Heritage is a bad company. What they are saying is they are making a bad mistake by doing this. This also goes for PSA. You just don't hand out certs without looking at what the item is. Those who post these bad pieces are not hurting the hobby they are trying to protect it.



amen,

just trying to help the whole hobby which includes the buyers as well as the sellers.

[Big Dave]

+1