Anybody else sick of MLB?

[HercDriver]

I'm a huge Ron Santo fan and read the Santo HOF thread with interest, but never replied. I typed out about five different replies about why Santo belonged in the Hall, but never hit send for whatever reason.

Now Ryan Braun, the MVP, tests positive for drugs BEFORE he won the MVP! I know baseball has had it's eras - bigots like Anson and Cobb, gamblers like Speaker, Cobb, and the Black Sox, drunks in 50s, LSD in the sixties, and steroids now. MLB always works through it, I guess. But it really makes me appreciate a guy like Santo, who dealt with diabetes his entire career and loved the game for what it was. Mark Grace was another guy like that - those are my HOFers. You can have the rest...I'm done with these guys like A-Rod, Bonds, and Co.

Good night, Jose Cardenal, wherever you are...

Take Care,
Geno

[old-baseball]

As far as I'm concerned it's still 755/61.

[HRBAKER]

Where you find massive amounts of money, there to you will often find bad behavior. Is anyone surprised? Maybe it's a false positive. :cool:

[TT40391]

I agree with this good sir. I appreciate the players that played because they loved it. The first player I ever collected was Hoyt Wilhelm for the same reasons you listed above.

Tony

[drc]

They are behind as far as testing goes, but in the NFL if you fail a drug test you are ineligible to win any year end awards. Happened because Shawn Meriweather nearly won the Defensive Player of the Year in the season he was suspended for three games.

[mannybb24]

I can't wait until they start testing for HGH. There's a reason why the Players Association in the NFL backed out of that one when they were suppose to start testing this year.

[drc]

It's safe to say there's a lot of PED use in the NFL. Anyone who says otherwise is full of it.

[alanu]

Problem is, my understanding is there isn't a definitive test for HGH.

Steroids have been around for a long time, so whose to say some of the players in the 70's weren't using them too.

The players taking the PED's might have just as much love for the game as anyone else, it has more to do with what you will do to be able to play that game at the highest level.

[novakjr]

I'm perfectly willing to wait and see what happens with the Braun thing, before making judgement...Obviously due to the past 20+ years we're all more that willing to assume the worst, and to an extent, I believe there would some justification in that assumption. He may or may not be in the wrong here, but we've gotta keep level heads and wait for everything to come out.

Having said that, he was probably using..

[Batter67up]

It is really amazing how these players continue to try and find a way to cheat and think they are not going to get caught. So can we call Matt Kemp the 2011 NL MVP?

[HRBAKER]

I'm perfectly willing to wait and see what happens with the Braun thing, before making judgement...Obviously due to the past 20+ years we're all more that willing to assume the worst, and to an extent, I believe there would some justification in that assumption. He may or may not be in the wrong here, but we've gotta keep level heads and wait for everything to come out.

Having said that, he was probably using..

David,
It would certainly be nice for that to be the case for a change.

[YankeeCollector]

As far as I'm concerned it's still 755/61.

Agreed

[ChiefBenderForever]

Maybe he thought it was a vitamin supplement and didn't know what he was taking.

[alanu]

Maybe he thought it was a vitamin supplement and didn't know what he was taking.

That's the standard excuse of all the guys who get caught. They have enough money to do some testing before they start taking any supplements.

[HercDriver]

He failed the first test, then a subsequent test, according to ESPN. So yep, maybe it's not real...


I'm perfectly willing to wait and see what happens with the Braun thing, before making judgement...Obviously due to the past 20+ years we're all more that willing to assume the worst, and to an extent, I believe there would some justification in that assumption. He may or may not be in the wrong here, but we've gotta keep level heads and wait for everything to come out.

Having said that, he was probably using..

[calvindog]

I really like Ryan Braun. I really hope this isn't true.

[novakjr]

He failed the first test, then a subsequent test, according to ESPN. So yep, maybe it's not real...

The subsequent test, was just a second test on the original sample, to see if it was a natural variant or synthetic. Anything could've happened.. Like I said though, "he was probably using", I just wanna wait until everything's sorted out to make a definitive judgement..

[byrone]

I visited the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown last month. For me, being an active fan of major league baseball ended with the strike in 1994. At the HOF, I would carefully look at historic displays, then come across a more recent artifact and move right along without giving it any notice. I don't want to be cynical, but they (players and owners) lost me in '94. In it's place, old time baseball, for all its faults and follies, takes the place of todays games. I don't know todays players, even the big stars. This years Cy Young winners or MVP's...not a clue. And that's unfortunate.

[fkw]

If those chain smoking taters w/gravy eatin party to all hours daily during the season alcoholic greenie poppers would have lifted a weight during their career, maybe those numbers they put up might still stand.


I like all Eras of Baseball, they all have their good and bad sides...


PS Im 45 yrsold 210#, and can still do 20 pullups and 100 straight pushups.... (did it today) But I also shop only at healthfood stores and farmers markets and do heavy yardwork daily...
wonder if DiMaggio Ruth or Williams could do 20 pullups at 25 yrsold let alone 40??? I wouldnt think so looking at their bodies... IM sure Foxx could before he hit the bottle...

[alanu]

The real test will be when Braun comes back and if his HR production goes down or if he starts getting injured.

[HercDriver]

Maybe he is innocent...they should have just told the MVP voters that he failed his test, but he's appealing it. I wonder how that would have changed the voting. Why was it withheld?

The subsequent test, was just a second test on the original sample, to see if it was a natural variant or synthetic. Anything could've happened.. Like I said though, "he was probably using", I just wanna wait until everything's sorted out to make a definitive judgement..

[DixieBaseball]

I love MLB. I am sick of cheaters in MLB. This can be said for NFL and some other sports. What should bother anyone that pays for a ticket to a game or spends money towards professional sports or has a son playing sports is they have to compete against these cheaters and perhaps lose out at different levels in ball, whether it is high school, college, minors, or pro level. I would love to see all the major sports get uber serious about ridding cheaters from sports (Specifically, those that take hgh, drug enhancers for performance) There is nothing like seeing a natural athlete do their thing. I am hopeful Braun is still that athlete. If not, lump him in with Bonds, A-Roid, Sosa, etc. - These guys mean nothing to me.

[Fred]

Perhaps the test results were withheld from the MVP voters because Braun indicated it was an error and they didn't want to hose him over for the MVP award (if it was an error). If it's not an error then they just hosed over Matt Kemp. I'd have voted for Kemp if I were voting. I just hope that there was an error. Baseball doesn't need anymore of this crap.

[3-2-count]

Anybody else sick of MLB?

Yep, have been for quite some time now.

[drc]

This is exactly why I only watch track & field. No drugs.

[YankeeCollector]

This is exactly why I only watch track & field. No drugs.

lol

[Bigdaddy]

Perhaps, just perhaps, the voters did not know about Braun failing the test because the commissioner of MLB used to own the Brewers.

With that said, I still am a fan of MLB, and MiLB, and baseball in general. Related to what another poster said, it is all driven by money and ego. The same thing that happened to this hobby in the 80's and into the 90's - folks (and companies) saw a potential for profit, and tried to abuse the system to their advantage. Its still going on today with the proliferation of fake cards and autographs. But that does not mean that I'm going to quit the hobby. If you watched the World Series this year and those 7 games did not get your juices flowing, then you should check your pulse.

[drc]

It's the writer's association not MLB that votes and gives the award. The voters may have had no knowledge of the test, and MLB can't make the writer's association take it back.

[Ease]

I like all Eras of Baseball, they all have their good and bad sides...
+1

The system is flawed, guys basically juice to a 3-1 testosterone to epitestosterone level. The test doesn't come back positive until its 4-1. Just try to enjoy baseball for what it is...
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tVfnAZBOT5U" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="590" height="350"></embed>

[Clutch-Hitter]

"Nails" is the person I most remember from the 90's. He was a little sherman tank running around shouting at everybody. This is him on a 1988 card and a 1993 card. I figured something was going on back then and not just because of Dykstra, there were several suspicious looking guys. It seems like it would be tough for a man to maintain a physique like that lifting weights while enduring a grueling 162 game season. If I'm not mistaken, those drugs can serve as injury prevention, lengthen a career, etc. I'm not saying Dykstra did it, but I did in fact think it.

I watched McGwire in '98 in Atlanta, got there early for BP. The man was a beast out there, a giant compared to the others, and he was hitting BP balls in places no other players were coming close to. It seemed like he viewed the field as we would if we were hitting on a 200 foot little league field - get it in the air and its gone. But the thing is, I would guess that a very, very large percentage of players were using. If so, they were all playing on the same field equally. Even a non drug using McGwire could have done amazing things, but the thing was, the drugs helped him through the season,and he usually couldn't play a full season. I have a McGwire bat from the 2000 season, when he hit more than thirty home runs before the half way point. There are red ball stitches that remained inside the deep seam impressions after impact:

All the drug use was revealed when? After 2001? I've been sick of it since '01 and Bonds, and I have only good memories of the 98 season, regardless. I was sick of the NFL when Terrell Owens pulled a sharpie out of his sock in the end zone, signed a football and gave it to an adult friend of his. It was disgusting. I'd rather watch McGwire than even a drug free Terrell Owens type.

Santo is in, so its Dale Murphy's turn. Murph makes appearances and speaks against drug use, and he says it as if it was in baseball while he was playing. Injuries definitely shortened his career and hurt his number during the last few years.

Almost forgot (not my cards):

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm25/gbmartin34/Card%20Collection/Net%2054/1988Dykstra.jpghttp://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm25/gbmartin34/Card%20Collection/Net%2054/1993Dykstra.jpg

And Frank, Ruth, Dimaggio....were elite athletes, weights or no weights. IMO, a player's abilities should only be compared to players from the same generation. Ruth was above and beyond all other players during his generation. He's the all-time greatest IMO, period, no matter what A-Rod does. Cobb was the greatest of his generation IMO. A different method of keeping who has what records could alleviate a lot of the controversy, such as dead ball to live, post dead ball to pre-war, war to 1990, 1990 and drugs to present.

When it comes to living out childhood dreams and knowing everybody else is likely using, a man is going to do what he has to do to stay there...or get there. And managers want their big dollar guys to be healthy, not saying they knew or anything as I didn't follow the drama, but it just seems like common sense. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against it, but at this point, its impossible to watch a game and not wonder, examine physiques, etc. The smart guys probably don't lift weights while using. Its going to be very hard to eliminate it and the variations.

The recent drug use got Santo in, IMO. Make two hall of fames. One for pre-1990 and 1990 and later.

[dabigyankeeman]

I dont see Braun blatantly doing drugs, i bet he took some supplement or medication that raised his testosterone level and i dont believe he is a druggie. However, even if he took the stuff unknowingly he could still be suspended. Interesting how so many are rushing to condemn him on most forums i am on, what happened to innocent until proven totally guilty? I think he is a good guy and that will come out in the end (hopefully).

As to the MVP, when was the test done? Even if he was guilty, is it possible that he started right near the end of the year? Also, to those who say Kemp should now be the MVP, when was his last test, who is to say he is clean?

And going way back, who knows what was in those hot dogs The Babe was eating!!!!!!

[obcbobd]

I love the game, but its played by people with personal faults. I can overlook that.

I mean we collect cards from much more relatively worse times in MLB history;

The Color Barrier

Black Sox Scandal

Almost total control of a player's future by greedy owners. Imagine signing up with an employer at 17 or 18 and never being able to work at your profession for anyone else. At any time your employer can force (via trade) you to move across the country to work for another team with you having no say - ever.

And a well deserved enshrinement to Santo.

[HercDriver]

The "innocent, until proven guilty" works in most venues...but baseball used that up long ago...

Cheers,
Geno

I dont see Braun blatantly doing drugs, i bet he took some supplement or medication that raised his testosterone level and i dont believe he is a druggie. However, even if he took the stuff unknowingly he could still be suspended. Interesting how so many are rushing to condemn him on most forums i am on, what happened to innocent until proven totally guilty? I think he is a good guy and that will come out in the end (hopefully).

As to the MVP, when was the test done? Even if he was guilty, is it possible that he started right near the end of the year? Also, to those who say Kemp should now be the MVP, when was his last test, who is to say he is clean?

And going way back, who knows what was in those hot dogs The Babe was eating!!!!!!

[Clutch-Hitter]

Regarding players from different sports that I've seen:

My favorite basketball player:Michael Jordan

I'm not a basketball fan, but I watched nearly all of Michael Jordan's games with the Bulls. There was no telling what he was going to do day in and day out, and he was a team player. I was playing ball at Birmingham Southern when he joined the Barons. He bought our soccer team an incredible bus for road trips.

My favorite football player: Joe Montana, and a close second: Barry Sanders - after an incredible touchdown, hand the ball to the ref, back to the sideline.

Favorite Baseball player: Fred McGriff - Similar to Sanders

Not sure what the point is in mentioning that, unless it was to say that I never saw Santo play and have no perspective except for stats alone, and we all know stats aren't everything in a team sports.

[Exhibitman]

Anybody else sick of MLB?

Yep, have been for quite some time now.


Yes indeed. Between the PEDs and the ridiculous cost of attending a game if you want to sit anywhere except the prison yard atmosphere of the cheap seats, I have had a waning interest in the modern game for quite some time.

[CubsFanCurt]

I'm with you on this Geno. I'm sick of all the PED's and HGH's and all the other crap. I think Andre Dawson summed it up best at his induction. Anyone that takes that stuff knows it's illegal and knows the concequences. If anybody could have benifitted from HGH, it's Hawk.

And a double thumbs up to your support of Mark Grace! He was old school IMO and I miss that

[teetwoohsix]

Here we go again. Saw this last night on ESPN about Braun and what a let down. But- I also do believe in "innocent until proven guilty", and hope this really was a case of a "false positive". Time will tell........

You would think they would start adding a clause to EVERY contract stating that if you are truly confirmed to have used/or are using PED's during your contract that your salary be retroactively reduced to $35,000.00 per year. Bring their a$$es back to the 50's and 60's where players had to work regular jobs in the off season just to get by- then maybe this crap would stop, with the fear of the gravy train being taken away..........

Sincerely, Clayton

[tbob]

Ted Williams was a fighter pilot in both WW2 and the Korean War. No telling how many homeruns he would have hit had he not volunteered for his country. I disagree with you Frank, I think Ted would have been in excellent physical condition to do all the things he did.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Seriously? He tested positive for PEDs and we're not supposed to pass judgement just because he's one of the game's most well like players? Come on! BTW, no player has EVER successfully appealed a positive test.

[HercDriver]

Yep, it's a drug test - either it's there or it's not. I was a pilot in the Air Force for 20 years and had to pee in a lot of bottles. I can't imagine how an "appeal" would go in the General's office. Then again, our union wasn't so good...we always had to work nights, in pretty dire places!

Take Care,
Geno

[WhenItWasAHobby]

This scandal is particularly disturbing for several reasons. First, from what I've read, Braun was one of the most outspoken players against PEDs. Second, I heard on ESPN this morning this failed test was known a month prior to Braun being voted MVP. Of course Bud Selig is the owner of Braun's team and is also the commissioner. Selig needs to publicly defend this clear lapse in timely punishment and if the failed tests indeed prove to be true, Braun's MVP award should be revoked.

And in response to the topic in general, yes, I'm very indifferent about MLB anymore which is sad because 2011 was the best playoff series in recent memory. Sadly, MLB keeps finding new ways to alienate fans.

[Bigdaddy]

MLB will always be behind every mess, cleaning up the spilt milk, as long as Bud is commissioner. He's the worst commissioner in all of sports, and the worst that baseball has had as long as I can remember (back to Bowie Kuhn).

I will give him credit though on the new labor agreement and getting that done before the old one runs out.

Other than that, all he has done is react to problems that others have seen coming for years.

[Ericc22]

Interesting comments going on in this thread.

For me, I love MLB. My kids (ages 11 and 12) are huge Braun fans and were really unhappy about this. My 11-year old must have asked me 12 times today if there were any updates and if he was innocent. ("Say it ain't so Joe....")

And while this stinks, and I hate the steroids and the way it is all handled, I will continue to love this game despite this. I agree with other posters - baseball of every era has had its issues. I will just choose to focus on the last day of the season, and the great playoffs and World Series.

And isn't it a bit of a metaphor for life? There is some yin and some yang, and you just have to choose what to focus on. I wish my kids weren't disappointed but it is reality. That's a lesson. We are disappointed about Braun at my house, but rest assured, we'll be looking for 4 tickets for opening day at Yankee Stadium next year!

Eric

[Runscott]

I still love going to games. No other live professional entertainment experience beats it.

But regarding Braun and those who are making excuses for him - this is a serious thing that all the players are aware of, and have been for years, yet many of them continue to try to wiggle by it. The ones who have any brains are doing anything they can to avoid testing positive, and I don't think avoiding testing positive is hard to do if you simply avoid the items that will cause it. If you have any doubts, just don't do it. Sure, he's got his reasons - haven't they all? I hope they are legit.

[dabigyankeeman]

Seriously? He tested positive for PEDs and we're not supposed to pass judgement just because he's one of the game's most well like players? Come on! BTW, no player has EVER successfully appealed a positive test.

Ha, you hit the nail on the head. I only posted that because outside of my New York team players, he is my favorite player. I was grasping at straws trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

This morning i read that his testosterone level was about twice what any other test has ever shown though, so either he took some crazy stuff or maybe possibly hopefully something is wacko. :D

[mr2686]

The MLB channel yesterday was saying that inside sources are saying that it was not PED's but something else that's on the banned substance list. Take that with a grain of salt.

[bosoxfan]

[QUOTE=Ericc22;946770]Interesting comments going on in this thread.

My kids (ages 11 and 12) are huge Braun fans and were really unhappy about this. My 11-year old must have asked me 12 times today if there were any updates and if he was innocent. ("Say it ain't so Joe....")


This is the saddest aspect of this whole mess. It's so unfortunate.

[MilBraves]

Just to clear up something that was mentioned in an earlier post. Bud Selig is not an owner of the Milwaukee Brewers. Mark Attanasio purchased the team back in 2004.

[ullmandds]

Huh...I find this whole thread...interesting?! Base ball is the grandest of all of America's games...quite possibly the worlds...in my opinion...it's history is rich...older than most other sports...yet riddled with controversy.

Sounds kinda similar to the hobby...of collecting BB cards. Many years ago...the hobby was about the joy of collecting...the thrill of the hunt...and the comeraderie amongst fellow collectors. Then...money got in the way...kinda like the game of baseball.

And when money got in the way of baseball...players started looking for an advantage to make more money...and to pad their statistics.

And when money got in the way of the hobby of collecting bb cards...and other bb collectibles...the crooks put their best foots forward by:

-trimming cards
-adding color to cards
-ironing cards
-stretching cards
-Wiwagging cards
-adding paper to cords
-removing color/type from cards
-basically creating fake cards

...all in the name to "pad" the grades...to ultimately make them more money.

Like Baseball...this hobby is great...will always be great in many ways...and will always be flawed as well...like everything in life...but to say you're sick of MLB...that to me...says you never really loved it in the first place...it was never in your blood.

Baseball will always be in my blood...as will this hobby whether I'm directly involved with it...or not. No matter what "baseball" does...I will always love it...as it is the best game there ever was...and will ever be.

I'd much rather direct my hatred towards the banks...corporations...the likes of Madolf...and our shit ass gov't!

[ChiefBenderForever]

I'd much rather direct my hatred towards the banks...corporations...the likes of Madolf...and our shit ass gov't!

You want to hold the institutions and people who run our country up to the same standards as athletes ?

[Runscott]

Huh...I find this whole thread...interesting?! Base ball is the grandest of all of America's games...quite possibly the worlds...in my opinion...it's history is rich...older than most other sports...yet riddled with controversy.

Sounds kinda similar to the hobby...of collecting BB cards. Many years ago...the hobby was about the joy of collecting...the thrill of the hunt...and the comeraderie amongst fellow collectors. Then...money got in the way...kinda like the game of baseball.

And when money got in the way of baseball...players started looking for an advantage to make more money...and to pad their statistics.

And when money got in the way of the hobby of collecting bb cards...and other bb collectibles...the crooks put their best foots forward by:

-trimming cards
-adding color to cards
-ironing cards
-stretching cards
-Wiwagging cards
-adding paper to cords
-removing color/type from cards
-basically creating fake cards

...all in the name to "pad" the grades...to ultimately make them more money.

Like Baseball...this hobby is great...will always be great in many ways...and will always be flawed as well...like everything in life...but to say you're sick of MLB...that to me...says you never really loved it in the first place...it was never in your blood.

Baseball will always be in my blood...as will this hobby whether I'm directly involved with it...or not. No matter what "baseball" does...I will always love it...as it is the best game there ever was...and will ever be.

I'd much rather direct my hatred towards the banks...corporations...the likes of Madolf...and our shit ass gov't!

Peter - very insightful post. I would go further and say that both reflect changes in our entire society - what's accepted and what's not, morals, etc. In my opinion it's all heading sort of downhill ala-Rome - while we are making improvements in a lot of areas (like civil rights, more democratic governments, etc.), hand-in-hand with this is more greed, moral decay, legalized corruption, etc. Obviously most wouldn't agree with me - if they did, it wouldn't be happening.

[barrysloate]

I agree with you Scott. It seems like wherever you turn fraud and corruption are part of business as usual. Just look at what's happening in our hobby- go over to the memorabilia side and read the thread about the bad Babe Ruth autographed balls. Pretty depressing stuff.

[alanu]

For better or worse, I think the technology, the media and the availability of information make things seem like they are getting worse, when in reality fraud, cheating, etc. has been going on forever.

As far as the media, they latch onto all of the bad stories, and rarely do you hear about the good deeds done by professional athletes.

[Kzoo]

...but to say you're sick of MLB...that to me...says you never really loved it in the first place...it was never in your blood.

Baseball will always be in my blood...as will this hobby whether I'm directly involved with it...or not. No matter what "baseball" does...I will always love it...as it is the best game there ever was...and will ever be.

+1. Exactly how I feel, Peter. How can anyone not love baseball after watching Game 6 of the World Series this year?

Matt

[ullmandds]

"You want to hold the institutions and people who run our country up to the same standards as athletes ?"

Johny...the people who run this country and business institutions have proven themselves to be the scum of the earth...greedy muther f?#$ers! Not much difference between some greedy athletes and them except their behavior affects many many more peoples lives then athletes!

Runscott...I agree with you wholeheartedly!

[Runscott]

For better or worse, I think the technology, the media and the availability of information make things seem like they are getting worse, when in reality fraud, cheating, etc. has been going on forever.

As far as the media, they latch onto all of the bad stories, and rarely do you hear about the good deeds done by professional athletes.

At least here in Seattle, they love running stories about the great things that athletes are doing. Some of it is quite impressive, and it gives me a great feeling about the sport. You are right - with all the scandals, it's easy to forget about the athletes who are trying to be role models and help their communities.

[edhans]

I would avoid a rush to judgement on this one. The first test supposedly showed testosterone levels "twice as high as any previously recorded". the second test, requested by Braun, presumably on a different sample, showed no trace whatsoever of abnormal levels. Braun's reps claim that it would have been impossible for the testosterone levels to return to normal in so short a time span. It's hard for me to believe that with so much at stake and with the rigorous testing in place now, that any athlete would knowingly put a banned substance in his/her body. Stay tuned...

[dstudeba]

Baseball doesn't have rigorous testing by any stretch. Cyclists and Olympic athletes make far less money, have much stricter testing and they still dope.

And people think ballplayers don't dope?

[edhans]

Dan,
I'm not naive enough to suggest that there aren't any players who try to cheat. If Braun did indeed knowingly take PEDs, it was a very poorly thought out choice. A young, established star with a lucrative multi year contract (or two) in his future stood very little to gain by such a course. Just wanted to point out that there remains a few conflicting facts that will need to be reconciled before we pass judgement.

Best Regards,

Ed

[alanu]

Baseball doesn't have rigorous testing by any stretch. Cyclists and Olympic athletes make far less money, have much stricter testing and they still dope.

And people think ballplayers don't dope?

Cyclists and Olympic athletes are subject to a 2 year ban on the first offense and they still keep doping and getting caught so I'm sure with the less stringent testing in baseball and football, some players are still going to juice up and try to get away with it.

[Runscott]

Cyclists and Olympic athletes are subject to a 2 year ban on the first offense and they still keep doping and getting caught so I'm sure with the less stringent testing in baseball and football, some players are still going to juice up and try to get away with it.

Interestingly, some cyclists and runners claim they do it because they couldn't be competitive in their sports if they didn't. No condoning, but hard to argue with such logic: dope up and be an athlete, or don't dope up and work at Burger King.

But guys like Clemens, Bonds, Canseco, etc. (the elite) - they could have played clean and still made a good living. With them it was about fame and/or money, not survival doing something they loved.

[alanu]

Interestingly, some cyclists and runners claim they do it because they couldn't be competitive in their sports if they didn't. No condoning, but hard to argue with such logic: dope up and be an athlete, or don't dope up and work at Burger King.

But guys like Clemens, Bonds, Canseco, etc. (the elite) - they could have played clean and still made a good living. With them it was about fame and/or money, not survival doing something they loved.

I agree, not that it's right, but it's easier to see why some guy would take something if it was the difference from being a lifetime Triple A guy or a major leaguer, but with the aforementioned players they could have been major leaguers without juicing up.

[dstudeba]

Ed,

I agree that it doesn't make sense for Braun to do it. Bonds didn't anger me as much as a borderline player taking drugs because Bonds didn't take away someone's job, he was awesome with or without drugs.
The point I am trying to make is that MLB wants people to believe that the game is clean now because of the testing, which I believe is a farce.

- Dan

[edhans]

Agreed on most points, Dan. I think the game is cleaner than 10-15 years ago, which is probably not saying much. More still needs to be done.

[Leon]

Agreed on most points, Dan. I think the game is cleaner than 10-15 years ago, which is probably not saying much. More still needs to be done.

And in relating this to the vintage card hobby I do think it's cleaner, especially with respect to shilling and other types of operational fraud, than it was 5-15 yrs ago. Still probably a ways to go but with law enforcement taking an active role in the hobby I do feel things are much better. I don't collect pointy cornered cards though :).

[steve B]

Baseball doesn't have rigorous testing by any stretch. Cyclists and Olympic athletes make far less money, have much stricter testing and they still dope.

And people think ballplayers don't dope?

That was one of my thoughts when Selig was claiming baseball had the most rigorous testing program. Riders in the Tour de France get urine tested nearly every stage, and the stage winners get blood tested. And there is a 0 tolerance policy -Eat a poppy seed bagel, it's a positive test for opiates and a 2 year ban unless you've got proof like a breakfast reciept.

That's not to say that cycling is clean, or really ever has been. Guys who rode in the 50's and 60's openly admit getting amphetamines duringthe race, and 70's riders have said the early hematocrit testing for blood doping was ignored. (max level was 50, the blood would be taken and an hour later the lab guy would tel the team "49.5, you're OK" - one guy thinks that was a team average)



What's fascinating is some of the non PED performances. Jim Thome comes to mind in Baseball.
And the international cycling federation released a list showing the top riders and the level to which they were suspect - yes, that's right suspect. Have the wrong doctor, ride for the wrong team, miss a bit of paperwork or train in the wrong place with the wrong guys and you get tested more often.

One name stood out - Fabian Cancellara. Listed as absolutely NOT suspect. Consider that he wins time trials, and event practiacally made for PEDs by huge margins like nearly a minute and a half over the 2nd place rider in the 09 world championship. That's a miute and a half over the second best clean rider, and much more over guys who have been caught doping. Id have to consider those wins to be some of the most dominant performances in any sport, maybe similar to a clean pitcher holding a juiced bonds to 0 for 40.

On another note, I sometimes think that the test results are the result of sloppy lab work. Floyd landis was negative one day, positive for Testoserone the next than negative again. And lost his appeal.

Steve B

[Runscott]

On another note, I sometimes think that the test results are the result of sloppy lab work. Floyd landis was negative one day, positive for Testoserone the next than negative again. And lost his appeal.

Steve B

...then admitted guilt. The system worked in his case.

[Republicaninmass]

This is exactly why I only watch track & field. No drugs.


and female body building

[Runscott]

and female body building

Don't get me excited.

What did the horse say to Sarah Jessica Parker?

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I have read all the posts blasting the game and its' players and appreciate everyone's opinions.

I was also impressed by the posters notes of his own physical prowess, it puts my 57 year old body to shame. I have read nine books on Babe Ruth and I can assure you that he was one of the prime physical specimens of his day, some actually said a freak of nature.

When the Marines tested Ted Williams he broke every record they had for vision and reflexes. Both Mantle and Maris were considered athletic marvels in their regions.

As far as testing goes, MLB's program has some holes but it is so far ahead of the other pro sports leagues it is embarassing. The NFL refuses to test for anything that it thinks it will find. Look at the size of the players and their DEATH rate before the age of 50, it is like watching the ancient gladiators when you watch a game. The NHL basically does not test for anything, period. The NBA would be down to a dozen players if they just tested for grass!

I enjoy the history of the game and while I love reading about the great players I am not blind to their warts. Through a several decade involvement with SABR there are few days that pass when I am not researching the game and its' past.

My collecting interests parallel my love for the history of the game.

Much of how I respect and enjoy it is best expressed in a poem by Ernie Harwell that I think and hope encompasses the scope of the game;

"Baseball is the President tossing out the first ball of the season and a scrubby schoolboy playing catch with his dad on a Mississippi farm. A tall, thin old man waving a scorecard from the corner of his dugout. That's baseball. And so is big, fat guy with a bulbous nose running out one of his 714 home runs.

There's a man in Mobile who remebers that Honus Wagner hit a triple in Pittsburgh (then) 46 years ago. That's baseball. So is the scout reporting that a sixteen year old pitcher in Cheyenne is a coming Walter Johnson. Baseball is a spirited race of man against man, reflex against reflex. A game of inches. Every skill is measured. Every heroic, every failing is seen and cheered or booed. And then it becomes a statistic.

In baseball democracy shines its' clearest. The only race that matters is the race to the bag. The creed is the rulebook. Color merely something to distinguish one team's uniform from another.

Baseball is a rookie. His experience no bigger than the lump in his throat as he begins fullfillment of his dream. It's a veteran too, a tired old man of 35 hoping that those aching muscles can pull him through another sweltering August. Nicknames are baseball, names like Zeke and Pie and Kiki and Home Run and Cracker and Dizzy and Dazzy.

Baseball is the cool, clear eyes of Rogers Hornsby. The flashing spikes of Ty Cobb and an over aged pixie named Rabbit Maranville.

Baseball is just a game, as simple as a ball and bat, yet as complex as the American spirit it symbolizes. A sport, a business and sometimes almost even a religion.

Why the fairy tale of Willie Mays making a brilliant World Series catch. And then dashing off to play stick ball in the street with his pals. That's baseball. So is the husky voice of a doomed Lou Gehrig saying "I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."

Baseball is cigar smoke, hot roasted peanuts, The Sporting News, ladies day, "Down in front", Take Me Out to the Ballgame and the Star Spangled Banner.

Baseball is a tongue-tied kid from Georgia growing up to be an announcer and praising the Lord for showing him the way to Cooperstown. This is a game for America. Still a game for America, this baseball!"

I stop by to see my 93 year old Dad everyday after work and we watch the news and talk baseball. Here in the south you grow up playing football and both Dad and I did that into college. We seldom talk about the game other than a score or what is on TV. Even now in December he talks about baseball trades, awards and other "Hot Stove" items including Ryan Braun.

Baseball has its' flaws but it is still the best thing going. Very few players are crippled for life when they leave the game. Very few baseball players wind up beating their wives or physically hurting others away from the game. Not perfect but still ok with me!

[dabigyankeeman]

and female body building

Dont forget womans beach volleyball!!!!!! :D

[steve B]

...then admitted guilt. The system worked in his case.

His admission is somewhat controversial. The backstory is that he wanted back into the bigtime, and went public with a boatload of accusations that only worked if he admitted to doping himself. He had served his suspension, admitted to doping to back up accusations against a team that wouldn't hire him and a race promoter who wouldn't allow him to enter, and wasn't signed by anyone for the next season. Not the smartest move.

And they think baseball can get political.

Cycling also has an odd culture of forgivness for those who admit doping without incriminating others or appealing. The Pro ranks are full of guys who admitted doping took a year or two off and came back.

I ran across a reference to The Cardinals and Browns using some performance enhancer prior to 1945. Just a passing reference, but still interesting.

Steve B

[Runscott]

His admission is somewhat controversial. The backstory is that he wanted back into the bigtime, and went public with a boatload of accusations that only worked if he admitted to doping himself. He had served his suspension, admitted to doping to back up accusations against a team that wouldn't hire him and a race promoter who wouldn't allow him to enter, and wasn't signed by anyone for the next season. Not the smartest move.

And they think baseball can get political.

Cycling also has an odd culture of forgivness for those who admit doping without incriminating others or appealing. The Pro ranks are full of guys who admitted doping took a year or two off and came back.

I ran across a reference to The Cardinals and Browns using some performance enhancer prior to 1945. Just a passing reference, but still interesting.

Steve B

Yes, he continued to scheme and lie. I completely understand the cycling culture, training at one time with 'much better than average' triathletes who were very much in to discussing these things. In a sport that has credibility issues, Landis was/is considered one of the least credible.