I conducted myself poorly and I apologize

[RichardSimon]

I want to apologize to Net54 members for exhibiting childish behavior in the thread in which I was attacked by David Atkatz.
The mature thing to do would have been to realize that responding to these attacks by Mr Atkatz would be foolish and would certainly achieve nothing. Eventually, I did realize that I was appearing childish and foolish in reacting to the insults that emanated from David Atkatz in that thread. I should have just chosen to ignore it.
I appreciate the supportive posts and supportive e mails that I have gotten in the aftermath of this. Most especially appreciate the words from someone on this board that I and others have the utmost respect for.
In closing I just want to state that I mistakenly believed the apology that I received by e mail and I should have just ignored the unprovoked attacks that came after the apology. I overreacted.
I was angered by the attack thread, started by Mr Atkatz, which was started after Mr Atkatz had apologized to me and had admitted to me that he had started the initial conflict. I thought it was over after he did that.
But he then chose to extend the conflict, in new threads, and I overreacted. I should have taken the high road immediately, ignoring him completely, and I regret not doing that.
I will not conduct myself in this manner again.

[drc]

We all act badly and have our bad public moments sometimes. It's not a big deal to me.

[baseball tourist]

Richard, I don't know you and mean you no disrespect, but may I ask if you will be apologizing for wasting our time with your facetious apology?

[thekingofclout]

I want to apologize to Net54 members for exhibiting childish behavior in the thread in which I was attacked by David Atkatz.
The mature thing to do would have been to realize that responding to these attacks by Mr Atkatz would be foolish and would certainly achieve nothing. Eventually, I did realize that I was appearing childish and foolish in reacting to the insults that emanated from David Atkatz in that thread. I should have just chosen to ignore it.
I appreciate the supportive posts and supportive e mails that I have gotten in the aftermath of this. Most especially appreciate the words from someone on this board that I and others have the utmost respect for.
In closing I just want to state that I mistakenly believed the apology that I received by e mail and I should have just ignored the unprovoked attacks that came after the apology. I overreacted.
I was angered by the attack thread, started by Mr Atkatz, which was started after Mr Atkatz had apologized to me and had admitted to me that he had started the initial conflict. I thought it was over after he did that.
But he then chose to extend the conflict, in new threads, and I overreacted. I should have taken the high road immediately, ignoring him completely, and I regret not doing that.
I will not conduct myself in this manner again.

Richard, I don't know you and mean you no disrespect, but may I ask if you will be apologizing for wasting our time with your facetious apology?

I must concur with Chris.

[Forever Young]

That is very nice of you to say you are sorry.... David is JUST THE WORST isn't he???

[thetruthisoutthere]

Personally, I don't think any apology was needed from Richard, but I respect the fact that he did.

I hate to be redundant, but like I wrote, the original thread was dead; it became a non-issue that was just between David and Richard. Why did David have to revive it? Why? There was no reason to revive it.

If I was in Richard's shoes I would have reacted to David's comment, too.

[vintagechris]

We all have our moments but I have to agree with the others who have replied to this. Richard, when you said you were done with that thread earlier, you continued to pile on David while saying you were going to be the grown up in the situation.

Now again, you seem to be doing the same thing while still trying to plead your case for why you were right. I have no disrespect for either of you but if either or both of you really wanted to act like grown ups, you might try calling each other and apologizing to each other and work it out like men instead of battling on a message board. Just a suggestion.

I didn't vote in the poll, mainly because there was not an option for two people who had a disagreement to work it out. That would be my vote.

I honestly don't mean any disrespect to either of you, it just seems like it is time to step back and think about this. Someone always has to be the bigger person in a disagreement to actually start moving forward.

IMO, it's not truly being the bigger person by saying you are going to be the bigger person and then continuing to state your case as to why you are right and the other person is wrong.

One of the things I have always enjoyed about this board is there is usually not too much of the typical message board behavior of putting others down,making people feel silly for a difference of opinion, or some of the other childish things you usually see on other boards, here's a vote for us getting back to that.

Chris

[keithsky]

I to don't know either of you and no disrespect also but reading the apology it still almost sounds like your still attacking the guy by using his name over and over. Now the thread is going to start all over again with people siding with you guys again. Be done with it. keith janosky

[RichardSimon]

Chris,
I appreciate your thoughts on the matter but this quote of yours is something I don't understand: "Richard, when you said you were done with that thread earlier, you continued to pile on David while saying you were going to be the grown up in the situation."
Chris, you specifically refer to me as piling on David.
If you want to consider my apology here to be piling on then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
But the only post I made in that initial long thread after I said I would no longer keep up the arguing was to show a Babe Ruth autograph in quotes, when that question came up on the thread.
As to the thread with the poll,,, I made posts about Willie Mays, Brooks Robinson and card show experiences with them and a COA about Mantle autographs where I admittedly made an error.
Unless I have missed something I cannot find one post in those two threads where I "piled on" David after I said I would stop.

[ss]

I am a huge fan of Richard's and believe he was justified in everything he did. But, i have to agree that is the worst apology i've ever seen.but I don't blame him for that either.

[thekingofclout]

Chris,
I appreciate your thoughts on the matter but this quote of yours is something I don't understand: "Richard, when you said you were done with that thread earlier, you continued to pile on David while saying you were going to be the grown up in the situation."
Chris, you specifically refer to me as piling on David.
If you want to consider my apology here to be piling on then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
But the only post I made in that initial long thread after I said I would no longer keep up the arguing was to show a Babe Ruth autograph in quotes, when that question came up on the thread.
As to the thread with the poll,,, I made posts about Willie Mays, Brooks Robinson and card show experiences with them and a COA about Mantle autographs where I admittedly made an error.
Unless I have missed something I cannot find one post in those two threads where I "piled on" David after I said I would stop.

Uh oh...

[Forever Young]

BTW….Sarcastic :D should have been inserted after my comment. David is not the worst I have met in this hobby..not even close.

[travrosty]

Richard apologized so I think it is fair to accept it.

[thekingofclout]

BTW….Sarcastic :D should have been inserted after my comment. David is not the worst I have met in this hobby..not even close.

You're right Ben... I am!

[Forever Young]

You're right Ben... I am!

Actually...my vote is for Graig Kreindler... he is one mean, crazy mo fo.

[Runscott]

These recent threads are about to reduce me to begging: Can we please separate this forum into TWO separate forums, so the vintage memorabilia collectors can avoid this tripe?

1) vintage memorabilia (non-COA stuff)
2) autographs and game-used

[batsballsbases]

Here Here. I agree, Richard my friend ENOUGH PLEASE!

[sayhey24]

Agreed that that is the worst apology ever.

Also agree that a separate autograph forum be created. But please don't include game used items with autographs. Just like most memorabilia collectors, we don't want to be subjected to the endless threads about the latest bogus Ruth or Mantle autograph spotted on ebay.

Greg

[ramram]

The Memorabilia side has finally arrived!!

These squabbles used to just be a part of the Card side of Net54.

Rob M.

[Runscott]

Agreed that that is the worst apology ever.

Also agree that a separate autograph forum be created. But please don't include game used items with autographs. Just like most memorabilia collectors, we don't want to be subjected to the endless threads about the latest bogus Ruth or Mantle autograph spotted on ebay.

Greg

What about all the squabbles about bats and jerseys that are certified as game-used, but end up not being?

To someone who doesn't collect game-used or autographs, they seem like part of the same cluster f**k

Scott <== never wanted to be a fireman

[thekingofclout]

Agreed that that is the worst apology ever.

Also agree that a separate autograph forum be created. But please don't include game used items with autographs. Just like most memorabilia collectors, we don't want to be subjected to the endless threads about the latest bogus Ruth or Mantle autograph spotted on ebay.

Greg

What about all the squabbles about bats and jerseys that are certified as game-used, but end up not being?

To someone who doesn't collect game-used or autographs, they seem like part of the same cluster f**k

Scott <== never wanted to be a fireman

That's a good idea Greg, a very good idea. And Scott, I can't remember the last time there was a squabble regarding Bats and Jerseys being legit. I'm sure there have been, but it would be miniscule compared to autographs.

[RichardSimon]

That's a good idea Greg, a very good idea. And Scott, I can't remember the last time there was a squabble regarding Bats and Jerseys being legit. I'm sure there have been, but it would be miniscule compared to autographs.

I am sure most everyone knows already but the latest FBI bust involved six guys selling bogus jerseys. None of the names on that FBI list sold autographs as far as I know. There is massive dirt involved in both autographs and game used. Though I would have to concede that there is more dirt in autographs.

[thekingofclout]

I am sure most everyone knows already but the latest FBI bust involved six guys selling bogus uniforms. None of the names on that FBI list sold autographs as far as I know.

You are correct Richard. However did anyone from this board get burned? Also, just how many fellow collectors have gotten screwed by Coach's Corner?

[RichardSimon]

I have no idea if anyone on this board got burned.
It is certainly possible but I don't think anyone has come forward yet and said they did.
The number of fellow collectors screwed by CC is beyond anyone's calculation.

[Runscott]

That's a good idea Greg, a very good idea. And Scott, I can't remember the last time there was a squabble regarding Bats and Jerseys being legit. I'm sure there have been, but it would be miniscule compared to autographs.

That could be. I just know that I've never trusted modern game-used anything. It was very refreshing the other day to see you guys i.d. the Munson World Series jersey. I love hearing that things are as real as they are certified to be.

Autographs are just nuts - as a kid who used to get free autographs from pro players (I still have every one of them), I can't imagine standing in line and paying a guy to sign something. I have only bought autographs from dead guys.

Trimmed and altered cards are just as bad.

All of the above are why I ended up gravitating to cool old stuff that no one would have any incentive to mess with.

[mschwade]

You are correct Richard. However did anyone from this board get burned? Also, just how many fellow collectors have gotten screwed by Coach's Corner?

This is beyond disgusting... $1,032 and 22 bids:

http://myccsa.com/pics/225/292004.jpg

[JimH5]

Richard, you have been (and continue to be) a terrific force in the autograph business.

I've only done business with you once, but have read the newsletter section on your site regularly for many years.

I appreciate your work in trying to clean up the hobby.

My presence here is almost exclusively as a lurker, but I read your posts with the recognition that you are highly skilled and honorable.

You don't need to apologize to me.

[RichardSimon]

This is beyond disgusting... $1,032 and 22 bids:

http://myccsa.com/pics/225/292004.jpg



Considering the stuff I am seeing on other locations, I am believing that dealers are major participants in CC auctions and this stuff gets shoveled around the hobby several times.

[travrosty]

the person doing that piece got greedy, if he just would have done the ruth and stopped there are too many who want to cert any ruth that comes by.

[sam majors]

Not saying either man is a fool but Mark Twains quote about arguing with a fool sure applied here!

[thetruthisoutthere]

the person doing that piece got greedy, if he just would have done the ruth and stopped there are too many who want to cert any ruth that comes by.

I'm sure it took Chris Morales five minutes to "authenticate" this piece of crap.

48953

[Lordstan]

I don't think separating the autographs from memorabilia is needed.
First of there aren't that many posts on this side to begin with. Second, you already have a way to not read posts about Collectors Corner, bogus Ruths. Don't open them!
People have complained before about autograph threads, yet they still read them. Why? People complain about bickering threads, yet they still read them. Why? So far, between the first Simon vs Atkatz thread, the "Who do you side with?" thread, and this thread they have 7379 views and 190 replies since 10/31(4 days). In contrast, the "Centerpice of your collection thread" has only 3329 views and 56 replies since 10/23 (11d).
It seems strange to me that the stuff people complain about is the stuff they read. Even Scott, who brought up separating autographs was the last person to post in the "authenticity question" thread. You read 34 posts prior to posting your self. If you don't like those threads, why did you read it?

I guess I like everything together, because I don't have to bounce from forum to forum. Don't read the threads that don't interest you!

Oh and BTW, I have seen arguments on the forum for many things including cards, photos, autos, bats, outing auctions, and the list goes on. I've also seen threads about fake signs/display items, fake pennants, and hucksters selling all manner of fake crap. It's gonna happen no matter how you seprate things. Just avoid the things you don't like.
Just my 2c.

Best to all,
Mark

[mschwade]

I'm sure it took Chris Morales five minutes to "authenticate" this piece of crap.

48953

If anyone wants to give me a $1,000, my 2 year old could probably "get" you a 1927 Yankees team signed sheet. Might come in different colored crayons, but would probably pass Christopher Morales' examination.

[mschwade]

the person doing that piece got greedy, if he just would have done the ruth and stopped there are too many who want to cert any ruth that comes by.

How funny would it be to see an LOA from Christopher Morales stating that the Ruth auto "appears to be genuine" but all the others are believed to be Clubhouse.

[Runscott]

I don't think separating the autographs from memorabilia is needed.
First of there aren't that many posts on this side to begin with. Second, you already have a way to not read posts about Collectors Corner, bogus Ruths. Don't open them!
People have complained before about autograph threads, yet they still read them. Why? People complain about bickering threads, yet they still read them. Why? So far, between the first Simon vs Atkatz thread, the "Who do you side with?" thread, and this thread they have 7379 views and 190 replies since 10/31(4 days). In contrast, the "Centerpice of your collection thread" has only 3329 views and 56 replies since 10/23 (11d).
It seems strange to me that the stuff people complain about is the stuff they read. Even Scott, who brought up separating autographs was the last person to post in the "authenticity question" thread. You read 34 posts prior to posting your self. If you don't like those threads, why did you read it?

I guess I like everything together, because I don't have to bounce from forum to forum. Don't read the threads that don't interest you!

Oh and BTW, I have seen arguments on the forum for many things including cards, photos, autos, bats, outing auctions, and the list goes on. I've also seen threads about fake signs/display items, fake pennants, and hucksters selling all manner of fake crap. It's gonna happen no matter how you seprate things. Just avoid the things you don't like.
Just my 2c.

Best to all,
Mark

Mark, using your logic we could just lump in a forum on Cabbage Patch dolls, and maybe even one on venereal disease. Any thread you don't like, just don't open it.

[Runscott]

This is beyond disgusting... $1,032 and 22 bids:

http://myccsa.com/pics/225/292004.jpg

This item stinks immediately, just because the autographs never overlap in any way. Pro baseball players just aren't that careful.

[Leon]

I don't think separating the autographs from memorabilia is needed.
First of there aren't that many posts on this side to begin with. Second, you already have a way to not read posts about Collectors Corner, bogus Ruths. Don't open them!
People have complained before about autograph threads, yet they still read them. Why? People complain about bickering threads, yet they still read them. Why? So far, between the first Simon vs Atkatz thread, the "Who do you side with?" thread, and this thread they have 7379 views and 190 replies since 10/31(4 days). In contrast, the "Centerpice of your collection thread" has only 3329 views and 56 replies since 10/23 (11d).
It seems strange to me that the stuff people complain about is the stuff they read. Even Scott, who brought up separating autographs was the last person to post in the "authenticity question" thread. You read 34 posts prior to posting your self. If you don't like those threads, why did you read it?

I guess I like everything together, because I don't have to bounce from forum to forum. Don't read the threads that don't interest you!

Oh and BTW, I have seen arguments on the forum for many things including cards, photos, autos, bats, outing auctions, and the list goes on. I've also seen threads about fake signs/display items, fake pennants, and hucksters selling all manner of fake crap. It's gonna happen no matter how you seprate things. Just avoid the things you don't like.
Just my 2c.

Best to all,
Mark

Not to fret Mark....we are on the same page. I just sit back and listen. Anyone on this forum long enough knows that change isn't something taken lightly. I don't see any new forums forming concerning this issue. (but I hope everyone keeps making suggestions, they are fun to read)

[mark evans]

I don't believe I'm owed an apology by anyone. People get in spats, even public spats at times. So long as they don't run on forever.

Mark

[Runscott]

Not to fret Mark....we are on the same page. I just sit back and listen. Anyone on this forum long enough knows that change isn't something taken lightly. I don't see any new forums forming concerning this issue. (but I hope everyone keeps making suggestions, they are fun to read)

If I remember the super-old discussions about this, the logic was that it's a pre-war baseball card forum and any sub-forum not in that specific area is lucky to exist.

I also visit pool forums and vintage clothing forums. I wouldn't want to seem them lumped together, any more than I would want to see autographs lumped in with vintage memorabilia, but that's just me.

[thetruthisoutthere]

This item stinks immediately, just because the autographs never overlap in any way. Pro baseball players just aren't that careful.

And there's "The Babe" right at the top and it's conveniently dated "1932."

[barrysloate]

As Scott said, look how neat that team sheet is. Every signature is on an imaginary straight line, and each one is equidistant from the one above, the one below, and the one next to it. It's great to see an entire team of major leaguers so fastidious about their penmanship.

[slidekellyslide]

These recent threads are about to reduce me to begging: Can we please separate this forum into TWO separate forums, so the vintage memorabilia collectors can avoid this tripe?

1) vintage memorabilia (non-COA stuff)
2) autographs and game-used

When the autograph stuff really started to take over this side of the board we had more than a few non-auto memorabilia collectors mention that they'd like to see a split..I know that a few of those members have nearly stopped participating in this forum and honestly as a non-auto collector myself I've found myself much less interested in what's going on over here and I'm a moderator!! I hate to see what's happened recently as this side has almost always been fairly peaceful..The apology above was just ridiculous IMO. Some people love the drama though.

[Lordstan]

Mark, using your logic we could just lump in a forum on Cabbage Patch dolls, and maybe even one on venereal disease. Any thread you don't like, just don't open it.

Scott,
If you can show how Cabbage Patch dolls fit in a PreWWII baseball Vintage memorabilia category feel free to post away. (I was going to include VD above, but I remembered the letter Mantle wrote describing his favorite memory of Yankee stadium as being a hummer he got below the bleachers. So I guess it might fit in certain circumstances:D)
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.lettersofnote.com/2011/02/mickey-mantles-outstanding-experience.html&sa=U&ei=Uky0TqP_J-be2QXi2t3MDQ&ved=0CBMQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFEDCLpfuZ_su1GHIFNr5ZPZUNmNQ

Listen, I don't want to argue with you. We each have our own opinion and that is fine. Autographs are sports memorabilia and many are vintage. Therefore they fit the forum criteria. I do agree that posts about Mantle signatures, while often informative, are a little off topic as they are all post war. I say a little, because not that long ago Leon changed the forum name to "(Primarily) Vintage." OTOH, posts about fake Ruths and bogus Mathewsons are absolutely on topic, just like posts about fake pennants that were on ebay and the fake Yankee silver serving platters, among others.

Best to all,
Mark

[Runscott]

Listen, I don't want to argue with you.

Hi Mark,

I know, you want to state your opinion and have me accept it. Why aren't cards and memorabilia grouped together? They're similar. Why aren't pre-war and post-war cards grouped together? They're similar. Autographs and memorabilia? Not really all that similar. Same for cabbage patch dolls and memorabilia, although neither involve autographs so there could be an argument that they are more similar.

Basically, each person wants the forums organized according to their own collecting tastes. What's good for the majority is not actually how the break-out is determined. This is a pre-war baseball card forum - all else falls where the owner wants it to.

[perezfan]

I completely agree with Mark (Lordstan) on this. I have always considered autographs to be a key segment of the Memorabilia realm. There are fakes in every aspect of memorabilia, so how is this any different?

The Memorabilia Board gets about a third as many posts as the Card side. So what's the harm here? I choose not to read all the threads asking to identify some obscure player in the back row of a mutilated team photo. Can't people simply choose to ignore the autograph threads, if they are that repulsed by them?

[Runscott]

I completely agree with Mark (Lordstan) on this. I have always considered autographs to be a key segment of the Memorabilia realm. There are fakes in every aspect of memorabilia, so how is this any different?

The Memorabilia Board gets about a third as many posts as the Card side. So what's the harm here? I choose not to read all the threads asking to identify some obscure player in the back row of a mutilated team photo. Can't people simply choose to ignore the autograph threads, if they are that repulsed by them?

Mark, for the reasons you state, there is no harm at all. I only suggested it because the autograph and game-used scam stories kind of make me want to throw up. That's all.

As far as ignoring certain threads; again, we could add cabbage patch dolls and you could ignore those. There's no logic in that logic. The discussion as to what forums belong together should be based on relevance, not our ability as humans to ignore things we're not interested in.

[perezfan]

It's ok not to agree on this one, Scott...

I know autographs aren't everyone's cup of tea. I prefer a lot of other memorabilia types to autographs. But I happen to like them mixed in with the other items I have on display. I can certainly respect the fact that others might not.

To each his own... it's all good. I think the only fundamental difference is that some see autographs as a completely different realm, and some see it as memorabilia ;)

[Ulidia]

I'm a big-time lurker hereand don't take sides as I don't know the personalities nor do I feel the need to. The recent interaction doesn't reflect well on either Richard or David but that's outweighed by their overall interaction on this board and, importantly, the insight that they have given unitl now.

I hope that doesn't stop. I hope the bickering does.

[Lordstan]

Edit:
Post removed.

I thought about this post all day long.
I regretted posting it about a half hour after I did. I have had no internet access all day so I could only post now.
Too much energy wasted on everyone's part with no point.
I apologize to all of you for wasting your time.
Scott,
I apologize to you as well. Dumb argument for no reason.

Back to collecting and showing it off, the things we all agree on.
Best to everyone,
Mark

[Runscott]

Edited - apologizing to myself for wasting my own time responding to that post.

Cards and 'everything else' is the way it is and the way it always has been. These discussions only serve to amuse the powers that be.

[Runscott]

Post removed. I concede to losing the discussion. :)

[batsballsbases]

GAME SET MATCH !! NOW LETS ALL MOVE ON TO BETTER THINGS! :eek::eek:

[Runscott]

GAME SET MATCH !! NOW LETS ALL MOVE ON TO BETTER THINGS! :eek::eek:

I really hate tla's, especially in text-speak, but lol

[Runscott]

Edit:
Post removed.

I thought about this post all day long.
I regretted posting it about a half hour after I did. I have had no internet access all day so I could only post now.
Too much energy wasted on everyone's part with no point.
I apologize to all of you for wasting your time.
Scott,
I apologize to you as well. Dumb argument for no reason.

Back to collecting and showing it off, the things we all agree on.
Best to everyone,
Mark

Hi Mark,

Just read this - thanks, and my apologies as well, for taking kind of an elitist attitude about this stuff. I am definitely opinionated.

[Lordstan]

Scott,

It's all good.
Sometimes we all just get caught up in the moment.

Mark