Now I know where Coach's Corners crap goes

[Shoeless Moe]

to these local auction houses throughout the US

Look at these - I especially like the Gehrig letter to Ms Lindberg - check out the "M's" in Ms. and Many Thanks. Lou had a funny habit of writing the exact same leter completely different.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2779&aid=46913&lid=12170013#

And anone know where I can get a Mathewson and Ruth auto for under $30 each, I hate to spend $50 bucks on these.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2779&aid=46913&lid=12170017#

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2779&aid=46913&lid=12170014#

[David Atkatz]

On April 21, 1934 (the date this postcard was mailed, in Chicago) the Yankees were playing the Red Sox in Boston. Gehrig went 1 for 2, and walked twice.

And, of course, the postcard was originally written (before the back was cleaned, or pasted over) by a Chicago resident, as the address (which is not in "Lou's hand") only says "City," rather than Chicago.

The handwriting waves all over the card, another giveaway.

[RichardSimon]

And I love those "ground beef" shiny stickers on the front of that GPC.
And these guys are using postmarked postcards or creating their own postmarks to try and give their GPC's some credibility,,, that is not a happy development. I saw two of those yesterday, one Gehrig and one Walter Johnson, just signatures not notes, but they had postmarks and were fake.

[RichardSimon]

to these local auction houses throughout the US

Look at these - I especially like the Gehrig letter to Ms Lindberg - check out the "M's" in Ms. and Many Thanks. Lou had a funny habit of writing the exact same leter completely different.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2779&aid=46913&lid=12170013#

And anone know where I can get a Mathewson and Ruth auto for under $30 each, I hate to spend $50 bucks on these.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2779&aid=46913&lid=12170017#

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2779&aid=46913&lid=12170014#

Good find Paul,,, I knew this was going on and did mention it in the lengthy CC thread that is running now but this was a good find and shows exactly what I was talking about.

[steve B]

The postmark on this one looks real. It has all the right traits of a typical machine postmark. The points about the date and the "city' address that David made pretty much rule out the back message of course.

The only thing I find impressive about this one is the quality of the erasing job.

Steve B

And I love those "ground beef" shiny stickers on the front of that GPC.
And these guys are using postmarked postcards or creating their own postmarks to try and give their GPC's some credibility,,, that is not a happy development. I saw two of those yesterday, one Gehrig and one Walter Johnson, just signatures not notes, but they had postmarks and were fake.

[David Atkatz]

And, for good measure, the salutation "Ms." ("Mizz") originated in the 1960s.

[Forever Young]

The postmark on this one looks real. It has all the right traits of a typical machine postmark. The points about the date and the "city' address that David made pretty much rule out the back message of course.

The only thing I find impressive about this one is the quality of the erasing job.

Steve B

So, what is the opinion of the board on these fake gpcs? Are they faking the postmarks or removing the original ink?

I love me some gpcs and now clearly need to know how to decipher good from bad if at all possible(outside of the signature). How can I determine if a postmark is good? HELP!
:eek:

[David Atkatz]

The front of this PC is completely genuine.

[RichardSimon]

Where there is a will there is a way.
If there is a crooked way for forgers to sell autographs then somone will figure out a way to do it.
In this same vein, I saw a Babe Ruth Foundation check on ebay a couple of years ago. The check was blank and the check number was clearly visible. I immediately thought this could be trouble.
It did sell.
A month later the same check showed up again on ebay. Guess what? It was now filled in and signed with a skilled hand.
I did report it to one of my contacts in LE but one forged item unfortunately won't have much of an impact with LE.

[RichardSimon]

So, what is the opinion of the board on these fake gpcs? Are they faking the postmarks or removing the original ink?


I would think that it is possible that "they" might be doing both though in this instance it appears that they removed the original writing.
The original forger in the hobby, Ron Dross (don't RIP Ron) had forged signatures on blank unpostmarked GPC's so they could be clearly spotted. But these guys are getting smarter.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here it is.

53423

53424

53425

[Forever Young]

Here it is.

53423

53424

53425

Thanks for putting this up here Truth!

David, How can you tell? Is there something you look at by the stamp in particular that is a dead give away or just years of handling?

Richard, unfortunately there are lots of wills…I trust very few people in this hobby. This is pretty damn good considering..; a couple more steps taken.
It is just too erratic to fool us.... BUT THEY WOULD HAVE FOOLED SOMEONE.

They combined the content of the two examples below....CROOKS!

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad320/weino23/gehriggpc2.jpghttp://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad320/weino23/gehriggpc.jpg

The damndest thing is... these idiots would do better on ebay selling it with no cert. They went through all this trouble and will only get $120 for it rather than $113.

PS: They ALMOST nailed one letter in "K" ..well.... "KIND" of. :)

[David Atkatz]

I have seen the original note this PC was copied from. Other than the salutation, it's a word-for-word copy.

[RichardSimon]

The postcard sold for $475. If legit it certainly would bring a nice four figure sum.
My question is,,, who bought it and where will he try to sell it next?
It is like musical chairs with these items now, the last one left holding the item will be the loser.
I know that other hobbies have their horror stories too, but it seems to me that the sports memorabilia hobby is the worst of them all.
Why is that?

[David Atkatz]

Sports is hardly the worst.
Museums and collectors have purchased art forgeries for millions of dollars.

[ctownboy]

A Babe Ruth autographed baseball, "authenticated" by the same company sold in this auction (Kraft Auction) for $4,200 dollars.

David

[steve B]

My theory -And I know I'll probably take some heat for it- Is that the traditions and culture of sports memorabilia collecting make the faking much easier.

In stamps there has been a lot of record keeping regarding the tiniest detail since sometime in the 1840's (1840 was the "first" postage stamp) Fakes made to fool collectors began to appear probably around the 1850's And there have been detailed descriptions of the assorted fakes and info about who made them for nearly as long.
And the fakers have often been bought out with their stock and equipment being retained by a national stamp collectors organization.

Coins have been faked for a very long time, but the enforcement has often come from governments.

In both hobbies the national collectors organizations have been pretty strong, and being kicked out for faking or shady dealings was usually a career ender for a dealer. Doing what's considered "right" was business as usual. (Very victorian era attitude, those outed as frauds were priahs and ruined men in the eyes of those in the hobby) The guy I hung out at took a return on a coin he'd sold something like 10 years before that turned out to be altered. The only question asked when the coin was shown to him was howmuch it had been bought for as he didn't recall. - NO certificate, no reciept, just a memory of having owned that coing and having sold it.

Not that there haven't been bad apples, ther have of course been plenty of them.

With Sports memorabilia there hasn't been the constant build up of detailed knowledge. In stamps I can look up if a stamp was typographed engraved or lithographed. I can't do that with most sports collectibles. Many collectors have an attitude of open rebellion against the very concept. Granted the people doing grading /authenticating are often just as blind as the collectors, but that's what most collectors want, someone else to have knowledge and make a clear determination of wether something is real.

Yes, there's a concern that the fakers will learn enough to make it hard to determine if something is fake, but the technical skills have literally been out there since the 1800's. Knowing what may have been done to something lets you know what to look for to be sure it hasn't been done.

In stamps, the certs will tell you what it IS if one is issued. If I send a stamp in as a US #500 and it's not they'll issue a cert stating that it's actually a different one. The ones where they declare "we decline to render an opinion" are the fun ones. That means the people who should be experts have looked at it and can't figure it out with confidence. That's either REALLY good or very bad. And it may take years of research to figure out which.

I can't think of many sports collectors who would accept that.
Amd maybe rightly so, so much of this stuff is really a gray area. The technical knowledge either isn't there or is too closely held.

Until things change so that a faker is essentially out of the business when found out and the average hobbyist wants knowledge instead of a "bargain" the fakers and frauds will have an easy time of it.

Steve B

[steve B]

The cancel was made with a machine similar to this one.http://catalogue.postalheritage.org.uk/dserve/dserve.exe?dsqServer=localhost&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=6&dsqSearch=%28%28text%29=%27stamp%20cancelling%20ma chine%27%29

The one shown is a Krag, while the one on the GPC is probably an international. The operation is essentially the same. There's a spining ink pad, that inks a spinning steel die. The wheels at the right push the cards or leters into the space between the spinning die and a rubber roller. The die grabs it and prints the cancel as the mail is pushed through to the other side.

The tips of the wavy lines hit first, the circular part with the town last. A nice solid cancel will indent the paper a bit. The mail often slips slightly, and the die is very well inked. The sloppy bit at the right side of the circular part is a bit slip a bit sloppy ink, and darn hard to fake unless you make a machine.
The number to the left of the circle is the machine number. A small town might have one machine, Chicago had a whole roomfull. If I was going to the trouble of faking a cancel it would NOT be a Chicago machine cancel......Not when a card like this can often be had for pennies with a perectly good cancel already on it. (Plus the postal inspectors dislike cancel faking nearly as much as stamp faking, and there's no statute of limitations)

Steve B

[mabjae]

never mind

[travrosty]

many of these most popular companies authenticate using the super burger fast food concept of authenticating. you bring in your item to a show, someone wholly unqualified to look at it looks at it, issues a cert for a bogus item, spelling the name of the athlete wrong in the process, and it is all suppose to be good?

they adopted the certification system that fit their pocketbooks the best, not the one that serves the customer the best. art authenticators dont set up at an art show and promise a two hour turnaround on your salvador dali or picasso. If they did and called a Picasso a Picolo or a Dali a Danby, all hell would break loose, but authenticators can call a james jefferies a james Jeffers, or the can say that a bat was used by thurman munson, and his teammate sandy alomar jr. (should have been sr. obviously), and no one seems to care and they just go on to the next authentication.

some customers aren't interested in finding out if their piece is real, they just want the cert. to them the cert means its real. but of course a cert cant make a bad piece real, it just lets you sell it to the next guy under those auspices.

It has been 'deemed authentic'. (phrase that should be banned from our lexicon).

[mighty bombjack]

Check out this Anson. I doubt it will be up long,as it has the same AMA COA as those in the OP's links.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320826022170&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff105/mighty-bombjack/KGrHqFHJCME7yo4B8GqBPCSuyrWlw60_3.jpg

[scmavl]

Looks like ol' Cap can't write his name near as well he can write an address.

[steve B]

That cancel was in use fairly early. This example is 1839.

http://www.philamercury.com/covers.php?id=9587

By 1851-57 they were using a different one, and stamps.

http://www.theclassiccancel.com/n5091.jpg

Pretty easy one. Since Anson was born in 1852 It's very unlikely he'd have written his name on someone elses correspondence.
Maybe I should set up as an authenticator? It looks really easy:rolleyes:

Steve B

Check out this Anson. I doubt it will be up long,as it has the same AMA COA as those in the OP's links.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320826022170&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff105/mighty-bombjack/KGrHqFHJCME7yo4B8GqBPCSuyrWlw60_3.jpg

[Exhibitman]

Sigh...

[steve B]

Saddest part for me is that they wrecked a very nice example of an inexpensive stampless cover.

Sadder for anyone that pays the $3k for a writen on $20 cover.

Steve B

[mighty bombjack]

It's an emerging trend. Someone has been very busy signing old postcards and envelopes. Here's a Cobb with ACE COA.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ty-Cobb-Autograph-Auto-Signed-Postcard-ACE-authentication-WOW-/170761323075?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D5490376840168574664

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here it is.


53553

53554

53556

From the same seller. Also ACE (Justin Priddy) certed.

53557

53558

[Mr. Zipper]

Is there any over/under on how long before ACE/Priddy joins the ranks of the eBay banned along with STAT, Morales, Frangipani, et al.?

I don't know what is taking so long with Global Authentic/Steve Sipe. Must be some behind the scenes wrangling going on there.

[Shoeless Moe]

It's an emerging trend. Someone has been very busy signing old postcards and envelopes. Here's a Cobb with ACE COA.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ty-Cobb-Autograph-Auto-Signed-Postcard-ACE-authentication-WOW-/170761323075?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D5490376840168574664

So what's the going rate for a fake Cobb, Ruth and McGraw?

[Shoeless Moe]

Sold in that Indiana auction for $350 over the weekend, that seller on Ebay sold it Sunday b4 having it in hand for $2500.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2779&aid=46913&lid=12170012#topoflot


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Christy-Mathewson-Autograph-Auto-Signed-Cut-Check-1912-ACE-authentication-WOW-/170761319731?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c22af533

WOW!!!!!!!

[sylbry]

Is there any over/under on how long before ACE/Priddy joins the ranks of the eBay banned along with STAT, Morales, Frangipani, et al.?

I don't know what is taking so long with Global Authentic/Steve Sipe. Must be some behind the scenes wrangling going on there.


Maybe Mr. Niederman, who is a member here can fill us in on future of ACE.

http://autographcertificationexperts.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12

[Mr. Zipper]

Maybe Mr. Niederman, who is a member here can fill us in on future of ACE.

http://autographcertificationexperts.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12

Apparently, the ACE expert "team" consists of Justin Priddy and Brent Niederman who is a consultant who only authenticates Joe Mauer autographs. :confused:

#######

Brent Niederman - Consultant Authenticator

From Hamel, MN Brent has specialized in all apects of collecting Joe mauer and Hall of Fame autographed rookie cards. He has amassed a collection of over 400 Mauer rookie cards and over over 150 autographed cards that were signed in his presence or previously certified. Additionally he has acquired over 75 Hall of Fame autographed rookie cards, highlighted by a 1909-11 T206 Rube marquard and 1933 Goudey Mickey Cochrane.

Falling in love with the sporting world at an early age, Brent played baseball all the way through college until recurring injuries forced him to leave the game and continue as a assistant coach for the team his senior year. He attended Bethel University in St. Paul, MN with a degree in Sports Management graduating in May 2009. Currently Brent is pursuing a law degree applying to different law schools around the state to further his education in that field.

Brent first started collecting Mauer at age 14 when the Minnesota Twins drafted Joe in 2001. He has attended various signing events like Twins Fest that is held twice a year to obtain Joe’s autograph as well as at the Metrodome. He has carried on this passion for over nine years and has become well versed with Joe’s signature and its variations as to the style and how it has changed over the years.

Brent is a welcome addition to the ACE staff of experts specializing in Joe Mauer autographs. He is very experienced and knowledgeable in collecting Joe’s autographs in person and has familiarized himself with the evolving strokes, pen pressure, and consistencies of Joe’s signature. Based on the style of signature Brent can typically set a timeframe in which an item was signed. His knowledge of Mauer’s signature is unparalleled within the hobby.

[RichardSimon]

Maybe Mr. Niederman, who is a member here can fill us in on future of ACE.

http://autographcertificationexperts.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12

Hell, I am more concerned with the present of ACE than their future.
If they keep this up, maybe they will be looking for files in a cake.

[mighty bombjack]

The seller of the aforementioned Cobb has taken it down, along with the McGraw and Ruth autos he had listed with ACE certs. This was not ebay removing them, but the seller doing so because "the item is no longer available." I wonder if he sold them offline or if something else went down.

[thetruthisoutthere]

The seller of the aforementioned Cobb has taken it down, along with the McGraw and Ruth autos he had listed with ACE certs. This was not ebay removing them, but the seller doing so because "the item is no longer available." I wonder if he sold them offline or if something else went down.

Yes, the seller canceled those three auctions. I have a feeling he received quite a few emails about those auctions.

[Shoeless Moe]

and the seller took them down because he was told that ACE is not reliable (putting it nicely).

The seller said they were going to investigate them further, so good chance they'll re-emerge.

Now how do we go about getting ACE on the banned EBAY list if they are not currently. Because I suspect we are going to be seeing more garbage by them.

Can we tell EBAY that Christy Mathewson authenticated by them went for a whopping $300 bucks in an auction. That should be enough right? I know how you report an item, but how do you report a bad authenticator?

[GrayGhost]

An expert in Joe Mauer autographs? LOL. I don't know if this whole autograph collecting segment is worth it. Glad I don't have the means to collect it. Its sad, funny, awful and crazy all at once.

Honestly, no joking. HOW DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL BOUT AUTHENTICITY ANYMORE? Its just nuts.

[sylbry]

An expert in Joe Mauer autographs? LOL. I don't know if this whole autograph collecting segment is worth it. Glad I don't have the means to collect it. Its sad, funny, awful and crazy all at once.

Honestly, no joking. HOW DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL BOUT AUTHENTICITY ANYMORE? Its just nuts.

At least someone at ACE is an expert in something. Might be beneficial for Mr. Niederman to cut ties with ACE. They are quickly becoming a hobby villian among the likes of Coaches Corner, Lou Lampson, Chris Morales, ect...

[travrosty]

There is no reporting authenticators. If there was then abc and xyz would be in a different line of work. how many basic screwups does there need to be? Evidently it's unlimited.

[Fuddjcal]

and why we're at it Travis, lest us not forget the one of the true blue scammers of the "rubber stamper" scammers brigade, Mr Christopher MoralASS, Forensic Cheater F'er. Ace is not the place for the helpful Autograph man.

And I thought It was bad being the lowly Mantle collector....Imagine what it would be like to be a Pathetic Joe Mauer expert!!!!!

How about "almost" 1 good year and a cloud of dust. Talk about an overrated piece of dung! He might get that career HR total up to 50 before it's all said and done. That's if the stinkin bum can actually stay on the field for a season.

Fudd is Now an expert in Felix Millan and Stan Javier....Send all your Felix Millan's to me for authentication and you'll get a free Jullian Javier. I'll throw in a Manny Sanguillen, which I am also an expert if you act now.....

They must just be lining up around the block with the Fake Mauers...LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Haven't had a belly laugh in regards to Autographs in along time.

The state of affairs are just so gross, look for Fudd to Unload his entire collection this year, just so I don't have to follow this sorry B>S anymore.

:DI have to go take a growler now, because that's what this hobby is.... a big ice cream soft serve pile of dog cr**.:D

[slidekellyslide]

I sent a message to Justin Priddy through Facebook with a link to this thread and invited him to come talk to us about some of his items in this thread. I also noticed that three of my Net54 friends are friends with Justin..perhaps if they know him in real life we can get some answers from this guy.

[RichardSimon]

I sent a message to Justin Priddy through Facebook with a link to this thread and invited him to come talk to us about some of his items in this thread. I also noticed that three of my Net54 friends are friends with Justin..perhaps if they know him in real life we can get some answers from this guy.

Good idea but will he show up here? I have doubts.

[travrosty]

no one has forgotten, but its forgettable, because its not the big problem.

when the times comes, only one thing will shake the autograph collecting hobby to the core, and it won't have anything to do with an fde.

[slidekellyslide]

Good idea but will he show up here? I have doubts.

Oh, I know he's too chickensh*t to show up here and post...I just want to make sure that he has a link to the thread so he knows we're on to his scam.

[thetruthisoutthere]

no one has forgotten, but its forgettable, because its not the big problem.

when the times comes, only one thing will shake the autograph collecting hobby to the core, and it won't have anything to do with an fde.

Travis, are you saying that the thousands of Muhammad Ali forgeries that Chris Morales has certed, hasn't had a negative impact on the hobby?

[David Atkatz]

Whadda you care how much crap Morales certifies? No "real collector" buys his stuff. (A very reliable YouTube source told me that.)

Whoever forged those high-end Ruth balls has done "the hobby" serious--perhaps irreparable--harm. Morales and his fellow clowns are a joke.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Whadda you care how much crap Morales certifies? No "real collector" buys his stuff. (A very reliable YouTube source told me that.)

Whoever forged those high-end Ruth balls has done "the hobby" serious--perhaps irreparable--harm. Morales and his fellow clowns are a joke.

What "I care about" and "Why I care about it" is none of your business, Mr. Atkatz.

[GrayGhost]

Not this stuff again. ...:rolleyes:

Look, you two are both VERY passionate bout the mess the autograph hobby is in. Yes, the Ruth mess is a MAJOR issue, and the seemingly "automatic" PSA and JSA love on stuff.

But, Chris has exposed SO MUCH garbage, on e'thing from Ruth to Kobe Bryant to Clyde Barrow, that he provides a valuable service too.

Work together guys ..a lot of good has been done, and hopefully much more will come out of everyone trying to kill off these crooks and rid all their garbage from the Hobby.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Not this stuff again. ...:rolleyes:

Look, you two are both VERY passionate bout the mess the autograph hobby is in. Yes, the Ruth mess is a MAJOR issue, and the seemingly "automatic" PSA and JSA love on stuff.

But, Chris has exposed SO MUCH garbage, on e'thing from Ruth to Kobe Bryant to Clyde Barrow, that he provides a valuable service too.

Work together guys ..a lot of good has been done, and hopefully much more will come out of everyone trying to kill off these crooks and rid all their garbage from the Hobby.

You make a good point, Scott, but Mr. Atkatz has been "baiting" me for awhile now, and for once I took the "bait," but I won't apologize for taking the "bait."

[RichardSimon]

Years ago the young man who forged, among other things, high end team balls (I had a 1920's NY Giants team ball in my hands, offered to me by a conspiraor of the forger, it was a complete forgery with 20+ autographs) did the hobby serious harm and yet here we are years later and the hobby still thrives, albeit an economic slowdown in this country has had an effect.
I have a suspicion, totally unproven, that this person might have had a hand in the high end Ruth baseballs we are seeing now.
Charlie Sheen was taken in years ago, big time spenders were taken in, and yet collectors continue to buy and buy and buy.

[David Atkatz]

What "I care about" and "Why I care about it" is none of your business, Mr. Atkatz.

Dr. Atkatz to you, Chris.

And if it's "none of my business," why do you keep posting it?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Years ago the young man who forged, among other things, high end team balls (I had a 1920's NY Giants team ball in my hands, offered to me by a conspiraor of the forger, it was a complete forgery with 20+ autographs) did the hobby serious harm and yet here we are years later and the hobby still thrives, albeit an economic slowdown in this country has had an effect.
I have a suspicion, totally unproven, that this person might have had a hand in the high end Ruth baseballs we are seeing now.
Charlie Sheen was taken in years ago, big time spenders were taken in, and yet collectors continue to buy and buy and buy.

Richard, do you know if that "young man" also forged old-time NY Yankees team-signed baseballs?

[David Atkatz]

There you go again. ;)

[slidekellyslide]

Take it to emails or private messages...I don't care, but I'll lock this thread if it turns into another pissing match.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Check out this Anson. I doubt it will be up long,as it has the same AMA COA as those in the OP's links.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320826022170&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff105/mighty-bombjack/KGrHqFHJCME7yo4B8GqBPCSuyrWlw60_3.jpg

Bam!!! Gone!!!

[thetruthisoutthere]

I sent a message to Justin Priddy through Facebook with a link to this thread and invited him to come talk to us about some of his items in this thread. I also noticed that three of my Net54 friends are friends with Justin..perhaps if they know him in real life we can get some answers from this guy.

Justin will never come over, Dan. How could he explain something like the below. Quite a few of these were sold over at Pristine Auction.

53646

[slidekellyslide]

Justin will never come over, Dan. How could he explain something like the below. Quite a few of these were sold over at Pristine Auction.



Yeah...I know...I just want him to know that his crap is getting notice.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Yeah...I know...I just want him to know that his crap is getting notice.

I appreciate you trying to reach out to him and give him an opportunity to respond to our posts.

I've tried a few times myself, but to no avail.

Justin is well aware of what is going on.

[Fuddjcal]

Not this stuff again. ...:rolleyes:

Look, you two are both VERY passionate about the mess the autograph hobby is in. Yes, the Ruth mess is a MAJOR issue, and the seemingly "automatic" PSA and JSA love on stuff.

But, Chris has exposed SO MUCH garbage, on e'thing from Ruth to Kobe Bryant to Clyde Barrow, that he provides a valuable service too.

Work together guys ..a lot of good has been done, and hopefully much more will come out of everyone trying to kill off these crooks and rid all their garbage from the Hobby.

I couldn't agree more.... I love CW for what he has done and is doing with the onslaught of forgeries. It is needed so much. I always appreciate Travis just as much for what he has done and is doing. Both are especially passionate, but when you have Travis siding with Morales and the FDE's , Houston, we have a problem. I Know Travis "EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT MORALES" We'll guess what.... they don't. He is despicable. Other FDE's that Rubber stamp forgeries are also equally despicable. We all know who they are by now. Alphabet soup doing the things on the inside that they do and the level of forgeries they pass and refuse to correct is equally despicable. SO please, for the Average collector and the love of God, please just stop it already, it is nauseating.

Until these 2 Major Factions (FOREVER CLUELESS RUBBER STAMPER FDE Cheater F'ers vs Alphabet soup and their too big to fail mentality, good ole boy network, refusing to admit their mistakes) come together, it's going to be a long road.

Travis just needs to wrap his noodle around the big picture on this one point, that FDE is just as harmful to the average collector as the Alphabet soup. It is really just so moronic that it is laughable from a collectors point of view.

[Mr. Zipper]

"EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT MORALES" We'll guess what.... they don't. He is despicable. Other FDE's that Rubber stamp forgeries are also equally despicable. We all know who they are by now.

Just look of the parade of FDE junk coming in on Pawn Stars and The Real Deal (new auction show). Clearly "everyone" didn't get the memo about Morales, Max, Frangipani, et. al.

[Sportsnutcards]

I get 100's of dollars of bad autographs that walk into the store every week. Most of these are from the novice collector who have no clue, but many of them paid top dollar for these autographs because they just wanted to have something signed by the player and trusted whoever they were buying it from. While JSA and PSA have made mistakes, there is no way that the amount of bad stuff certified by them is anywhere near equal to the amount of bad autographs that have been certified by the "rubber-Stampers" or from the other major dealers who were found to be selling a large amount of fakes.

[perezfan]

Agree 100%. There's no comparison. It's silly to even mention them in the same breath.

Some people here have an axe to grind... probably because one of their prized possessions was shot down at some point. There's a world of difference between a company that makes a few inevitable mistakes, and companies that knowingly and willfully authenticate bad material for the sake of profit.

[David Atkatz]

Except for the fact that the bad stuff they certify is so bad that no one with an ounce of experience would buy any of it. But a PSA certified forgery can go for $300,000 to a sophisticated collector.

So who's worse for "the hobby"?

I'm certainly not worried about being fooled by a Morales-certified fake. But a really good forgery? Certed by PSA? Yeah, that worries me.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Everyone makes mistakes. But there's a big difference between an authentication company that makes an honest mistake, and someone who gives "blanket authentication" for every autograph that crosses their desk.

I would like someone to prove to me that Chris Morales actually has a "rejection folder." If Chris Morales routinely "authenticates" crap like the items below, then I would love to see his so-called "rejection folder."

The ink is still wet on the first item shown below.

53673

53674

[RichardSimon]

You can see where the ink "welled" up on that Ott when the "signer" slowed down.
Mr Morales you and I differ on the authenticity of that item.

[thetruthisoutthere]

On that Presidents Signed Baseball certed by Morales, Lee Trythall writes "Probably one-of-a-kind." He conveniently forgets that Coach's Corner has listed multiples of Presidents Signed Baseballs.

[GrayGhost]

You can see where the ink "welled" up on that Ott when the "signer" slowed down.
Mr Morales you and I differ on the authenticity of that item.

Interesting, bout the welled up Ink. Im learning more every day. Thx Richard. And that presidents ball..hehe. it is still wet, plus Hoover is probably signed in Sharpie:)

[travrosty]

I get 100's of dollars of bad autographs that walk into the store every week. Most of these are from the novice collector who have no clue, but many of them paid top dollar for these autographs because they just wanted to have something signed by the player and trusted whoever they were buying it from. While JSA and PSA have made mistakes, there is no way that the amount of bad stuff certified by them is anywhere near equal to the amount of bad autographs that have been certified by the "rubber-Stampers" or from the other major dealers who were found to be selling a large amount of fakes.



the amount isn't as important as the total $ amount of realized sales. which isn't even close though. a ten dollar mantle versus a 50,000, 100,000, or 150,000 dollar or more signed ball?

[thetruthisoutthere]

the amount isn't as important as the total $ amount of realized sales. which isn't even close though. a ten dollar mantle versus a 50,000, 100,000, or 150,000 dollar or more signed ball?

What about 20,000 Mantles that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Add to that 1,000 Ali signed photos that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Etc., etc.

So the amount still isn't important?

[Sportsnutcards]

What about 20,000 Mantles that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Add to that 1,000 Ali signed photos that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Etc., etc.

So the amount still isn't important?

I had a customer with brough in 6 Dozen bad Dimaggio balls who paid $125 apiece, along with a ton of other bad stuff.. Probably in total the guy had about $20K worth of stuff that was no good. I just don't think many understand how much bad stuff is out there that gets purchased by the uninformed on a daly basis.

[yanks12025]

Has anyone made up a fake auto and sent it in to get a letter from him?

[Shoeless Moe]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270888932329

[thetruthisoutthere]

I had a customer with brough in 6 Dozen bad Dimaggio balls who paid $125 apiece, along with a ton of other bad stuff.. Probably in total the guy had about $20K worth of stuff that was no good. I just don't think many understand how much bad stuff is out there that gets purchased by the uninformed on a daly basis.

You're right, Sportsnutcards, that not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector; the other truth is that people don't want to believe it.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here is that piece of crap forgery. Another piece of crap "authenticated" by Ted Taylor.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270888932329

53683

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[RichardSimon]

What about 20,000 Mantles that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Add to that 1,000 Ali signed photos that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Etc., etc.

So the amount still isn't important?

++1

[perezfan]

Except for the fact that the bad stuff they certify is so bad that no one with an ounce of experience would buy any of it. But a PSA certified forgery can go for $300,000 to a sophisticated collector.

So who's worse for "the hobby"?

I'm certainly not worried about being fooled by a Morales-certified fake. But a really good forgery? Certed by PSA? Yeah, that worries me.


For an educated/sophisticated collector such as yourself, the latter is admittedly worse. But concerning the hobby as a whole, I believe the former is worse. Hundreds of novice and new collectors entering the hobby will be burned, and this will slow/halt the growth of the hobby. We all started somewhere! While perhaps not as costly on a "per item" basis, the bogus forensic certed items must outnumber the PSA/JSA errors by 10 to 1.

The PSA/JSA examples are (for the most part) mistakes... It is the intent to deceive that differentiates a mistake from a criminal act. To me, that's the aspect which is most unacceptable.

[David Atkatz]

The PSA/JSA examples are (for the most part) mistakes... It is the intent to deceive that differentiates a mistake from a criminal act. To me, that's the aspect which is most unacceptable.Autographic forgeries date back to Roman times. Human nature being what it is, and greed being what it is, one will never eliminate the intent--or the attempt--to deceive. Never.

What is the point of posting, each and every month, some new forgeries available on Coach's Corner? Does anyone really think the bidders are here, and will be warned away? Have years of YouTube videos and "ooh, ooh, look how bad this one is" postings here made a difference in the flood of low-grade garbage? Not according to Chris, who states that "not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector." If Chris is right, than one might as well try emptying the Atlantic with a teaspoon.

But, one can eliminate the system that has caused so many to "buy the certificate, rather than the autograph."

[perezfan]

Yep... Two schools of thought, and both are valid. Sure, there's probably a point of diminishing return with all of the Coach's Corner/Ace/Morales threads. I've come to view them as entertainment more than anything else. Some of the fakes are downright funny. But that doesn't make these criminal outfits any less despicable.

We all have our own personal experiences with this stuff. I guess that's what motivates us to react differently than others might. I've only had positive experiences with Spence and PSA. Over the years, a few pieces I gambled on (and hoped were good) were rejected... and probably deservedly so. That would not have been the case with those other "forensic fools".

[steve B]

True you'll never get rid of forgeries or forgers of anything.

But posting here or anywhere else isn't useless.

Since I collect baseball stuff in general I sometimes get offered stuff third hand. Usually stuff from a friends mothers friend (Yeah, sounds odd but that's how it goes)

The last two have been autographed prints. With COAs from places I've never heard of. And since the sellers are older the best I get is usally a cell phone pic of it hung on the wall.
Googling the COA issuers sometimes brings me back here. And the news is never good. Even if it doesn't bring me here the news has yet to be good.

So if someone is considering CC or any of those places and does the slightest bit of research the posts are worth it.

Steve B

Autographic forgeries date back to Roman times. Human nature being what it is, and greed being what it is, one will never eliminate the intent--or the attempt--to deceive. Never.

What is the point of posting, each and every month, some new forgeries available on Coach's Corner? Does anyone really think the bidders are here, and will be warned away? Have years of YouTube videos and "ooh, ooh, look how bad this one is" postings here made a difference in the flood of low-grade garbage? Not according to Chris, who states that "not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector." If Chris is right, than one might as well try emptying the Atlantic with a teaspoon.

But, one can eliminate the system that has caused so many to "buy the certificate, rather than the autograph."

[thetruthisoutthere]

I've been writing for blogs and doing videos on Coach's Corner, Chris Morales and Ted Taylor for a long, long time, and I will continue to give them all of the "free advertising" they deserve.

Until Leon or Dan tells me that I should stop posting about Coach's Corner and Chris Morales, I will continue to do what I do.

[rjackson44]

Wheres the fbi in all this omg.

[RichardSimon]

Hundreds of novice and new collectors entering the hobby will be burned, and this will slow/halt the growth of the hobby.

You are as right as anyone could possibly be.
This is perhaps the smartest sentence in this thread and is something that I have always thought to be true.
Everytime there is an expose of the sports autograph hobby on TV or newspaper I shudder because without any doubt we will lose future collectors because of it.
Threads like this hopefully can warn some of them before they make mistakes. And if someone thinks these threads are a waste of time, well don't read the thread.

[GrayGhost]

I love these threads and have learned more about autographs on here in the last few months than I could ever learn. So, if its about a super expensive GH Ruth signed piece, or a Derek Jeter signed photo, keep exposing the forgeries and bad FDA's and "Authenticators"

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here's another masterpiece authenticated by Stat Authentic (Ted Taylor/Jeff Stevens). What a horrible forgery!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOU-GEHRIG-B-W-Photograph-Signature-Professionally-Framed-Authenticated-/200699002074?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eba97bcda


53696

53697

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[travrosty]

everytime i see an expose on the autograph hobby, i am glad the fraudsters and forgers are caught and exposed, and if it is an authentication company, great! they already know that what they are doing is incredibly flawed, but they take no reforms or actions themselves, they are very comfortable in their warm bath water. They think they can do it forever.

the hobbys swimming pool needs to be drained, cleaned, scrubbed, disinfected and filled back up with clean, fresh water.

I don't think we will lose collectors, but i hope what happens is that collectors wont just rely on an authentication company totally out of publicity or perceived reputation, but instead do some homework, slow down and take a little time to buy an autograph instead of an impulse buy because it has an abc or xyz sticker.

If the collector base shrinks a bit, maybe prices will come down, thats okay, but i dont think there will ever be a mass exodus of collectors, especially baseball, its too popular a sport.

What is happening now is not working, its a flawed, closed circuit system that benefits some at the expense of others. look at haulsofshame. 99.99 percent of the collectors out there dont know about the christy mathewson signed 'won in the ninth' controversy, the babe ruth signed ball controversy, they need to know. when 10,000 dollar, 50,000 dollar, 100,000 dollar and up pieces get sold with an authentication sticker from abc and xyz and these companies don't acknowledge anything, don't say anything and ignore, something needs to be done. good old competition would solve it but the people making the money on the current system don't want any.

[RichardSimon]

True there probably won't be a mass exodus of collectors from the baseball hobby.
But the influx we would actually like to see (if they make the prices go up, then our collections go up in value) is not taking place.
I still do nicely in my business of buying and selling autographs but find it harder to find new collectors who want to start collecting HOF autographs. The more common HOFers in my inventory now sit for a long time before they get sold.
Years ago, I would get multiple orders of HOF autographs in the $20-$50 range, it was obvious these were from newer collectors starting their HOF autograph collections. I rarely see that type of order now. Though Speaker, Young, Lajoie, Alexander, etc. still fly away quickly when I do get them in inventory.
The bottom line is new collectors are not coming into the hobby the way they used to.
Though the economy is probably a factor in that also.

[thetruthisoutthere]

We need not forget the impulse buyers who buy crap that originates from Coach's Corner with COAs from a self-proclaimed "Forensic Investigator" named Christopher Morales.

The impulse buyers make that purchase based on the fact that the COA reads "Forensic." They equate the word forensic with shows like CSI. Those same impulse buyers are equally impressed with the words court-approved.

[GrayGhost]

We need not forget the impulse buyers who buy crap that originates from Coach's Corner with COAs from a self-proclaimed "Forensic Investigator" named Christopher Morales.

The impulse buyers make that purchase based on the fact that the COA reads "Forensic." They equate the word forensic with shows like CSI. Those same impulse buyers are equally impressed with the words court-approved.

+1

[GrayGhost]

Heres a few.

first, a nice blurry, Abe Lincoln HANDWRITTEN letter from the Executive mansion. ONLY w the Coaches

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot/228/abraham-lincoln-hand-writtencertified-letter-from-1862.aspx

CHRIS Priddy and Ace...hmmm.

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot/228/christy-mathewson-autographed-chris-priddyace-certified-rare-won-in-the-ninth-vintage-book.aspx

And . um. he learned to sign his name later in his playing days? Huh? And the ink dried about three months ago. COME ON

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=305209

And just on page one. THREE Marilyn's, incl a ball w JFK, and a piece signed Norma Jean.

Honestly, its disguisting, disgraceful and hopefully some day the hammer will come down on these crooks and their crooked crap fake authenticators. It really p***** me off.:mad:

[thetruthisoutthere]

Yes, Scott, another piece of garbage authenticated by Chris "I Never Saw An Autograph I Didn't like" Morales. Think about the dozens of Abe Lincoln signed letters that Morales has "authenticated" over the years for Coach's Corner.

Has Morales as a "Forensic Investigator," ever asked Lee Trythall and Scott Malack where all of the vintage items he's "authenticated" originate from? Literally thousands of vintage autograph items that no one else could even dream of!!!! And that's only from Coach's Corner!!!!

And someone is going tell me that isn't a problem for the hobby!!!!! Seriously!!!!

53704

[scooter729]

CHRIS Priddy and Ace...hmmm.

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot/228/christy-mathewson-autographed-chris-priddyace-certified-rare-won-in-the-ninth-vintage-book.aspx



From the portion of the link which is visible, all I saw was "Christ..." in the description. I was guessing Scott and Lee really did it this time, and turned up a nice vintage ink 2,000 year-old signature from Jesus himself!

Alas, just another Christy Mathewson instead - what a disappointment.

[Mr. Zipper]

I think there is probably some merit to the argument that few, if any, go to Coaches Corner and unknowingly get fleeced. You'd have to be brain dead to look at that array of items and not be highly suspicious.

BUT, the issue is that the people who do buy at CC then flip these items in a less suspicious setting. Whether it's the quaint Mom & Pop second hand shop or Billy Bob's Good Ol' Boy Local Auction, eventually these items find their way to someone who is truly duped by the presumably honest seller and the "paperwork" that certifies it.

Coaches Corner is an example of hiding in plain sight. The middlemen distributors in Operation Bullpen were running around speaking in code and concerned their phones may be tapped. Coaches Corner just sits there for all to see and sells it month after month.

[RichardSimon]

They sell it Steve, shovelful by shovelful.

[David Atkatz]

Don't worry, Richard. We're almost there! Just a few more YouTube videos, and Coach's will be gone.

[Fuddjcal]

Funny David, Not LOL.

What have you done to stop the flood of forgeries? Someone puts himself out there trying to help the hobby we all love and you continue to give him s*** for it? I'd like to know why? Even if you are not on his side, how in the hell in good conscious can you keep giving him crap for it? You’re an idiot is why? Why don't you make a you tube video of you, the horse toothed jack ass alienating an entire hobby, because that's what you’re doing

It's precisely because idiots like you that think your s*** doesn't stink, that I cannot WAIT to sell my entire collection. OH YES, the old time collectors will most definitely leave. I've left once and when I hear an otherwise reasonable intelligent collector, give smack to a guy for putting his heart & sole into something, it's time to find a new hobby. I certainly respect Chris Williams & Travis Roste for their opposing view points of the authentication conundrum. You sir are just an ass, plain and simple. Never anything constructive to add, just “make fun” of what people are passionate about. I am personally tired of your crap and you really should reconsider your stance, but your reputation is what it is, a pathetic human being with NOTHING good to add to the collecting community ….NOTHING. I hope you rot and choke on all of your old Yankee stuff!!!!!

Leon, I think you should lock the thread because my eyes are hurting. I can’t see reading another word this dopey dope has to say. I’d rather shove an ice pick in my eye than to read one more word from this antagonizing Tra La La Goon D A

[David Atkatz]

Don't sugarcoat it like that, Chuck. Let us know how you really feel! :D

[Ease]

Chuck, relax man, drink a beer or burn one or something.

[David Atkatz]

On a serious note, though, if you want to laud someone for attempting to clean up the hobby, you should be thanking Peter Nash, and his Hauls of Shame. Outing those who have looted our public archives and libraries, and then sold on their spoils. Outing some serious forgeries that have infiltrated the hobby at the highest level. Outing those who have fooled "the hobby" for years, and have sold their forgeries for millions of dollars (The contents of the "Barry Halper wing" at the Hall of Fame (now thankfully removed--thanks to Nash) were purchased by MLB for nearly ten million dollars for donation to the Hall.)
In addition to publicizing these frauds, his efforts have led to quite a few of the artifacts being returned.

Now there's someone who's doing some good.

(And, please, don't bother me about his past. That's between him and Rob Lifson, and only they know what really happened. (Even if they don't agree.) I'm interested in what he's doing now--which is helping all of us, enormously.)

[GrayGhost]

Fuddjcal, I agree a hundred pct. Im tired of reading this petty BS. And Ease, yo have a creepy avatar. ugh..haha

Im done contributing to this thread too. Just sick of the kid fighting BS

[RichardSimon]

I have heard that Peter Nash will be doing another project after the Ruth baseballs.
He will be looking at old team baseballs.
(pow)bullseye(pow).

[David Atkatz]

I have heard that Peter Nash will be doing another project after the Ruth baseballs.
He will be looking at old team baseballs.
(pow)bullseye(pow).And he'll do a far better job of it than you ever could.

Oh, snap!

[yanks12025]

I know that Ace still goes to cardshows and does authentication for people. Has anyone thought about going and questioning him.

[RichardSimon]

And he'll do a far better job of it than you ever could.

Oh, snap!

Snap! Was that sarcasm?
I am sure, that with Ron Kerujian working with him, he will do a better job than anyone.
I already know what they think about a certain 1927 ball.

[David Atkatz]

You're a one-trick pony, Dick.

(And no, Dick. That wasn't sarcasm. That was truth.)

[RichardSimon]

I want to let all Net54 members that I will not engage Mr Atkatz in another long winded thread.
I will not respond to him again in this thread.
I will continue to post about the topics that are being discussed.
I am done with childish behavior and hopefully Mr. Atkatz will be also.

[David Atkatz]

Right, Richard.
Nothing childish about your poll.
Holier than thou hypocrite.

(And, once again, it's Dr. Atkatz to you. :D)

[David Atkatz]

Just one more thing, Dick. Suppose my '27 ball is a forgery? So what? You keep harping on that. Is it supposed to insult me? Why? Because you were never fooled? Come on, Dick. You're really gonna have to do better than that.

[GrayGhost]

Damn, Shut up please. I belong to an indy wrestling board, and over there, Id expect this petty crap. NOT here.

[David Atkatz]

Damn, Shut up please. I belong to an indy wrestling board, and over there, Id expect this petty crap. NOT here.+1!

[Ease]

Peter Nash Interlude (http://deadspin.com/5843406/when-rap-ruled-the-world-a-white-boy-mcs-photo-album-1986%201991/gallery/1)

I also think he's doing a great thing with his website these days, regardless how hard he tried to look back in the day:D

[FUBAR]

anyone notice the "t" 's in the fake letter look a lot like Babe Ruth "t"s...

Makes you wonder if this person has signed so many fake ruths that he signs all the t's that way now.

[RichardSimon]

The person who might be one of the forgers of fake letters that appear in CC is probably not the same person as the one who is forging the Babe Ruth baseballs.