E90-1 Joe Jackson (PSA 2) REAL?

[bcbgcbrcb]

I just spotted this listing on e-bay. Is it just me or does this look like the reprint version, based primarily on the darker purple background and large borders?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-SHOELESS-JOE-JACKSON-E90-ROOKIE-CARD-PSA-GOOD-2-SERIAL-15047829-/110772941507?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item19ca94f2c3

[tbob]

Phil, you are 100% correct. Don't know how it got in a PSA holder unless the flip is a forgery or it is a real holder but the card was slipped it somehow.
The tip-off besides the borders and color is that in the area to the left of "100 subjects" there is a blemish which indicates a number has been removed. On the reprinted Jacksons you frequently see the number, I believe it is "20" and counterfeiters remove this from certain E90-1s when they try to pass them off as real.
Here is a real one:

[4815162342]

I'll take it for a $3 bill! Notice how the seller took a picture of the slab inside of plastic to try and diminish the appearance of frosting.

[Big Ben]

I'll take it for a $3 bill! Notice how the seller took a picture of the slab inside of plastic to try and diminish the appearance of frosting.

I was about to say the same thing. That slab looks very frosted.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'll take it for a $3 bill! Notice how the seller took a picture of the slab inside of plastic to try and diminish the appearance of frosting.

If you look at the slab in the close up pictures, it looks pretty frosted.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1909-SHOELESS-JOE-JACKSON-E90-ROOKIE-CARD-PSA-GOOD-2-SERIAL-15047829-/00/s/NzY5WDEwMjQ=/$(KGrHqN,!k0E6By9VuVBBOupVhNjew~~60_3.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1909-SHOELESS-JOE-JACKSON-E90-ROOKIE-CARD-PSA-GOOD-2-SERIAL-15047829-/00/s/NzY5WDEwMjQ=/$(KGrHqR,!hQE6ZjVZPrkBOupVrHwpQ~~60_3.JPG

[ArchStanton]

I bought a fake Clemente rookie a few years ago from the Toledo area. It was a copy in a cracked PSA slab. That guy would buy a real card, crack it and send it to a different grading company. He would then sell the real one and the fake one in the broken PSA slab all from the same account.

This scam looks similar. Can anyone find a record of a recent sale of the real PSA-slabbed Jackson?

[Runscott]

Even funnier, he created his PSA label using 'O's instead of '0's for the numbers.

What a joke.

[barrysloate]

Unquestionable fake. The lettering is wrong. Look at the position of the "ck" in Jackson under the bat in each card. It's shifted a hairline to the right on the fake card. Someone pried open a slab, took out the real card, and replaced it with garbage.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Even funnier, he created his PSA label using 'O's instead of '0's for the numbers.

What a joke.

Good eye! I didn't even notice that. That's funny (but sad).

Edited to add: He also has a '52 Mantle that has a frosted slab as well and a Yankees signed team ball with Ruth on the sweet spot. The ball has a sticker from a Heritage Auction, but if you look at the top left corner of the sticker, it looks like it's been removed.

[vintagecpa]

This is a very scary thread. How many average Joe collectors would have just plunked down their money, placed the card in their safe and not known what they really bought for the next 40 years?!

[jtschantz]

The same seller has a 52 Mantle in psa 5 that appears to be fake also

[bcbgcbrcb]

The listing also highlights the item as a great holiday gift (if it were real, of course). I would love to receive a $9,000 holiday gift one day..........

[egbeachley]

?

Arch Stanton.....great login name. Now I wish I used Bill Carson.

[gnaz01]

Arch Stanton.....great login name. Now I wish I used Bill Carson.

Or better yet "Unknown" :D

[egbeachley]

Or better yet "Unknown" :D

He's next on Bruce's litigation list....right after "Archive".

[fkw]

http://www.caramel-cards.com/e901.html


the bottom of the page (link) above shows you one of these common reprints with the "20", they have been around for at least 10-15 years, maybe much longer, .....I remember seeing them many years ago.

[Runscott]

Looking at his other auctions, I thought he was an honest seller who had been ripped off and was unwittingly selling forgeries, but based on an email exchange I had with him, it's obvious he's the scammer. He told me that he checked the PSA registry and the card's legit, and that he googled the PSA number to see if there was a forgery reported, and found nothing; therefore, the card is legit.

A legitimate seller would have been freaking out when told he was selling fakes and had been ripped off for thousands.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Looking at his other auctions, I thought he was an honest seller who had been ripped off and was unwittingly selling forgeries, but based on an email exchange I had with him, it's obvious he's the scammer. He told me that he checked the PSA registry and the card's legit, and that he googled the PSA number to see if there was a forgery reported, and found nothing; therefore, the card is legit.

A legitimate seller would have been freaking out when told he was selling fakes and had been ripped off for thousands.

I received the same reply from him, Scott. He knows exactly what he's doing.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Same here. Here was his reply to me:

"The cards that I have are both sealed, unaltered, and the PSA site shows these numbers being these cards. I bought these items from a cutomer who has sold us other items in our store, and have had no problems whatsoever. Thank you for your concerns. Kenny"

[hunterdutchess]

The Mantle is 100% fake and it is at $14,000. Anyone have a buying account that they can stiff this jerk with a no sale?

[Runscott]

The Mantle is 100% fake and it is at $14,000. Anyone have a buying account that they can stiff this jerk with a no sale?

He gave me his phone number and asked me to call him and give him ideas about recourse. I have no idea, but wouldn't you think he'd just go to the police?

I have only been stiffed twice for sort of high-dollar items - a pool cue and a '53 Mantle. Both times, at the suggestion of board members, I called the police in the home town of the guy who stiffed me. The police were all over them in both cases, and I got my money back in one case, and the card in the other.

[hunterdutchess]

Seller sent me this:

We have read your request on the forum about someone buying and stiffing us. We have reported this to Ebay and if this happens there will be serious consequenses, for whom it may be. We just had this card to a certified grader in our area and it is legite. PERIOD..I would cease this type of action. We are an impeccable seller on Ebay and are rated "The Best of The Best" in our area. Thanks, Dannyz

-The irony of threatening to report me. Frosted slab + fake card + ripping someone off for $14,000 = JERK!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Chris,

Report him to the Attorney General in the State of Ohio. I already did, but maybe if they get enough complaints, they will act faster.

Here is their website:
http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/

Click on the "Consumer" tab, then "File a complaint." I would love to see this guy do jail time.

[hunterdutchess]

Maybe he is a ebay gangster? Sent me this:

"I would not consider stiffing this jerk with a no sale. You WILL LOOSE your Ebay account, guaranteed......"

[egbeachley]

You WILL LOOSE your Ebay account, guaranteed......"

How do you LOOSE an account? When you login to Ebay your PC rattles a bit?

[KennyJ1970]

Thank you, Scott, for bringing to our attention that these cards were not authentic. I manage a store whose main business is buying gold and silver, however, in this economic climate, many people have brought other items into our store, including sports memorabilia. We don't buy baseball cards that are not graded by reputable grading companies to prevent buying fakes. I was obviously not aware enough that even these can be faked. I started investigating the possibility that these could be counterfeited after your message to us, and contacted Ebay, who looked at our listings and assured us that these cards were fine. They told us that they get many complaints about fake items all the time, and that we had nothing to worry about. We did what we thought was right at the time with the info we were given. It certainly was a learning experience, albeit an expensive one. I am now in the process of taking legal action against the seller, as we have his info from the purchase. Hopefully we can get our money back, and we will follow through with prosecution. Kenny

[vintagecpa]

Kenny, I appreciate your post. Let me bring some more information to at least the E90-1 Jackson. The E90-1 Jackson that is the reprint has the same PSA certification number as a PSA 2 E90-1 Jackson that sold in the March 2009 Mile High Auction (see link). I would assume that there couldn't have been too many owners between the time it sold in the Mile High Auction in 2009 and from when you took possession of the card. I just figured it might be useful information. (The smaller picture is from the Mile High Auction and the good Jackson. The larger picture is from the Ebay auction with the reprint.)

http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=12178

[KennyJ1970]

Thanks, Mike. Quite a difference in those two, I'd say. I guess i was a real fool on this one. I'm used to buying vintage coins, graded and ungraded, and I know what to look for in those, but I really dropped the ball on these.

[barrysloate]

Kenny- I think the reason the Jackson was brought to a coin dealer was for exactly that reason: that you would have less expertise than a baseball card dealer, who would spot the fake more easily.

[Runscott]

Thank you, Scott, for bringing to our attention that these cards were not authentic....

My pleasure. I hope this works out for you.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Kenny,

I also spoke with you via email and you seem very friendly and sincere. However, after that, someone named Danny Z. started emailing me stating that I didn't know what the heck I was talking about, asking me what were my credentials, blah, blah, blah. He had a very crappy attitutude. I don't know if he is an employee of yours, a business partner or whatever, but he was a real JERK!

Like other members here, I was only trying to get this this listing removed so nobody got taken advantage of. Anyway, he wouldn't shut up about it and I finally said, "If you think I am wrong, then why did you remove the listing? If you think I am wrong, then GROW A SET OF BALLS and re-list the card! His repsonse was, "The card will be re-listed." Obviously the card wasn't relisted.

Anyway, after me and several others pointed out the reasons that the card was fake and Mike posted photos of the real card, I'm just curious what Danny has to say now?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Kenny,

One other thing. You stated in your email to me, "I bought these items from a cutomer who has sold us other items in our store, and have had no problems whatsoever."

If that is the case, would you mind sharing with the rest of the board the name of the individual that sold you these fakes so we don't get taken advantage of by the same guy? Your help would be greatly appreciated.

[KennyJ1970]

I really want to let everyone know about this guy, however, I am not allowed to give his name by law. Every item we take into the store has to have a purchase order, which is protected by confidentiality laws. I hate that in this case, but I am not allowed without a police report. All I can say is that he is a 55 yr. old from northeast Ohio. I know that sucks, but I am talking to the police on Monday, and if I can say anything else, I absolutely will. I apologize for Danny. He was very upset with finding this out, and that he had just lost a bundle of money. No excuse for how he spoke to some of you, but he is...abrasive sometimes.

[YankeeCollector]

I really want to let everyone know about this guy, however, I am not allowed to give his name by law. Every item we take into the store has to have a purchase order, which is protected by confidentiality laws. I hate that in this case, but I am not allowed without a police report. All I can say is that he is a 55 yr. old from northeast Ohio. I know that sucks, but I am talking to the police on Monday, and if I can say anything else, I absolutely will. I apologize for Danny. He was very upset with finding this out, and that he had just lost a bundle of money. No excuse for how he spoke to some of you, but he is...abrasive sometimes.

I dont get it. You said you purchased it from this guy. I dont understand how that is confidential. I would expose this guy for the scum that he is.

[vintagecpa]

Hey Kenny, I assume all these cards came from the same seller, but the 1952 Topps Roy Campanella PSA 8 that you sold a few days ago for $3,550 looks suspicious also.

Here is a link to your card you sold on EBay on 11/7/11

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-ROY-CAMPANELLA-TOPPS-BASEBALL-CARD-GRADED-NM-MT-8-PSA-/120805815604?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c20967534#ht_518wt_689

Here is a link to the same card being sold at the August, 2008 Goodwin Auction (at least same certification number)

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=5552

From my semi-untrained eye, it doesn't appear to be the same card. I would like a board member with more experience with 1952 Topps and PSA slabs to give a better opinion.

Finally, the same card and certification number was listed for sale on Craigs List in Louisville on November 1.

http://louisville.craigslist.org/clt/2680098176.html

I wish I had better news. Hopefully, this will all be helpful info when you file your police report.

Mike

[Runscott]

Ugghh.. Mike, once again, not only are the cards definitely different, but the fonts and letter locations are way off on the PSA label.

Another fraudulent card.

[KennyJ1970]

I dont get it. You said you purchased it from this guy. I dont understand how that is confidential. I would expose this guy for the scum that he is.
According to the law, if someone had something stolen and came to us, we can't even release the info to the victim of the theft without a police report.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Hey Kenny, I assume all these cards came from the same seller, but the 1952 Topps Roy Campanella PSA 8 that you sold a few days ago for $3,550 looks suspicious also.

Here is a link to your card you sold on EBay on 11/7/11

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-ROY-CAMPANELLA-TOPPS-BASEBALL-CARD-GRADED-NM-MT-8-PSA-/120805815604?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c20967534#ht_518wt_689

Here is a link to the same card being sold at the August, 2008 Goodwin Auction (at least same certification number)

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=5552

From my semi-untrained eye, it doesn't appear to be the same card. I would like a board member with more experience with 1952 Topps and PSA slabs to give a better opinion.

Finally, the same card and certification number was listed for sale on Craigs List in Louisville on November 1.

http://louisville.craigslist.org/clt/2680098176.html

I wish I had better news. Hopefully, this will all be helpful info when you file your police report.

Mike

Mike,

Good catch. They are definitely NOT the same card although they share the same serial number.

Card from Goodwin Auction:
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotImages/7/007_005a_med.jpeg

Card from Kenny:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1952-ROY-CAMPANELLA-TOPPS-BASEBALL-CARD-GRADED-NM-MT-8-PSA-/00/s/NzY5WDEwMjQ=/$(KGrHqJ,!lYE6B5nQCVbBOtEVmYP2Q~~60_3.JPG

The real one (Goodwin) has a noticable tilt.

[YankeeCollector]

Mike,

Good catch. They are definitely NOT the same card although they share the same serial number.

Card from Goodwin Auction:
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotImages/7/007_005a_med.jpeg

Card from Kenny:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1952-ROY-CAMPANELLA-TOPPS-BASEBALL-CARD-GRADED-NM-MT-8-PSA-/00/s/NzY5WDEwMjQ=/$(KGrHqJ,!lYE6B5nQCVbBOtEVmYP2Q~~60_3.JPG

The real one (Goodwin) has a noticable tilt.

Its not even close! Is it that easy to tamper with PSA holders?

[Jacklitsch]

Its not even close! Is it that easy to tamper with PSA holders?

Fake flip and holder. Look at the positioning of the "S" in the word TOPPS over the second "A" in Campanella. They don't line up.

Scammer created a new flip using a correct cert number in case anyone were to check.

EDIT: Looks like Walkscott beat me to this analysis.

[vintagecpa]

Jim, it isn't the same holder. If you look at the "NM-M 8" on both slabs, the spacing is different. The barcode looks off also. I now suspect the original Joe Jackson and Campanella card still exist in the original slab as opposed to someone cracking the case and replacing the card. Purely speculation on my part.

[YankeeCollector]

Jim, it isn't the same holder. If you look at the "NM-M 8" on both slabs, the spacing is different. The barcode looks off also. I now suspect the original Joe Jackson and Campanella card still exist in the original slab as opposed to someone cracking the case and replacing the card. Purely speculation on my part.

You may be right but where do these scammers get the PSA Holders? Wow, this is crazy! Do you think a major auction house like Goodwin would ever get fooled like this?

[CW]

You may be right but where do these scammers get the PSA Holders? Wow, this is crazy! Do you think a major auction house like Goodwin would ever get fooled like this?

Judging from the photos of these illegitimate cards, all the edges appear to be frosted. The scammers are simply prying apart legit slabs, reprinting fake flips, inserting reprint cards and resealing the slabs with glue (or some other method). A major auction house would spot the frosted edges.

[Runscott]

You may be right but where do these scammers get the PSA Holders? Wow, this is crazy! Do you think a major auction house like Goodwin would ever get fooled like this?

Jim, they just crack a cheap card out of a holder. There was a scam a while back where some forgers had gotten hold of new slabs and blank labels, but the goal there was to pass something off and have it stay passed off as real. The guys creating cards like this Jackson are complete idiots and always get caught eventually. It's too much money, too crappy of a product and too wide of a trail.

[YankeeCollector]

Jim, they just crack a cheap card out of a holder. There was a scam a while back where some forgers had gotten hold of new slabs and blank labels, but the goal there was to pass something off and have it stay passed off as real. The guys creating cards like this Jackson are complete idiots and always get caught eventually. It's too much money, too crappy of a product and too wide of a trail.

What a disgrace!!! There has to be something the grading companies can do to prevent this with their holders.

[Matthew H]

What a disgrace!!! There has to be something the grading companies can do to prevent this with their holders.

I don't think Becket slabs can be pried apart. I break cards out of slabs all the time and It's very hard to open a Becket slab without completely destroying it.

[vintagecpa]

Good eye! I didn't even notice that. That's funny (but sad).

Edited to add: He also has a '52 Mantle that has a frosted slab as well and a Yankees signed team ball with Ruth on the sweet spot. The ball has a sticker from a Heritage Auction, but if you look at the top left corner of the sticker, it looks like it's been removed.

After reading David's comment regarding the questionable sticker from Heritage Auction, I had to fire up my Google page. For some reason, this thread has really touched a nerve with me. The seller is selling a very expensive 1924 Yankee Team Signed Ball:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1924-NEW-YORK-YANKEES-TEAM-SIGNED-BASEBALL-22-SIGNATURES-BABE-RUTH-JSA-/110775279457?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cab89f61

I have attached a scan of the sticker in question stating the ball was Lot 43098 in Auction #151127.

Here is a link to that particular auction:

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=151127&lotIdNo=17002

That particular auction and lot number was for a Joe Dimaggio signed ball that sold for $131 on July 3, 2011.

I'm not an autograph expert, but once again, the sticker attached to the ball at least raises questions. I hate to keep questioning items from the seller in question, but it still is an active auction. The seller just placed it on Ebay this morning as a 1 day auction.

Mike
vintagecpa@yahoo.com

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here are both auctions:

49506

49507

[ArchStanton]

I have only had this experience with PSA holders. That does not mean other holders are foolproof. It just means that PSA holders are the easiest to compromise.

And man are they easy. A simple next step for PSA would be an adhesive in the flip area that makes cracked holders harder to reuse. I don’t think PSA cares.

[vintagecpa]

Thanks for the help Christopher. Attaching pictures has never been my specialty.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Thanks for the help Christopher. Attaching pictures has never been my specialty.

You're welcome, Mike.

My point in showing both of those auctions was that someone in this thread had already pointed to the tampered label on that "1924 Yankees" signed baseball cube and yet the seller decided to list it again before researching if there is a problem.

I may be in the minority, but I have no sympathy for this seller. I do hope that the person who perpetuated this fraud is caught and penalized, but at this point we have no idea who that person is.

[MW1]

Kenny- I think the reason the Jackson was brought to a coin dealer was for exactly that reason: that you would have less expertise than a baseball card dealer, who would spot the fake more easily.Given the proliferation of Chinese PCGS counterfeits onto the coin market several years ago, I would think that coin dealers would be MORE vigilant at inspecting holders and flips that your typical baseball card enthusiast.

http://www.pcgs.com/Articles/Detail/5286
http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/ig/Fake-PCGS-Slab-Diagnostics/Counterfeit-PCGS-Slab.htm
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=647774

[vintagecpa]

I think what concerns me the most is this mornings auction. I try to put myself in the sellers shoes. If I had just found out on Saturday that 2 or 3 of my expensive baseball cards were most likely reprints in fake PSA holders, I don't think I would be listing an $8k baseball on my Sunday morning without doing a ton of research. The ball might be legit, but you can't ignore the sticker.

[dstraate]

I'm just not convinced by the seller either. It seems to me equally probable that a person might:

Try a pilot scam with a few low dollar cards, see that it works, and put your feedback to work by simultaneously listing three huge profit items: Jackson, Mantle, and Ruth. When your cover is blown by a relatively obscure message board, create a handle, say all the right things, and wait for the dust to settle.

I just don't believe you buy that Jax if your business is coins and you "don't know much about cards"

EG "John, I know you collect and sell cards, but I've got an opportunity for you. This is one of the toughest and most valuable coins in the hobby. I've just gotta get it off my hands. If you put down 5K on it right now, you'll probably double your money tomorrow on Ebay". If you where John, what would you say?!

This isn't to say that honest sellers don't get duped, but scammers always have alibi when they get uncovered, and it usually starts with "I don't know anything about it".

[YankeeCollector]

I'm just not convinced by the seller either. It seems to me equally probable that a person might:

Try a pilot scam with a few low dollar cards, see that it works, and put your feedback to work by simultaneously listing three huge profit items: Jackson, Mantle, and Ruth. When your cover is blown by a relatively obscure message board, create a handle, say all the right things, and wait for the dust to settle.

I just don't believe you buy that Jax if your business is coins and you "don't know much about cards"

EG "John, I know you collect and sell cards, but I've got an opportunity for you. This is one of the toughest and most valuable coins in the hobby. I've just gotta get it off my hands. If you put down 5K on it right now, you'll probably double your money tomorrow on Ebay". If you where John, what would you say?!

This isn't to say that honest sellers don't get duped, but scammers always have alibi when they get uncovered, and it usually starts with "I don't know anything about it".
+1

[KennyJ1970]

I know this is an old thread, but I was hoping to get some help from the community. A couple of years ago, I was listing some baseball cards, namely a Joe Jackson, and a Mickey Mantle rookie on ebay. It was brought to my attention that these were fakes, and I had several conversations with people on this forum pertaining to these cards. I no longer work for the company that listed these. The problem is...the owner continues to list fake items on his Ebay. Currently, there are at least three baseballs that are autographed, 1948 Indians ball, Joe DiMaggio ball with COA by Sports Collectors Inc., and Mickey Mantle ball, all of which I am 99% sure are not authentic. The Mickey Mantle ball was viewed by JSA and said to be not authentic. The owner believes that if he has a return policy on these items, that he is ok to sell them, however, they are still not real. Would someone on here look at the items and give your opinion and ideas to get these unlisted?

[Sean1125]

One of the auctions in question:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MICKEY-MANTLE-SIGNED-BASEBALL-/190999761949?pt=US_Autographs&hash=item2c7879141d