Vintage stadium experts- Anyone recognize this NL visitors dugout from 1938?

[Scott Garner]

I was wondering if I could recruit the help of all the vintage stadium experts here on net54. I'm hoping that someone might recognize where this photo might of been shot.

The reason that I am asking is that Graig Kreindler is going to paint this for me in Kreidlercolor, so getting a sense of what color the visitors bench and wood behind him is would be helpful to know.

The photo below was taken of Johhny Vander Meer in 1938 when he pitched on the road. This shot was taken of a visitors dugout in one of these stadiums based on his pitching appearances:

Boston Braves
NY Giants
Pittsburgh Pirates
Chicago Cubs
Philadelphia Phillies
Brooklyn Dodgers
St. Louis Cardinals

Thanks in advance for your help!

[Scott Garner]

Bump

[Chris Counts]

Scott, is it possible it was taken during the spring? If so, it could have been taken in any number of minor league parks as well. Also, a ton of photos from this era were taken at the Reds spring training park in Tampa, FL. I have a spring training photo of Al Hollingsworth from about 1938 and he's wearing the same road jersey, even though he's posing in the Reds' park. By the way, I 'm really looking forward to seeing Greg's painting of the photo ...

[Scott Garner]

Scott, is it possible it was taken during the spring? If so, it could have been taken in any number of minor league parks as well. Also, a ton of photos from this era were taken at the Reds spring training park in Tampa, FL. I have a spring training photo of Al Hollingsworth from about 1938 and he's wearing the same road jersey, even though he's posing in the Reds' park. By the way, I 'm really looking forward to seeing Greg's painting of the photo ...

Chris,
Thanks for helping out. You may be on to something, there. Graig has already gone down the list of ML parks and none are a match. The dugout's overall condition (extremely low-tech- LOL) wouldn't discount your theory and could possibly support it.

Could this be a spring training shot? Quite possibly. I haven't received the picture yet, but it supposedly originates from The Sporting News' photo archive. Does anyone know if The Sporting News back issues are available online?

Maybe that's the way I can run down where this photo was shot....

Thanks, I can't wait to see it either.

[Lordstan]

Scott,
I believe that this definitely is a Spring Training/minor league stadium. It's hard for me to believe that any major league stadium in 1938 would be in that amount of disrepair.

Also,
I think that picture will be outstanding in Kreindlercolor. The mix of bright sun at the very front with varying degrees of shading as you progress toward the back of the picture is quite intriguing. In this picture it is amazing that while he is in shade, there is still enough light to create a shadow in the back wall of the dugout from his body. I think this type of light manipulation is really where Graig's talent shines through.(Hence all the comparisons to Rembrandt). I can't wait to see the final product.

Perhaps you could play around in photoshop, or similar, to test out different colors on the wood to see what you think looks the best.

Best,
Mark

[thecatspajamas]

Does anyone know if The Sporting News back issues are available online?

I believe you can view back issues of TSN via paperofrecord.com (for a paid subscription). Interestingly enough, my understanding is that the same access is included with SABR membership for about the same price as one of the lower-tier paperofrecord annual memberships.

All of this is hearsay as I haven't tried it out myself, but appears to be current as of July of this year:
http://www.baseball-fever.com/archive/index.php/t-93213.html

Good luck!

[Scott Garner]

Mark,
Thanks! I'm with you in that I believe Graig's experise with the use of light is one of the things that's most amazing in his paintings. I thought that him painting this photo would be a great use of his talent.

Lance,
I appreciate the info and I will persue this further.

[jerseygary]

Unless my eyes are going, does his cap lack the Cincinnati "C" on it? If it is missing then this is definitely taken at spring training - the Reds used plain caps during the spring, that is, navy crown and red brim, no "C". I've seen countless spring training shots of the Reds circa 1938-41 and this is so. Not quite sure why, but maybe because once the rosters were settled the guys going with the big club had a "C" sewn on and those guys going to a minor league affiliate got what ever letter went with that teams uniform. Or maybe plain caps were cheap and disposed after spring training, who knows? The Brooklyn Dodgers also had a giveaway sign that a picture was taken at spring training - the "B" was embroidered on a separate piece of wool and then sewn onto the cap. When opening day came around these were exchanged for a regular cap with the "B" direct embroidered on the cap. The 1940's Pittsburgh Pirates were the same as Brooklyn.

[Scott Garner]

Unless my eyes are going, does his cap lack the Cincinnati "C" on it? If it is missing then this is definitely taken at spring training - the Reds used plain caps during the spring, that is, navy crown and red brim, no "C". I've seen countless spring training shots of the Reds circa 1938-41 and this is so. Not quite sure why, but maybe because once the rosters were settled the guys going with the big club had a "C" sewn on and those guys going to a minor league affiliate got what ever letter went with that teams uniform. Or maybe plain caps were cheap and disposed after spring training, who knows? The Brooklyn Dodgers also had a giveaway sign that a picture was taken at spring training - the "B" was embroidered on a separate piece of wool and then sewn onto the cap. When opening day came around these were exchanged for a regular cap with the "B" direct embroidered on the cap. The 1940's Pittsburgh Pirates were the same as Brooklyn.

Gary and others that have attempted to help,

Merry Christmas!

I just received the actual 1938 Vander Meer photo today. Now that I have examined it up close, I can tell you that there definately is a Cincinnati "C" on the front of Vandy's hat, so not spring training. I have uploaded a better scan to look at this photo with more detail.

Additionally, I have scanned the back. It appears that the photo was taken by photographer William C. Greene from NY. It does appear that this photo ran in a Sunday edition of a NY area paper (see note on back indicating that the "photo crop as seen- Sunday".

I'm thinking that this photo was taken of Vander Meer in the visiting dugout of either the Polo Grounds or Ebbets Field in 1938.

Can any board member either confirm that the dugout shown is either the Polo Grounds or Ebbets or absolutely elimiminate either or both?
Also, have any of you early photo experts ever heard of a photographer named William C. Greene from NY?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Happy holidays!

[thecatspajamas]

Greene was a fairly well-known staff photographer for The New York World Telegram from the 1930s through the 1960s, and also supplied images for some of the news services and Baseball Magazine. His images are typically very nice, clear shots. I've run across a few of them, most notably in a collection of Joe DiMaggio news photos that I had a couple years back. Yee's book also notes that he was a team photographer during the 1930s and 1940s, but doesn't say which team(s).

Hope that helps!

Edited to add: Typically I've seen his name either stamped on the back or embossed in the photo itself. This may be the first one I've seen with a hand-written notation of him as the photographer.

[thekingofclout]

Green was also the Yankees official team photographer.

Does anyone know if the Polo Grounds had a small bullpen? Not sure when teams started adding them. I figure Ebbits Field was too small.

[thecatspajamas]

Green was also the Yankees official team photographer.

Well that certainly explains the DiMaggio connection :D Just for my own future reference, do you happen to know what years he was official team photographer for them?

[Scott Garner]

Hey Lance & Jimmy,
That's great info! I really appreciate it.

Merry Christmas!

[doug.goodman]

Not that this has anything to do with the location of the dugout, but just to help with info on the photographer :

I have 671 different Baseball Magazine supplements (both m113 & m114), as would probably be expected, most of the photos are credited to Conlon with 233 (35%), Greene has the second most at 138 (21%), with International coming in third with 71 (11%, including most of my m113s).

Merry, Happy, etc.
Doug