Hunt's Philly Show and David Hunt

[danmckee]

I spoke to David Hunt the other day about his show, what happened with the Oaks show dealers, and the future of shows in the Philly area.

After we finished the initial cussing and screaming at each other: (J/K David is as classy as they come), he expressed a few very good points to me.

Though I may not completely agree with him on everything, I do see where he is coming from.

David stated that with his overhead and the cost of booths at his show, that he actually loses money. Though I believe him, I would say he may need to make some changes with how many staff he uses and whatever other overhead he has to get the cost down to the dealers.

He also mentioned that in today's market, you need both autographs and the vintage dealers for a successful show. I completely agree with this.

I did not agree with the upholding of not letting the dealers do his show if they did the Oaks but I was open minded to hear his reasoning. After all, he returned thousands of dollars worth of checks in hand so that took some strength. He stated he needed to protect his loyal dealers as the area cannot support 2 shows.

I think he maybe he should have just held out another year and the Oaks show probably would have folded. But that is just a guess on my part.

David did say he has lost about 10 quality vintage dealers and in doing so has lost many vintage collectors in attendance.

I have known David a long time and I know he would like to get the Philly show back to thriving again.

He also stated that everyone was welcome back to do it, I am the only dealer on the permanant barred list. :eek:

I don't have all of the answers and I am sure he would be open to friendly sensible suggestions but I sure would be interested in maybe giving it a try again in the future after some changes are made.

David also offers $200 tables but says only 3 dealers have taken advantage of these. I do not know where he has this row set up but it may be worth looking into.


I hope I touched on everything we spoke about and I did tell him that I really miss his February auctions in Exton, damn they were fun!

Please, everyone have a very Happy Holiday Season!

Dan Mckee

[basesareempty]

I do not understand how he can be losing money on dealer fees and still be in business. He is charging almost 2x more than CSA for the same amount of space. To me it says that he is paying too much for the venue where he holding the show and needs to find a different place to hold the show that is more dealer friendly(collector friendly too for that matter)as well as more friendly to his bottom line. As far as protecting his "loyal dealers" if these dealers were having great shows and making lots of money with him they would not have sought out or felt the need to find another show to sell their wares. Even with the downturn in the economy there are still a lot of collector who would gladly come to these shows and spend money if dealers had their stuff clearly priced and priced at a reasonable amount. Many dealers are getting frustrated with EBay and their fees and collectors are tired of getting ripped off on EBay.I believe that shows have an oppurtunity to make a comeback because of this. I think that the Philadelphia area is big enough for both promoters but they need to work together to spread their schedules out so they are not so close together,it could work for both of them and be great for collectors. Also the autograph guests is a necessary evil these days I understand. The Philly show generally has Molly bring in her roster of Phillies,Eagles and Sixers players with a few other scattered in. Marco has a wide variety of Hall of Famers from various sports as well as local star players that appeal to the Philly collecter base. Dealers are an independent breed who do not want to be told where and for who they can set up with, David should realize this.

[wonkaticket]

So let me get this straight he’s protecting a dying and failing business from which he is losing money each and every time he sets up. Sorry but my meter is off the charts here.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/epqpfnjm.gif

If in fact this is true just walk and let the other sucker (Marco) lose his shirt. This tactic of barring and marking your territory is being done by someone who is making some profit and doesn’t want to be opened up to a thing called competition. Sort of like Wal-Mart banning a local Target because they are losing money each day they open.

Hey Leon your in the food biz as an entrepreneur wouldnt it be nice to get your customers and suppliers to not allow any other food joints near you because biz is slow? :D

As a vintage collector I’m done with this show. It has become nothing more than a social venture as the quality of merchandise and dealers has suffered. If I want social time I can get together with folks and not pay a cover charge to a so called profit losing individual or his company.

As a business man I have no sympathy for a company or individual who can’t manage his or her business and wants to dictate to other business owners their options for marketing their companies within a regional area. Think about this if in fact David is losing money here, why on earth would you as a dealer want to be tied to a sinking ship?

Takes a lot of nerve to tell folks how and where they will be allowed to market their companies and generate profits when you can’t even generate one yourself.

Cheers,

John McDaniel

[tedzan]

First, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 20 vintage dealers (including you and me) that have dropped out of the Valley Forge (VF) show.
I do not see how this show can survive with the large number of quality dealers that have abandoned it.

Conversely, if the VF show hangs in there and continues to precede the Oaks show (by a month), I do not see how the Oaks show can survive. Ir-
respective of the fact that the Oaks show has a large number of quality dealers. In this current environment, only one "Philly show" will prevail.

If Marco could move up the Oaks show, so it precedes the VF show (or even coincides) with the VF show.....I think we will see a significantly larger
attendance at Oaks.

In any event, something has to give here. It goes without saying, that dealers will favor a show whose booth fees are reasonable. And, the booth
fees at VF are more than double the booth fees at Oaks.

The VF show promoters have a difficult time of defending their $600+ fee, once the BB card dealers have discovered that the Gun show dealers are
paying less than $100 for their tables at the same VF facility.


TED Z

[danmckee]

All very good points indeed. I sent David this link so maybe we can get a guest appearance from him. Though I can't blame him for not coming on here, I have left in pieces from this forum many times.

As I said, I do not have the answers, but it would be nice to have a show to set up at that was attended by a decent amount of people and was affordable for the dealer.

[Leon]

With all due respect to David I also think he is going about having his show be a success the wrong way. The way to succeed is to offer a better value/product, not tell people they can't play if they also play somewhere else.

Can anyone imagine if I said, well, if I see you posting on another chat board I won't let you post on this one? There would be a mass exodus and rightfully so. Lets all hope David changes his exclusionary practices...

[tachyonbb]

John, we used to use the same "BS" detector at our work. We discovered that we did not need the amplified version as there is enough BS around that amplification is not necessary. Even with the regular version it would burn out periodically. We replaced it with a "Telling the Truth" meter. It has lasted a long time as it activates on a very infrequent basis.

[Jewish-collector]

I went to the recent Philly show. Here is my take on it. There is a lot of construction around the facility. The show itself is on the bottom floor of the complex. You had to walk down a few sets of stairs and down a large hallway. So, that atmosphere does not help. They charge $8 per day admission, $21 for the weekend, all of which I thought was a little steep. Now, having said that, the show itself wasn't as bad as I was suspecting. There was a mixture of local Philly dealers as well as National dealers. Lots of Phillies cards & memorabilia. A few auction houses had booths (Goodwin, Mile High, Heritage, Huggins & Scott, Clean Sweep). All 3 grading companies (PSA, SGC, Beckett) were there. James Spence (JSA) was there for authenticating autographs. All in all, the show has lost a lot of its luster from the old Ft. Washington days, but it doesn't seem like it will be history just quite yet.

Alan

[slidekellyslide]

First, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 20 vintage dealers (including you and me) that have dropped out of the Valley Forge (VF) show.
I do not see how this show can survive with the large number of quality dealers that have abandoned it.

Conversely, if the VF show hangs in there and continues to precede the Oaks show (by a month), I do not see how the Oaks show can survive. Ir-
respective of the fact that the Oaks show has a large number of quality dealers. In this current environment, only one "Philly show" will prevail.

If Marco could move up the Oaks show, so it precedes the VF show (or even coincides) with the VF show.....I think we will see a significantly larger
attendance at Oaks.

In any event, something has to give here. It goes without saying, that dealers will favor a show whose booth fees are reasonable. And, the booth
fees at VF are more than double the booth fees at Oaks.

The VF show promoters have a difficult time of defending their $600+ fee, once the BB card dealers have discovered that the Gun show dealers are
paying less than $100 for their tables at the same VF facility.


TED Z

$600 just to set up??? :eek:

[tedzan]

I'm being "generous" by stating $600.

I did the first 5 shows (of the 8) at Valley Forge, and it cost me $700 for a 10' x 10' booth each time I set up.

For comparison....the most Bob Schmierer charged us for the traditional Philly Show (Ft Washington and Reading, PA) was $350 for a similar size booth.

And, I had no qualms about paying the $350....since those shows were tremendous. As were the old Philly Shows at Willow Grove.

And, the best show I've had at Valley Forge was a fraction of the old Philly shows in terms of sales, trades, walk-ins, etc.


TED Z

[autograf]

I don't have a dog in the fight being stuck here in the Midwest but have been to the Philly show a couple times years ago when it was Ft. Washington and have been to a bunch of Hunt Auctions here in Louisville and in Philly area. $600-$700 for a 10x10 booth is STRONG dinero.....that's getting close to National type money.....okay, maybe less than that but much more than your run of the mill show. Plus the $8/day is pretty strong too. Guess it's Philly and I'm sure the venue is pricey. Unfortunately, ALL shows suffer as a result of economy, ebay, etc. There are NO decent shows in this area when there used to be TONS of shows. I used to to 6-8 shows a year and quit in 1995. Coincidentally, that was about the same time ebay popped up. As they've grown the shows have declined a similar amount. I'm not sure at $700 for a 10x10 booth at $8/day I could see someone losing money on a show if they had a decent amount of dealers and attendees but those autograph guests can suck the profits right out of a show too depending on ticket sales. Anyway, part of all of it is the ever-changing market and how we buy/sell collectibles. The exclusionary thing is just a little noggin-scratching though. As a promoter, I could see they'd want to protect their turf, even though they bought their turf a couple years ago after someone had run it successfully for many many years. At least you all have shows up there to have to gripe about! Hopefully it all works out one way or the other......

[jbsports33]

Ted,

350.00 is about what we pay for the Boston show for one space (we get two), we stopped traveling outside of New England because the cost of travel and table fees like Valley Forge forced us to stay closer to home. We setup at Reading and Ft Washington with no issues and the room rates seemed a bit better as well. I would like to start traveling back down to PA and other surrounding states, but the cost is too much. Maybe it will get better, so I can see your great selection of T206s again.

Jimmy

[prewarsports]

I dont believe you NEED the autograph guests to have a successful show from the dealers standpoint. If you need to buy a $300 Joe Montana autograph to get you in the door then chances are you arent spending much at the show. If you DO spend a lot at the show then chances are you would have gone without the autograph guests anyways.

As an amatuer economist here is my thinking on marginal costs, If each dealer pays $600 for a table instead of the same $100 the gun dealers get charged then each dealer is kicking in $500 to subsidize the promotors fees toward the autograph guests. If your average dealer makes a 50% profit on his vintage items then EACH dealer has to make an extra $1000 from guys who would not be at the show but for the autograph guests to break even! I find that number to be a longshot. I have yet to meet a single person in the hobby who buys vintage baseball cards and also pays $$$$ to get living players autographs. The two dont really jive together, but even if that guy does exist, he would probably be at the show anyways!

Just my thoughts, and BTW, I think David is a really classy guy and I have no idea about his costs involved in the show and things like that are ALWAYS more expensive then people think.

Rhys

[Jaybird]

I agree that the autograph guests aren't pulling people towards the vintage cards. Maybe they come by a table and see a $5 card that "looks neat" and buy it, but I wouldn't think that's the same guy buying a $500 Collins McCarthy card.

I'd prefer a smaller show with more vintage dealers and people that know when you come there, that's what you'll get. I'd be extremely loyal to a show like that and think a lot of other people would as well if you knew you were going to see great dealers and an interesting assortment of vintage.

Also, as I've said before, who needs Sunday at a show? Let's save everyone time and money and bag Sunday and it'll be cheaper for everyone.

For Hunt, I think he caters to both groups which is why he does the autographs. Those people bid in his auctions as do the purely vintage collectors. So, he needs to do both. But, Rhys makes a good point, why should the vintage dealers be subsidizing the autograph guests if the return isn't likely to come from those same guests?

[wonkaticket]

I dont believe you NEED the autograph guests to have a successful show from the dealers standpoint. If you need to buy a $300 Joe Montana autograph to get you in the door then chances are you arent spending much at the show. If you DO spend a lot at the show then chances are you would have gone without the autograph guests anyways.

As an amatuer economist here is my thinking on marginal costs, If each dealer pays $600 for a table instead of the same $100 the gun dealers get charged then each dealer is kicking in $500 to subsidize the promotors fees toward the autograph guests. If your average dealer makes a 50% profit on his vintage items then EACH dealer has to make an extra $1000 from guys who would not be at the show but for the autograph guests to break even! I find that number to be a longshot. I have yet to meet a single person in the hobby who buys vintage baseball cards and also pays $$$$ to get living players autographs. The two dont really jive together, but even if that guy does exist, he would probably be at the show anyways!

Just my thoughts, and BTW, I think David is a really classy guy and I have no idea about his costs involved in the show and things like that are ALWAYS more expensive then people think.

Rhys

100% agree, I spend a fair amount on cards and never once gone to a show to get an autograph or been drawn to a show for autographs.

John

[Fred]

I've never been drawn to a show for the autographs...

I do remember a Fort Washington show I attended years back. I thought it was just a good as a National in terms of quality of dealers and inventory of vintage material.

You guys on the east coast have the best shows. On the west coast we get garbage... (unless it's a National and there haven't been many of those in Anaheim).

[slidekellyslide]

I've never been drawn to a show for the autographs...

I do remember a Fort Washington show I attended years back. I thought it was just a good as a National in terms of quality of dealers and inventory of vintage material.

You guys on the east coast have the best shows. On the west coast we get garbage... (unless it's a National and there haven't been many of those in Anaheim).

I'll bet you have better shows that what we get here in Nebraska. :)

[HRBAKER]

I'll bet you have better shows that what we get here in Nebraska. :)

Dan I bet if someone thought they could get $600 a table you'd have a show or two. :)

[Jewish-collector]

I dont believe you NEED the autograph guests to have a successful show from the dealers standpoint. If you need to buy a $300 Joe Montana autograph to get you in the door then chances are you arent spending much at the show. If you DO spend a lot at the show then chances are you would have gone without the autograph guests anyways.

As an amatuer economist here is my thinking on marginal costs, If each dealer pays $600 for a table instead of the same $100 the gun dealers get charged then each dealer is kicking in $500 to subsidize the promotors fees toward the autograph guests. If your average dealer makes a 50% profit on his vintage items then EACH dealer has to make an extra $1000 from guys who would not be at the show but for the autograph guests to break even! I find that number to be a longshot. I have yet to meet a single person in the hobby who buys vintage baseball cards and also pays $$$$ to get living players autographs. The two dont really jive together, but even if that guy does exist, he would probably be at the show anyways!

Just my thoughts, and BTW, I think David is a really classy guy and I have no idea about his costs involved in the show and things like that are ALWAYS more expensive then people think.

Rhys

I, too, agree. There are collectors for every part of the sports card & memorabilia hobby. There are a bunch of collectors only into the shiny stuff. Some only into autographs. Some only into game-worn memorabilia. So on and so forth. So, it depends on what your focus is. Here it's vintage baseball cards.

[slidekellyslide]

Dan I bet if someone thought they could get $600 a table you'd have a show or two. :)

I'd be running it. :D

[bh3443]

In my thirty plus years of running decent local shows I can honestly state that the quality of your show arrives from having good honest fair dealers with decent inventory to draw customers.
Anything else can be considered an added attraction or de-traction!

I lost money three times in three decades of promoting shows. Once it was due to a ridiculous insurance bond I needed in addition to my normal one, and the other two we're because of my poor choice in two autograph guests. One player just didn't draw people and then there was Brad Park walking out of my show 20 minutes after I paid him.

If some one tells you they are going to "water the lawn", don't assume it means they are using the restroom!

I sincerely hope every one can find a comfortable way to enjoy our hobby and grind out a living with out the drama. I always noticed some collectors were jealous of the dealers and some of the dealers were jealous of me the promoter.

Well, this promoter is now happy simply to be here enjoying life as a collector in what is my version of card collecting paradise: net 54.

At the end of the day that's all we have are memories. I'm proud to say that my best hobby memories are of the time spent with people on this board.

Happy Holidays,

Bill Hedin

[Sportsnutcards]

They aren't paying anything for the autograph guests. The autograph guests are done by MAB who pays them for part of the show. The show has gone downhill because collectors aren't motivated to come to the show to deal with the same full-time professional dealers who do the same show circuit and who now have most of their inventories online. The smaller part-time dealers have been completly priced out of the show. You need to have a mix of the big time guys and the small fry dealers to keep collectors anticipating finding the diamond in the rough or just the oppurtunity to see something different. Since the move from Reading, the show is down at least 40 dealers.

[wonkaticket]

Was I the only one who got this e-card? :D

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/giant/Card.jpg

[Leon]

Was I the only one who got this e-card? :D

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/giant/Card.jpg

That's the 'ole John we have come to know and love.