POLL: Who is responsible to reimburse collectors for bad autographs

[RichardSimon]

Some dealers do not use TPA's. The good ones will guarantee their autographs authenticity for life. If you present them with proper evidence they will give you a refund. Sometimes the evidence will consist of proof that the item could not have been signed during the lifetime of that player. Sometimes the evidence is a TPA rejection letter. Sometimes it is the opinion of a person or persons that the dealer respects.
As far as the dealers who use TPA. Who do you think is responsible for refunding the customer if an autograph is proven to be not authentic?
The dealer, who collected the money, or the authenticator?

[novakjr]

The only answer I can come up with is the Dealer. First, I believe the dealer is responsible for refunding to the buyer. Then, the TPA should be responsible for refunding to the dealer.. However, if the dealer will not refund to the buyer, then the TPA should refund the buyer. Basically, the TPA should be responsible for refunding whoever has the item in their possession, however, dealer should save the buyer the hassle of having to deal with the TPA.

[barrysloate]

I said the TPA because it's likely the dealer carried the autograph based on the TPA giving his seal of approval. But he does bear some responsibilty too.

[thecatspajamas]

Are we talking refund of the authentication fees, or the sale price of the item?

[drc]

The owner of the item is responsible for refund. If the owner wants to have an afterwords dispute with the TPA that's a second issue.

You are paying PSA to give opinion, not take over financial responsibilities for your sales, not as your insurance company. If people want PSA to start being 100% financially responsible for a $20,000 item, start assuming the authentication fee will be substantially higher. Perhaps $20,000.

This is not to suggest I believe PSA bears no financial responsibilities for shoddy, irresponsible work. A seller might indeed be able to after a refund take PSA to court and win some monies.

But, when in doubt, the legal owner of an item is responsible for the refund.

[Mr. Zipper]

The dealer actually sold and profited from the item. Why would the TPA issue the refund?

The notion that "the dealer sold it based upon the TPAs opinion " absolves the dealer from any responsibility.

[RichardSimon]

Are we talking refund of the authentication fees, or the sale price of the item?

Talking about the sale price of the item.

[RichardSimon]

The dealer actually sold and profited from the item. Why would the TPA issue the refund?

The notion that "the dealer sold it based upon the TPAs opinion " absolves the dealer from any responsibility.

I do agree with you Steve, but it seemed based on other threads that others thought otherwise.
Thought it would be an interesting poll.

[steve B]

I voted for the dealer because that's the simplest answer in what could be a complex situation. If I sold something that wasn't right and I could be shown that it wasn't right I'd refund just to make things easy for the customer.

I think though that ultimate responsibility depends a lot on the item and the timeline. If I bought it with a good cert and it's later proven bad I'd want a refund from whoever I bought it from. I might discuss it with the TPA because I might not have bought it if not for their mistake. (Assuming of course that I'd done my own research to begin with and saw no obvious problems like an item made after the signers death )

But if I bought it without a cert and sent it in myself then I would be on the hook for the whole thing. I might tell the TPA about the item so they hopefully could use it as an opportunity for further training if it's employees or as a bit of extra knowledge for themselves.

But what about an item that's circulated in a hobby for years and passed through several dealers and collectors and may even have multiple certs issued years apart but new information has discredited it? It's happened in stamps, and I'd bet it's happened in every other hobby too.
I'm not sure what should happen then. Ultimately it should work it's way back along the line of people who have owned it. But that's not at all realistic.

Steve B

[gnaz01]

I voted for the dealer, and if the item is not what the TPA states it to be, the dealer needs to take that up with the TPA or whomever he/she purchased it from.

[thecatspajamas]

The owner of the item is responsible for refund. If the owner wants to have an afterwords dispute with the TPA that's a second issue.

You are paying PSA to give opinion, not take over financial responsibilities for your sales, not as your insurance company. If people want PSA to start being 100% financially responsible for a $20,000 item, start assuming the authentication fee will be substantially higher. Perhaps $20,000.

This is not to suggest I believe PSA bears no financial responsibilities for shoddy, irresponsible work. A seller might indeed be able to after a refund take PSA to court and win some monies.

But, when in doubt, the legal owner of an item is responsible for the refund.

My thoughts exactly, which is why I asked for clarification as to what the poll question was suggesting. I would be very surprised if any TPA leaves themselves open to any financial responsibility above and beyond the actual authentication fees.

As drc said, that gets more into "authentication insurance" territory, and I would definitely expect to not only pay much more for the authentication of a high-end auto, but also have to jump through a much more rigorous set of hoops to prove a "bad authentication" claim.

That kind of "limitation of liability" to the cost of the services provided is pretty common in the professional world unless the one providing the services is required to be insured/bonded, in which case you will pay more for their services. There just ain't no such thing as free insurance :p

Amended to add: While I wouldn't be surprised to see "authentication insurance" as a TPA offering someday, I don't think the rate would be 100% of the item's fair market value.

[mr2686]

Who's responsible for the refund? The government of course! Heck, they bail out everyone else :D:eek:;)

[novakjr]

Who's responsible for the refund? The government of course! Heck, they bail out everyone else :D:eek:;)

Well, in a way you're correct. Because if the dealer takes it back for a full refund, and is unable to get re-imbursed himself, it's possible that he would write off the money he had into it as a loss on his taxes..

[drc]

Another way to view it is, if the TPA makes the refund, that would mean the seller keeps the $10,000 for a Babe Ruth ball returned for it's a forgery. How often do any of us get to keep all the money when something is returned for being a fake or missgraded? Try never. Now that would be a screwy system.

[David Atkatz]

You might as well ask "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Both the auction houses and the TPAs have legally indemnified themselves. Read the small print in the auction catalogs and the TPAs contracts. According to them--and who has the money to test whether it can hold up in court?--neither of them will take financial responsibility.

[drc]

I believe 7. Angels that is.

[packs]

I know JSA/PSA only offer opinions, but they are industry accepted opinions. To me, if I buy an item from a seller and the item is found not to be authentic then I would expect not only a full refund on the auction price, but a refund on the authentication price as well. This would only be if the seller "guaranteed" authenticity. If a seller isn't sure and states as much, as long as they are willing to refund the auction price I am satisfied.

[barrysloate]

I still have a problem with the dealer being fully responsible for restitution. Sure, if it's a $300 item and it turns out to be bad, write a check and move on. It's a writeoff and just good business.

But let's say it's a 100K item, and it's something you wouldn't normally handle, but because it had a LOA from a reputable third party, you had a sufficient level of comfort. Then five years later, you get a call from the person you sold it to who says he knows it's bad and he wants his 100K back. And you don't have that kind of money (most dealers don't), you can't get any satisfaction from the authenticator, you sold it in good faith, and you might have to refinance your house or go belly up to reimburse him.

And what if that 100K item was an auction consignment, and the auctioneer goes back to the consignor who refuses under any circumstances to return all the money. Should everybody be whole except the dealer who will be out 100K? I think this is a complicated matter.

[Caseyatbat]

The dealer has to take the responsibility. These are inherent risks that a dealer must assume when he sells an item on the open market. Especially when they guarantee the authenticity of an item. The TPA's do not even guarantee the item, it is only their opinion. So when a dealer actually gives his own guarantee, he is assuming the risk of possible return later. Even if the same TPA that has already authenticated the item, later decides to fail it.

Maybe if the dealer sold the item "as is" but still with proper TPA he would not have to worry about return. But on the other hand, obviously buyers do not feel as comfortable buying items "as is" and typically are not willing to pay as much.

[HRBAKER]

So the TPAs continue to get a pass here and continue to collect their fees.
Absent any responsibility for getting it right.

[Leon]

So the TPAs continue to get a pass here and continue to collect their fees.
Absent any responsibility for getting it right.

my thoughts too :eek:.

[Caseyatbat]

I am a supporter of TPA's. I believe they are a very useful tool and asset in this industry. Lets face it, without them this hobby would be a complete disaster. The majority of autographs in today's market are forgeries. Major TPA's are desperately needed. Yes they make mistakes, but they are only human and in my experiences are right on the money 99% of the time. Just like we as dealers and collectors are always learning, so are they.

I think the problem here is consumers are not taking TPA for what it is, "an opinion". You should never buy an item in 100% confidence just because it has top tier TPA. Buyers always have the option to seek alternative opinions, or do your own research and determine for yourself.

[HRBAKER]

I am a supporter of TPA's. I believe they are a very useful tool and asset in this industry. Lets face it, without them this hobby would be a complete disaster. The majority of autographs in today's market are forgeries. Major TPA's are desperately needed. Yes they make mistakes, but they are only human and in my experiences are right on the money 99% of the time. Just like we as dealers and collectors are always learning, so are they.

I think the problem here is consumers are not taking TPA for what it is, "an opinion". You should never buy an item in 100% confidence just because it has top tier TPA. Buyers always have the option to seek alternative opinions, or do your own research and determine for yourself.

Casey do you think that is the way they market themselves?

[RichardSimon]

I am a supporter of TPA's. I believe they are a very useful tool and asset in this industry. Lets face it, without them this hobby would be a complete disaster. The majority of autographs in today's market are forgeries. Major TPA's are desperately needed. Yes they make mistakes, but they are only human and in my experiences are right on the money 99% of the time. Just like we as dealers and collectors are always learning, so are they.

I think the problem here is consumers are not taking TPA for what it is, "an opinion". You should never buy an item in 100% confidence just because it has top tier TPA. Buyers always have the option to seek alternative opinions, or do your own research and determine for yourself.

Casey,
This hobby has been around for a long, long time and managed very well without TPA's. I gave my opinion gratis on probably hundreds if not thousands of autographs for many years before TPA became a big business.
The hobby has headed down the disastrous path due in large part to the internet. It is now the wild west. There is a need for something to assist people in their autograph pursuits. But the system as it now stands is busted.
The presence of the alphabet TPA's has lead to the presence of the other TPA's whose corruption we have discussed here many, many times.
The alphabet TPA's have done some good. However, they profess to be what they are not, the implication in their advertising is that they are foolproof, that a TPA cert. guarantees (even if they don't word it that way) authenticity. Many in the hobby have placed them on a pedastal (though many fewer than say a year ago) , a pedastal that they don't really deserve to be on.
Your final statement is right on the money. "Buyers always have the option to seek alternative opinions, or do your own research and determine for yourself."
Buy the autograph, not the cert.

[barrysloate]

If the dealer must incur full responsibility for selling a bad autograph, and not the TPA....given the current state of the hobby, I would never ever touch an autograph again. If I still ran auctions, I would reject them outright. The potential legal and financial exposure is not worth the possible commissions I might make. Period.

[Caseyatbat]

I believe the problem is not how they actually market themselves, rather how consumers are perceiving their opinion. Most people just assume it is genuine because it is authenticated by top tier TPA. If people actually just take 30 seconds to read the letter of authenticity it states very clearly this is only their considered opinion, and it should be treated as such.

I don't actually see the TPA's guaranteeing the authenticity of any particular item. (Yes I know they originally did years ago, but not anymore) It is usually the auction house or dealer doing that in the same sentence. An example would be, "for iron clad assurance, this item has been authenticated by PSA"

In the end, dealers want their higher end items authenticated by nationally recognized, major third party authenticators for marketing purposes. For instance, if you were buying a Ty Cobb single singed ball for 20K, would you feel more comfortable buying with a PSA letter? Or more comfortable buying it authenticated from a guy who certified it in his basement? I would take the PSA everytime. But on the flipside, I may ask the guy is his basement for his opinion as well so I could have both opinions.

[David W]

The problem is 99% of the time you can't "PROVE" an auto is good or bad.

It's an opinion, and some people's opinions are better than others.

[barrysloate]

But I would expect a whole lot more than a considered opinion from someone who makes his living solely by making these opinions. If your doctor said it was his considered opinion you needed heart surgery, but wasn't absolutely sure, would that work for most people?

If a TPA is authenticating a 1927 Yankee ball, I want him to be 99.99% sure he is right, and I want him to stand by that opinion. Otherwise, his services are pretty much worthless.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard,

Yes I completely agree with you. It is the autograph that should be bought, not the cert.

[RichardSimon]

I believe the problem is not how they actually market themselves, rather how consumers are perceiving their opinion. Most people just assume it is genuine because it is authenticated by top tier TPA. If people actually just take 30 seconds to read the letter of authenticity it states very clearly this is only their considered opinion, and it should be treated as such.

I don't actually see the TPA's guaranteeing the authenticity of any particular item. (Yes I know they originally did years ago, but not anymore) It is usually the auction house or dealer doing that in the same sentence. An example would be, "for iron clad assurance, this item has been authenticated by PSA"

In the end, dealers want their higher end items authenticated by nationally recognized, major third party authenticators for marketing purposes. For instance, if you were buying a Ty Cobb single singed ball for 20K, would you feel more comfortable buying with a PSA letter? Or more comfortable buying it authenticated from a guy who certified it in his basement? I would take the PSA everytime. But on the flipside, I may ask the guy is his basement for his opinion as well so I could have both opinions.

If I was buying a $20K item (though I have some very nice items in my collection I am not in that $20K item collector category) I would feel much more comfortable buying it from Jim Stinson, Ron Gordon, Bill Corcoran, Kevin Keating or Rich Albersheim, without a TPA, than buying it online from someone selling it with a TPA.

[Caseyatbat]

Dealers use major TPA's because it allows the items to be sold for money. For instance, a Mickey Mantle signed baseball with no TPA typically sells for the 350 dollar range. The same ball with a PSA letter will most likely sell for the 600 dollar range. That is a big difference. This happens because the buyer feels more comfortable buying it because it was authenticated by a nationally recognized TPA.

Yes its true there may be more knowledgeable smaller scale authenticators out there, but they are not major companies that are nationally recognized. If they decided to expand and become major companies like the other TPA's, maybe they can push them out and take over. But until that happens the larger ones are going to be the ones in demand. Not everybody can know about the smaller scale authenticators doing it out of their "basement", even if they are actually better at doing it.

[RichardSimon]

Dealers use major TPA's because it allows the items to be sold for money. For instance, a Mickey Mantle signed baseball with no TPA typically sells for the 350 dollar range. The same ball with a PSA letter will most likely sell for the 600 dollar range. That is a big difference. This happens because the buyer feels more comfortable buying it because it was authenticated by a nationally recognized TPA.

Yes its true there may be more knowledgeable smaller scale authenticators out there, but they are not major companies that are nationally recognized. If they decided to expand and become major companies like the other TPA's, maybe they can push them out and take over. But until that happens the larger ones are going to be the ones in demand. Not everybody can know about the smaller scale authenticators doing it out of their "basement", even if they are actually better at doing it.

Casey - I am not sure if you were referring to my prior post but the names I mentioned are mostly nationally recognized autograph dealers, not small time authenticators.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard,

I agree with you, I would feel pretty confident buying from those dealers as well. But if I go to sell that item I bought with their personal COA, I feel it has a better chance of selling for more money if it carried both a major TPA's letter as well as the personal COA it came with. The more confidence buyers have in the autograph, the more demand it will have. Everybody trusts different people, so I guess the more opinions you have the better it is. Especially if they are all pointing in the same direction

[Caseyatbat]

Yes I was referring to your prior post, sorry for the delayed response.

[alanu]

Dealer. If you bought a brand new vacuum at walmart and it was broken, who would you take it to?

[David W]

But I would expect a whole lot more than a considered opinion from someone who makes his living solely by making these opinions. If your doctor said it was his considered opinion you needed heart surgery, but wasn't absolutely sure, would that work for most people?

If a TPA is authenticating a 1927 Yankee ball, I want him to be 99.99% sure he is right, and I want him to stand by that opinion. Otherwise, his services are pretty much worthless.

I guess my point is this. Anyone can probably find a "Forensic Examiner" or whaterve the term is to "authenticate" or "unauthenticate" the same autograph.

So one stands by his opinion, while another says his opinion is wrong. There is really no way to prove 100% who is right. So short of legal action, I don't know how you can force someone to refund an autographed item.

And that is why I don't mess with autographs, unless I got them myself, or from someone I trust

[HRBAKER]

I would feel less comfortable buying an item with a PSA/DNA or JSA cert than from any of the gentlemen that Richard mentioned. What you are really referring to Casey is that the TPA COA makes the item more liquid in today's hobby that's all.

And again these authenticators have a sliding scale for their expertise based on the value of the item - that implies no expertise? They have the best of both worlds IMO, reap the benefits from implied expertise w/o any responsibility.

I agree with Barry, if I were making a living in this hobby and did not possess the personal expertise to operate w/o TPAs as the ones mentioned before I wouldn't touch an autograph.

[Fuddjcal]

I guess my point is this. Anyone can probably find a "Forensic Examiner" or whaterve the term is to "authenticate" or "unauthenticate" the same autograph.

So one stands by his opinion, while another says his opinion is wrong. There is really no way to prove 100% who is right. So short of legal action, I don't know how you can force someone to refund an autographed item.

And that is why I don't mess with autographs, unless I got them myself, or from someone I trust

The problem I have is, like you said David, it's the biggest & the best against little old, lowly Mantle collectors like me trying to get a refund. When I tried to discuss this Mickey Mantle autograph on another website (I did not purchase this, but it sold for $100.00 plus) that Todd Mueller sold at his on-line auction site last April.


I KNEW it was an easy to spot Mantle forgery, but he went on for 3 pages about "Providence" and how he knew Mantle & did signings with him, blah blah blah.

It doesn't change the fact that the item is a forgery. No one was going to make him refund that poor sap who bought this mess. So I don't put too much stock into guaranteeing in this business anyway. Can't even get the self proclaimed biggest dealer in America to shoot straight with Mickey Freaking Mantle...So I certainly see your point David.

I do wish Todd luck with his new endeavors. At least the guy is still trying to do something positive for the industry, though I hold out little or no hope that Moralless fakes will be everywhere on his new site that look just like this beauty below.

and yes, these third party guys and FDE's alike should hold up to a standard for their work. The fact that no one ever gets a refund for their lousy service is beyond me?

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff, yes that is what I was saying. It makes the items more liquid especially in the eyes of a dealer. But also I still believe third party authentication is a necessity. I believe what Richard said earlier was true about who he felt were reliable dealers. But in the end, they are dealers. Buyers wants authentication from a "third party" that does not actually own that particular item and trying to sell it. And they want it from whoever the biggest and best name is. Right now, we all know who those 2 companies are.

The best place to buy higher end autographs are from reliable dealers who specialize in this particular area that provide both their own COA guarantee and still use the top TPA's as well. There is really no reason why even the most knowledgeable dealer in the industry should not use a TPA as well as give their own guarantee. Their investment into the TPA always come back when the item is sold. Most Dealers even get a pretty substantial discount with TPA's which makes it even more worthwhile to use them.

[HRBAKER]

Yes but Casey they are involved in the transaction to some extent even though they do not buy and sell autographs per se. If they charge a sliding scale based on the secondary value of the item then to me they are participating in the market.

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff I can tell you from my personal experience as a dealer, that if one of my autographs is not authenticated by the top 2 companies, the buyers email and ask "Why is this autograph not authenticated by *SA? And then they ask, "Do you guarantee it to pass *SA?" And the conversation usually ends with, "they will only buy the item if it comes with *SA authentication".

So if you are a dealer selling valuable autographs, it is much easier to just go ahead to satisfy the buyer and provide proper TPA. Most of the time the buyers are also willing to pay more for that particular item if it has this type of authentication. And not many people are asking for authentication from the reliable dealer names that were mentioned previously. Just about every buyer is asking for the top 2 companies and thats it. And they are the buyer, so that really forces dealers into using them.

[RichardSimon]

Jeff I can tell you from my personal experience as a dealer, that if one of my autographs is not authenticated by the top 2 companies, the buyers email and ask "Why is this autograph not authenticated by *SA? And then they ask, "Do you guarantee it to pass *SA?" And the conversation usually ends with, "they will only buy the item if it comes with *SA authentication".

So if you are a dealer selling valuable autographs, it is much easier to just go ahead to satisfy the buyer and provide proper TPA. Most of the time the buyers are also willing to pay more for that particular item if it has this type of authentication. And not many people are asking for authentication from the reliable dealer names that were mentioned previously. Just about every buyer is asking for the top 2 companies and thats it. And they are the buyer, so that really forces dealers into using them.

I have probably been around longer than you Casey because the situation you describe happens to me only once or twice a year and it is usually from a new customer. I tell them I don't need TPA because I feel I know what I am doing.
In my ebay ads I state this:

If you see autographs on ebay with 3rd party authentication then you are paying for that authentication, whether you want it or not. The sellers are forcing you to pay for and accept the opinion of those companies. They will add the cost of authentication to the price of the item.
Established, reputable dealers who know their material don't need to use third party authenticators.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, again I completely agree with you. Established reputable dealers don't need to use TPA's. But why not use them as well and yes build it into the price? I am only talking about higher end autographs. If buying a Babe Ruth single signed ball, we also have to take account signature removals, enhancements, etc. TPA's use sophisticated machinery for this. These dealers you are speaking of I highly doubt are using this type of machinery to make sure an item is single signed or not somehow professionally enhanced.

So when dealing with higher end autographs, I want both the reliable dealers guarantee such as the ones you are speaking of, and also I want a second opinion from the top TPA available. That is how I offer to sell my items as well. I am confident enough to offer my own guarantee and also offer a top TPA as well just to satisfy whichever customers wants it. All it does is open the window to more potential customers.

[drc]

Duly note I said the dealer is responsible for refund, but never said TPAs get a pass. I specifically added that it can be fair and reasonable for the TPA to owe money for poor, irresponsible work. If you think PSA did an absolutely rancid and entirely insipid job in rendering a wholly ridiculous opinion and should pay the $$, feel free to pursue that avenue. Perhaps the judge will agree with you. Perhaps I will agree with you.

[RichardSimon]

Richard, again I completely agree with you. Established reputable dealers don't need to use TPA's. But why not use them as well and yes build it into the price? I am only talking about higher end autographs. If buying a Babe Ruth single signed ball, we also have to take account signature removals, enhancements, etc. TPA's use sophisticated machinery for this. These dealers you are speaking of I highly doubt are using this type of machinery to make sure an item is single signed or not somehow professionally enhanced.

So when dealing with higher end autographs, I want both the reliable dealers guarantee such as the ones you are speaking of, and also I want a second opinion from the top TPA available. That is how I offer to sell my items as well. I am confident enough to offer my own guarantee and also offer a top TPA as well just to satisfy whichever customers wants it. All it does is open the window to more potential customers.

Signature removals and enhancements are very easy to discern using a black light, which I use in all instances where I am buying or authenticating a baseball.
I am aware of the TPA's having certain equipment available to them, whether they actually use it or not, I don't know.

[drc]

I guess it comes down to that one shouldn't be selling items he can authenticate himself or be able to financially replace if it turns out not to be authentic.

As we all know PSA and JSA make mistakes, so I don't know why anyone here would see one of their letters as absolute guarantee of anything in a sale.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, I respect your opinion and know you have been around in the hobby for a long time. But just because you have been doing it longer than me, does not mean that my own experiences are not valid. I am stating a fact when I say that using a TPA allows me to sell to a wider range of buyers. There are many buyers out there that have deep pockets and love buying this type of stuff, many of them will not buy the higher end items without proper TPA.

Nobody can argue with the fact that TPA's allow dealers to sell to a wider range of people. What about the buyers that are not that knowledgeable in the hobby but still have lots of money to spend on expensive items. Good chances they have never heard of the reputable dealers you mentioned earlier. But there are good chances they have heard of the top TPA's. So it is not rocket science to know which one they are going to ask for.

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

[RichardSimon]

Richard, I respect your opinion and know you have been around in the hobby for a long time. But just because you have been doing it longer than me, does not mean that my own experiences are not valid. I am stating a fact when I say that using a TPA allows me to sell to a wider range of buyers. There are many buyers out there that have deep pockets and love buying this type of stuff, many of them will not buy the higher end items without proper TPA.

Nobody can argue with the fact that TPA's allow dealers to sell to a wider range of people. What about the buyers that are not that knowledgeable in the hobby but still have lots of money to spend on expensive items. Good chances they have never heard of the reputable dealers you mentioned earlier. But there are good chances they have heard of the top TPA's. So it is not rocket science to know which one they are going to ask for.

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

Casey,
I never meant to denigrate your experience, I wanted to show how it was different than mine.
How long has reputable diamond authentication been in the diamond business?
Has it led to non reputable authentication?
TPA in the autograph business has been around for about 10 years. The autograph business existed pretty well, obviously there were some problems, for about 100 years before TPA.
What I primarily object to is the buy the cert mentality over buy the autograph. The TPA do not bat 100%, they try to make it appear that they do, but we all know they do not.
The stories are going to continue to come out about things they have done and still do. These stories will change more collectors perceptions of the TPA companies.
This has been a good discourse and I am glad I started this thread.

[Caseyatbat]

Yes I like the thread as well! There is no question it is a hot topic that is not going to go away anytime soon. Believe me, it kills me to shovel thousands of dollars to TPA's every year. Especially when I am 100% confident that every item I am giving to them is authentic or I would not have bought it to begin with. But on the other hand, I also want to maximize the potential value of each item. And in my experiences, I have been able to do so much easier when I use a TPA as well as give my own personal Guarantee and COA. And the investment into TPA does come back to the dealer when the item is sold. So I really just don't see why a dealer wouldn't use one, the buyer is paying for it anyways. It attracts more buyers than without. And dealers like buyers...The more the better.

Also you mentioned this industry has survived for a long time without TPA's up until recently. I think that makes sense. Autograph forgeries were not that common until the early 90's. Of course there were some before, but since the 90's it has been a large-scale problem that only seems to be getting worse. And the forgeries never really go away either, we still have all of the original forgeries floating around the market as well as all of the newer forgeries as well being pumped out every day. They just keep piling up in the market. So I believe now more than ever TPA's are needed. And yes they are wrong from time to time, but in my experiences they are correct 99% of the time. Which are pretty good odds considering they are human.

[HRBAKER]

Casey,
I am enjoying this discussion as well. One conclusion that I have drawn and that I think is readily apparent is that the marketing efforts of these companies have been extremely successful. I have a question for you. If all these companies are doing is offering a non-interested third party "opinion" about whether a signature is genuine, why is their opinion more expensive the more valuable the autograph is? Or am I wrong about that? Thanks.

If all they are offering is an opinion then it seems that they are not incurring any risk associated with a guarantee.

[travrosty]

Believe me, it kills me to shovel thousands of dollars to TPA's every year. Especially when I am 100% confident that every item I am giving to them is authentic or I would not have bought it to begin with. But on the other hand, I also want to maximize the potential value of each item. And in my experiences, I have been able to do so much easier when I use a TPA as well as give my own personal Guarantee and COA. And the investment into TPA does come back to the dealer when the item is sold. So I really just don't see why a dealer wouldn't use one, the buyer is paying for it anyways. It attracts more buyers than without. And dealers like buyers...The more the better.



This is the biggest fallacy out there, it is simply not true. If it kills you to shovel thousands to TPA's, then don't do it. I don't do it, I sell just fine. So do lots of my friends. You will just get more serious bidders who look for quality items and know what they want and know a good autograph when they see one, rather than some guys who just buy the cert. The autographs still sell and for basically the same amount of money.

I have sold autographs that normally go for 420 dollars with tpa cert, for 400 without one, and the cert would have cost 75 dollars, so if I would have got the cert, I lose 55 dollars, but I can make it up in volume I guess. :)

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff, To answer your question, I don't believe they charge more for the value of an autograph. It is a pretty flat rate. An example would be 150 dollars for any team signed baseball with 18 or more signatures. But if the ball has big names such as Ruth, Gehrig etc. I believe they charge 250 dollars for the team ball. So more in that aspect I guess.

One of the problems with the price is I think it is too much of a flat rate. For instance a Mantle autograph is 100 dollars with PSA. That may be acceptable because the ball is going to sell for 500 dollars. But they also charge 100 dollars for a Mantle signed 8x10 photo which is horrible, authentic ones are selling for only 150 dollars on ebay even with the TPA full letter. So how is it possible they can charge 100 dollars to authenticate an item that is only selling for 150 dollars? In that aspect I wish it did actually fluctuate with the value of the item because maybe in this case to authenticate a Mantle 8x10 would only be about 25 dollars.

[thenavarro]

it kills me to shovel thousands of dollars to TPA's every year.


Casey,

I'm sure you probably already know this with the volume that you indicate that you do, but if you are giving PSA/DNA that much business, you shouldn't be paying full price. You might be getting discounts already, I have no way of knowing, but if not, just ask for them and it will save you some coin.

JSA will discount as well (not as aggressive as PSA/DNA though from my experience)

Take care,

Mike

[drc]

Okay. I stopped by my parents and my 76 year old dad was doing a jigsaw puzzle. He's never collected or sold. I asked him the big question of if a dealer sold an autograph that was given an LOA from some 'big authentication company,' and the autograph turned out to be a a forgery, who pays the refund? He said the dealer should pay, but he should in turn get some money from the authentication company.

[doug.goodman]

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

While this analogy seems sound on first glance, there is one sight difference between diamonds and autographs (I think) :

With a diamond, (I assume) there is a scientific way to determine if it is real, or fake. If my assumption is correct, the authenticator is dealing in facts.

With an autograph, we are dealing with opinions of authenticity, not facts. We can determine if the items involved in the autograph (paper, ink, pen style, angle of writing, pressures, etc) fit the usual known attributes, but we can not determine with absolute certainty whether (as an example) Walter Johnson signed his name to an item, and that he didn't have Joe Jackson sign for him.

Or am I missing something?
Doug

[drc]

A problem with this theory is the best dealers are sometimes more knowledgeable than the best authenticators. In a perhaps extreme example, the learned collector would value the seller Richard Simon's opinion over GAI's.

[Caseyatbat]

Hello Mike, Thank You very much for the advice. I do have the discount already. Although I wish it was more. But your right, PSA is a little more aggressive in this sense. I was surprised to see it wasn't the other way around! Thanks Mike.

[RichardSimon]

A problem with this theory is the best dealers are sometimes more knowledgeable than the best authenticators. In a perhaps extreme example, the learned collector would value the seller Richard Simon's opinion over GAI's.

I would certainly hope they would :p.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, your argument I only agree with when "buying" an item. Of course you don't need TPA's to buy an item if you know what you are doing. 99% of the items I buy are without TPA's or any type of certification whatsoever. I typically buy them with no guarantee, no COA, and also no clue who I am dealing with. I buy the autograph sole on the autograph itself. I usually don't even both listening to their provenance unless it sounds like an interesting story.

My argument is from a dealers point of view. When dealing with items that are worth over 1,000 dollars, I believe it is in the dealers best interest to use a major TPA. I want to prove to my buyers that there is nothing to hide. Not to mention that every major auction house (outside a few like lelands) makes it mandatory to have it. And to sell them on ebay it is highly recommended as well. If you take selling vintage autographs serious on ebay, you should use a top TPA. It is not mandatory like the major auction houses, but if one of your items is questioned, they flag your account if you don't have TPA. And if you get flagged 3 times, they suspend or cancel your account. Why would a dealer want to deal with that and take that risk? When they can just use the proper TPA and everybody is happy. Ebay is happy, the buyers are happy, and the dealer is happy that everybody is satisfied with their product.

And lastly, Most of these transactions are done through paypal. If people buy autographed items "without" TPA, many times they send them away to be authenticated after buying. If they come back as "no good" from the TPA, paypal allows them to return the item anyways within 45 days. So if the dealer has the proper TPA already, that is one less thing to worry about.

None of this is the fault of the TPA's. Rather, the auction houses, ebay & paypal have decided to use them as their leading authority. If people don't like that, they should really take it up with the auction houses, ebay & paypal.

[RichardSimon]

Richard, your argument I only agree with when "buying" an item. Of course you don't need TPA's to buy an item if you know what you are doing. 99% of the items I buy are without TPA's or any type of certification whatsoever. I typically buy them with no guarantee, no COA, and also no clue who I am dealing with. I buy the autograph sole on the autograph itself. I usually don't even both listening to their provenance unless it sounds like an interesting story.

My argument is from a dealers point of view. When dealing with items that are worth over 1,000 dollars, I believe it is in the dealers best interest to use a major TPA. I want to prove to my buyers that there is nothing to hide. Not to mention that every major auction house (outside a few like lelands) makes it mandatory to have it. And to sell them on ebay it is highly recommended as well. If you take selling vintage autographs serious on ebay, you should use a top TPA. It is not mandatory like the major auction houses, but if one of your items is questioned, they flag your account if you don't have TPA. And if you get flagged 3 times, they suspend or cancel your account. Why would a dealer want to deal with that and take that risk? When they can just use the proper TPA and everybody is happy. Ebay is happy, the buyers are happy, and the dealer is happy that everybody is satisfied with their product.

And lastly, Most of these transactions are done through paypal. If people buy autographed items "without" TPA, many times they send them away to be authenticated after buying. If they come back as "no good" from the TPA, paypal allows them to return the item anyways within 45 days. So if the dealer has the proper TPA already, that is one less thing to worry about.

None of this is the fault of the TPA's. Rather, the auction houses, ebay & paypal have decided to use them as their leading authority. If people don't like that, they should really take it up with the auction houses, ebay & paypal.

Casey - points well taken but also some disagreed with and a couple of TPA stories.
It is not mandatory for the consignor to consign an item with a TPA cert,the auction house is responsible for the TPA auction cert (don't get me started on auction certs and that scam).
I have many customers who have been buying from me for many, many years.
They don't bother spending the money, even on high ticket items, on TPA.
I had a $15 Burgess Meredith (the actor) autograph returned once that I sold on ebay. It came from one of the best in person collections I ever bought. The buyer admitted to me he knew it was good but he was a dealer and he could not resell it without TPA.
I had two rejections of Babe Ruth in person autographs from PSA. One was then sent by my customer, to Lelands, (I would take their authentication over any TPA) who immediately thanked him for the consignment, and sold it. The other one came from the same collection and the dealer I sold it to would not return it to me because he too knew it was good despite having it rejected by PSA. He sent it to them for the reasons you bring out in your post (marketing) but knew it was good and kept it, despite their rejection.
The next few stories to come out from Halls of Shame are going to be eye popping and will dissuade many who are on the fence about TPA's.

[drc]

How about this working theory. PSA and JSA are 85 percent correct (example percentage, don't take the number too seriously), which means a PSA letter says there's a 85% chance the item is authentic. If potential buyers say a LOA on eBay as saying there was an 85% chance, and not 100% guarantee, the autograph is authentic, they'd say "That LOA gives good odds, but I should look into thing further to bridge the gap." Looking into it further may include getting other opinions, educating themselves, looking at who is the seller and perhaps even spend accordingly less money. They will also realize that if they go strictly by LOAs, they will be buying fakes from time to time, because 85% isn't 100%. The significance will sink in further when they realize the TPA's aren't 100% accurate and don't give refunds for the autographs.

[Caseyatbat]

I think what you are looking for is dealer that guarantees his items 100%. Which is what I mentioned somewhere previously in this thread. That is exactly how I offer my items for sale. First I issue my own COA which guarantees the autograph authentic for life or your money back. And then I also provide a major TPA full letter of authenticity with it as well. So the buyers can have the best of both worlds. A buyer can't really ask for more than that. There isn't anymore to give.

[RichardSimon]

How about this working theory. PSA and JSA are 85 percent correct (example percentage, don't take the number too seriously), which means a PSA letter says there's a 85% chance the item is authentic. If potential buyers say a LOA on eBay as saying there was an 85% chance, and not 100% guarantee, the autograph is authentic, they'd say "That LOA gives good odds, but I should look into thing further to bridge the gap." Looking into it further may include getting other opinions, educating themselves, looking at who is the seller and perhaps even spend accordingly less money. They will also realize that if they go strictly by LOAs, they will be buying fakes from time to time, because 85% isn't 100%. The significance will sink in further when they realize the TPA's aren't 100% accurate and don't give refunds for the autographs.

+1

[GrayGhost]

David, good thought, but people just want the hundred pct certainty overall, even if it is nearly/is impossible.

Again, the OPINIONS are always listed by the authenticators. NOTHING is certain at all. This area of the hobby, tho fascinating, is fraught w risk and fraud, and great stuff too. Tread lightly, and watch out for exploding landmines.

[tinkereversandme]

I would like to the authenticator be held responsible because if this happen, about ten of them would close up shop.

Larry

[RichardSimon]

Larry -you are tempting me to switch my vote when you put it that way. :D

[drc]

Irrelevant to TPAs, I think it's good for the hobby for sellers to feel they are financially responsible for the authenticity of the things they sale. We're in trouble when dealers feel authenticity is someone else's concern.

Duly note that in this thread I haven't considered graded cards, and all those tagged plastic entombments. I know many sellers from here don't allow returns on graded cards and say 'take your grade dispute up with the grader.' One can of worms at a time.

[travrosty]

That's the conundrum. The biggest third party companies give the sense of invinciblity to an autograph, so sellers dont have to be knowledgable dealers or collectors. they can pawn off authenticity on the fact that it has been certed by abc, xyz. thus relegating themselves to little more than distributors of product, middlemen.

The biggest companies need to give guarantees to their authentications, that will hold their feet to the fire to not authenticate too fast, using people who are trying to authenticate out of their specialty.

A guarantee is the only way to use feedback and statistics as to how much they are refunding every quarter as a motivator to change their policies and procedures on how they authenticate to improve their bottom line.

Captialism is about the bottom line, and even though you would think they would want to get better at authenticating due to altruistic reasons, it is the almight dollar that motives.

The absence of a dollar motivator has brought about the anemic performances we are used to seeing. They authenticate that way because they can, they do and they get away with it without any monetary loss.

They have no incentive to offer a guarantee unless someone else introduces it first as a wedge issue to separate their company from the companies who do it now without a guarantee.

If it ever happens, the others will have to follow or suffer customer migration to those that do offer a guarantee.

You would think if they were truly as great at authenticating as they claim, a guarantee would bring in an increase in business over their competitors to more than pay for any refunds they would have to give out every quarter.

But they don't see it that way because if the other companies offer a guarantee too, then they are back to no competitive advantage to offering a guarantee, and are only on the hook for the guarantee and no one wants to start that arms race.

[Bilko G]

Yes they make mistakes, but they are only human and in my experiences are right on the money 99% of the time.


Casey, the quote above, i noticed you have mentioned it on 3 different occasions in this thread, so it must be something that you truly stand behind. So i was just curious, how you know "in your experiences" they are roght on the money 99% of the time? There is no way you can say this, unless of course everything you are submitting is all in-person, signed right in front of your very eyes.

[RichardSimon]

Casey, the quote above, i noticed you have mentioned it on 3 different occasions in this thread, so it must be something that you truly stand behind. So i was just curious, how you know "in your experiences" they are roght on the money 99% of the time? There is no way you can say this, unless of course everything you are submitting is all in-person, signed right in front of your very eyes.

Casey - this thread is turning into just what I hoped it would. A good healthy debate.
However, I have to agree with Bilko questioning the 99% number. If pressed I would think that even the alphabet soup guys would not condede that they are that good. Obviously, they have never come on 54 to explain what they have done, so we will probably never know what they would claim for themselves.

[mighty bombjack]

Casey, the quote above, i noticed you have mentioned it on 3 different occasions in this thread, so it must be something that you truly stand behind. So i was just curious, how you know "in your experiences" they are roght on the money 99% of the time? There is no way you can say this, unless of course everything you are submitting is all in-person, signed right in front of your very eyes.

But this, in turn, brings up the question of how many authenticated autos have been proven, after the fact, to be inauthentic? I mean iron clad proof, not just another opinion? It happens, but is very rare. Much less than 99 percent of the top authenticators' examples.

Every company should invalidate it's authenticity marker and refund the price of authentication if something can be proven bunk. But if it sold for 20k, how can the company be on the line for that? As someone mentioned at the onset of this thread, these are not insurers we are discussing.

[mschwade]

Here's, I think, a legitimate question... How many times do you think a TPA wavers on whether an autograph is real or not and gives an authentic opinion based on the reputation of the submitter or the dealer that the submitter purchased from?

I would like to see a TPA held somewhat responsible for giving an authentic opinion so they're less likely to deem something that they are up in the air on authentic based on anything other than the autograph itself.

If they're held somewhat responsible, they'll be forced to be even more thorough in their process, as well. That should make for a more comfortable market for buyers.

[RichardSimon]

Here's, I think, a legitimate question... How many times do you think a TPA wavers on whether an autograph is real or not and gives an authentic opinion based on the reputation of the submitter or the dealer that the submitter purchased from?

I would like to see a TPA held somewhat responsible for giving an authentic opinion so they're less likely to deem something that they are up in the air on authentic based on anything other than the autograph itself.

If they're held somewhat responsible, they'll be forced to be even more thorough in their process, as well. That should make for a more comfortable market for buyers.

Do the TPA's actually know where an autograph came from when it is submitted?
My authentication business is small and I never want to know where an autograph came from when it is submitted to me for authentication. My main business is still buying and selling.
Though I want to repeat a statement from another post I made. I was asked, in another thread, if pressure was ever applied to me by an auction house. Yes pressure was put on myself and the crew I worked with by American Memorabilia.
That was one of the reasons we stopped working for them.
Is pressure applied by other auction houses, or dealers, to authenticators? I don't know the answer to that question except for my own experience. I did work for other smaller auction houses and pressure was never applied.
In light of recent stories on the net, I could start another poll and ask "do you think auction houses put pressure on authenticators to ok high ticket items?"

[thecatspajamas]

That's the conundrum. The biggest third party companies give the sense of invinciblity to an autograph, so sellers dont have to be knowledgable dealers or collectors. they can pawn off authenticity on the fact that it has been certed by abc, xyz. thus relegating themselves to little more than distributors of product, middlemen.

The biggest companies need to give guarantees to their authentications, that will hold their feet to the fire to not authenticate too fast, using people who are trying to authenticate out of their specialty.

A guarantee is the only way to use feedback and statistics as to how much they are refunding every quarter as a motivator to change their policies and procedures on how they authenticate to improve their bottom line.

Captialism is about the bottom line, and even though you would think they would want to get better at authenticating due to altruistic reasons, it is the almight dollar that motives.

The absence of a dollar motivator has brought about the anemic performances we are used to seeing. They authenticate that way because they can, they do and they get away with it without any monetary loss.

They have no incentive to offer a guarantee unless someone else introduces it first as a wedge issue to separate their company from the companies who do it now without a guarantee.

If it ever happens, the others will have to follow or suffer customer migration to those that do offer a guarantee.

You would think if they were truly as great at authenticating as they claim, a guarantee would bring in an increase in business over their competitors to more than pay for any refunds they would have to give out every quarter.

But they don't see it that way because if the other companies offer a guarantee too, then they are back to no competitive advantage to offering a guarantee, and are only on the hook for the guarantee and no one wants to start that arms race.

Travis, thank you for a well-reasoned post and suggestion on a way to mend the current system. I've grown accustomed to your tear-it-all-down-and-start-over type rants, and was expecting as much here, but was pleasantly surprised. I don't mean that to say that your other posts were wrong, but rather that I personally enjoy constructive suggestions more. Thanks!

[Caseyatbat]

Bilko, Of course when I say that, it is my opinion. And I mentioned 99%, Which may not reflect the exact percentage, but I thought it would be good number to reflect my opinion that they are correct in their findings just about every time. Obviously there are always exceptions.

You asked "how did I come to this conclusion?" I have come to this conclusion after submitting many many items to them, and then also researching tens of thousands of previously authenticated and sold items over the past 10 years. And comparing my own conclusions to theirs. It is my job to do so.

I believe their is a common misconception about TPA's. I think the 2 major TPA's will fail any item they are not extremely confident in. I believe they would rather fail the item, than risk putting their name on it and have it draw negative attention later. So consequently, they are failing items that may very well be authentic. They just were not comfortable enough to put their name on it. And I believe they are correct in doing so when that happens, if they passed the questionable item it usually results in people going online and making a huge stink about it. So I think for the most part, people are upset about them not passing items, rather than actually passing items. This does not include "Auction letters", I agree with Richard and think are a huge gimmick. Many auction houses list their items with "Auction Letters" before they are even looked at and then later remove the item because it finally got looked at and was no good.