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View Full Version : Chemicals changed this color, it is not a scrap


danmckee
01-10-2012, 10:19 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-scrap-color-separation-proof-BILL-DAHLEN-rare-pre-war-baseball-card-/270889962829?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item3f124ccd4d

Matthew H
01-10-2012, 10:27 AM
It's the rare fallout variation!

rp12367
01-10-2012, 10:28 AM
Thanks Dan, I was the current high bidder. I was going to post question later today to see if it was legit, I didn't think so, so my bid wasn't much, but I have since cancelled my bid.:) Saw it this morning on my phone while at work so I couldn't zoom in on pic too good.

atx840
01-10-2012, 12:36 PM
This was listed at a BIN for $350, glad I passed before as Johnny confirmed my suspicion that this is done after the factory through some sort of environmental condition.

Dan, do you think this was part of the same group as the Brown and Bender missing colour with writing, I have scans but not sure if they should be put out there?

t206blogcom
01-10-2012, 12:50 PM
How can you tell it's been chemically altered?

danmckee
01-10-2012, 01:42 PM
I don't know how to explain that except that there is a "spill" stain like, possibly from the glue that was used on back. I have a few of these Frankensteins in my collection.

Also, a true printing freak would have discoloration in the face as well and not just around it.

It is hard to explain, maybe one of the T206 guru's can explain this better.

I think we have more experts on this board than anywhere else.

Also, I am not sure if this is from the same crop as the other 2 you mentioned, I have seen this type of staining for about 15 years now.

Dan

atx840
01-10-2012, 02:21 PM
A few of the known ones out there.

http://i.imgur.com/ps9dC.jpg

drc
01-10-2012, 02:57 PM
Lithographic ink doesn't dissolve in water, but does in some around the house/garage chemicals.

mrvster
01-10-2012, 09:56 PM
Thanks Chris!!
you are becoming very good, very fast.:), your avatar was well earned, and i'm jealous:)....took me a few years.....thanks for posting those other cards, they are as bad as the one listed....
the time you've been on the scene has made collecting to me fun again:D

Dan, thanks for posting.....and steve for chiming in.....absolutely not scrap....all the cards where affected by some type of solvent/chemical...

when i first saw the auction, i was excited at the title, then like a bad clam, dissapointed once i opened it;)

peace

johnny

btw dan,

SHOW US SOME REAL ONES!!:)

t206blogcom
01-12-2012, 08:00 PM
Anyone else surprised this went for $58?

atx840
01-12-2012, 08:05 PM
Why would someone buy this?Hopefully it does not end up at a bigger auction house.

milkit1
01-12-2012, 08:26 PM
well I am the dope that bought this card. Thats what i get for not following the forum today lol. Looked like scrap material to me. I got this killer Dahlen pic and was wanting something special to mat with it. Do you think I could file soemthing with ebay about finding out its not a scrap, like item not as described or whatever?

53818

Leon
01-12-2012, 08:27 PM
Why would someone buy this?


Because they didn't know and don't read the board?

mrvster
01-12-2012, 10:11 PM
Sean,

Don't beat urself up......we all make mistakes.....at least you didn't dump like $500.00 beans on it.....:)

I would ask seller for refund, or just don't pay.......is the money worth a negative??up to you.....seller hopefully will make good, i always try to see the good in people...but honest mistake dude....

Peace

John ny

Leon
01-12-2012, 11:23 PM
Sean
No big deal. Tell the seller it's not as advertised and kindly request a refund. Be very nice. If they they say they won't refund you, file with ebay and there is almost a 100% chance you will get your money back. It's not as advertised. Not a big deal and maybe they didn't know either....best regards

milkit1
01-12-2012, 11:47 PM
yeah thats what i am going to try. I've never had any inclination towards collecting scraps but have been looking for a Dahlen for some time now. I saw the card for the first time this morning on my phone and placed a snipe never dreaming Id actually get it since $60 for a genuine scrap would be a darn good deal. Maybe I can talk the seller in to $20 cause its still a pretty crazy looking card :)

Sterling Sports Auctions
01-14-2012, 06:57 PM
I think a good rule of thumb for a color variation, especially if there is more then one change, check the back for glue. Some of that glue just bled through the card to the front and messed up the colors.

I have owned probably a half a dozen over the years.

Lee

Runscott
01-14-2012, 09:43 PM
Sean
No big deal. Tell the seller it's not as advertised and kindly request a refund. Be very nice. If they they say they won't refund you, file with ebay and there is almost a 100% chance you will get your money back. It's not as advertised. Not a big deal and maybe they didn't know either....best regards

Leon, I think you would be wrong about the outcome. The scans are very clear and the end price was very low, indicating that plenty of people realized that when the seller said it "appears to be scrap", he was incorrect. Besides, how are you going to argue with ebay what 'scrap' actually is? People on this board can't even agree.

iggyman
01-15-2012, 05:37 PM
Hopefully, we have all learned that this is NOT a missing color T206 Bates and it did NOT originate at the factory this way and it's definitely NOT printer scrap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-JOHNNY-BATES-RARE-COLOR-MISSING-VARIATON-/220933725186

As you were.

Lovely Day...

atx840
01-15-2012, 05:41 PM
Just about to post this, the 8th example I've seen, must have been the glue or solvent used to remove them.

Leon
01-15-2012, 08:01 PM
Leon, I think you would be wrong about the outcome. The scans are very clear and the end price was very low, indicating that plenty of people realized that when the seller said it "appears to be scrap", he was incorrect. Besides, how are you going to argue with ebay what 'scrap' actually is? People on this board can't even agree.

I got a refund yesterday from an issue similar to this (not exactly). The guy's terms had "no refunds, sold as is" too. But you could be right.....BTW, a chemically altered card wouldn't be considered printers scrap in my opinion.

Runscott
01-15-2012, 09:03 PM
BTW, a chemically altered card wouldn't be considered printers scrap in my opinion.

Were you thinking that chemicals were applied at the factory as some sort of test? That's not anything I really think would have happened, but I guess it's possible - I have been proven wrong often enough that I wouldn't toss out any theory.

jimonym
01-15-2012, 09:49 PM
Mastro once sold an album full of similar-looking cards (album full = >500). They attributed the color changes to "moisture", but if you look at the picture, I think a good guess was it was an effect of the glue used.

http://www.jimonym.com/mastro.jpeg

It was Lot # 503 in their April 2002 auction.

Runscott
01-15-2012, 09:54 PM
Mastro once sold an album full of similar-looking cards (album full = >500). They attributed the color changes to "moisture", but if you look at the picture, I think a good guess was it was an effect of the glue used.

http://www.jimonym.com/mastro.jpeg

It was Lot # 503 in their April 2002 auction.

These look a lot different from some of the ones that people here are saying were caused by chemicals/glue.

For instance, the Bates on ebay is clearly only missing the blue in the background - the chemicals or glue had no effect on any other color. Not saying this doesn't make perfect sense, but it's odd how these chemicals/glue resulted in such odd patterns on other cards, such as the ones in the Mastro auction.

I have no special knowledge about this process - just asking questions as part of the discussion :)

Abravefan11
01-15-2012, 10:26 PM
For what it's worth the blue was present at one time on this card. You can see it on the underside of Bates left arm and along the side of his body where the registration is off slightly. Here' a comparison of the Ebay card and a common example also with the registration slightly of in the same manner.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-o6p9BSayBL0/TxOYNdvmKKI/AAAAAAAAFjI/mwKFzaLenOQ/s464/batescomp.jpg

Runscott
01-15-2012, 10:35 PM
True, so do you feel that it is just a coincidence that this card doesn't have the same strange patterns as the others that were affected by chemicals/glue?

Also, at first glance it does look like the 'incorrect' card has splotches of yellow that are not on the other one, but that could also just be the absence of blue - I can't tell if the correct card has darker green (more blue) in the areas that are yellow on the incorrect card, but looks like it might.

edited: Just so no one thinks I'm arguing, I agree that these are not scrap - just trying to better understand the effects that are causing the color fading, be it sunlight, acid in album paper, glue, chemicals or otherwise.

Leon
01-15-2012, 11:23 PM
It's just my guess that this example shown had some kind of chemical put onto it after the printing process. I don't know when, but that being said, and the fact it's considered altered, means it's not a factory product like a printers scrap I would normally think of. I am at the low end of the totem pole on knowing all of the printing nuances. I just don't consider an altered-after-the-fact card as in the same category as a regular printers scrap.

Abravefan11
01-15-2012, 11:39 PM
I don't know what caused the discoloration on the Bates card, but it appears to me that the top color was removed throughout the background.

Starting at the bottom the yellow and blue were layered to produce the light green grass. The dark green run covered most of this area to produce the deep green grass. This top dark green layer has been reduced and in a few areas removed from the Bates card.

Where the ground meets the horizon the dark green run produced the purple. This top layer has been removed.

The top sky portion was produced with the blue print run. This area and has been removed.

I added a Ritchey which has similar color patterns simply for comparison.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-O7YWM-TI4rU/TxOlpMZN_gI/AAAAAAAAFjU/jnE_vNEGuFE/s687/batescomp1.jpg

Sterling Sports Auctions
01-15-2012, 11:41 PM
Here are the 2 I could find scans for. I find it curious how the glue can affect the background colors and hardly affect the head and body of the card.

<a href="http://s280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/bowlingshoeguy/?action=view&amp;current=T206MattyW.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/bowlingshoeguy/T206MattyW.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/bowlingshoeguy/?action=view&amp;current=T206MattyPortbackDam.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/bowlingshoeguy/T206MattyPortbackDam.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Lee

Runscott
01-16-2012, 02:01 AM
I find it curious how the glue can affect the background colors and hardly affect the head and body of the card.

Lee

Yep Lee - that's what I also tried to ask but must have missed the mark.

I'm also missing where anyone said that an altered card should be considered printers scrap. I think everyone's in agreement that printers scrap is something tossed in the garbage before going into production.

edited to add: Lee, it looks like the glue DID affect Matty's head - his forehead is pure white where the glue was. The only part unaffected seems to be the black ink - Steve hinted in a previous post that different inks had different properties, so maybe black is glue-proof?

teetwoohsix
01-16-2012, 12:10 PM
To me it looks like someone intentionally used a chemical/solvent to try to remove the blue (to deceive).....it doesn't look like the cards shown with the glue seeping through......maybe they used a Q-tip with something like acetone or something similar. I don't know if that would even work, it's just a guess.

Sincerely, Clayton