The Irony Of The Autograph Posts On This Forum

[slidekellyslide]

I pretty much assume that every autograph is bad now. The only autos that are good are ones you got in person, and as soon as you die or sell them they will be bad too.

I think the irony is that the people who start these threads all have some skin in the game and they are pushing people away from autograph collecting.

Are there any non-autograph collectors here who have thought about pursuing that hobby, but have now completely changed their mind? I know that I've toyed in the past with trying to collect all former Red Sox player autos, but I wouldn't even dare think about it now.

[carrigansghost]

In all honesty. all of my auto's are going to auction in the very near future, please bid well in the auction and pay no attention to these silly stories.

Rawn

[D. Bergin]

I am starting to somewhat get the impression that some of these players who did dozens, if not hundreds of show and personal signings, somehow have very few legitimate autographs on the market anymore.

:confused:

[Scott Garner]

All this white noise about fake autographs is not changing my passion for collecting the signature of every pitcher that ever threw a no-hitter, FWIW.

Most of the remaining signatures that I am still seeking are so far off the grid that I'm not personally worried about it. I continue to rely on buying from the creme of the crop as far as vintage autograph dealers go. ;)

[perezfan]

It's caused some concern in this community, but many/most autograph collectors are still not clued into Net54 (and are thus unaware of these posts).

The rebel-rousers here have not influenced me at all. I am comfortable and familiar enough with what to look for, from the subjects I collect. I do agree however, that these people (who are heavily invested in autographs) are not doing themselves any favors by casting aspersions in every direction imaginable. Especially when targeting the parties who are honest, and get it right the vast majority of the time.

[springpin]

Dan has raised a sobering point. I don't collect autographs, but when the book "The Glory of Their Times" came out in the 1960s, I went to NYC for a book signing by Lefty O'Doul, Chief Meyers (Mathewson's catcher), Rube Marquardt, and one other old player. The book sits on my shelf 45 years after I got the autographs, but I can't provide any "proof" they are legitimate. There is no photograph of me with the players, and even if there were, it doesn't prove they signed the book. There is no photograph of them signing a book, and even if there were, it wouldn't prove it was my book. Meyers inscribed his autograph, "To Paul," but that is not proof he actually signed it. Furthermore, most of the autographs are from a shakey hand, undoubtedly different than exemplars from their youth. In short, since I can't even provide proof of the authenticity of the autographs that were signed for my personal benefit, how could I put any faith in the authenticity of other autographs?

[batsballsbases]

It's caused some concern in this community, but many/most autograph collectors are still not clued into Net54 (and are thus unaware of these posts).

The rebel-rousers here have not influenced me at all. I am comfortable and familiar enough with what to look for, from the subjects I collect. I do agree however, that these people (who are heavily invested in autographs) are not doing themselves any favors by casting aspersions in every direction imaginable. Especially when targeting the parties who are honest, and get it right the vast majority of the time.

Mark,
Im hurt Im a rebel-rouser!:D:D And Damn proud of it!;);)

[thetruthisoutthere]

I pretty much assume that every autograph is bad now. The only autos that are good are ones you got in person, and as soon as you die or sell them they will be bad too.

I think the irony is that the people who start these threads all have some skin in the game and they are pushing people away from autograph collecting.

Are there any non-autograph collectors here who have thought about pursuing that hobby, but have now completely changed their mind? I know that I've toyed in the past with trying to collect all former Red Sox player autos, but I wouldn't even dare think about it now.

Hi Dan. If you feel that my post here is out of line, please feel free to remove it and no hard feelings. I will try to keep this as short as possible.

I can tell you for a fact, Dan, that "I have absolutely no skin in the game." I do not own a website and I am not a major seller. I am a hobbyist.

I do what I do (whether on video or on a platform like this) because I care, and because I care, I have deep disdain for people like Chris Morales, Ted Taylor and Drew Max. One has the title of "Forensic Investigator" and another one calls himself a FDE (Forensic Document Examiner)." And the other one (Ted Taylor), before he started "Stat Authentic," had to decide between being an authenticator or owning a hotdog stand.

Two years ago, out of the blue, tens of thousands of forgeries of Mantle, DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Muhammad Ali, Willie Mays, etc., flooded the market, all with COAs from yet another "forensic" person called Nicholas Burczyk (who never examined any sports autographs in the 1990's).

And how can we forget the GAI debacle and the Mike Baker signed GAI certs.

How can any hobbyist not be angered by what has happened to the hobby when it comes these "forensic authenticators" and the GAI mess.

Why is it difficult to believe that someone can just care about the hobby without having a vested interest? How can a true hobbyist not want to be vocal about the hobby that they claim they love and enjoy?

Unfortunately, what has happened, has probably pushed new autograph collectors away from the hobby. And that's really sad because the more collectors there are, the more activity there is in the hobby and it spurs competition, which is a good thing for the hobby.

There are a ton of authentic autographs for the active collector. Learn what you want to collect. Research what you want to collect and enjoy it for the short time we have on this earth.

And, Dan, I do what I do because I care.

[Scott Garner]

Hi Dan. If you feel that my post here is out of line, please feel free to remove it and no hard feelings. I will try to keep this as short as possible.

I can tell you for a fact, Dan, that "I have absolutely no skin in the game." I do not own a website and I am not a major seller. I am a hobbyist.

I do what I do (whether on video or on a platform like this) because I care, and because I care, I have deep disdain for people like Chris Morales, Ted Taylor and Drew Max. One has the title of "Forensic Investigator" and another one calls himself a FDE (Forensic Document Examiner)." And the other one (Ted Taylor), before he started "Stat Authentic," had to decide between being an authenticator or owning a hotdog stand.

Two years ago, out of the blue, tens of thousands of forgeries of Mantle, DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Muhammad Ali, Willie Mays, etc., flooded the market, all with COAs from yet another "forensic" person called Nicholas Burczyk (who never examined any sports autographs in the 1990's).

And how can we forget the GAI debacle and the Mike Baker signed GAI certs.

How can any hobbyist not be angered by what has happened to the hobby when it comes these "forensic authenticators" and the GAI mess.

Why is it difficult to believe that someone can just care about the hobby without having a vested interest? How can a true hobbyist not want to be vocal about the hobby that they claim they love and enjoy?

Unfortunately, what has happened, has probably pushed new autograph collectors away from the hobby. And that's really sad because the more collectors there are, the more activity there is in the hobby and it spurs competition, which is a good thing for the hobby.

There are a ton of authentic autographs for the active collector. Learn what you want to collect. Research what you want to collect and enjoy it for the short time we have on this earth.

And, Dan, I do what I do because I care.

Well said, Chris. :)

[GrayGhost]

Hi Dan. If you feel that my post here is out of line, please feel free to remove it and no hard feelings. I will try to keep this as short as possible.

I can tell you for a fact, Dan, that "I have absolutely no skin in the game." I do not own a website and I am not a major seller. I am a hobbyist.

I do what I do (whether on video or on a platform like this) because I care, and because I care, I have deep disdain for people like Chris Morales, Ted Taylor and Drew Max. One has the title of "Forensic Investigator" and another one calls himself a FDE (Forensic Document Examiner)." And the other one (Ted Taylor), before he started "Stat Authentic," had to decide between being an authenticator or owning a hotdog stand.

Two years ago, out of the blue, tens of thousands of forgeries of Mantle, DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Muhammad Ali, Willie Mays, etc., flooded the market, all with COAs from yet another "forensic" person called Nicholas Burczyk (who never examined any sports autographs in the 1990's).

And how can we forget the GAI debacle and the Mike Baker signed GAI certs.

How can any hobbyist not be angered by what has happened to the hobby when it comes these "forensic authenticators" and the GAI mess.

Why is it difficult to believe that someone can just care about the hobby without having a vested interest? How can a true hobbyist not want to be vocal about the hobby that they claim they love and enjoy?

Unfortunately, what has happened, has probably pushed new autograph collectors away from the hobby. And that's really sad because the more collectors there are, the more activity there is in the hobby and it spurs competition, which is a good thing for the hobby.

There are a ton of authentic autographs for the active collector. Learn what you want to collect. Research what you want to collect and enjoy it for the short time we have on this earth.

And, Dan, I do what I do because I care.

+1:)

[HexsHeroes]

All this white noise about fake autographs is not changing my passion for collecting the signature of every pitcher that ever threw a no-hitter, FWIW.

Most of the remaining signatures that I am still seeking are so far off the grid that I'm not personally worried about it. I continue to rely on buying from the creme of the crop as far as vintage autograph dealers go. ;)

+1

My situation too. As I've said before, it's a very good collecting year for me if I can locate and purchase just one of the obscure autographs on my want list. It's a great year if I can cross off two names. I don't think 99.9% of the autograph forgers out there would give a damn about trying to create and sell a John (Jack) Peters autograph. Aside from a few Detroit Tigers and possibly Kansas City Blues autograph collectors, the market is damn thin for such an autograph, and therefore, the payoff limited. There are easier and much larger payoffs to be had for about the same amount of effort.

[Runscott]

Are there any non-autograph collectors here who have thought about pursuing that hobby, but have now completely changed their mind? I know that I've toyed in the past with trying to collect all former Red Sox player autos, but I wouldn't even dare think about it now.

I think this forum and all the autograph threads has actually caused the opposite for me, but with qualifications. I wanted to pick up autographs of some of my favorite vintage players, but these threads convinced me that signed balls and cuts were not to be trusted - especially a bummer given that three signatures I was looking for (Ruth, Gehrig, Mathewson) were three that not only can't be trusted, but forgeries are getting authenticated right and left.

The positive thing was that the forgery debacle led me to look into what COULD be trusted, which led to handwritten letters - now I'm enjoying collecting something that I would never have considered before. And these items display very well with vintage photographs.

[HexsHeroes]

. . . where, unless slabbed by a (still) respected third party,
all raw items will also be viewed as "bad".

The reproduction and printing technologies already exist, as do paper stocks, and a thriving, hungry marketplace. Add a small, 5-digit investment in a legit library of authentic "common" HOFer cards to reproduce, and the potential score is appealing at $150 - $2000 a pop. Prices similar to commonly forged autographed flats. And I'm not talking about the commercially produced copies (crap) out there now. I mean beautifully exact reproductions of authentic cards, right down (very close) to the shades of color, cut sizes, corner/edge wear, and surface marks.

I see that day coming. Not necessarily today, or tomorrow. But definately, someday. The technology keeps getting better, and prices more approachable.

[slidekellyslide]

Hi Dan. If you feel that my post here is out of line, please feel free to remove it and no hard feelings. I will try to keep this as short as possible.



Chris, no hard feelings at all, and I would never remove someone's post when they were just expressing their opinion..especially in such a respectful manner. I should clarify by what I mean by "Skin in the game"...that to me includes hobbyists too. You have a vested interest in the hobby as a collector.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Chris, no hard feelings at all, and I would never remove someone's post when they were just expressing their opinion..especially in such a respectful manner. I should clarify by what I mean by "Skin in the game"...that to me includes hobbyists too. You have a vested interest in the hobby as a collector.

Thank you, Dan. And as a hobbyist, yes I do have vested interest. In that context, you are absolutely correct.

[sox1903wschamp]

In all honesty. all of my auto's are going to auction in the very near future, please bid well in the auction and pay no attention to these silly stories.

Rawn

Hi Rawn,

I don't collect Auto's but if your's come to market, I'll pay attention :).

[prewarsports]

I have said this before and taken a beating on it but I still stand behind it. If you know what you are doing and are careful, autograph collecting is safer than card collecting. With autographs if you stick with the top dealers/sellers or collect vintage signed album pages still in the books and checks or contracts you are going to be safe 99%++ of the time. You cant say any of that with cards. Trim jobs, restoration, Chemicals used to remove old glues on cards in album pages are so rampant that the top dealers sell this stuff without knowing it all day every day, especially high grade. It all comes down to being smart and educating yourself. Buying a cheap Mantle autograph on ebay is no differnet than buying a "grandaps attic" baseball card. Just my opinion but I have been in the autograph game for a long time now and problems basically dont exist in what I deal with and those people who buy and sell similar items as me.

Rhys Yeakley

[drc]

There are some fine autograph experts on this board, but 1/3 of the the stuff said in those autographs threads is crap, a waste of time to read. Any poster who has an obvious agenda that shapes all his posts and points should be read with a grain of salt the size of San Jose. Some people can find merit in propaganda, but I do not.

[thekingofclout]

There are some fine autograph experts on this board, but 1/3 of the the stuff said in those autographs threads is crap and obfuscation, a waste of time to read. Any poster who has an obvious agenda that shapes all his posts and points should be read with a grain of salt the size of San Jose. I find no merit in propaganda.

like

[thecatspajamas]

There are some fine autograph experts on this board, but 1/3 of the the stuff said in those autographs threads is crap and obfuscation, a waste of time to read. Any poster who has an obvious agenda that shapes all his posts and points should be read with a grain of salt the size of San Jose. I find no merit in propaganda posts.

+1

If the aforementioned posters would stick to why this or that auto is bad, I think current and potential future collectors would benefit much more than from knowing which authenticator the poster thinks sucks.

[drc]

Authentication is an objective activity. Any poster who is driven by a subjective agenda, predetermined conclusions or a clear bias is the antithesis of the person should be lecturing others on authentication.

[thekingofclout]

Authentication is an objective activity. Any poster who is driven by a subjective agenda, predetermined conclusions or a clear bias is the antithesis of the person should be lecturing others on authentication.

Once again, well said David. And if anyone is wondering about David's background regarding Authentication, here is his quick bio...

David Rudd Cycleback is an art historian and forensic scientist specializing in the areas of authenticity and cognition. He is the photography advisor for Beckett Media, has advised and examined artifacts for major auction houses and was a writer for the Encyclopedia of Nineteenth-Century Photography, the standard academic reference. His books include Judging the Authenticity of Photographs, Judging the Authenticity of Prints by the Masters, Forensic Light: A Beginner's Guide and Conceits: Human Cognition and Perception. He has been cited by the Australian National Archives, Indiana Historical Society, York University, Encyclopedia Britanica, University of Wisconsin (The Scout Project), Maine Antiques Digest, PBS, University of Arkansas' Criminal Justice Institute, Bloomberg and Sydney University (Business of Art).

[Bilko G]

I personally think all these autograph posts are great!!


I think most of the autograph collectors that have been around a few years or longer already know about "this side" of the hobby.

As far as the new collectors or people "thinking about getting into collecting autographs" these posts offer them great knowledge and let them know about the forgery's and to do their homework, nothing wrong with that.

These "posts" aren't unique to Net54 either. Other sports collectible boards all have very similar posts (and just as many if not more) and the message boards that are just for autograph collecting have 10 times as many "posts" about the "dark side" of autograph collecting as Net54.

For the people that don't like posts about autographs (or posts from certain people), there is nothing making them click on these posts and reading them, they can simply skip over them since 99% of them can be figured out from the title. Autograph collecting is a HUGE part of the Sports collectibles market and i believe the posts about autographs deserve to be here, just as much as the posts about bat collecting, jersey collecting, cards, photos, etc.

As someone who is very interested in autographs and has been seriously collecting autographs for the last 20-25 years these type of threads actually keep me coming back to Net 54 every single day.

[Mr. Zipper]

I have said this before and taken a beating on it but I still stand behind it. If you know what you are doing and are careful, autograph collecting is safer than card collecting. With autographs if you stick with the top dealers/sellers or collect vintage signed album pages still in the books and checks or contracts you are going to be safe 99%++ of the time...

I agree. Autograph collecting can be very rewarding, fun and safe the vast majority of the time. For those of us -- I'm including myself in this category -- who collect the typical Mantle, Williams, DiMaggio, Koufax type material, with a little homework, networking and common sense you can avoid fakes.

When you wade into the deep end of the pool with super rare and expensive material, the risks increase exponentially. There are master forgers who can fool even the experts on occasion. But, this would be the case with any high end collectible where big bucks come into play.

[thekingofclout]

I agree. Autograph collecting can be very rewarding, fun and safe the vast majority of the time. For those of us -- I'm including myself in this category -- who collect the typical Mantle, Williams, DiMaggio, Koufax type material, with a little homework, networking and common sense you can avoid fakes.

When you wade into the deep end of the pool with super rare and expensive material, the risks increase exponentially. There are master forgers who can fool even the experts on occasion. But, this would be the case with any high end collectible where big bucks come into play.

like

[RichardSimon]

Speaking from personal experience I can say that I do feel the autograph market is not attracting new collectors.
Years ago, it would be easy to sell the $10-$50 Hall of Fame autographs, often selling many at one time and it became obvious that I was dealing with a relatively new collector. The buyers of Coveleski, Dickey, Appling, Averill, Chandler, Doerr, Gehringer, etc. are now few and far between.
I still successfully sell quite a bit of material but rarely see the type of buyer that I saw 5-10 years ago.
I think the negative publicity (not necessarily here on 54) that has been in newspapers and TV reports has definitely hurt the hobby.
In addition the casual collector, who may become a serious collector, might have been burned on his first purchase. He might have wondered into one of those mall stores, estate sales, etc. and been fooled by a fancy and serious looking COA and that person is then lost to the hobby, if he discovers what he has bought.
I will repeat what I have said many times before, stay with the dealers that have established reputations as being honest and knowledgable and don't assume that because an item has an alphabet company COA that it is necessarily authentic. That fact has already been proven here many times from lower level items bought on ebay to multi thousand dollar items bought from big time auction houses.

[Mr. Zipper]

Speaking from personal experience I can say that I do feel the autograph market is not attracting new collectors.
Years ago, it would be easy to sell the $10-$50 Hall of Fame autographs, often selling many at one time and it became obvious that I was dealing with a relatively new collector. The buyers of Coveleski, Dickey, Appling, Averill, Chandler, Doerr, Gehringer, etc. are now few and far between.
I still successfully sell quite a bit of material but rarely see the type of buyer that I saw 5-10 years ago.

I can't help think the changing dynamics of the hobby may be at work here. 15 - 20 years ago vintage dealers were not competing for collector dollars with high priced Steiners, etc., etc. The modern players of that era were typically not signing for big bucks. Now, when a collector blows his entire budget on a Steiner Jeter, nothing is left over for the vintage material.

Just a thought...

[chaddurbin]

i am definitely scared, but i try to do my homework whether it be a honus wagner or a $2 steve avery signature...and i pass on stuff pretty quick if i'm uncomfortable with it.

having said all that i don't see myself buying a high end auto like ruth mathewson etc no matter how many loas it comes with...and that's directly because of this board.

[Runscott]

i am definitely scared, but i try to do my homework whether it be a honus wagner or a $2 steve avery signature...and i pass on stuff pretty quick if i'm uncomfortable with it.

having said all that i don't see myself buying a high end auto like ruth mathewson etc no matter how many loas it comes with...and that's directly because of this board.

There are ways of getting authentic ones and not having to really consider LOA's or making sure you buy from the forum-approved shortlist (sentence one of your post).

[packs]

I have two high-end autographs in my collection, a Roberto Clemente signed baseball and a Grover Cleveland Alexander signed baseball. I was very confident in the authenticity of each, though only after receiving the items and viewing them in person. Each came with a story about how they were obtained, like so many fakes. I consider myself lucky on these purchases and am wary to purchase more high-end signatures. JSA doesn't give me the same comfort it used to. Though I'm not sure anything will.

[baseballart]

As for the threads souring me on autographs? I only look for autographs in books (my main area of collection), and for me, I much prefer the book to be signed by the author, rather than the subject ballplayer.

In this regard, I don't think too many forgers are interested in replicating Fred Lieb's or Frank Graham's autographs.

That said, after all these threads, if I found a Mickey Mantle signature in a book in any avenue, I don't think I'd pay above the value for the book alone. My mind goes dizzy trying to see which Mickey is fake and which isn't.

Max

[Bilko G]

I can't help think the changing dynamics of the hobby may be at work here. 15 - 20 years ago vintage dealers were not competing for collector dollars with high priced Steiners, etc., etc. The modern players of that era were typically not signing for big bucks. Now, when a collector blows his entire budget on a Steiner Jeter, nothing is left over for the vintage material.

Just a thought...



yeah that is definitely a possibility and also a lot of the "new" autograph collectors, guys in their early 20s or early 30's are buying the more modern players that they grew up watching and the players that they are watching today. There is also a whole different area of autograph collectors that don't really care about sports at all and they are more into Entertainment/Celebrity/Music Etc. autographs.