Any Opinions on the Helmar cards on Ebay ?

[insidethewrapper]

These cards are not reprints, they are newly made and look like vintage cards. They look like old manufacturers cards, Goudey etc. I can only see confusion in the future when someone tries to sell these as "Vintage" cards. New collectors in the future will not know a "real" card from a "fake vintage looking " card.

[Leon]

Some of them are kind of cool and are bringing healthy prices...I like them though they wouldn't be for me in the way of collecting. I do see their attraction though.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Helmar-Brewing-Co-Cabinet-31-Shoeless-Joe-Jackson-1st-Time-Offered-/120848382956

http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-BIG-LEAGUE-hi-300-Joe-Louis-Brown-Bombers-First-Time-Offered-/120848566830




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[T206DK]

These cards are not reprints, they are newly made and look like vintage cards. They look like old manufacturers cards, Goudey etc. I can only see confusion in the future when someone tries to sell these as "Vintage" cards. New collectors in the future will not know a "real" card from a "fake vintage looking " card.

some of them are really nice, but his auctions are a massive Shill bidding party if you ever bother to check them out. I don't see how you can have bidders with hundreds of bids and they only seem to bid on this guys items. they rarely win anything, and the fact that the cards are only offfered " a few times a year" gives him the opportunity to alter and relist any cards won by his shill bidding buddies or other accounts he is using.
I'm a fan of the negro league cards and cuban baseball players he does...I just can't bring myself to bid on them anymore because of the shady bid history on most of his items. I've bought a few of the Helmar items from secondary sellers and get them for way cheaper than what he sells them for on his account.

The cards are not worth the exorbitant prices they sell for...it's the actual artwork used to make the cards that is worth something

[alanu]

I really like quite a few of them and have bid on them, but haven't won any.

[HRBAKER]

I've bought a few early on bf the prices started to spike.
I do know the newer ones are dated on back.
The quality is actually very good.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s172/hrbaker/BST/Nap.jpg

[sirraffles]

I don't see how you can have bidders with hundreds of bids and they only seem to bid on this guys items.
Hi, if you would kindly let me know which regular bidders you are referring to, I may well be able to have them contact you directly. Virtually every card brings action from a number of different bidders and every card over the last two years has sold. The Helmar items are the most actively bid card items on eBay because they are beautiful and relatively scarce compared to other cards. For example, there are probably 200 1933 Goudey cards on eBay at any one time per 1 of the Helmar version of that set. Regarding your idea that I use multiple eBay names, no, I have just the one.

I like the idea that you have purchased Helmar cards on the secondary market and would encourage that strongly!! Thanks, Charles

You can also call me directly at 248 882 0834. I don't bite.

[sirraffles]

I'm kind of proud of this new series, there will be 42 in the set. Thought you might enjoy a picture of the Ty Cobb.

http://helmarblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/12-02-261132.jpg?w=430

[packs]

How do you make them? Are there paintings of the cards or do you use a program like photoshop? They're really cool.

[Jay Wolt]

I think the Helmar cards are great.
They are fantasy pieces that are very collectible.
Here's the original artwork & finished product of the '33 Goudey'ish Eddie Plank.
Plank passed away in 1926

http://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/helmarplank.jpg

[sirraffles]

Thank you. We make original paintings, usually with opaque watercolors. Then the paintings are scanned and, in this case, the text and logos were added in photoshop. Normally the backs are done in photoshop or photopaint.

The original paintings for this series are 8.5" x 4.25", the same size as the eventual printed card. In this size we can make only 1 new painting a week. So, to do the 42 paintings that we have planned for this series, it will take nearly all year to do. 12 of the 42 are already done.

One collector commissioned all 42 paintings this time.

[forgerelli]

I really like the cards but I just can't bring myself to pay the prices they go for. Have you considered issuing a lower cost "reprint" set?

Scott F

[jcmtiger]

These are really nice looking cards. Not sure if I would buy, but good product.

I like 19th century.

Joe

[joeadcock]

Interesting cards.

Back to original question, some in future will buy them as vintage. If they retain their value, then probably be a good buy anyway.

[J.McMurry]

I'm confused(as usual). These are not the cards that have been given out with the beer pretzels,peanuts, chips for the past 10 years?

[T206DK]

I'm confused(as usual). These are not the cards that have been given out with the beer pretzels,peanuts, chips for the past 10 years?

no, they are the same pictures as those cards, but the ones on Ebay are "aged" by the seller or by whoever prints them for him. Someone told me they were made in India or China, so I figure it's only a matter of time before they are being sold more frequently and on a larger scale. I'm pretty sure flea marketers are already copying his Honus Wagner cabinet card also as I have seen it fpr sale multiple times at the huge flea market that is north of Cincinnati.

[obcbobd]

I really like the cards but I just can't bring myself to pay the prices they go for. Have you considered issuing a lower cost "reprint" set?

Scott F

+1

[DixieBaseball]

Love them ! I don't actively collect them, but do have a few pieces in my collection. They make a nice filler for a tough HOFer in your collection if you ever want to pay less. (For example : Turkey Stearnes)

[DixieBaseball]

I also like them because of the limited examples made. They will not overproduce anything, including this example :

[sirraffles]

@forgerelli: I'm glad that you like them but we definitely won't be making any reprints. For one, it would undermine the cards that we are already doing. Secondly, if you think about it the cards are not expensive at all. For example, consider our card #52 in the R319-Helmar series, Hall of Famer Wilbert Robinson. A collector could have cornered the market and purchased all six that have been available for only $125.

@joeadcock: Well, in the future they will be vintage, too. And I can't imagine that they won't hold value. Consider that no Helmar hand-made card will ever have a population of more than half that of the famous T206 Wagner.

@J.McMurray: Helmar did make cards that were included within bags of potato chips and caramel corn. Now we hand-make cards in very, very small numbers.

@T206dk: If you'd like real information instead of "someone said", then just ask. No, the cards are not made in sweatshops in some third world country. They are made here, on the same 12 color press that the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art uses to produce their high-end lithographs. One of our artists, Sanjay Verma, does live in India. He is the National Award Winner there and often represents the country for foreign traveling Exhibitions. He is one of the best in the world at what he does and I am honored to work with him. He is also a really good guy. As for your fantasy that you are "pretty sure" that arch fiends are copying our Wagner card and selling them by the dozen at "flea markets"... you are better than that! We do, by the way, keep hi-res scans of every single card that has been made.

@everyone else: Thanks for your interest, your comments and your compliments. I'll post another of our Boston Garter style cards in a couple weeks since you seem to enjoy them. thanks, Charles

[dabigyankeeman]

Some of the Helmar cards i have seen on Ebay are really very nice looking, and not being reprints i actually could be tempted to buy some Yankees, but not at the prices they are going for, no way. I cant believe how much money some people are willing to pay for these things.

[npa589]

I've watched these for a while now, and though I'll never buy them - it's brilliant business, and very creative. I respect the creativity, and just hope that sirraffles is being truthful when he says that he has only one account.I also hope there isn't a shill bidding party going on, since,technically, it may be other people within the business who could be bidding them up and getting the prices higher, and he could still say "he had only one account". If the items are being driven up with shillers, I hope the whole organization deteriorates. If not, I wish them continued success.

[danmckee]

I don't like it. I have asked the seller to date them. The other guy making the new art cards dates his.

I also think the ridiculous prices on some are due to shill bidding. Look at the bid history, the top 2 or 3 bidders on those ridiculous priced ones, bid with that seller 75% of the time or more.

[drc]

Having just looked at the cards, I have to say the cards are neat and creative. A modern copyright date on the back would be nice, but I like them.

[T206DK]

I don't like it. I have asked the seller to date them. The other guy making the new art cards dates his.

I also think the ridiculous prices on some are due to shill bidding. Look at the bid history, the top 2 or 3 bidders on those ridiculous priced ones, bid with that seller 75% of the time or more.

Yeah, I look at some of the bidders and scratch my head. They only bid on this guys cards ...they bid in small increments every day, they appear to bid on just about all his auctions, and they rarely win anything.
I'm going to try to win one of these cards and see if PSA will grade it. If they do I will post scans. I don't understand why he doesn't date them. I doubt it is an oversight.
I still think they will be produced some day in greater numbers than they are now. If they are being made in China or India it can be done very easily

[npa589]

Good points...

Strictly speaking about the product, I'm saying that it's very creative. I have more than suspected shill bidding, and that it doesn't pass the "gut" test for me - which is why I wouldn't pay a dollar for one. I do agree that dates should be put on them. To keep some kind of aged lore, they could write "21st Century Tobacco".

It smells like shilling, it really does. How often do these top 2 or 3 bidders actually "win" an item? If it's less than 50%, then, well, that's the giveaway. Why would the same "interested 3 collectors" compete with each other, battle it out for the cards, but all walk away with nothing?

Again, though, it can smell like it, but it might not be. If there is NO shilling occuring, I wish them continued success. If they are articificially driving up the prices, then I hope their business crumbles.



I don't like it. I have asked the seller to date them. The other guy making the new art cards dates his.

I also think the ridiculous prices on some are due to shill bidding. Look at the bid history, the top 2 or 3 bidders on those ridiculous priced ones, bid with that seller 75% of the time or more.

[drc]

I said I thought the cards themselves were neat, but clearly the winning price on the eBay Joe Jackson is ridiculous.

[sirraffles]

This is Charles from Helmar again. Thanks, guys, for the comments...both complimentary and skeptical. I encourage forthright discussion because I recognize that what Helmar does is a step away from your usual collecting. Whether or not you ever purchase a card, I would like the collecting community to be knowledgeable and comfortable with our art. This is a great hobby and I feel that we bring a little added dimension, a little added vibrancy to it. I would like collectors to consider Helmar a credit to the hobby, whether or not they choose to collect.

First the compliments (of course!): Thank you for the reviews! In addition to some nice comments here, you truly wouldn't believe some of the kind phone calls and emails that I receive. Obviously our art resonates with a certain portion of the market. I can't express how much the compliments mean to all of us and how grateful that we are for them.

More importantly, the skepticism: The main issue seems to be that some of you believe the auction prices realized are "too high". Because of this, you suspect shill bidding. I think that about sums it up. I'll respond to each of these concerns separately, starting with the shill bidding accusation by anonymous member T206DK:

1. Shill Bidding, you would have to agree, is a stupid recipe for long term success. In fact, it makes long term success impossible. You just can't have a viable, long term venture based upon a fraud, especially one as prone to suspicion as shill bidding. We don't engage in shill bidding for three reasons. First, it is immoral. Second, it would eventually doom the business and third, we don't need it.

Take the two R319-Helmar Joe Jacksons that sold this week, #205 for $96.54 and #81 for $89.88. The dollar amounts were pretty close. On the #205 there were six bidders in at $75 or more. On the #81 there were also six bidders in at $75 or more. Remarkably, between the two there were eleven different bidders and only one duplicate (he dropped out around $79 each time). With that many bidders, who needs to shill?

T206DK also states that there are some bidders that tend to bid on many different Helmar auctions. Of course...they collect Helmar! And if you want to buy a Helmar art card, where else are you regularly going to find them? I'm sorry, I just find that criticism not very well thought out.

I also wonder where all those phantom shill bidders are when cards go cheaply. And in every auction there are real bargains. This past week, for example, I can think of at least half a dozen cards that went for half or less than normal.

2. High Prices. An auction is the most democratic way to sell and I love using that venue. I have nothing at all to do with the price collectors pay, other than to set a minimum bid (usually a very modest $3.99).

I'm not quite sure what is meant when I read that Helmar auction prices are "too high". I mean, compared to what? There isn't anything exactly like a Helmar card when considered in its totality. If you auction two houses of the same size and in the same neighborhood, is the one with the highest auction price "too high"? No, not if you consider the houses in their totality.

Lastly, I suspect that some collectors think that we get these cards for "free". Our costs have little to do with the little square of cardboard and everything to do with the other costs needed to keep us in business. The cost of the art is foremost. I always lose money when I auction the original artwork. In fact, the prices realized on original art doesn't come close to getting us to even. I generally don't look to make a profit on any new card for the first full year.

I hope that this has been somewhat helpful in understanding more about our art cards. Again, I have enjoyed the conversation. Best, Charles

[T206DK]

This is Charles from Helmar again. Thanks, guys, for the comments...both complimentary and skeptical. I encourage forthright discussion because I recognize that what Helmar does is a step away from your usual collecting. Whether or not you ever purchase a card, I would like the collecting community to be knowledgeable and comfortable with our art. This is a great hobby and I feel that we bring a little added dimension, a little added vibrancy to it. I would like collectors to consider Helmar a credit to the hobby, whether or not they choose to collect.

First the compliments (of course!): Thank you for the reviews! In addition to some nice comments here, you truly wouldn't believe some of the kind phone calls and emails that I receive. Obviously our art resonates with a certain portion of the market. I can't express how much the compliments mean to all of us and how grateful that we are for them.

More importantly, the skepticism: The main issue seems to be that some of you believe the auction prices realized are "too high". Because of this, you suspect shill bidding. I think that about sums it up. I'll respond to each of these concerns separately, starting with the shill bidding accusation by anonymous member T206DK:

1. Shill Bidding, you would have to agree, is a stupid recipe for long term success. In fact, it makes long term success impossible. You just can't have a viable, long term venture based upon a fraud, especially one as prone to suspicion as shill bidding. We don't engage in shill bidding for three reasons. First, it is immoral. Second, it would eventually doom the business and third, we don't need it.

Take the two R319-Helmar Joe Jacksons that sold this week, #205 for $96.54 and #81 for $89.88. The dollar amounts were pretty close. On the #205 there were six bidders in at $75 or more. On the #81 there were also six bidders in at $75 or more. Remarkably, between the two there were eleven different bidders and only one duplicate (he dropped out around $79 each time). With that many bidders, who needs to shill?

T206DK also states that there are some bidders that tend to bid on many different Helmar auctions. Of course...they collect Helmar! And if you want to buy a Helmar art card, where else are you regularly going to find them? I'm sorry, I just find that criticism not very well thought out.

I also wonder where all those phantom shill bidders are when cards go cheaply. And in every auction there are real bargains. This past week, for example, I can think of at least half a dozen cards that went for half or less than normal.

2. High Prices. An auction is the most democratic way to sell and I love using that venue. I have nothing at all to do with the price collectors pay, other than to set a minimum bid (usually a very modest $3.99).

I'm not quite sure what is meant when I read that Helmar auction prices are "too high". I mean, compared to what? There isn't anything exactly like a Helmar card when considered in its totality. If you auction two houses of the same size and in the same neighborhood, is the one with the highest auction price "too high"? No, not if you consider the houses in their totality.

Lastly, I suspect that some collectors think that we get these cards for "free". Our costs have little to do with the little square of cardboard and everything to do with the other costs needed to keep us in business. The cost of the art is foremost. I always lose money when I auction the original artwork. In fact, the prices realized on original art doesn't come close to getting us to even. I generally don't look to make a profit on any new card for the first full year.

I hope that this has been somewhat helpful in understanding more about our art cards. Again, I have enjoyed the conversation. Best, Charles

Charles , I am hardly anonymous on this board. I am curious as to where the artwork for your cards is produced ? United States, India, Taiwan, China ? how do you know the phone numbers of your best bidders ? I have been selling on Ebay since it's creation and don't know the phone numbers of any of my bidders. I am biding on several of your cards right now Cgharles, if I try to submit them to ebay as Helmar art cards 2012 wil they grade them ??

[sirraffles]

Well, if you don't use your name you are anonymous. I understand, sometimes people would rather say things without having it reflect poorly on their real life. For example, one wouldn't want to appear xenophobic or bigoted. As a father of two children with Asian heritage, I know that to be the case.

As for your question, I have addressed that before. We have three artists here in Michigan, including me, plus Mr. Verma in India. To quote:"One of our artists, Sanjay Verma, does live in India. He is the National Award Winner there and often represents the country for foreign traveling Exhibitions. He is one of the best in the world at what he does and I am honored to work with him. He is also a really good guy. As for your fantasy that you are "pretty sure" that arch fiends are copying our Wagner card and selling them by the dozen at "flea markets"... you are better than that! We do, by the way, keep hi-res scans of every single card that has been made."

I've also worked with another National Award Winner from India, though not at the moment. Can I assume that your question is just one of curiosity, or is this an issue?

[sirraffles]

The phone numbers of bidders is almost always on the Paypal receipt. In addition to my number being on my website, I also give it out freely, not being anonymous. But of course I normally correspond via email and develop good relationships with interested parties.

Right now on my email newsletter list there are about 800 people. To get on the list one has had to either purchase something or request it.

I also sent out 60 Christmas gifts that I made by hand. Would you like me to copy you on some of the nice thank you notes?

I'm glad that you are bidding, thank you. I have no idea if they will grade them. Does it matter? I do know that they graded some of the 2005 issue.

Personally, I'm obviously not into grading or I wouldn't beat the heck out of all our cards. It is kind of a revolt, actually. I think it is easy to get carried away with condition.

[Leon]

There is a section on our rules page especially describing anonymity vs privacy on this board. "Anonymity" is where a member is not known by anyone. That isn't allowed. "Privacy" is where only the mods know who the member is. That is allowed unless you are having the kind of discussion like the one that is going on in this thread. Putting it another way, if you call into question anything about a person or company, your full name (which can be broken up with a period or two to prevent search hits) needs to be in those posts. I would say this thread qualifies so anyone debating this stuff in this thread needs to put their names by their posts. Nothing personal and thanks........ :)

[dabigyankeeman]

When we are asked why we say the price is too high, well in my case, a card is worth what i personally am willing to pay for it. With a very very few rare exceptions, i dont feel new cards are worth $50 or $80 dollars. If I am going to spend that kind of money, there are a ton of old Yankee cards from the 1920's (probably black&white cards in lessor condition) that I can buy for that price and I personally would rather have old stuff than something just produced. So when I say the price is too high, I am saying its too high for me, obviously some other people (the people winning the bidding) dont feel that way.

[rainier2004]

I think the artwork is nice on these cards and the cards themselves are intriguing. I just wouldn't spend too much on these. I would buy a couple reprint sets though, but respect Charles' concern of undermining the originals. Good luck!

[ChiefBenderForever]

Anyone dumb enough to buy as original is just that , stupid . Do they put fake on cz earrings? Fake on bogus rolex? Retro toys ? He doesn't have to date them , original art can be done however one wants. It's high quality stuff, $100 doesn't seem to bad when 1/1 Topps garbage goes for $1000s, it's all relative. Congrats on your success very unique product .

[novakjr]

The one really interesting thing about these, is that no matter how beautiful, rare or collectible these are, they've made grading impossible. Assuming at some point the TPG's decided to grade these, they couldn't properly without knowing the original extent of the artificial aging. Basically, when NEW, these are already in somewhat of a beater-like condition. So theoretically, a 3 or 4 is actually a 10..

Personally these don't interest me much. BUT if I were a "player collector" who had probably already achieved completion(or near completion) of said player, I'd probably jump through hoops to add these pieces to my collection.. Highly collectible Players with a very limited number of items available, like Sockalexis, Moonlight Graham(well, you get the idea), I would expect to sell for pretty high prices.

[cardhog]

@T206dk: "...They are made here, on the same 12 color press that the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art uses to produce their high-end lithographs... thanks, Charles" (aka Sir Raffles)

Except that the MMA does not use a "press" - they use an Epson inkjet printer. And Helmar Brewing does not use a press, you use an inkjet printer too!
The portasite.com priceguide says:
"...they are worthless as collectibles. No matter how attractive they look, they can have no collectible value. The first reason is that there is an unlimited print run, and anyone can reproduce them cheaply. The second (and more important) reason is that digital inks are water-soluble, and the air is filled with tiny molecules of water, which eventually dissolves the ink. Light also breaks down these inks, as does ozone – two things which are omnipresent, even in the most controlled environment. These factors will incrementally destroy the ink, starting with fading and blurring, loss of detail, and a “washed out” look. Eventually, the image will vanish. All of this will occur within somewhere between 10 and 100 years in a museum setting, much sooner at home. So these type of cards will not survive long enough to acquire any age-related value. In fact, it is the exact opposite: Unlike “real” cards, which appreciate in value with age, any value assigned to these type of cards will go down with age as their condition slowly degrades. They are most “valuable” when they are brand new, and it goes down from there. Which is contrary to the whole idea of “collecting” cards, and is also why they are not considered collectible."
Nothing produced on an inkjet is a collectible, period. It's like collecting fruit - it eventually goes bad and starts to stink! And Sir Raffles knows the difference between an ink jet printer and a 12 head press, which starts at over $1 million.... Gadzooks!

Bob All.en

[steve B]

@T206dk: "...They are made here, on the same 12 color press that the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art uses to produce their high-end lithographs... thanks, Charles" (aka Sir Raffles)

Except that the MMA does not use a "press" - they use an Epson inkjet printer. And Helmar Brewing does not use a press, you use an inkjet printer too!
The portasite.com priceguide says:
"...they are worthless as collectibles. No matter how attractive they look, they can have no collectible value. The first reason is that there is an unlimited print run, and anyone can reproduce them cheaply. The second (and more important) reason is that digital inks are water-soluble, and the air is filled with tiny molecules of water, which eventually dissolves the ink. Light also breaks down these inks, as does ozone – two things which are omnipresent, even in the most controlled environment. These factors will incrementally destroy the ink, starting with fading and blurring, loss of detail, and a “washed out” look. Eventually, the image will vanish. All of this will occur within somewhere between 10 and 100 years in a museum setting, much sooner at home. So these type of cards will not survive long enough to acquire any age-related value. In fact, it is the exact opposite: Unlike “real” cards, which appreciate in value with age, any value assigned to these type of cards will go down with age as their condition slowly degrades. They are most “valuable” when they are brand new, and it goes down from there. Which is contrary to the whole idea of “collecting” cards, and is also why they are not considered collectible."
Nothing produced on an inkjet is a collectible, period. It's like collecting fruit - it eventually goes bad and starts to stink! And Sir Raffles knows the difference between an ink jet printer and a 12 head press, which starts at over $1 million.... Gadzooks!

Bob All.en

So much just plain wrong here.

So you think this
http://store.metmuseum.org/limited-editions/louisa-chase-untitled/invt/99000614#.UxkQnzeYaUk

Came off an Epson inkjet?
It's bigger than 17x22, the largest size the big Epsons can handle.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&sku=CA61201-VM

Next, scroll dawn to the ink section for that printer.
"Fade Resistance / Print Longevity:
•Color: Up to 200 years
•Black-and-white: Over 200 years"

That's an expected life of 200 years. The footnote says indoors under glass and will vary depending on the medium. (Print on newsprint and 200 years is probably very optimistic. Print on something largely inert like Mylar- 200 years is probably going to be a bit low. )

I have items in my collection that were printed in inks designed to be ruined by water. They're over 100 years old and still look fine. (British stamps printed using fugitive inks so an attempt to soak or steam them off would ruin them.)

I also have stuff that's done by simple off the shelf home use inkjet that's around 20 years old and doing just fine.

The argument that they have no value because they can be reprinted is the same bogus argument Beckett has pushed against unlicensed cards for years.
Guess which is harder to find
1) Any particular unlicensed card from 1988
2) Any particular card from Topps, Fleer, or Donruss main sets from 1988.

If you answer 1, we need to talk because I've got a few I need.
And Upper Deck was caught twice reprinting their own cards. Ok, actually one reprinting, one essentially counterfeiting.

There are printing companies that have the big presses. There's no need for someone to own their own. And Multi color presses run a bit more than a million. Modern 5 color presses start around 2.3 million new.

I don't have any Helmars yet. They do seem to go for a bit more than I'd pay.


Steve Birmingham

[Runscott]

Man, I would love to have a 'set' of non-aged Helmars of all the Negro Leaguers cards he has created. They are really great, but alas, it aint happening.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTQ0WDMwMA==/z/4qoAAMXQeKNTMMqS/$_3.JPG

[bbcard1]

Though I think some are attractive, I will pass. The costs are just out of line for what they are in my opinion, but obviously, some folks disagree…and if that's what makes them happy, I'm all for it.

[T206DK]

Man, I would love to have a 'set' of non-aged Helmars of all the Negro Leaguers cards he has created. They are really great, but alas, it aint happening.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTQ0WDMwMA==/z/4qoAAMXQeKNTMMqS/$_3.JPG

theoretically, one could copy all his pics ( he used to have a blog with tons of them) and then print them out at high quality on good paper :cool:

[peterb69]

These are very nice cards and I praise the maker for the great artistic work. But yes they are just to expensive. I lost out last night on a Pop Llyod T201 looking card that was very nice. But upper $20's is just to much for a new card.

I also do not buy that new crap cards coming out of packs that have pieces of cut uniforms on them either. To expensive and will never hold the value they are today. Much rather spend my money on pre-war or pre-1975 cards.

But if prices come down on Helmar, I'd pop for a couple.

Peter Barrows

[the 'stache]

I've got to admit, I am completely smitten with these.

http://imageshack.com/a/img401/3452/tqto.jpghttp://imageshack.com/a/img541/7011/sqc7.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img21/5357/srh7.jpghttp://imageshack.com/a/img89/5244/5vtd.jpg

They put the big baseball card companies trying to cash in on vintage nostalgia to shame. Look at this 2014 Turkey Red card from Topps. What a joke!

http://cconnect.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/2014-Topps-Turkey-Red-Baseball-Base-Yasiel-Puig.jpg

The four cards above were out of my price range, but there are others of second-tire Hall of Famers who I might go after. They capture everything I love about pre-war baseball cards.

[dabigyankeeman]

I must admit, i dont have any Helmar cards, and have always been negative towards them, but lately i am getting closer and closer to starting to collect one of old Yankee players. They really are well done, and while i hate reprints beyond belief, they are not reprints, so look out world, i may soon be entering the Helmar collecting world!!!!

[Brian Van Horn]

They are a nice idea and they have good quality, but they serve to confuse new collectors of pre-WWII cards.