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View Full Version : 1916 Green-Joyce


Northviewcats
12-31-2011, 10:41 AM
Hello Everyone,

I wanted to bid on this item, but it blew past my expectations with three hours to go. I was a bit surprised at the final price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140665946932?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Is this issue so rare that it brings this high a price, or from the number of serious bidders, was it a type collector's dream? Any thoughts?

Congratulations if a board member won it!

Best regards,

Joe

Leon
12-31-2011, 11:39 AM
With the finding of a few groups of the other very tough backs the Green-Joyce backs are now, what I would consider, one of the scarcest. That being said, imo, this one on ebay went for about 2x what they normally do, even with the card in that nice of condition.

http://luckeycards.com/pm101backsmaster2.jpg

fkw
12-31-2011, 12:27 PM
yes that price is crazy...

I picked up my only GJ back for $50 a few years back on eBay, and it was EX+/NRMT if not slightly better.

But like Leon said they are one of the scarcer backs. Im guessin someone (or at least 2 bidders) just had to have it and didnt want to wait for a good deal (real value price) to come around...

they are worth a bit more than $50 now ;), but no where near $600+ for a common player in lower grade

Jaybird
12-31-2011, 01:04 PM
Here's my one Green Joyce. Got it raw last year for $300. I thought it was a good deal at the time and don't think they've climbed as far up as that example you linked to but they certainly are hard to find. (sorry for the large scan)

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/1910-1920/GreenJoyceDonovan.jpg

FrankWakefield
12-31-2011, 01:10 PM
I think the high price is attributable to back scarcity. Several years ago The Standard Catalog listed Green Joyce cards, but had no illustrative example. I mailed them my Bescher card so they could have a depiction. That card is my only Green Joyce. I think there are half a dozen collectors who have a bunch, that there are quite a few of us who have one, and most vintage collectors have none.

Rob D.
12-31-2011, 01:19 PM
I think the high price is attributable to back scarcity. Several years ago The Standard Catalog listed Green Joyce cards, but had no illustrative example. I mailed them my Bescher card so they could have a depiction. That card is my only Green Joyce. I think there are half a dozen collectors who have a bunch, that there are quite a few of us who have one, and most vintage collectors have none.

I think Frank nailed it: The high selling price is because of the Green-Joyce back and because most collectors don't own one.

HRBAKER
12-31-2011, 01:24 PM
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s172/hrbaker/ECm1014GG.jpghttp://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s172/hrbaker/ECM1014GGbk.jpg

nolemmings
12-31-2011, 05:29 PM
I thought it would top out around $400, as it is a nice card for the grade. Three people bid $500+, and my snipe did not even register.

For those chasing the backs, Green-Joyce and Mall Theatre head the most-wanted list for m101-4. The bad news about this auction is that there are apparently at least two others ready to bid large for the next one.

Brian Van Horn
12-31-2011, 06:09 PM
Here's my contribution to the discussion/viewing:

philliesphan
12-31-2011, 09:18 PM
that the price is related to Dugey being a Philadelphia National player.

I can point out a dozen or so auctions this year of Phillies pre-war items that brought absolutely insane prices. From the two Broadleafs auctioned by Goodwin earlier this year, to a team PC in another auction outlet, there have been some phenomenally head-scratching prices on some pre-war Phillies.

FWIW -- I was the third bidder on this Dugey card, but clearly was blown away.

M

smtjoy
01-01-2012, 01:44 AM
These are harder to find than scarce T206 backs just not collected as much. Grats to the winner!

Here is mine-

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n182/smtjoy/Vintage%20Cards/M101/16gjfletcher20.jpghttp://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n182/smtjoy/Vintage%20Cards/M101/16gjfletcher20b.jpg

ValKehl
01-02-2012, 11:02 PM
I, too, was quite surprised at what this card sold for. I bid $252 well before the auction ended, and planned to up my bid to $350ish at the end of the auction; but, when I went to do this, the price was already over $500! Oh well, maybe I'll be fortunate enough to fill this hole in my type collection during 2012!
Val

philliesphan
01-03-2012, 12:37 PM
I think a good gauge of a "too high" price is a price that warrants other examples to be offered for sale or auction.

We've seen a number of high-grade T206 rare backs in 2011, for example, that reflects the increase in prices in that market. I don't expect this Dugey price to bring about any noticeable increase of Green-Joyce cards to market in 2012.

Jaybird
01-03-2012, 05:43 PM
interesting point. I agree with you. Even though that is twice what I paid, I wouldn't take it to part with mine. When they are so hard to find, sometimes money isn't enough. Of course, that's all dependent on how much money. :)

FrankWakefield
01-06-2012, 07:57 PM
Green-Joyce.

As best as I can figure, they were a department store in Columbus, Ohio. They were located in the entirety of an 8 story building. The Gazette Times, a Pittsburgh paper, has a full page ad talking about Kaufmann's, The Big Store, buying the entire stock of Green-Joyce. This is from February 18, 1918. The ad can be found on the internet. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1126&dat=19180209&id=dpNRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FmgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3764,2166387

The ad mentions being closed all day Monday, before the big sale starts, to comply with the Government's plan to conserve fuel.

So I figure that Green-Joyce went out of business soon after the Christmas sales season of 1917.

Here's a postcard from the Metropolitan Museum's Digital Library collection...
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/GreenJoycefromMetLibraryDigitalCollections.jpg
I recall a department store in Nashville, TN, that was downtown, and had an area similar to this. They had a merry-go-round down there, and I recall a tall slender fellow, must have been a bit over 7 feet tall, a happy giant of sorts, dressed up like he was ready for a circus. The store was Harvey's.


Next is a postcard I have that's a bit unusual. It is a double post card. The inside depicts the department store's Studios of Interior Decoration. To the right at the bottom is "The Green-Joyce Co. Retail, Columbus, Ohio". I think they had a wholesale business nearby. On the outside is the normal postcard stuff, a normal 1 cent stamp and a Balboa stamp, a July 1, 1915 cancellation, close in time to the time of our dear ballcards. On the blank side, in pencil, is "S.W. cor. Chestnut & High", I'd guess that's the location of the store.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/GreenJoycepostcardinside-1.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/GreenJoycepostcardoutside-1.jpg


And here's my one Green-Joyce card, the Bob Bescher card depicted in The Standard Catalog.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/GreenJoyceBeschercard.jpghttp://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/GreenJoyceBeschercardback.jpg


Anyone else have any Green-Joyce stuff?

nolemmings
01-06-2012, 10:46 PM
Frank,

There are records to indicate that Green-Joyce lasted until 1928-29, in some form or fashion. And yes, the store locale was Chestnut & High in Columbus.
The bankruptcy related ad you produced was not the first for the company--I have a copy of a similar size ad from the Fresno Morning Republican dated 5/3/1899 that stated in part:

"Great Bankrupt Sale...
We have purchased $50,000 worth of High-Grade SEASONABLE MERCHANDISE
Bought at Peremptory Sale from the receivers of Green, Joyce & Co,, Columbus, Ohio."

I don't know if they periodically restructured or what, but it seems they knew how to move goods in bulk. The founder, John Joyce, was considered a pretty significant business man.

Finally, I note that your card has the same inking void in the "G" that is seen in Scott's Card of Fletcher, suggesting there may have been two print runs. FYI, a similar void is sometimes seen in the "C" in Herpolsheimer Co. on the reverse of those cards.

ValKehl
01-10-2012, 11:35 PM
Thanks to the kindness of Rob D., I no longer have a Green-Joyce void in my type-card collection. My new treasure has the same printing flaw affecting the letter "G" (which I thought at first was paper loss) as Scott's and Frank's cards. Sorry for the glare in the pics - I had to use a camera because my CCD scanner died last month.
Val