T206 carolina brights or brown hindu, which is tougher?

[CMIZ5290]

I know that the lists of rare backs on t206s has been talked about many times on this forum, and several list carolina brights as being scarcer and more valuable than brown hindus. Based on recent comparable sales, i am actually leaning towards brown hindu. Would love to hear thoughts and opinions ....thanks

[rp12367]

I think CB is tougher. Althought brown Hindu prices have been heating up. I still think CB's are far and few, compaired to Hindu's.

[atx840]

In a three month search to putting together a brand run I found five CBs on the bay, two on the BST and two at the big auction sites. On any given day there were 5-10 Br Hindus available.

[Vegas-guy]

I pulled this from a different thread. But as for sales or $$$ I'm not sure which is more?

T206 Rare Backs List

1 - Ty Cobb
2 - Old Mill (Southern Leagues) - Brown*
3 - Lenox - Brown
4 - Broad Leaf 460
5 - Drum 350
6 - Uzit
7 - Hindu - Red
8 - Lenox - Black
***Red Cross Type 1***
9 - Broad Leaf 350
10 - Blank Back*
***Coupon Type 1***
11 - Carolina Brights
12 - Piedmont 350-460 Factory No.42
13 - American Beauty 460
14 - Hindu - Brown
15 - American Beauty 350 (No Frame)
16 - Sovereign 460
17 - Cycle 460
18 - Tolstoi
19 - Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory No.25
20 - El Principe De Gales
21 - American Beauty 350 (Frame)
22 - Sovereign 350 (Apple Green)
23 - Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory No.42
24 - Cycle 350
25 - Old Mill (Southern Leagues) - Black
26 - Sovereign 150
27 - Sweet Caporal 150 Factory No.649 Overprint
28 - Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory No.42 Overprint
29 - Old Mill (Base Ball Subjects)
30 - Polar Bear
31 - Sovereign 350 (Forest Green)
32 - Sweet Caporal 150 Factory No.25
33 - Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory No.30
34 - Sweet Caporal 150 Factory No.30
35 - Piedmont 150 Factory No.25
36 - Piedmont 350-460 Factory No.25
37 - Sweet Caporal 350 Factory No.25
38 - Sweet Caporal 350 Factory No.30
39 - Piedmont 350 Factory No.25

[CMIZ5290]

No way in the world i would believe american beauty 460 backs are more valuable than brown hindu

[Jaybird]

Scarcity and value are two different things as has been discussed before in other threads. Plenty of cards are more scarce than the T206 Wagner, but few are as valuable.

[Mikehealer]

Nearly twice as many players available with brown Hindu than AB 460, so a good chance there are more Hindus out there.

[CMIZ5290]

I think jason makes a great point. I know that a recent sgc 60 hughie jennings with an ab460 back just sold on net54 for less than $500! 3 recent psa 3 hall of famers with brown hindu backs in auction houses have sold for $2500 and up.

[Vegas-guy]

I think jason makes a great point. I know that a recent sgc 60 hughie jennings with an ab460 back just sold on net54 for less than $500! 3 recent psa 3 hall of famers with brown hindu backs in auction houses have sold for $2500 and up.

I agree! While I don't think the Jennings would be anywhere near 2500 I do think if at auction it would be more than 500, it's hard to compare when one is a sale price and the others are auction prices?

[Gradedcardman]

I have been following both for the last 12 months and have found the Carolina Brights to be quite a bit tougher to find. Either via eBay or from the major auction houses. I still love them both and am always looking for VG or better if anyone finds some :)

[FrankWakefield]

If you're sorting through bunches of old white border tobacco cards, you're likely to find more brown Hindu cards than Carolina Brights. Before folks were all excited about different backs, Hindu's were encountered occasionally, and Carolina Brights seldom.

[t206blogcom]

I've found Carolina Brights to be much more difficult to find than Hindu.

[Blitzu]

I've been in the T206 hunt for backs for over 5 years and have been a serious collector of cards for over 20 years. CB's are by far more scare than brown hindus. Brown hindus have been fairly readily accessible at any given time where as the CB's come and go once every few months from my standpoint.

Take the CB if you ever see one.

Also, to add to the discussion on AB 460's... good luck finding them. I have seen those less than I have seen CB's.

[judsonhamlin]

I think that I would rank the CB's up there with Broadleafs as being more difficult than Hindu

[ethicsprof]

obviously anecdotal at best, but I have 1 C B and 10 brown hindus.
cb's have been much tougher.

best,
barry

[mrvster]

I was just talking about this today ironically.....cb way tuffer than hindu...close to broadleaf in scarcity.....:D

[Ronnie73]

I keep track of all T206 rare backs on ebay and here is an exact breakdown starting from a year ago today. Cards listed multiple times were only counted as one card. Numbers are for cards that sold and didn't sell.

American Beauty 460 - 23 cards
Broadleaf 350 - 19 cards
Carolina Brights - 22 cards
Hindu Brown - 70 cards

[DixieBaseball]

I keep track of all T206 rare backs on ebay and here is an exact breakdown starting from a year ago today. Cards listed multiple times were only counted as one card. Numbers are for cards that sold and didn't sell.

American Beauty 460 - 23 cards
Broadleaf 350 - 19 cards
Carolina Brights - 22 cards
Hindu Brown - 70 cards

Ronnie - Do you have a break down on the Hindu's with respect to Southern Leaguer's vs non SL Brown Hindu's ? I would think the SL Hindu would be tougher than a regular Hindu to find...

[FrankWakefield]

Hard numbers, Ron. The low number of AB 460s surprises me slightly. Thanks for posting that. Seems most of us recognize that CB's are tougher to come by than Hindu's.

[Abravefan11]

I keep track of all T206 rare backs on ebay and here is an exact breakdown starting from a year ago today. Cards listed multiple times were only counted as one card. Numbers are for cards that sold and didn't sell.

American Beauty 460 - 23 cards
Broadleaf 350 - 19 cards
Carolina Brights - 22 cards
Hindu Brown - 70 cards

Ron those are great numbers and thanks for sharing them. I would expect the brown Hindu numbers to be more than normal as at least one nice size collection of them was sold over several months this year.

[Ronnie73]

Tim is right. There was a couple times that 10+ Hindu's were listed and that can make it seem like the Hindu's are not that rare compared to other backs based on the numbers only. Jeremy, I counted the SL's on the list and it works out to 47 Regulars and 23 SL's. I didn't list it before but the Red Hindu count is 6 for the past year.

[Ronnie73]

Just wanted to add these numbers from the population reports. SGC as of 12/21/2011 - Hindu 639 cards, Carolina Brights 180 cards. PSA as of last update - Hindu 477 cards, Carolina Brights 123 cards.

[Blitzu]

It's always been of interest to me, and this has probably been discussed here at length, but I wonder what the population reports would be like if the 30,000 plus graded PSA cards we're designated by back. There's potentially room for an entire rethinking of rariety with those numbers.

[steve B]

My collection is odd as usual.

American Beauty 460 - 1
Broadleaf 350 - 1
Carolina Brights - 3
Hindu Brown - 2

Steve B

[FrankWakefield]

Blitzu, I think the population report information would be about worthless. First, rarer backed cards are more likely to be graded than common backed cards. Next, lots of the cards have been broken out, and some of those have been resubmitted. Another factor is that the graders had a difficult time in accurately assessing the card, some more than others; and by that I'm not talking about a number grade, but actually identifying the card.

Similarly, to look at a collection, someone might have tried and tried to get one Uzit, one Carolina Brights, one Broadleaf... to then see about 500 white border cards, one of which is a CB and one of which is BL and think that 0.2% of the collection is CB, so it must be that 0.2% of all cards out there are CB... there's the trap. When I started collecting these, I gathered about half a dozen Hindu's without any awareness or conscious effort, it was mainly about the fronts then. That wasn't true for CB or BL...

[Ronnie73]

Frank, I too believe the population numbers are way off due to the reasons you explained but I feel that looking at the overall numbers of graded backs gives an idea of what backs are more rare. We all probably have a good idea on whats more rare anyways but its nice to see some numbers back up our ideas even if the numbers are not that reliable. I have a feeling that the margin of error is about an equal percentage across all card backs and if thats true, the numbers based on percentage only, would be close to accurate. I'm not trying to start a debate with anyone since I do agree the population reports are flawed but I do believe they are somewhat useful.

[Blitzu]

Blitzu, I think the population report information would be about worthless. First, rarer backed cards are more likely to be graded than common backed cards. Next, lots of the cards have been broken out, and some of those have been resubmitted. Another factor is that the graders had a difficult time in accurately assessing the card, some more than others; and by that I'm not talking about a number grade, but actually identifying the card.

Similarly, to look at a collection, someone might have tried and tried to get one Uzit, one Carolina Brights, one Broadleaf... to then see about 500 white border cards, one of which is a CB and one of which is BL and think that 0.2% of the collection is CB, so it must be that 0.2% of all cards out there are CB... there's the trap. When I started collecting these, I gathered about half a dozen Hindu's without any awareness or conscious effort, it was mainly about the fronts then. That wasn't true for CB or BL...

I hear ya, but there are still a lot of "what ifs" left out there because of these cards. The possibility still exists that one could have sent in 3 dozen drums (just an example) at one time because they stumbled upon them and has been hording them since. Not that it would be a great deal of cards to change all perceptions but it would be meaningful enough to know.

Has PSA ever made an effort to figure out what these unlabeled cards are?
Sorry for the highjack OP. It's my last question about this side note.

[Ronnie73]

Has PSA ever made an effort to figure out what these unlabeled cards are?
Sorry for the highjack OP. It's my last question about this side note.

PSA offers a discounted price to have them reholdered with the correct back info. The number of unidentified backs continues to go down but will never reach zero since many may have been broken out and others may be in collections where the owner doesn't mind the missing notation on the holder.

[FrankWakefield]

Hey there, I gotta agree that the margin of error would be the same across the board, and probably for that reason a non-factor. I was wrong thinking it would be, I didn't think through that to the end. And realistically they do get most of 'em correctly identified.

[CMIZ5290]

Thanks guys for alot of great feedback. I would have to admit now that cb's are rarer. But why in the world is the price difference not there? Again, especially with hall of famers, brown hindu comparable grades seem to be higher. I am just trying to get in tune with the on-going trend of rarer backs.....thanks

[ullmandds]

I think Hindu prices are higher because there are a few people going after them...whether they're going after the hindu subset...or just hoarding them...don't know...but they are getting bid up...as compared to Carolina Brights.

[Ronnie73]

Hi Kevin, This is just my opinion but might be why the prices don't match the rarity. I believe that when a Carolina Brights back is for sale, a collector tends to purchace or win it and it go's into their collection. Alot of the Hindu backs I see for sale, get bought and then resold for a profit and sometimes are then resold again by another person for more of a mark-up and profit. I just think the collectors are getting the CB's before the dealers do and at a fair price too. Here's an example, I planned on bidding on a Johnny Evers with an American Beauty 350 WF back ungraded that sold for $168.26 on 8/22/2011 on ebay. I had a family emergency that night and didn't get to bid but if I did, I would have probably won and it would have stayed in my collection. A Net54 member won it and had it graded and came back a PSA 3 and sold it for $250.00 around 10/29/2011 to another member who then sold in on ebay for $399.99 around 12/18/2011. So the point i'm making is dealers that are trying to make money are driving the prices up but if I won it for under $200 then that would be the going price since I wouldn't be selling it. I have no problem with anyone trying to make money and I know someone would have to be willing to pay for it but I just believe the more times a card changes hands and everyone wants their cut of the profit, it inflates the prices. When a collector adds a card to their collection at a fair price, then other similar cards tend to sell around the same price. Hope this kinda makes sence and I didn't confuse anyone but remember its just my opinion and thought of why some prices are way out of wack.;)

[FrankWakefield]

I agree with Dr. U, there are a few folks who are now looking at a run on the Hindu cards. Putting those cards together is conceivable. Most of us are happy to have a few. Maybe if someone has been watching Hindu sales on eBay, one thing to look at would be to see who the top 5 bidders have been. Sometimes someone might not bid on one because they already have that one. But I'd think that some of the same folks are going after them...

[Ronnie73]

Peter and Frank, you are probably right about the same buyers competing for the Hindu backs. I used to follow who the winning bidders were on items back in the good days of ebay but now the user names are blocked. I can understand why they did that because I used to get hate mail when i'd buy up all of a certain item. I remember one guy saying, how many Randy Johnson rookie cards do you need? :D I told him i'd stop hoarding them when I got to 10,000.:cool: Anyways, if its true that there are a few working on a set of Hindu's, maybe when they finish, the prices will drop a bit with less competition and the rest of us can add a few at some fair prices.

[wonkaticket]

Most of the guys I know of who are working on Hindu sets are so close they are not driving prices up besides a few cards they need. FWIW.

[lutherlafy]

Nice post.
I checked the PSA population report and it said 4 Carolina Brights PSA 6. I checked mine and I own 3 of the 4.
I also have 1-PSA 5, 1-PSA 4 and 2-PSA 3.

I did not realize they were so scare.

[CMIZ5290]

I'll tell you another back that i think is greatly underrated, and scarcer than most people think is tolstoi's. I checked the psa population and there are only 10 graded higher than a psa 6.

[Ronnie73]

Kevin, Tolstoi's sure are condition rare. Here are the SGC numbers to go with your PSA numbers. 21 cards in SGC 80/6, 7 cards in SGC 84/7, and 2 cards in SGC 86/7.5. No Tolstoi's higher than a 86/7.5.

[Ronnie73]

Just realized that SGC doesn't have a 6.5 grade slot like PSA does. Wonder how a PSA 6.5 crossover would go. Either a 80 or 84. Guess SGC needs a 82 grade. Sorry, off topic.

[CMIZ5290]

Ronnie- you have just made my day because i have an sgc 86 cy young tolstoi and did not know it was the highest sgc graded....thanks for the sgc info

[danmckee]

CB is much tougher than brown Hindu. Red Hindu is tougher than CB.

[CMIZ5290]

Dan- i agree population wise, but not price wise. If you look at psa pop reports, brown hindus outnumber cb's 3 to 1. This was the reason for my thread, i just did not understand why prices did not reflect that. It just seems that cb's should be considerably higher but they are not.

[Ronnie73]

Kevin, Glad I made your day. Here is some other interesting Tolstoi info. On ebay in 2011, only 3 Tolstoi's were offered in a 80/6 grade with none higher. They were Neal Ball PSA 6 $600, Josh Devore SGC 80 $450, and Clark Griffith Batting PSA 6 $760. So, Tolstoi high grades are really hard to find but seem to be fairly priced for how rare they are.

[CMIZ5290]

Who ever got the clark griffith psa 6, please call me!

[Blitzu]

Dan- i agree population wise, but not price wise. If you look at psa pop reports, brown hindus outnumber cb's 3 to 1. This was the reason for my thread, i just did not understand why prices did not reflect that. It just seems that cb's should be considerably higher but they are not.

As the number of serious collectors rise, and the knowledge base increases, the respect and value for these truly rare backs will increase significantly. CB's will surpass the value of brown Hindus over time.

[tiger8mush]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380402359127

Common SGC 50 Cycle 460 just went for $400. I thought it was high at $200 with a day left to go. Shows what I know haha.

[freakhappy]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380402359127

Common SGC 50 Cycle 460 just went for $400. I thought it was high at $200 with a day left to go. Shows what I know haha.

I was going to post this exact same auction after I watched it end for over $400. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw what it went for.

Anyone have any explanation for this? Looks like it went for double of what it seems like it should go for.

[Vegas-guy]

I was going to post this exact same auction after I watched it end for over $400. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw what it went for.

Anyone have any explanation for this? Looks like it went for double of what it seems like it should go for.

How/where do you come up with what a card "should" go for? I know the back multiplier x (what) player bla bla bla but that just seems to be way off. Is it just watching the market on previous cards or.....

[freakhappy]

How/where do you come up with what a card "should" go for? I know the back multiplier x (what) player bla bla bla but that just seems to be way off. Is it just watching the market on previous cards or.....

From previous sales. I guess in reality any card could reach any amount depending on who wants the card bad enough. Going off of the rarity of the back, the demand isn't crazy enough to reach the $400 plateau. It does seem that a good deal of 206's have picked up a lot of steam lately and are going for 20% more than they went for six months ago! Those rediculous BIN prices on Ebay are starting to be the real sale prices! :eek:

[pgellis]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380402359127

Common SGC 50 Cycle 460 just went for $400. I thought it was high at $200 with a day left to go. Shows what I know haha.

Yeah, I was going to start a new thread on this Cycle 460 card that went for $400+. That was shocking to me. I only have one Cycle 460 (Mike Donlin) in SGC60 (one grade higher) and I got it a few years ago for less than $200.

WOW!

[freakhappy]

Come to think of it Reg, maybe it is rare to find a Cycle 460 in a '4' grade or higher...that in itself could push the price sky high...these types of variables cannot be 'looked up' as far as price goes, but will only be determined by the bidder's desire to pay up!

[Vegas-guy]

Come to think of it Reg, maybe it is rare to find a Cycle 460 in a '4' grade or higher...that in itself could push the price sky high...these types of variables cannot be 'looked up' as far as price goes, but will only be determined by the bidder's desire to pay up!

Thanks! This is more of what I was thinking, if it's a "rare" back and it's the highest "know" grade of that back and card it's pretty much a guessing game??? It just depends on how bad you want it.

[pgellis]

Come to think of it Reg, maybe it is rare to find a Cycle 460 in a '4' grade or higher...that in itself could push the price sky high...these types of variables cannot be 'looked up' as far as price goes, but will only be determined by the bidder's desire to pay up!

Interesting thought.....so I just looked up my Cycle 460 Mike Donlin (with Bat)in SGC60 on their Population Report. They don't distinguish between Cycle 350 and Cycle 460, so it's difficult to tell, but their is only 1 Cycle Mike Donlin graded higher than my SGC60. It may be a Cycle 350, but who knows.

What do you guys think a Cycle 460 Mike Donlin (with Bat) in SGC60 would bring today?

[freakhappy]

Interesting thought.....so I just looked up my Cycle 460 Mike Donlin (with Bat)in SGC60 on their Population Report. They don't distinguish between Cycle 350 and Cycle 460, so it's difficult to tell, but their is only 1 Cycle Mike Donlin graded higher than my SGC60. It may be a Cycle 350, but who knows.

What do you guys think a Cycle 460 Mike Donlin (with Bat) in SGC60 would bring today?

It's hard to tell, I guess the market would determine that...but looking at the price of the recent Cycle 460, you could be in good shape!

The Donlin only comes with a Cycle 460 back (thanks Tim and co at 206resource.com), so the higher populated one has to be a 460...still a nice grade. And knowing that only one higher grade exists, that's pretty awesome.

[Abravefan11]

..so I just looked up my Cycle 460 Mike Donlin (with Bat)in SGC60 on their Population Report. They don't distinguish between Cycle 350 and Cycle 460, so it's difficult to tell, but their is only 1 Cycle Mike Donlin graded higher than my SGC60. It may be a Cycle 350, but who knows.


Hi Phil - Just for future reference SGC lists their T206 pop report information by year.

1909 = 150 Subjects back.
1910 = 350 Subjects back.
1911 = 460 Subjects back.
1909-11 = Assorted back. (Old Mill, Polar Bear, EPDG, etc.)

All of the Donlin Cycle's are listed as 1911 meaning they are all 460. I hope this helps.

[MVSNYC]

seems like SGC's T206 pop report can give a collector a better idea of the POP of a particular back brand versus PSA. it's very misleading when auctions say in their descriptions, for example "T206 PSA 5 OLD MILL Ferris- 1 of 2, w/ none higher for this brand". for the first +/- 15 years of PSA's existence, they DID NOT distinguish the different backs when slabbing T206, this has only been done for about the last 6 years or so. so it's very misleading for ebay sellers or auction houses to call out the Back POP. very misleading.

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Michael,
Good point.... The PSA pop report on T206's "backs" is about as useful as SMR... Take a look at the Carolina Brights report that shows only 28 cards graded PSA 4....I have 20 in my collection that do not show up on this report... Be well Brian

[Ronnie73]

Heres some research/info on ebay sales of Cycle 460 in a 4/50 grade or higher in the last year. Sold dates are within 15 days of actual sale.

Bill Bradley - With Bat - PSA 4 - $233.50 - 11/13/2011
Mordecai Brown - Chicago Shirt -PSA 4 - $677.55 - 11/13/2011
Howie Camnitz - Hands Over Head - PSA 4 - $275.00 - 12/18/2011
Doc Crandall - With Cap - PSA 4 - $499.99 - 11/3/2011 (UNSOLD)
Clark Griffith - Batting - PSA 4 - $333.78 - 1/16/2011
Buck Herzog - Boston - PSA 4 - $611.25 - 7/23/2011
Tom Needham - PSA 4 - $499.99 - 12/18/2011

[freakhappy]

Heres some research/info on ebay sales of Cycle 460 in a 4/50 grade or higher in the last year. Sold dates are within 15 days of actual sale.

Bill Bradley - With Bat - PSA 4 - $233.50 - 11/13/2011
Mordecai Brown - Chicago Shirt -PSA 4 - $677.55 - 11/13/2011
Howie Camnitz - Hands Over Head - PSA 4 - $275.00 - 12/18/2011
Doc Crandall - With Cap - PSA 4 - $499.99 - 11/3/2011 (UNSOLD)
Clark Griffith - Batting - PSA 4 - $333.78 - 1/16/2011
Buck Herzog - Boston - PSA 4 - $611.25 - 7/23/2011
Tom Needham - PSA 4 - $499.99 - 12/18/2011

Thanks for the update on the sales, Ronnie. I think by the looks of the report, it somewhat confirms that if really depends on who wants the card bad enough. You have a HOF'er that sold a year ago for nearly half the price of what a common did a half a year later...doesn't make sense to me. Even more proof that the SMR can't be trusted and we pay what we are willing to fork up for a card.

On a little harsher back that you don't see rise up very often, people will definitely pay up for something they are not sure they will see for a long time...especially a mid to high grade. Can't say I blame them.

206's are on fire!!!

[philliesphan]

I have two Cycle 460s, both graded 4.0 (Doolan Batting and Magee with Bat). Don't yet have a Mcquillan bat. But I never realized that the Cycle 460s were a condition rarity.

Could this simply be an outlier set of increases?

M

[Bridwell]

Hi Marc,

Cycle 460's are more scarce than people think. I've seen 10 Cycle 350's for every 1 Cycle 460 over the last 20 years.

Ron

[MVSNYC]

will be interesting to see if a thread like this will raise the prices of cycle 460's even higher going forward.