T206 Speaker NO RED in Goodwin

[danmckee]

Now I can read the BOSTON on the shirt but it is light. The funny thing is that the red stripe on the hat is vivid! This is the 3rd one of these I have seen! A board member brought one to me at the last National.

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=21573

I have one in my ebay store:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Tobacco-Speaker-NO-BOSTON-shirt-SGC-/370468795510?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item5641a93476

And no I am not outing my own sale!!


My point is that since 3 Speaker exist with vivid red stripes on the hat and light or no BOSTON on the shirt, that maybe the red ink printing was done with 2 separate runs? Just a thought, I find it interesting. Dan.

[wonkaticket]

Is kinda cool Dan, I agree. be careful showing your auction to that card remember there is an angry eBay guy who was going to out you on these boards! :)

John

[danmckee]

That dude cracks me up! I am still waiting for his post. He also threatened to oust me on the T206 Museum website.

Now that one made me shiver!

[Runscott]

That dude cracks me up! I am still waiting for his post. He also threatened to oust me on the T206 Museum website.

Now that one made me shiver!

Maybe he should have threatened to oust you TO the T206 Museum website.

I'm working on a new website called: T206Hell.com - non-T206 collectors who are bad on this forum will be forced to post there for one week

(deal in the works with Leon, but I haven't told him yet)

[danmckee]

That is priceless Scott!

[Runscott]

So a serious question: regarding all these 'missing red ink' Boston cards, have you ever seen one that was really missing the entire 'Boston' logo, or the entire red 'B' ? I've only seen ones with faint remnants.

[danmckee]

oh yes! I have a few where it is completely missing. I have 3 Sweeneys and a few of the other Boston players. Dan

[sb1]

We'll have a Peaches Graham in our next auction with absolutely no red at all, among other various T206 oddities.

[MVSNYC]

I've owned a Sweeney & a Niles with absolutely no red whatsoever.

[danmckee]

We'll have a Peaches Graham in our next auction with absolutely no red at all, among other various T206 oddities.

Next auction? Who are you my friend and what is your auction house?

[Ease]

B&L Auctions (http://www.b-lauctions.com/)

[t206blogcom]

I have a Dahlen missing B that Dan sold to me via a negotiated eBay deal:

http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/t206-Dahlen-Missing-B.jpg

[fkw]

Ive had 3 of them (all years ago before these misprints took off), they are not rare. I never paid more than say 125% of their normal value for them (very small premium if any)

all the ones I had, had the hat stripe the same as the uniform.... either missing completely or barely visible (like the example below).

Maybe someone is bleaching out the uniforms on these now???


this is the only one I still have an image of (lost many images on my old computer meltdown)

http://centuryoldcards.com/images/1909t206speakernored.jpg

[caramelcard]

Yeah, I don't really understand how just the uniform is missing the red...

[sox1903wschamp]

Yeah, I don't really understand how just the uniform is missing the red...

+1

[eb548]

Agreed with the confusion on how this happened. Not exactly sure how the error occurred but I think that's what makes the card so cool coupled with the fact that it's speaker. I have only seen one other like it. There was someone at the national last year who had it at a table and told me he never saw another example like it previously. Rare or not rare it's a great card!

[danmckee]

The fact that there are 3 of them and none related from where they originated leads me to believe they are legit.

I think you got ripped off on that Dahlen, I would return it for a refund immediately!

Dan

[t206blogcom]

Dan - You sold it to me. Are you saying you ripped me off?


I think you got ripped off on that Dahlen, I would return it for a refund immediately!

Dan

[iggyman]

Since a can of worms has been opened and it's kind of slow here at the corporate level. The fact that the Dahlen is missing the color red (or faded), is most certainly due to exposure to light/vapors/chemicals as opposed to something done at the factory. Since it cannot be determined with 100% accuracy whether this statement is actually true, it unfortunately renders the value of the card at the level of a normal beater T206 Dahlen (without any sort of a premium added).

On the other hand, the T206 Speaker "partial missing red" looks cool and probably deserves a small premium (since, in my mind it could conceivably happen at the factory level). However, the missing red could also have been caused by exposure to light/vapors/chemicals/ or even doctors. The fact that at least three cards are known to exist, doesn't add that much credibility, since all three cards could have certainly been together in someones shed from the Roosevelt through Reagan years or worst yet, had been together in Pat Chan's museum.

Lovely Day...

[danmckee]

To whoever is telling Jason that Dahlen has been altered, please feel free to write me directly. I got a group of T206s that had about 6 cards missing the red and I actually got 2 Dahlen's in there. Hence I sold the extra to Jason. Now some self proclaimed expert is telling him it was altered??

Email me directly expert and I will send you the scans of the others.

For what I paid for the group, if someone altered them, they didn't reap any benefits from the alterations.

Dan Mckee

P.S. and for those of you who know me, you would know I was joking when I stated he was ripped off and to return it immediately, fully knowing I sold it to him.

This board is amazing!

[danmckee]

Since a can of worms has been opened and it's kind of slow here at the corporate level. The fact that the Dahlen is missing the color red (or faded), is most certainly due to exposure to light/vapors/chemicals as opposed to something done at the factory. Since it cannot be determined with 100% accuracy whether this statement is actually true, it unfortunately renders the value of the card at the level of a normal beater T206 Dahlen (without any sort of a premium added).

On the other hand, the T206 Speaker "partial missing red" looks cool and probably deserves a small premium (since, in my mind it could conceivably happen at the factory level). However, the missing red could also have been caused by exposure to light/vapors/chemicals/ or even doctors. The fact that at least three cards are known to exist, doesn't add that much credibility, since all three cards could have certainly been together in someones shed from the Roosevelt through Reagan years or worst yet, had been together in Pat Chan's museum.

Lovely Day...

If the Dahlen was altered, the spot where the B should have been would be affected. Hence you can still see the dot patteren applied there. No alteration has been done to this card and it was acquired in a group where no premium was assessed and it wasn't from a baseball card guy.

But I appreciate your expert advice though wrong in this case.

Thanks.

[Runscott]

removed.

Not aimed at you Dan, but the hypocrisy is wearing me out.

[wonkaticket]

Dan - You sold it to me. Are you saying you ripped me off?

Dan was joking I'm sure. Next time insert a smiley Dan not everyone here knows you’re a sarcastic mean ol’ drunk of a collector. :) (See you can say anything with a smiley behind it)

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/websize/niles.jpg

As for the card your Dahlen I see no real issues or red lights. The area like Dan said doesn't seem to be affected you can still see the faint area of the "B" in most of these there is always a faint trace but some have none. In summary I think the Dahlen is fine at a glance and the seller is a top notch guy that I would vouch for any day.

As for the masterminds and forgeries I think folks like Iggy watch too much CSI and Oceans Eleven and end up giving these guys way too much credit or talking a bit to SciFi in theory. The facts are Chan was nothing more than d-bag in a his little house who ordered a rubber stamp from stamps.com and took advantage of something so simple….collector passion. Every collector suffers from this they want something rare for a deal and when it’s found or in hand they want to believe and logic goes out the window. What was brilliant about Chan and most of these fakes are not the complexity of the forgeries but the simplicity and the fact that it is so easily missed in hobby filled with skeptics.

In the end Chan had about as much in the way of master forger skills as my next door neighbor’s kid. She also plays with stamps just from her would have had to believe the Dora overprint T206. Heck even all the stuff Kevin S use to show on here was very Showtime at the Apollo IMO.

As for the re-back guys like Moser once again most of those are easy to spot however if they have made it into graded cases well now that makes it harder. If it were me and I was looking at a super tough back star card or impossible combo in a holder I would ask to crack inspect and then re-holder at the grading company prior to me putting out cash.

Cheers,

John

[iggyman]

John,

You are right, I gave Chan way too much credit, my T206 museum statement was meant more as a bad attempt at humor. Nothing more, you can take your shots at me if you like, I've always been a big admirer of your wit. I'm not implying that card doctors are making the color red disappear, but the reality is that the color red on T206 cards can fade. Thus, if that is a true statement, it makes all these cards irrelevant, no matter how many cool orange background cards Ted Z might show. Here is a classic example of a red background card that was probably exposed to light.

53869

Perhaps it came out of the factory that way, but in reality the color red faded except in the upper right corner. Now, did cards come out of the factory with orange background or missing red.............of course! Can the run of the mill T206 collector tell the difference between a "factory" created or "faded" missing red??? Nope, and I'm sure most DNA certified T206 experts couldn't either!

Lovely Day...

[wonkaticket]

Iggy, I wasn't taking shots at you just saying I thought folks gave a lot of these guys way to much credit in terms of doctored cards. I lumped you in sorry if I offended you.

I also agree many can be exposure vs. at time of production but the Dahlen looked ok to me no real super red flags.

As for the color red fading due to exposure I think that having a color like red only fade and green, yellow, blue etc. not also be affected would be tough to explain so I don’t follow you there. But I'm happy to learn and would like to if you can explain how just red is effected by exposure.

In the end I just don’t see some super lab with a mad scientist with a special brew of chemicals knocking out certain colors and then selling commons and beaters for $300 vs. $20. Seems like a lot of work and a lot of expertise for such a little return…Kevin S tried to show that he could do it never saw one card he worked that looked legit. I also think if it was so easy you would see these everywhere sort of like trimmed cards and reprints no shortage of those.

Now re-backing and overprints….well…that’s another story money to be had there for sure if you’re a dirty clown.

Cheers,

John

P.S. That Cobb still has quite a bit of red in his cheeks FWIW, I think many of these are nothing more than print oddities. For gods sake you should see what my laser printer and ink jets at the office do when they get low on one color. :) So I think a lot of stuff left these factories wacky I know it did. I used to toss back these cards in deals saying they were ugly back in the day ughhh. It really just depends if you want to pay extra for these or not IMO.

[Mikehealer]

Iggy, in the Cobb you posted how come the rest of the card isn't faded? I don't really understand how just the background is faded and the rest of the card looks "normal". I'm just curious.
Thanks
Mike

[Runscott]

In the end I just don’t see some super lab with a mad scientist with a special brew of chemicals knocking out certain colors and then selling commons and beaters for $300 vs. $20. Seems like a lot of work and a lot of expertise for such a little return…Kevin S tried to show that he could do it never saw one card he worked that looked legit. I also think if it was so easy you would see these everywhere sort of like trimmed cards and reprints no shortage of those.


John, that doesn't stop people from working on such projects - for example, there are plenty of hackers who don't make a dime, but just do it for fun. I could see someone trying to create red-less Speaker cards with chemicals (if it's even possible), just for grins and to stump people like us. Now that you've said Kevin couldn't succeed at doing it, you might have encouraged one of these 'mad scientists' to get out his chemistry kit again.

[atx840]

The Cobb was auctioned as faded.

"The Hall of Famer’s face retains its customarily vigorous hues but – apparently through the use of photo-corner mounts and in consideration of certain shades fading at differing rates – long-ago display measures resulted in a “new” background hue (a taste of the original is still evident at the top-right corner)"

[fkw]

not all of them are faded (maybe a small % are), the fade would affect more than only the background or only the red uniform ink

http://centuryoldcards.com/images/t206cobborange.jpg

http://centuryoldcards.com/images/1909t206kelleybr1.jpg
this was in a scrapbook for much of its life, it didnt fade. The normal red only shows on the very bottom (low ink in lithograph process is my understanding)

[mkdltn]

Some colors are more lightfast or fugitive than others. Today art materials carry a rating for how well they stand up to prolonged exposure to light. Lithographers back then were very mindfull of how lightfast or fugitive an ink was but exceptions were made.

[iggyman]

Iggy, in the Cobb you posted how come the rest of the card isn't faded? I don't really understand how just the background is faded and the rest of the card looks "normal". I'm just curious.
Thanks
Mike

Mike,

I'm just a recreational weekend softball player, so I'm way out of my league here and won't be able to intelligently answer your question. But at the end of the day, this is what I know to be true; the red color pigment used on T206 cards is more sensitive to ultraviolet light then the other colors. Thus, the other colors will eventually fade, but red will go first and at a much faster rate. That is the bottom line.

Lovely Day...

[iggyman]

John,

No offense taken, actually I consider it a badge of honor that you actually referenced me in a post. I took out my handy loupe and started looking at my T206 Red Cobb and the bold red that you see in the background is on his lips, by his ears, and a small smidgen by his eyes, but his cheeks are a different shade of red. Thus, the pigmentation is different which would then affect the fading. If the red used on his cheeks were on the background, then the background color would not have faded so badly. I've attached a picture; notice the red on his lips. eyes, and ears are the same as in the background, yet the red on his cheeks is a different shade. I sure wish one of the printer guys would chime-in!

53912

Red will almost ALWAYS fade first, it happened on the Star-Spangled Banner and it happens on T206 cards. Here is a short article about fading: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/charters/fading.html


Lovely Day...

[t206blogcom]

P.S. and for those of you who know me, you would know I was joking when I stated he was ripped off and to return it immediately, fully knowing I sold it to him.

Dan - I didn't realize you were joking; sorry that it set off a firestorm. This Dahlen is one of my favorite cards and I get upset when people claim it's fake. And for the record, our transaction was pleasant and I have no problems with it. :)

Jason

[Jaybird]

I agree about red fading first. I know this is anecdotal but whenever I've found an old beer can or other piece of packaging out in the woods while hiking, I can always read the lettering but the color is gone. Pabst beer cans, etc. So obviously different colors fade at different rates.

Talk to a tattoo artist and they will tell you about pigments as well and which colors fade the most (red) and are subject to the suns effects. Black and blue and purple are some of the more steadfast colors.


edited to add: Just read the article linked by Iggyman and it basically says the same thing. Living out in Southern California, you can see it in a red car of the same age as a blue car as well. Much more faded. again, anecdotal but backed by science.

[wonkaticket]

Iggy,

Iggy I think you and I agree on this but you’re missing my point and you think I’m disagreeing with yours. I’ve seen the banner project in person the blue is faded as well not just the red. My point was to isolate just “red” overtime isn’t going to happen easily red may be faster and first to go but others will show loss too. I agree the loss may not be as dramatic but it’s there if you look.

I do not doubt or disagree with your point that colors on paper or other surfaces will fade when exposed to sunlight over time even artificial light 100% true. But other colors present will also fade and show some pigment loss as well not just red while others stay crisp and vibrant. My initial comments were in regards to the Dahlen above which is very vibrant based upon the scan minus the B at least to my 36 year old eyes.

Red is no doubt a color that is highly sensitive to light hence why so little of Egypt’s art is found outside of sealed tombs due to the Egyptian love of the pigment red ochre as well as the pigments themselves. A lot of this loss has many factors that will also help speed up or slow down the process…sorry if this is boring if you can’t tell I grew up in an art family…LOL

• Exposure
• Storage where was it stored how was it stored etc.
• Environment where was it found, climate etc.
• Substrate applied too i.e. wood, paper type, fabric type, metal type
• Substrate chemical makeup where chemicals used in the base material prior to production that would cause rapid decay
• Materials used i.e. chemical, organic dyes & pigments
• Finishing materials lacquers etc.
• Early preservation attempts did someone early on in a pieces life attempt to save and do more harm than good etc.
• Many more……

I will even help Iggy illustrate what he’s talking about. A great example of what Iggy is talking about in regards to direct exposure can be seen here.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=41515

These cards were no doubt stored in direct sunlight for quite some time. I have no doubt we are going to see quite a few of these hit the market very soon (depending on winner) as missing colors or scraps so guys take note. All sorts of oddities in this caused by the environment, exposure, glue used, paper its mounted too etc.

For me a rule of thumb I follow on these cards is I never pay huge premiums to begin with; the card has to be as vibrant next to a regular version of itself minus the missing color pass etc. Meaning if you’re selling a no red and the blue/blacks/browns or facial color is about 2 shades lighter than another regular card I tend to pass as it could just be sunlight and exposure at play.

Back to the Huggins & Scott lot. Funny thing to note and where Iggy may be onto something neat regarding T206 is notice the E95 Cicotte red as the devil yet the Wagner is missing his stripe in his hat but also note the fully washed out hands, bat & lighter blue background etc i.e. sunlight. So you cant chalk up all missing color Wagners to sunlight exposure not just saying that because I own one either. :)

I would also like to add this does not take away from true print defects and they are out there. So not everything is and can be chalked up to exposure to light but some can.

But a neat question here is why did the T206’s and few others red fade away and the E95 stay relatively bright? Lots of reasons for this and interesting to take note I think. Talk amongst yourselves.

This stuff is fun these are the kind of discussions and debates that make the hobby great and lead to learning neat new stuff.

Cheers,

John

P.S. This does now prove that all Red Sun T211 and T210 Red Border cards and any T206 with red in it are ticking time bombs that will be worthless in months due to red going away I suggest you sell them to Iggy and I for .25 on the dollar. :)

[steve B]

Maybe the E95s used cochineal pigmented inks while T206 used a synthetic pigment or an inferior natural colorant?

Finished reading a whole book about cochineal and history of red pigments/dyes a few months ago. Fascinating stuff.

Steve B