Ty Cobb at 17?

[bcbgcbrcb]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Baseball-Photograph-Ty-Cobb-1904-Augusta-Tourists-/130603187426?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item1e688e7ce2

Don't think so, there is some resemblence but face looks too round and individual appears to be older than 17.........

[Big Ben]

Love the drawing of the arrow that points toward Ty. :D. Is it me, or is there a nice smudge between the y and the C with the inscription on the bottom?

[christopher.herman]

That sure does look like him. I vote yes but the sellers description is what actually makes me nervous. Provenance is key here and the lack of info about the photo is troubling.
Why would the seller be holding back info in an auction setting?

[aquarius31]

Provenance is key here and the lack of info about the photo is troubling. Why would the seller be holding back info in an auction setting?

Agreed...why would the seller say "The name of the man in the photo and the name of his business will be given to the buyer"??? I'm also quite relieved that there's an arrow to point out that the Cobb (there's definitely a resemblance although it does not necessarily mean it is him) is on the right :rolleyes:

[Cardboard Junkie]

Hi I knew Cobb's grand daughter. She worked (works?) in a hospital near Detroit. After a few years of talking with her on and off, I asked if he left her any baseballcards. She said no but he had left her some coca cola stock. I have seen some prints of personal family pictures and my money says it is probably Cobb. I aint payin 9 bills for it though.,,, Aloha, Dave.

[calvindog]

It's not Ty Cobb but the guy on the left is definitely Chris Christie.

[iggyman]

It does look like him and as Bill James has pointed-out, Cobb is often pictured hiding one or both hands.

Lovely Day...

[christopher.herman]

Agreed...why would the seller say "The name of the man in the photo and the name of his business will be given to the buyer"??? I'm also quite relieved that there's an arrow to point out that the Cobb (there's definitely a resemblance although it does not necessarily mean it is him) is on the right :rolleyes:

On second thought, stolen, perhaps?

[ScottR81]

I say its Cobb, but 17? he looks a older, but hey I was 6'1" in 8th grade so....

[hunterdutchess]

I am one to think B.S. first on items like this but after looking at it for awhile I have to say that I think that it is him.

[bbcard1]

My son is 17 and looks everybit that old.

[fkw]

to me it looks like him but the face is a bit fat, but if he looked down slightly it might not be so fat :)

The thing that makes me lean to its HIM, it the seller is in Augusta...

If the seller was in Chicago or Portland etc, it would be a different story.

The not disclosing info to bidders is a deal breaker though IMO
If the guy on the left was associated with Cobb in some way (HS buddy?) thats a big deal and would go a long way in proving its Cobb.

BTW the pen looks to be a fountain pen, and I think maybe they started to write "Tyrus" and then changed it IMO

[calvindog]

I agree completely with what Frank just said. I think it looks like him but the failure to disclose the info makes no sense and raises too big a red flag to be bothered. It's a nice item but hardly so rare so as to require a leap of faith like that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree completely with what Frank just said. I think it looks like him but the failure to disclose the info makes no sense and raises too big a red flag to be bothered. It's a nice item but hardly so rare so as to require a leap of faith like that.


The old Hal Lewis approach, eh?

[DixieBaseball]

To me it looks like Cobb (Thinking T206 Green Portrait style Cobb) How old was Cobb in 1909 ? I think it is him, but older.

[Leon]

I added a poll...hope that was ok? I voted yes but not 17.......

[calvindog]

the old hal lewis approach, eh?

lolololololol yes!

[ChiefBenderForever]

If his jaw was broke and face all swelled up it could be him otherwise he never had fat cheeks so not him, esp at 17 he was a stringbean so no way. If older he had wrinkles from all the wear and tear so don't see how it could be him.

[uffda51]

Well, it's not Janis Ian.

[vintagerookies51]

My first thought when I zoomed in on it was that it looked like Ty's T206 portrait pose, like someone else mentioned. I voted yes, but not 17

[Kenny Cole]

The old Hal Lewis approach, eh?

Somewhat too subtle, but yeah, pretty close. Too funny. You now need to wait a month and offer to buy it.

[barrysloate]

Well, it's not Janis Ian.

Bruce- good reference, not sure too many people got it.:)

And I voted it's not Ty Cobb in the photo.

[Kenny Cole]

Barry,

He doesn't have a ravaged face. :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry,

He doesn't have a ravaged face. :)

But he was lacking in the social graces.

[CW]

He bears a resemblance, but that is not Ty Cobb.

[Kenny Cole]

Ah, but I suspect that he didn't invent lovers on the phone. What say you to that, Peter? :)

[barrysloate]

Kenny and Peter- wow, you guys knew the lyrics for "At Seventeen." I'm impressed- I didn't know them. Maybe "Society's Child", but not that one. Well done.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Not Janis Ian....Howz about Ian Whitcomb or Ian and Sylvia?....oh,ever mind..I voted Cobb at 17. dave

[jcmtiger]

If that was golfer Bobby Jones standing next to him I would say yes. But I voted no.

Joe

[Kenny Cole]

Barry,

I remember stuff like that -- lyrics to a song I probably haven't heard in 30 years -- better than I remember what I did yesterday. It is a fairly depressing situation. :(

[alanu]

I voted yes and 17.... my assumption is he went off to college or somewhere at age 17 and put on the "freshman 15"

[e107collector]

Here is a photo of Cobb in 1906, making him 19 years old on the Sporting Life postcard.

I don't think that is Cobb at all, let alone at age 17.

I can't seem to figure out how to do a side by side comparison of each photo. Maybe a kind board member can??

Tony

[barrysloate]

Barry,

I remember stuff like that -- lyrics to a song I probably haven't heard in 30 years -- better than I remember what I did yesterday. It is a fairly depressing situation. :(

I'm the same way Kenny. I can remember elaborate stories from high school in the 1960's, but can't remember why I walked from the living room into my office. That happens when you get older.:(

[barrysloate]

Getting back to the Cobb photo, Cobb was relatively thin as a rookie, and would have been so at age 17. The man in the photo looks somewhat stocky and quite a bit older, probably in his twenties. I think someone found a look alike and just added the identification at the bottom. I am so suspicious of this type of photograph. Every time we see one of these with a caption that was added much later, it almost always is misidentified. I think anyone who buys this is buying a headache.

[aaroncc]

Here is a comparison photo, suppose to be Cobb around 17.
Found it on this website:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102826-Bill-s-Ty-Cobb-Photos/page2&

[hunterdutchess]

Here is a comparison photo, suppose to be Cobb around 17.
Found it on this website:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102826-Bill-s-Ty-Cobb-Photos/page2&

-If that's not him than it has to be his twin separated at birth. I am 99.9% +

[brickyardkennedy]

Here is a comparison photo, suppose to be Cobb around 17.
Found it on this website:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102826-Bill-s-Ty-Cobb-Photos/page2&

Didn't think it was Cobb, at first, but hard to sustain that doubt with the evidence of those comparison photos. I'm convinced.

[freakhappy]

Aaron, thanks for the photo comparison...that seems like it locks up the debate. Also, look at his ears in both photos...exactly the same. That has to be Cobb!

Funny how some people just know that the picture isn't Cobb, lol! Come on people, we didn't know the guy personally or even live in that era!

[barrysloate]

It does look like a match, I have to admit. But like I said, I am so suspicious of that type of photo i.d. that I've developed a natural bias.

[CW]

IMO, that side-by-side comparison shows that the photo on eBay is not Cobb. While the ears may be similar, I think that some folks here are ignoring the tell-tale sign -- the roundness of the face. If the photo on eBay is Cobb, I think we'd all agree that it would have to be Cobb pre-20 yrs. old. All of the photos that show Cobb in his teens (and even early 20's) show him with a much thinner, slender face. The picture on eBay has a man with a round face. To me, the shape of the face is the clincher that it's not Cobb.

We've all seen someone who looked eerily similar to someone we already knew -- I think this is the case we have with the eBay photo.

[freakhappy]

Ears are dead-on. Other than Cobb being slimmer in the second photo, everything else matches almost exactly. I don't think it clearly discredits that pic from being Cobb...unless it's his twin, Cy Cobb ;)

[yanks12025]

Can't the angle of the photo make Cobb's face look alittle bigger. The one is straight on, while he other is alittle on the side. Hair also matches up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ah, but I suspect that he didn't invent lovers on the phone. What say you to that, Peter? :)

I say the small town eyes gaped at him in dull surprise.

[CW]

It is unfortunate (and somewhat perplexing) that the seller will not divulge the name of the other subject in the photo. If that person were named, and could be confirmed with a cross reference photo, and that person could also be linked to Ty Cobb, then the seller would be wise to give up that info.

One quick question to those who collect vintage photos... if this were actually confirmed to be Ty Cobb, would it be worth the asking price of $900?




(and since this might be one of those threads were a name should be included, my last name is W_olff, minus the _ ;) )

[slidekellyslide]

I asked the seller for a scan of the reverse hoping that we could date it, but the stamp box style is an unknown date.

http://www.playle.com/realphoto/photoall.php

It sure looks like Ty Cobb to me, but not at 17..perhaps around 20.

[deebro041]

Reading this thread leads me to wonder why, as collectors we feel the need to own the earlist possible items. I understand that the market is driven by early or rookie items, but as a collector, if you truly enjoy the item and the quality is to your liking, is there really importance as to how early the item is as a memorabilia standpoint. I could be a hypocrite on this post as i love the very early items. I voted yes to Ty Cobb at 17, a wonderful photo none the less!
What came first the chicken or the egg?

[thekingofclout]

After a quick look I had voted no. But now I'm leaning towards yes. The tipping point for me is something that I don't think was mentioned yet. His height. Cobb was every bit of 6'1" and if the fellow next to him was of average height of 5'9" or perhaps it was 5'8" more than 100 years ago, then the fellow we're talking about would certainly measure up. Not a whole lot of young men coming in at 6'1" way back when, especially one that resembled Cobb so much.

In regards to value. If it was proven that it was Cobb, I would put it between $300-$350.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Great idea asking for a scan of the back to help date it. If you look very closely, the stamp box on this one does not match any of the examples provided on that website. However, the undivided-back makes it a March, 1907 or earlier postcard.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Well, just did lots of reasearch and have determined that the gold watch presented to Cobb during his last minor league game for Augusta in 1905 was funded by a collection taken up by the team's fans and was presented to him that day by the Mayor of Augusta. Now all we need is a historical photo of the Mayor of Augusta from 1905 and match it up to this postcard. I'm not sure the 1904 date rather than 1905 can ever be proven unless the individual in the photo was not the mayor of Augusta in 1905 and passed away prior to 1905, thus eliminating that as a possibility.

[thekingofclout]

Well, just did lots of reasearch and have determined that the gold watch presented to Cobb during his last minor league game for Augusta in 1905 was funded by a collection taken up by the team's fans and was presented to him that day by the Mayor of Augusta. Now all we need is a historical photo of the Mayor of Augusta from 1905 and match it up to this postcard. I'm not sure the 1904 date rather than 1905 can ever be proven unless the individual in the photo was not the mayor of Augusta in 1905 and passed away prior to 1905, thus eliminating that as a possibility.

Terrific research Phil! I would think that the Augusta City Hall/Records might be the best bet. But if it's citizens are half as stuffy as the Augusta National Members and following, it may be a tall order at that.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Eyes, hair, lips, ears, and nose all look the same. His face is more rounded, but a man's appearance can change within a one year period. He's certainly not fat in the auction photo, but he's also not skinny like in the comparison photo.

Edited to say: Especially during the off-season. The Babe typically packed on a few too.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I got the Mayor's name, it's Richard E. Allen (1904-07) and I found an online article detailing him:

http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/georgiabooks/pdfs/gb0030d.pdf

[bmarlowe1]

Given that the scan is not very sharp, I can see no feature mismatch with respect to Cobb.

[Jaybird]

Great idea asking for a scan of the back to help date it. If you look very closely, the stamp box on this one does not match any of the examples provided on that website. However, the undivided-back makes it a March, 1907 or earlier postcard.

While I agree with you for the most part, I've seen the undivided back on later postcards. I know that the USPS allowed the divided back in March 1907 but some postcards were printed after that date with an undivided back. People would sometimes draw their own line to separate the address from the correspondence, etc. after this date.

This is just a technicality and not meant to correct you but to leave open the possibility that this could be a later postcard, though I don't think it is in this case because of the "This Side for Address" line.

Of course, the reverse is true - that you wouldn't see a divided back before March 1907. So, for me, I use it as a guide and not a fast rule when I see an undivided back.

[atx840]

Very rough comparison, ears, eyes & chin all align.

http://i.imgur.com/j5WEM.jpg

[Abravefan11]

Now all we need is a historical photo of the Mayor of Augusta from 1905 and match it up to this postcard.

This is a photo of the mayor just after he was elected in July 1903.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bElRRK-tnPs/TslcXXDpSYI/AAAAAAAAFgI/a-wpbngx5-A/s512/pl_011202011_1458_53657_278.pdf%252520%252528appli cationpdf%252520Object%252529%252520-%252520Mozilla%252520Firefox%25252011202011%252520 30005%252520PM.jpg

[Abravefan11]

A little more digging and it turns out the watch was presented to Cobb by John R. Burke.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1uRNafJn7F0/TslqiMvg1sI/AAAAAAAAFgQ/cS0OmH1BTA0/s612/pl_011202011_1534_32683_785.pdf%252520%252528appli cationpdf%252520Object%252529%252520-%252520Mozilla%252520Firefox%25252011202011%252520 40020%252520PM.jpg

[bcbgcbrcb]

One thing seems certain, the watch was not "donated" by this individual but instead by the team's fans, maybe "presented" by this individual but that's not what the seller's description states.

Now, we have to determine who John Burke was.............

[bmarlowe1]

A couple of people made the point that the face looks more rounded than other young photos of Cobb. I agree, it does. The reason is that this is a photo taken of the postcard from an angle well below the subject - the camera was clearly not parallel to the plane of the postcard. This causes significant spatial distortion. In this case the vertical dimension of the face appears shortened while the horizontal dimension remains relatively accurate. That makes his face appear more round.

[Big Ben]

I love this thread! I went from not believing the picture was Cobb to thinking the image is Cobb. It would take some more evidence for me to believe that Cobb was 17 at the time of this picture though.

[yanksfan09]

i think it looks like him. This is a 1907-1909 Tiger Team photo, Cobb on middle row on right side.

From antiques roadshow (not a closeup though):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/201005T14.html

[hunterdutchess]

Looks like the auction was ended, off ebay sale?

[Bicem]

Obviously him to me, how about we do another poll now that we have more evidence?

[MW1]

i think it looks like him. This is a 1907-1909 Tiger Team photo, Cobb on middle row on right side.

From antiques roadshow (not a closeup though):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/201005T14.htmlThat's a 1909 M101-2 Sporting News Supplement with the top and bottom either obscured or cut off. $5,000 is not a very accurate appraised value.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-M101-2-Sporting-News-Supplement-Detroit-Tigers-/400067548284

[CW]

yes, this has been a great thread! With some of the recent points made, as well as more comparison photos, and the fact that it's also a post card, I am also willing to admit I was wrong -- that very well may be Mr. Cobb. :cool:

[Bicem]

I bought the postcard. Apparently this originally came from the estate of the other man pictured -- George Parquette. He owned Parquette Jewelry in Augusta and was the one who supplied the gold watch that was presented to Cobb on August 25th, 1905.

http://photos.imageevent.com/bicem/other/Cobb%20at%20Augusta.jpg

Anyway, thought it was a neat piece of history so I made the seller an offer and he accepted.

[hunterdutchess]

Was the "Ty Cobb at 17" written by the seller or was it on the card when they found it? Nice item btw.

[Runscott]

I bought the postcard. Apparently this originally came from the estate of the other man pictured -- George Parquette. He owned Parquette Jewelry in Augusta and was the one who supplied the gold watch that was presented to Cobb on August 25th, 1905.

Anyway, thought it was a neat piece of history so I made the seller an offer and he accepted.

Very nice pickup! Especially being a postcard, now you can get it slabbed and the value should increase to at least what you paid, probably more.

[Jaybird]

Congrats on picking up a special card.

[Bicem]

Was the "Ty Cobb at 17" written by the seller or was it on the card when they found it? Nice item btw.

already on there, but I think whoever wrote that was wrong as I believe Cobb was actually 18 when the photo was taken.