Legendary Boxing Prices

[wondo]

OMG! Stuff has dropped more than I ever imagined! A card I sold for $5k a couple of years ago to a dealer (and then was resold) went for $2400 (E78 Johnson).

I picked up the Stevengraph Silks set for about half of what they sold for in a 2006 auction. Great time to buy.

What did any body else get?

[Exhibitman]

There has definitely been a retrenching in the market since the recession and the sales of the Dreier cards will show us all how much. I was surprised to see marquee type cards selling for half of their pre-recession highs, but pleased that the floor seems to have stabilized and that there has been a rebound in interest since the lowest point [by my analysis that was the fall of 2010, btw]. What's gonna be real interesting is to see where the Red Sun set sells. The last time one went it was over $50K cumulatively [Hull again], and lots of the Hull cards will be in the Dreier selloff.

So who won the E78 Johnson? $2K plus vig. As rare as it is and as high on the want lists of JJ collectors as it is I expected this card to top $4,000.

N269 Sullivan? $2,500 plus vig for the side view variation. Back in the Hull liquidation we had this result: 1887 N269 Lorillard's #17 John L. Sullivan, Three-Quarter Profile SGC 50 VG/EX $4,481.25

1889 N223 Kinney "Magic Changing Cards" John L. Sullivan SGC 40: $850 plus vig. In 2007 Mastro sold the same card same grade for $1,516.80. Ebay sales on this card recently--there have been a few--have been around this level, adjusted for grade.

I thought this one finished a bit low: N310 Mayo uncut trio @ $1200 plus vig. My recollection is that the last time this card sold it was over $1900 including the vig. And we're talking one of a kind item.

Also thought the Robertson Candy cards generally went for low. Back in the Hull sell-off they went for more: V153 Robertson Sugar Candy lot of 4 SGC 20 (2) and SGC 40 (2) $1,314.50 and lot of 3 SGC 40 $956.00.

Lots of others but I haven't had a chance to analyze and compare results yet.

[Leon]

My auction partner, Scott, and I have spoken about Boxing card prices recently. They seem to have gone the way of the lower grade caramel cards and baking cards. Now would be a great time to start collecting them.

[Exhibitman]

No, after the auction season ends would be a great time to start collecting them ;)

You are correct, my friend. Prices have dropped markedly even on premium items and it is a great time to pick them up and hold for medium term profits, if that's your bag. As for "simon-pure" collectors w/o any intent to profit, there is great stuff out there at relative discounts to past prices, so now is the time to fill out the collection. If/when the economy rebounds I expect that a lot of these cards will do the same. Of course, that presupposes that the cards show up for sale, which they really don't do very often when it comes to the good stuff; you kind of have to strike while the iron is hot. But that's always been the case with vintage stuff.

OK, found out who got the E78 Johnson but I won't out him/her.

[Jerry G]

I have always been a set builder type of collector. The T9 Turkey Red Boxers were always the Holy Grail for me. Two years ago I had five of them and came to the realization that I would never be able to justify completing the set. So, I sold the those five and went in a different direction. When I noticed that there was not a lot of bidding activity on the Legendary set I placed an intentionally low bid, just for sh*ts and grins. I watched it daily knowing that my bid would never hold up.

Son of a gun! It ended two notches below my max bid. Awesome! I hope I'm as happy when I actually receive the cards.

Here's another example of price fluctuation that was recently noticed. I completed the N28's back in the early '80's and recently decided to complete the N29's. It seems that the current A & G's are surprisingly similar in price to what I paid many years ago. I didn't know whether to cuss or celebrate!

This thread offers a good explanation of what's up. Thanks for the discussion.

[Exhibitman]

FWIW, my research indicates that the boxing market bottomed in the fall of 2010 and has been mildly rebounding since then. Still a very choppy, maddeningly unpredictable one. This series of auctions is going to set a benchmark like the Hull sales did before the crash.

[travrosty]

I am on the autograph side of the boxing collectibles hobby and the same goes for autographs, except a few very rare, high end autographs or very famous and desirable champions like Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Johnson, they haven't taken as big of a hit or some haven't even taken a hit at all.

otherwise for almost all other boxing autographs, prices have dipped down considerably from the high water mark of a few years ago.

There was a time when you couldn't get a simple Sonny Liston autograph for under 900 dollars, there was a buying spike and prices were going up. When the recession hit I saw a few Liston's going for 500 or 600 dollars, and one even went for about 375. Prices are still not back up to where they once were but probably will slowly rebound.

[oldjudge]

I picked up the Old Judge boxing lot of 13 in the Legendary auction. I only needed the Clow with the serpentine banner. The other cards are available either individually or as a group. If interested, please email me at oldjudge@gmail.com


Thanks---Jay

[novakjr]

What are the chances that the Boxing prices have dropped because of the MMA? Because of the MMA some people may be viewing Boxing as a dying sport, and are going away from boxing stuff...However, even if that eventually proves to be the case, I think ultimately Boxing and Wrestling(real) may become the vintage equivalent to the MMA collectors, and will rise again.

[Exhibitman]

I doubt that. The markets don't really overlap. Boxing cards nearly all predate the creation of MMA, so there is no ready substitute of one for the other. Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, etc., remain huge sellers, for example, and I don't see that changing due to MMA. If you get one bad-ass American heavyweight, watch how fast boxing shoots back into prominence.

[novakjr]

I agree, all it'll take is another top-notch American Heavyweight to revive the sport in terms of collectability.

I may be the only one who collects Wrestling(old real stuff) and Boxing together as fighting sports though...Perhaps my amateur wrestling background may be causing me to overrate the sport though, but then again as it currently sits(aside from the Olympics), MMA seems the next evolutionary step of that sport, in terms of professionalism. I'll concede that there will probably never be another sustainable "professional wrestling".

Boxing and MMA could possibly be capable of coexisting equally(long term) in regards to professional "fighting sports". I wouldn't discount it, but the popularity of MMA among youngsters nowadays, may lead to a lack of interest in boxing(as far as fighters) in the near future. At the same time, I see a rise in the interest in amateur wrestling among the youth because of the MMA. Currently, in the MMA, the boxing types seem to be the guys that couldn't make it boxing. Is there a chance that these roles could eventually reverse themselves to the point where the boxers become the ones who couldn't cut it in the MMA? Or have we already reached that point as Americans?

[travrosty]

MMA and boxing are two different animals and the collectors are different.

Most of the higher priced stuff in boxing is collected by old time collectors and I don't know any of these collectors who also collect MMA stuff or have abandoned boxing for MMA.

I have had people tell me that the average age of a boxing collector is over 50 years old. It might be true. Once they collect boxing, I don't think they are going to say, 'well, I am going to stop because I like this MMA'

Most older boxing collectors I know either don't care for MMA or like me, might watch a fight here or there if it is a big fight and it's on free tv but otherwise I couldn't really care less.

I just don't think they overlap. Only the younger guys who might have started to collect boxing, but instead are interested in MMA might affect the hobby, but that paradigm wouldn't be realized until several years from now as they mature and spend their bigger dollars on MMA instead of boxing. But that's off in the future. I just don't see it though. I don't see one taking away from the other.

Boxing in general is struggling for interest in most weight classes however, because there haven't been too many exciting fighters that are interesting except for the Pacman/Mayweather and boxers in those weight classes. Heavyweight division is lethargic but it only takes another tyson/holyfield/bowe/lennox lewis type rivalries and it would be on again. the Klitschko era will pass and someone needs to step up and make it exciting again. I don't know people who are pining for Klitschko stuff. But there are Tyson collectors out there as well as Ali/Foreman/Frazier obviously. But the last dozen years are a snoozer for the heavyweights as far as collecting goes.

[Exhibitman]

Well, yes and no. We tend to be too egocentric as fans. Boxing in the USA is suffering from lack of an American heavyweight and American superstar [Mayweather is the closest domestic product and he's not only an a-hole, he's a convicted child and woman beater, so he ain't gonna win any popularity contests], but is globally a giant brand. Just because we don't like the Klitschkos doesn't make them non-entities. They are superstars in Europe, routinely selling out sports arenas in Germany for their shows. Boxing is huge in Mexico and with Mexican-American fans. Put a great Mexican fighter into the ring in the southwest and you can sell out a football stadium, as Juan Manuel Marquez-Pacquiao showed. The English and Canadians also have fighters capable of selling out arenas. The Bute-Froch fight later this year in Nottingham is going to be a huge ticket and tv draw. Of course there's Pacquiao in the P.I., and Nonito Donaire looking to follow on. There are several world-class Asian fighters who pull huge numbers in Asia, like Chris John in Indonesia or the Japanese lower weight champs.

Now, as to what it means for cards, that is hard to say. I am hearing the same things about boxing cards as baseball cards--the collecting base is aging, new tech and amusements are taking over, etc. I have to wonder, though, why it hasn't spelled doom for coin collecting, stamp collecting, art collecting, antique collecting etc. New blood comes into the fan base and then migrates to the collecting field. The fight fan base is certainly not all over 50, and as they move from casual fans to more interested in the sport they will start collecting. Once there they aren't going to stop with the shiny crap, they're going to head to vintage cards.