Trimmed cards gaining acceptance?

[Runscott]

Excuse me while I think back on the 'good old days' (6 years ago) when trimmed cards were frowned upon. You rarely saw a trimmed high-grade card sold by a major auction house unless it was in a PSA holder, and you rarely (perhaps never?) saw them selling raw trimmed commons. I was once surprised when SGC returned a card to me with a reject slip that said 'evidence of trimming' (no slab).

Now they slab trimmed cards as 'AUTH' and PSA 'AUTH' slabbed cards actually say 'Trimmed' on the label. When did this start?

Are more trimmed cards ending up in high-grade slabs now? (It seems like it to me). Are the trimmers getting more sophisticated, the graders getting lazy or are we just encouraging them with our tacit approval?

How do you feel about buying/selling trimmed cards? When they arrive as the dredges of a larger lot, what do you do with them? I've been filing mine away in a dark corner, never to be mentioned again. The pile's up to 12 :(

Excuse the brain dump, but sitting here looking at 'the deadly dozen', I'm scratching my head in wonder.

[Fred]

Scott,

I think that the card graders didn't want to lose out on business so they began providing the AUTH labels so people would submit those cards. I know that SGCs been doing it for a few years now. I'd call them about grades and if they said they saw evidence of trim I'd ask them to just put it in an AUTH holder. Now you don't have to ask them to do it, they just do it.

I don't mind trimmed cards as long as they are lightly trimmed. Also, those AUTH holders seem to drop the price on a card well below what you might pay for a lower graded example. I suppose it depends upon the trim job. As far as OJs go I don't mind a slight trim job, what I don't like are the trim jobs that remove the ad at the bottom of the OJs or the trim jobs where ALL four edges are trimmed down and there is no border (between edge of card and image) on the card.

I'm not going to get started on the AUTH and ALT designations for grading companies....

[sycks22]

It all depends on the eye appeal I've found. I've seen SGC / PSA Auth cards go for what a 4-5 would go for before. Usually they're around what a 2-3 would go for if there aren't a bunch of creases / wrinkles.

[Runscott]

Scott,

I think that the card graders didn't want to lose out on business so they began providing the AUTH labels so people would submit those cards. I know that SGCs been doing it for a few years now. I'd call them about grades and if they said they saw evidence of trim I'd ask them to just put it in an AUTH holder. Now you don't have to ask them to do it, they just do it.


That makes sense - I'd rather see 'AUTH' on the slab than 'NM'. What surprises me more is all the 'trimmed' raw cards being sold by large auction houses. Did they used to cull these out and just tell the consignors they wouldn't auction them? It used to be a real no-no to find trimmed cards in your winnings.

[kmac32]

I have an E121 series of 120 Ruth holding bird that is trimmed. Knew it when I bought it. SGC slab bed it as authentic which is fine with me. It has the appearance of a nice card with sharp corners and looks nicer that many of the cards that have grades. I would rather have the nicer looking card than a crappy example of the same card with a grade. All of my cards are SGC graded not because I really care about the grade, but because they appear nice in their display case. Strip cards are usually graded authentic because they are "trimmed" fron the strip. Trimmed is okay in slab as long as seller says it is trimmed. Guess I'm okay with "authentic" cards.

[skelly]

Simply can't stand trimmed cards. I usually give them/throw them away ( I'm not talking about rare expensive cards, I'm talking trimmed 71 Kaline, trimmed 72 Mays- you get the idea, 10-20 dollar cards. As far as grading, I know I'm weird in this way, but I'd rather have an unaltered card be slabbed as Auth. I just think it sounds better than "poor."

[tjlives]

I tend to collect whatever catches my fancy on a particular day on a not very large collecting budget, which a lot of the time is beaters. Given the choice between a card with bad wrinkles and stains affecting the picture and a card that is trimmed for the same price, I'll take the latter every day of the week and twice on Sundays. It's usually cards I simply wouldn't be able to purchase in a higher grade anyways.

[sportscardpete]

Simply can't stand trimmed cards. I usually give them/throw them away ( I'm not talking about rare expensive cards, I'm talking trimmed 71 Kaline, trimmed 72 Mays- you get the idea, 10-20 dollar cards. As far as grading, I know I'm weird in this way, but I'd rather have an unaltered card be slabbed as Auth. I just think it sounds better than "poor."

If I had a ton of money I would never buy a trimmed card, but if someones budget is low they provide a fantastic value. Some cards are hardly even trimmed, and can look better (and sell for wayyyy lower) than cards that grade a 2-4.

I would 1000% buy a trimmed t206 Magie, Plank, or Wagner.

[Jaybird]

I kind of like them if they are obvious hack jobs done by kids or by a collector trying to fit them into an album. If they are done by doctors or people trying to make sharp corners, I avoid them like the plague. Also don't mind them if they are blank backed.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/1910-1920/T206QuinnTolstoi1.jpghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/1910-1920/IMG_0002-1-1.jpghttp://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/1910-1920/1910_Eunc_Orange_NL.jpg

[tjlives]

I kind of like them if they are obvious hack jobs done by kids or by a collector trying to fit them into an album. If they are done by doctors or people trying to make sharp corners, I avoid them like the plague.


I tend to end up with cards with pinholes (sometimes also trimmed, sometimes not) for similar reasons. Gives the card a little more character, drives the grade to PR/FR, and usually doesn't affect the aesthetic of the card too much because little Jimmy typically didn't put the pin over Christy Mathewson's face.

[rainier2004]

Im on a tight budget with my cracker jack set...that sentence alone contradicts itself, but I buy a trimmed one it its got good appeal. They have a hair taken off them, look like the 6s that go for a lot more than I got. On the other hand I tend to not pin holes or any front paper loss or any writing period...glas we're different.

[steve B]

In my collecting I haven't focused on high grade cards. Just on having the card. I'm getting more into having really nice condition cards, but it's still not the most important thing.
I have a few trimmed cards, usually ones that look fairly nice. One I knew was trimmed, the other I'm pretty sure was trimmed. I'd bought it as raw card, and it looked pretty good, maybe a 40 or 50, and full size. But a couple edges are just too sharp. Another is a Delong in a 7 holder from one of the 4th tier grading companies. Also full size, but again, looks trimmed under a loupe.
I also have a few really nice ones I know aren't trimmed, and some real beaters.
I find I enjoy the cards for what they are, and can ignore what they sometimes aren't. I wouldn't spend big money on one, but there are some really great looking trimmed cards out there. As long as it's sold as trimmed and priced accordingly I'm ok with it.

Steve B

[kmac32]

.....

[atx840]

When I was putting together the 649 subset one of the "rarer" cards was the whitecap Mathewson and at the time I had two options. SGC hack job for $160 (ebay) or PSA 5 for $1750 (Heritage). The previous 30/34 cards combined didn't total $1750. I went with the hack job, love the card as it was clearly not done to deceive.

http://i.imgur.com/nptes.jpg

[z28jd]

Way back in the day, maybe 2002, I suggested here that grading companies give altered cards a zero grade and a modifier to tell what was wrong with the card. I would say of the 20 people who responded at least 21 thought it was a stupid idea and they didn't want grading companies to grade anything trimmed/recolored/restored/whatever

[Chris Counts]

The first card I bought off eBay 10 years ago was a trimmed 1953 Bowman Gerry Staley. I wasn't happy when my brother pointed out it was trimmed, but after a while, I not only stopped worrying about trimmed cards, but I actually started seeking them out, in part because I could acquire so many cards I couldn't normally afford on my limited budget. I'd much rather have a trimmed card than one with creases and rounded corners at the same price. For some time, I was convinced they were undervalued, but now I'm getting outbid all the time, so I suspect there's other bargain-hunting collectors like me. Some of my favorite cards are trimmed ...

[freakhappy]

I don't mind trimmed cards...to each their own. At the moment, I own one trimmed card (T206 Mathewson Dark Cap) and I don't even notice the trim job on it. The card looks to be a tad short, so to me it looks beautiful and untrimmed. Like a few people have said already, this is a card that if unaltered, I would not be able to afford. So I welcome trimmed cards if they are usually expensive unaltered.

As for the "chop jobs", they look horrible and wouldn't touch them unless they were too cheap to pass up. The gentlemen that showed us a few...the orange Mathewson looks very bad (no offense), but I can hardly look at that card! :eek:

Mike

[Jaybird]

I just find the good looking trimmed cards to have bad karma. More than likely they duped someone at one time in their life. Someone bought that card thinking it was a NM card and then found out it was trimmed and was disappointed (cheated). I don't like the karma associated with that kind of black mark on the hobby. I want my cards to be about as far away from that as possible.

Some guy sitting under a light trimming cards with a razor blade is pretty bad and I don't think should be rewarded. As bad as that Mathewson looks to you, I think it looks better than a doctored card. I think those sharp corners stick out more sorely.

To each his own...

[Runscott]

Way back in the day, maybe 2002, I suggested here that grading companies give altered cards a zero grade and a modifier to tell what was wrong with the card. I would say of the 20 people who responded at least 21 thought it was a stupid idea and they didn't want grading companies to grade anything trimmed/recolored/restored/whatever

John - that's how I remember it as well. It really sounds from the comments in this thread, that a lot of collectors no longer mind trimmed cards. They were just plain taboo.

atx840 - good example. That illustrates very well the situation we're in if we are collecting expensive cards, but on a budget. I also like all the subtle differences in the Matty white caps - mine is actually a hack job of a nice one as well, and also a 649 OP.

http://runscott.homestead.com/Cards/PT206-306Mat.jpeg

[ullmandds]

Personally...I really don't like trimmed cards...I have owned a few...maybe 10 or so over the years...but have slowly gotten rid of them...and the few I have left...I don't even know where they are!!!!

I agree with Jason's take...that maliciously trimmed cards are much worse than innocently trimmed cards...but sometimes you'll never know!!!!


The only thing worse than trimmed cards...in my opinion...are cards that have had color added to them...they are the worst.

It only makes sense that many people will buy/collect some cards that are trimmed...especially rarities...as the prices of unaltered cards continue into the stratosphere...collectors with less means will pursue these trimmed/altered/grade A cards as it's a more reasonable way to own such cards.

But personally...they're not for me...and they PISS ME OFF!!!!!!

[Exhibitman]

Sometimes you have to take what you can get.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/interestingexhibitcards/websize/PCL%20Jolly.jpg

If a tuff card has been trimmed but not mangled I will take it if the price is right or the card has been on a search list for a long time. As for TPGs, no reason not to authenticate.

[brianp-beme]

I used to frown on trimmed cards, but that was so twenty years ago for me. I think collecting Zeenuts has not only loosened me up to really rough looking cards, but has gotten me accustomed to cards that have unoriginal borders (the 1913 through 1937 cards all had coupons on the bottom that were usually cut or ripped off). I have some great looking E93 HOF cards that came from the Don McPherson collection (he is the collector that authored the Zeenut major league player listing, with the aid of Buck Barker) that are absolutely spectacular but were cut off on either top or bottom border to fit into his sheets. I wouldn't have been able to afford them otherwise.

Brian

[ullmandds]

That's part of it...if you collect rare...obscure sets you'll most likely have to deal/live with trimmed/altered cards...whereas if you only deal in more mainstream sets like T206...it's easier to find unaltered copies.

[Jaybird]

That's part of it...if you collect rare...obscure sets you'll most likely have to deal/live with trimmed/altered cards...whereas if you only deal in more mainstream sets like T206...it's easier to find unaltered copies.

Good point.

[Runscott]

That's part of it...if you collect rare...obscure sets you'll most likely have to deal/live with trimmed/altered cards...whereas if you only deal in more mainstream sets like T206...it's easier to find unaltered copies.

Peter, that's true - as far as I remember that has always been the case, but my examples actually involved T206's - this was a set where trimmed cards were once frowned upon, and it sounds like now 'us collectors' are much more accepting toward them.

[tbob]

That's part of it...if you collect rare...obscure sets you'll most likely have to deal/live with trimmed/altered cards...whereas if you only deal in more mainstream sets like T206...it's easier to find unaltered copies.


I agree Pete and no one has mentioned that there ARE some cards which SGC gave an "A" to which might not be trimmed at all. Some factory cuts, etc. I have two examples of a particular 1912 Zeenut card, one is a 30 and the other an "A" and if you saw them both in person you would probably take the "A" all day long because it looks like an 80.

[Exhibitman]

That's true, Bob. I picked up an N150 with a nice image and an obvious factory miscut at the bottom [a chunk of the next card in it] that was graded "A".

[Jaybird]

As for the "chop jobs", they look horrible and wouldn't touch them unless they were too cheap to pass up. The gentlemen that showed us a few...the orange Mathewson looks very bad (no offense), but I can hardly look at that card! :eek:

Mike

I've been thinking about this card and agree it's ugly so I got a sharp razor and poof, look what I made! Now I can sell it for twice as much as I bought it for and the world is a richer place for not having to look upon such an eyesore. Anyone know how I can press out that crease?

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af353/jasonleemiller/1910-1920/E93MattyDr.jpg

[frohme]

I agree Pete and no one has mentioned that there ARE some cards which SGC gave an "A" to which might not be trimmed at all. Some factory cuts, etc. I have two examples of a particular 1912 Zeenut card, one is a 30 and the other an "A" and if you saw them both in person you would probably take the "A" all day long because it looks like an 80.

This thread hits right on the money - I was going to raise exactly this point, and Bob beat me to it.

Some cards you can't tell, the graders can't/couldn't, and in the end, I'm not sure it matters. In the end its all personal preference, and to each his own.

While this one does not fit that mold, color me crazy but I'll take this one over a lot of numerically graded ones any day of the week. Yeah, its short, but its one of those T207's that doesn't have a crack in the glazing - it just gleams.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x51/frohme/3c1cc428-1-1.jpg

Yes, its a sickness...

[Runscott]

This thread hits right on the money - I was going to raise exactly this point, and Bob beat me to it.

Some cards you can't tell, the graders can't/couldn't, and in the end, I'm not sure it matters. In the end its all personal preference, and to each his own.

While this one does not fit that mold, color me crazy but I'll take this one over a lot of numerically graded ones any day of the week. Yeah, its short, but its one of those T207's that doesn't have a crack in the glazing - it just gleams.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x51/frohme/3c1cc428-1-1.jpg

Yes, its a sickness...

So the preference would be that the grading companies figure out how to authenticate a factory miscut, like the ones that are so common in T207s and E90-1s, and label them accordingly.

But in the absence of such skills, shouldn't there at least be a different 'AUTH' for such cards, to distinguish them from actual trims?

[zljones]

Trimmed and/or "Auth" is the just about the only way I go for 19th century cards.

[Leon]

As noted trimmed cards are being accepted more and more. As long as they are sold as trimmed, they can be good buys and valued collectibles. It's when they are sold as untrimmed there is an issue. best regards