One T206, Two Names

[Jantz]

I wanted to post a scan of this T206 since I know there are a few other board members who are interested in T206s with multiple names. I was one of the underbidders on this Ebay auction that ended tonight. Anyway, here is a scan of the front and back. Bender is the name on the top.


Jantz

[marvjung]

I watched that auction - ending price was pretty strong imo.

[t206hound]

Jantz, I was the winner of the card. I had to look at that card twelve times to make sure I wasn't seeing things. A nice companion to my Chase-Zimmerman.

[tiger8mush]

The only T206 I have w/two names is Wilson, Pittsburgh - P350/25. His name is on both top and bottom. Most t206s that I've seen have the same name top and bottom.

So what does this say about the cards printed on a sheet? Were there different players on each sheet for Piedmont 150 series but many rows of the same player per sheet for Piedmont 350 run?

[t206hound]

Jantz has a lot of information on the "two different name" T206s. I don't know if anyone has deciphered a pattern or has a theory. I believe the Bradley-Bender brings the number of known cards that exhibit this to 19. I have a list (and scans) somewhere... just have to dig it up.

[danmckee]

I had a few dozen of these that I got in a huge T206 error collection I bought. I sold a bunch on ebay and they never brought much. I think I still have a few left but I am fairly sure all have the same player's name top and bottom. I will try to dig them out and check the names.

[carrigansghost]

Dan, you sent me a Carrigan a few years ago that had his name top and bottom, sit resides over my desk and again thank you.

Rawn

[mrvster]

:D Adda boy Erick!! Jantz, u have the eye......proud of u guys....:)

[Ladder7]

Great stuff. Cant recall seeing two different names on any of this type of freak. A rarity of a rarity.


If anyone is keeping score., Add a Stovall and Cicotte to the list.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/oche16/The%20Jane%20Collection/misprintsx19.jpg

[t206hound]

I'm fairly certain about the existence of the following twenty. I was able to find scans of 17 of them via Google this evening. I bolded the ones I couldn't find. The Engle-Phillippe is the most dramatic of the group, with most of the card displaying Phillippe.

01. Abbaticchio(Brown)-Cicotte (Piedmont 350)
02. Atz-Hoffman (Piedmont 350)
03. Bradley-Bender (Piedmont 150)
04. Chase(BluePortrait)-Zimmerman (Piedmont 350)
05. Delehanty(Washington)-Waddell
06. Elberfeld(NewYork)-Parent (Piedmont 350)
07. Engle-Phillippe (Piedmont 350)
08. Hoblitzell-Stephens (Piedmont 350)
09. Jennings(Portrait)-Jordan (Piedmont 350)
10. Killian(Pitching)-Chance (Piedmont 150)
11. Killian(Portrait)-Dubuc (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30)
12. Lindaman-Bresnahan (Piedmont 150)
13. Lundgren(Cubs)-Ball
14. Lundgren(Cubs)-Doolin
15. McElveen-Dygert (Piedmont 350)
16. McGlynn-Jones (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30)
17. Pickering-Myers (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory ?)
18. Snodgrass(Batting)-Maddox (Piedmont 350)
19. Spade-Cicotte (Piedmont 150)
20. Turner-Lobert

I also ran across reports of two others, but I don't recall ever seeing a scan of them:
Rossman-McBride
McGraw-Keeler

[ruth-gehrig]

I just saw one tonight rummaging through some older gentleman's stuff. I didn't get it (yet) because we need to sort through the cards. It was a weird collection...many original cards, 2 graded...and several I believe were fake!:confused:

[Abravefan11]

When examples come up with two different names on one card it's important to my research to know which back brand, series and factory number is on the card. Anytime this information can be included with a post it would be greatly appreciated.

[Anthony S.]

I own a copy of the Snodgrass (batting) with Maddox's name on top. It's a Piedmont 350, Fact. no. 25.

When examples come up with two different names on one card it's important to my research to know which back brand, series and factory number is on the card. Anytime this information can be included with a post it would be greatly appreciated.

[t206hound]

Jantz may have more info, but this is what I know from other threads:

01. Abbaticchio(Brown)-Cicotte (Piedmont 350)
02. Atz-Hoffman (Piedmont 350)
03. Bradley-Bender (Piedmont 150)
04. Chase(BluePortrait)-Zimmerman (Piedmont 350)
05. Delehanty(Washington)-Waddell
06. Elberfeld(NewYork)-Parent (Piedmont 350)
07. Engle-Phillippe (Piedmont 350)
08. Hoblitzell-Stephens (Piedmont 350)
09. Jennings(Portrait)-Jordan (Piedmont 350)
10. Killian(Pitching)-Chance (Piedmont 150)
11. Killian(Portrait)-Dubuc (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30)
12. Lindaman-Bresnahan (Piedmont 150)
13. Lundgren(Cubs)-Ball
14. Lundgren(Cubs)-Doolin
15. McElveen-Dygert (Piedmont 350)
16. McGlynn-Jones (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30)
17. Pickering-Myers (Sweet Caporal 350 Factory ?)
18. Snodgrass(Batting)-Maddox (Piedmont 350)
19. Spade-Cicotte (Piedmont 150)
20. Turner-Lobert

[Abravefan11]

Thanks Anthony and Erick that information is greatly appreciated.

[teetwoohsix]

Great thread Jantz, and great info Erick. So, it seems the majority are Piedmont & Sweet Caporal 150 & 350....anyone seen any of these in the 460 series?

Sincerely, Clayton

[Jantz]

Here is all the information that I have been able to gather on two different name T206s so far.

01. Abbaticchio (brown)-Cicotte PD350
02. Atz - Hoffman (Providence) PD350
03. Bradley (port.) - Bender PD150-25
04. Chase (blue port.) - Zimmerman PD350-25
05. Delehanty (Wash.) - Waddell back unknown
06. Elberfeld (NY port.) - Parent PD350
07. Engle - Phillippe PD350-25
08. Hoblitzell - Stephens PD350
09. Jennings (port.) - T. Jordan (Brooklyn) PD350-25
10. Killian (pitching) - Chance PD150
11. Killian (port.) - Dubuc SC350-30
12. Lindaman - Bresnahan PD150-25
13. Lundgren (Cubs) - Ball (NY) back unknown
14. Lundgren (Cubs) - Doolin PD150-25
15. McElveen - Dygert PD350
16. McGlynn - Jones (Detroit) SC350-30
17. Pickering - Myers (?) SC350
18. Snodgrass (batting) - Maddox PD350-25
19. Spade - Cicotte PD150-25
20. Turner - Lobert back unknown
21. McGraw (no cap port.) - Chesbro back unknown

Most of these cards are owned by board members and I have gotten my information and scans from them. The exceptions being #20 & 21 which came from T206museum. I've read the history of that website and it's owner, but I cannot rule out the possibility (at this time) that those two cards are legit.

Clayton - So far, none from the 460 series.

Erick - I was going to pass along the information about #21 to you after I won the Bradley/Bender ;) I'm glad the Bradley/Bender has a good home now.

Tim - Hopefully the board members who own some of these cards will add some more information to the list.


Jantz

[mrvster]

I own#6 #10 and #17.......and yes on #17!! ur right on the back Jantz...btw , email me Jantz, u rock!!:D

Jantz, Tim, Erick, and Clayton......plz keep up the great stats, were counting on you guys....


if anyone wants to part with one of these, lmk, or any t206 freaks;)

[t206hound]

20. Turner - Lobert back unknown
21. McGraw (no cap port.) - Chesbro back unknown

Most of these cards are owned by board members and I have gotten my information and scans from them. The exceptions being #20 & 21 which came from T206museum. I've read the history of that website and it's owner, but I cannot rule out the possibility (at this time) that those two cards are legit.
Jantz

The Turner-Lobert was in the September 2007 Sotheby's auction. I'd say that makes it a legit.
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/35575027#/35575027/36

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks Jantz- this is great info, and I appreciate you guys sharing your research with us.

21 known to exist- I'd say that makes these extremely rare. I'd guess that there could be a few more floating around out there "unknown"- just a guess.

I think they are awesome !!!

Johnny- how's it going my friend? :D Hope all is well on the East coast-

Sincerely, Clayton

[ruth-gehrig]

I don't really collect cards but like I said earlier while rummaging through some gentleman's other stuff for sale I noticed a t-206 with a name on partial name on top and bottom. So let me see if I've got this right...as of now we know of 21 different cards within this set with two names on the front of the card? That's not saying there are only 21 known cards known TOTAL does it? That would be more rare than the Wagner!:eek:

[mrvster]

Clayton,

GREAT!!!thanx for asking, how bout you in sin city?????....just picked up an upside down om back southern leagurer($700)! that will look sweet in the collection of my upside down backs...how are you??call me this weekend;)


ur dude


v

[atx840]

The rare ones have two different names on them, double name of the same player are quite common.

[t206hound]

I don't really collect cards but like I said earlier while rummaging through some gentleman's other stuff for sale I noticed a t-206 with a name on partial name on top and bottom. So let me see if I've got this right...as of now we know of 21 different cards within this set with two names on the front of the card? That's not saying there are only 21 known cards known TOTAL does it? That would be more rare than the Wagner!:eek:
Based on Jantz' research and what I've been able to find over the last few months online, there are 21 scans that have been shared/collected of miscut T206 cards with a different name on top. There are certain to be more out there, but those are the ones that are now known.

[ruth-gehrig]

Hopefully I'll be able to snag the one I saw Tues. I don't remember but I'm pretty sure the top and bottom name were pretty much impossible to decipher but I will post a scan if I can get it. Like I said I'm not real informed about cards just knew it was pretty neat when I saw it.

[t206hound]

http://gallery.me.com/kimsummers/100059/mosaic/web.jpg?ver=13186380380001

*Edited... thanks Tim for the missing scan

[Abravefan11]

Currently missing the Lundgren-Ball:


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-FmEIEsub4vI/TpjO07DGhCI/AAAAAAAAFdM/JTkuU7e4yNM/s512/317726886_o%25255B1%25255D.jpg

[Gradedcardman]

Guys,

I have gone through some recent additions and have this card too add to the checklist. This is a Livingstone/Maloney 2 name card. Scans are attached.

[drumback]

I had a Keeler - McGraw combo a few years ago. If I remember correctly, I offered it on this forum at a pretty low price, and there were no takers. So, I ebayed it, and it flopped. But I guarantee you, it does exist. Wish I had kept a scan.

[Texxxx]

Here is another one for the list. It is a Bill Graham with a Josh Clark on top with a SC 350 F30 back. I also have a Wallace that is MC with a blank top. I am pretty sure there is enough blank card on top if there was a card above it the name would show. I know it is not a big deal but if anyone is trying to put together a sheet layout the info might help.

[dog*dirt]

Here is a Konetchy Piedmont 350 with same name on top and bottom.

[mrvster]

sweet card bruce....lmk if u ever want to part with it;)


peace

johnny

[Jantz]

Just wanted to say thanks to Bruce & other members for posting their information on these two-namers.

I myself, along with a few other board members record all of these examples. Maybe someday it will help with putting a sheet together.



Jantz

[Runscott]

Add the Bender portrait with 'Delahanty, Washington' at the top.

[hank_jp]

I have the following:

Turner/Lobert - it has a Piedmont 350 back
Bowerman with Chance on top - SC 350
McGraw with Hayden on top - SC 350
Stahl with glove - majorly miscut - top 1/4 of card is blank [white with no
printing, including back] - Piedmont 350

Hank

[ScottFandango]

Here is a Konetchy Piedmont 350 with same name on top and bottom.

is this a double print on the sheet then?

[atx840]

Hopefully a board member picked this up. Great card.

http://i.imgur.com/mPjN7.jpg

[t206hound]

Hopefully a board member picked this up. Great card.

I was the under bidder... Didn't think someone would go to $800 with the juice. Very nice card, though. And I do hope someone here got it.

[mrvster]

Chris!!! ERICK!!

CRAP!!!:(


hoping one of you guys scored it....:mad:

Get that card!

[Runscott]

Not as cool as a '2 different names', but I really like this Byrne I got from Greg (GNaz) - thanks!

[Runscott]

I could have sworn I posted this - sorry if it's a duplicate:

[atx840]

Others not listed on here. Criger/Ritchey & Bresnahan/Doolin are MIA.

http://i.imgur.com/mS2en.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7PSUP.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/quAcX.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/y534N.jpg

[Runscott]

I'll leave this to for the printer-experts like Steve to ponder, but the Bender with two names clearly has the top and bottom names printed closer together than on the same-name cards (Seymour is a top-of-sheet card posted for reference, and Bresnahan is just for reference). It would be interesting to see if this is a trend, or just a coincidence - Chris probably has enough scans of the two types of 2-name cards to check it out if he is so inclined.

Also, the spacing on McGraw's two names is a touch farther apart than on the other two-name cards.

[atx840]

Great pickup, I've noticed that the names can be all over the place hight wise.

A two name card has to be the top example on the bottom half of a sheet with a lower printed name from the above different player then by chance cut long/top player cut short.

Several things had to happen to get the Bender like that, a neat "rarity" for sure.

[Jantz]

Since the list of two-namers has grown, here is my updated list. If anyone can add anything to my list or fill in any gaps, it would be greatly appreciated. Especially if its a typo or incorrect info. :eek: Thanks to all the members who helped add to this list.

Player Card Name on Top Card Back (if known)

1. Abbatichio(brown) Cicotte PD 350
2. Atz Hoffman PD 350
3. Bradley(port) Bender(port) PD 150-25
4. Chase(blue port) Zimmerman PD 350-25
5. Delehanty(Wash) Waddell(port)
6. Elberfeld(NY port) Parent PD350
7. Engle Phillippe PD350-25
8. Hoblitzell Stephens PD350
9. Jennings(port) T.Jordan(Bkln.port) PD350-25
10. Killian(pitch) Chance(red port) PD150
11. Killian(port) Dubuc SC 350-30
12. Lindaman Bresnahan(port) PD150-25
13. Lundgren(Cubs) Ball(NY)
14. Lundgren(Cubs) Doolin PD 150-25
15. McElveen Dygert PD350
16. McGlynn Jones(Det) SC 350-30
17. Pickering Myers(?) SC 350
18. Snodgrass(bat) Maddox PD 350-25
19. Spade Cicotte PD 150-25
20. Turner Lobert PD 350
21. McGraw(port no cap) Chesbro
22. Powell(horizontal) O'Leary(port) PD 150
23. Barbeau Strang SC 350-30
24. Criger Ritchey
25. Rossman Thomas SC 350 30
26. Bresnahan(port) Doolin
27. Livingstone Maloney PD 350 25
28. Graham(St.L) Clark SC 350 30
29. Bender(port) Delehanty(Wash) PD 150 25
30. Bowerman Chance(port, color ?) SC 350
31. McGraw(?) Hayden SC 350
32. Keeler(?) McGraw(?)


Jantz

[BobbyVCP]

More for you from VCP the are all listed in our T206 GMO set which stands for Ghosts, Miscuts and oddities.

Adkins ( I can not make out the top)
Barry-Shad
Crandall/Crandall (Tolstoi back)
Doyle-bat (Tolstoi back)
Dubuc
Evers-port
Flick
Hahn/Hahn (SC)
Krause-port
Merkle-throwing (Tolstoi back)
Mitchel-Mike
Needham/Needham
Parent
Paskert
Shaw-Hunky
Smith-Happy/Smith-Happy
Walsh
Williams
Willis-bat/Willis-bat (Old Mill)

There are images of all cards but some are to hard to make out what the top name is for certain.

[Runscott]

More for you from VCP the are all listed in our T206 GMO set which stands for Ghosts, Miscuts and oddities.


Bobby, how do you do such a search on the VCP site? I keep coming up with "no results"

[T206Collector]

But if

(A) Most top-bottom miscuts show the same name

and

(B) Most left-right miscuts show the same player

then

(C) Wouldn't most sheets be of just one player?

[t206hound]

But if

(A) Most top-bottom miscuts show the same name

and

(B) Most left-right miscuts show the same player

then

(C) Wouldn't most sheets be of just one player?

I don't believe (B) to be true... my recollection is that ALL of the left-rights that I've seen have been of different players.

[Brian Weisner]

All of the side to side miscuts that I have seen show a different player...
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0004-1.jpg

Be well Brian

[tiger8mush]

A two name card has to be the top example on the bottom half of a sheet with a lower printed name from the above different player then by chance cut long/top player cut short.


So were there only two players per printed sheet? Top half of the sheet was one player, bottom half another player?

[atx840]

All side by side cards I have seen have a different players. One theory is the layout could have 3 or 4 rows of each player and a dozen+ columns.

If the first row of EFGH cards are miscut they could show the names of the last ABCD row.

ABCD
ABCD
EFGH
EFGH

[Runscott]

All side by side cards I have seen have a different players. One theory is the layout could have 3 or 4 rows of each player and a dozen+ columns.

If the first row of EFGH cards are miscut they could show the names of the last ABCD row.

ABCD
ABCD
EFGH
EFGH

Great stuff, Chris - I wasn't aware of this. Since some cards exist with two different names above them, it sounds like positioning was not set in 'stone' :p

[atx840]

Exactly, we have seen your Bender, Lundgren and Cicotte in different player combinations. The Bender is extra neat as so far it the only example of a card being a top and bottom card.

I'm doubting we will figure out a sheet layout with all the possible configurations but they are interesting to track.

[T206Collector]

Exactly, we have seen your Bender, Lundgren and Cicotte in different player combinations. The Bender is extra neat as so far it the only example of a card being a top and bottom card.



Maybe the reason you're seeing it in both places is because one is a portrait, and the other is a pitching pose (with or without trees).

Ditto Lundgren and KC/CHI variations.

[atx840]

Possibly. However I am basing these off of the T206resource.com print groups & back specifics.

[Ladder7]

Same name,
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/oche16/t206egantwonames.jpg

[toppcat]

It's easy to speculate on rows/columns being a set number of players but don't forget that Obak sheet from H&S two years ago, where a lot of the placement was random. I think there is a decent probability some randomness occurred, or certain sections of each sheet could have room for random, or ad hoc arrangements in the printing of T206.

Having said that, this is a fascinating thread. I wonder if it can be correlated with the threads about back miscuts, large borders and stamped numbers at the edge of sheets. I suspect not unfortunately. Seems like a lot of puzzle pieces are out there but they can't all be linked between all the different types of miscuts.

[BobbyVCP]

Bobby, how do you do such a search on the VCP site? I keep coming up with "no results"

You need to do an ACC search for T206 and will list all the different sets we cover with backs. The GMO is for ghost, miscuts and oddities containing also blank backs and proofs, etc..

[jimonym]

It would be interesting to see how many of the front/back combinations for these "linked" cards sync up and how many do not.

Take, for example, a back that we're pretty confident we have a complete and accurate listing of all possible examples...Sweet Caporal 150 overprint. Taking a quick look at my index (which I think is right, but please correct me if not), I note the following out-of-sync examples from Jantz's listing below:

Delahanty (SC 150 OP confirmed) / Waddell (not)
Delahanty (SC 150 OP confirmed) / Bender (not)
Killian (SC 150 OP confirmed) / Chance (not)

So these cards must have been printed adjacent to one another on one sheet, but not both included (adjacent or otherwise) on another sheet. Along with the how many rows and columns and how were the subjects arranged questions, we also have to ask the how many different sheets/arrangements were used during production question. It's that latter mystery, I suspect, that's the most difficult to solve of all -- and the one that keeps us from getting our arms around so many elements of the T206 set.

[atx840]

The 34 649 OP back cards probably were all on one sheet. Brian's side by side example, the Sheckard and Goode cards are both 649 OPs. I've wanted to see a back scan of this card for years if anyone has it.

I'm wondering if the sheets of the 34 players were selected after primary printing to be overprinted or if ALC chose those players specifically for the 649 sheet.

Reverse "engineering" these layouts is near impossible but sure is fun.

[T206Collector]

Reverse "engineering" these layouts is near impossible but sure is fun.

This exercise is only possible with the free flow of information, including scans, in an online forum such as this. Unimaginable just 10 or 15 years ago.

[steve B]

I still believe the number of players on a sheet was smaller than that. There's a group of 150 series that has only a few backs available and there are only 10-12 that fit that pattern. Even those break down into two groups, one less common than the other. I think at least that group was two sheets of only 6 players. (And that each was reworked at least once)

Steve B

[iggyman]

For those that are keeping score, I was fortunate enough to pluck this one from the T206 double name tree. Too bad it wasn't Magie, but I'm okay with it.

Lovely Day...

[atx840]

Very cool iggy, thanks for sharing.

[Runscott]

Wow. A 'Magie' error on the top would have been amazing....but this is good :)

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Isn't there a good possibility that you could have the same player/pose with a different double name if they came on different backs? Since each back did not print the same players?

Lee

[mrvster]

i beleive there is an example......cant remember the 2 cards tho...maybe jantz or chris knows....:o

a magie on top would be insane:eek:

[MVSNYC]

cool card Brian! is that Wilbur Goode's arm?

we need to catch up, been too long...hope you're well.

[atx840]

Bowerman/Chance & Pickering/Myers are unknown pose/colour. Walsh top player appears to be from Brooklyn. Interesting discovery is Bresnahan & Bender are top & bottom cards.

Thank you to those who have shared their cards/scans, worked on the lists, and especially the folks who contribute/run t206resource.com for their print group/checklist data.

http://i.imgur.com/vNPRf.jpg

[jp1216]

Great job. These are amazing finds. I love seeing these sheets being re-created.. thanks

[Jantz]

T206Collector - I couldn't agree more. So many members have been so helpful in building this list.

Lee - I think there is a strong possibility that we will see a two different name T206 with different backs. I say this because I have already seen T206s of the same player with different backs, yet both backs have crop lines on them. Not long ago a member posted a Arndt Piedmont 350 with a crop line & I own an Arndt Sovereign 350 that also has a crop line. The same can be said for sheet numbers too. Its possible to see a T206 with a sheet number & then see an example of the same T206, yet the back has a crop line on it.

Iggy - Nice card!

MVSNYC - Yes that is Wilbur Goode's arm.

Chris - Thank you for the grouping photo. Its nice to see the cards in that form of layout. I will be sending you a PM shortly. I need info on the Walsh.


Jantz

[Jantz]

Isn't there a good possibility that you could have the same player/pose with a different double name if they came on different backs? Since each back did not print the same players?

Lee

Lee - Just wanted to add a little more info to your question. Cicotte is a key card at the moment since the Abbaticchio(brown)/Cicotte is a Piedmont 350 and the Spade/Cicotte is a Piedmont 150.

Hard to tell with the Lundgren cards since the back information is unknown for the Lundgren/Ball at this time.


Jantz

[atx840]

Added Rossman/McBride, second Rossman combination.

http://i.imgur.com/Uath8.jpg

[Jantz]

Chris

Nice grouping photo! Thanks for posting it. You might want to check the B/S/T though, because you have one more to add to the group. ;)



Jantz

[atx840]

Saw that, just updating and will post. ;)

[Pat R]

...

[atx840]

Nice 649 back.

Updated with Lennox/Clancy (Clancey). Higher resolution as requested Link (http://i.imgur.com/okHDl.jpg)

http://i.imgur.com/nu8oZ.jpg

[Jlighter]

In case anyone cares a two name Billy Campbell is up for auction. Lot 48 Sterling Auctions.

[atx840]

Picked up this Moran/Arellanes. It also has an F.F. Baker stamp.

http://i.imgur.com/SXCs6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9mPGT.jpg

[mrvster]

Congrats Chris!! Great eye, n a great card;)

also might have a w/s/t of his hair on back;)

[Jantz]

Nice card Chris!

Thank you for posting it & keeping us updated.

Hopefully I'll find one or two myself this week.


Jantz

[boneheadandrube]

Nice 649 back.

Updated with Lennox/Clancy (Clancey). Higher resolution as requested Link (http://i.imgur.com/okHDl.jpg)

http://i.imgur.com/nu8oZ.jpg

Thats Great! This is where newer style research on this set pays off...A visual aid! Well done man!
GB

[Gradedcardman]

Jantz,

Here is another McGraw/Chesbro with a PD 350 back.

[Gradedcardman]

Oakes/Easterly

[rdwyer]

I was hoping to get mine back from PSA yesterday, but I have to wait another week. It has 2 names. Abstein/Somebody else. (Dunno who yet) I'll post the name and scans when I get it back.

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Chris,
Here is another Powell/O'Leary....
Hope you are well. Brian

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Image437.jpg
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Image438.jpg
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Image439.jpg

[Howe’s Hunter]

Glad to see you are back on board, Brian.

[atx840]

Very interesting Brian, two miscut Powell/O'Learys. Maybe the whole stack of sheets were miscut, great find.

[mrvster]

adam and brian ....great finds!!!:)

glad u are back brian!!

adam, u have become a true error collector;)

[Runscott]

Anyone look into having such cards slabbed by SGC with a '2 name' designation'?

[t206hound]

Anyone look into having such cards slabbed by SGC with a '2 name' designation'?

I asked Earl at the National and he said that they had have no intention of noting that on the slab.

[Runscott]

I asked Earl at the National and he said that they had have no intention of noting that on the slab.

I was just curious - I have two nice examples and have no intention of having them slabbed.

(If Earl read this thread, he might change his mind - SGC, like everyone else, is really into the whole profit concept.)

[t206hound]

I was just curious - I have two nice examples and have no intention of having them slabbed.

(If Earl read this thread, he might change his mind - SGC, like everyone else, is really into the whole profit concept.)

I brought my four to the National in the hopes of getting the flips noted. I definitely would have paid for it...

[atx840]

Added Moran/Arellanes & Oakes/Easterly

Higher Res - Link (http://i.imgur.com/2boiY.jpg)

http://i.imgur.com/lZzz9.jpg

[peterose4hof]

Hands down, this is one of the most interesting threads I have ever read on net54. Keep up the great work gentlemen!

[Runscott]

Interestingly, we've seen Bender with a different name at top, a different card with Bender at top, and...

I've heard that the combination of the two also exists.

[Jantz]

Interestingly, we've seen Bender with a different name at top, a different card with Bender at top, and...

I've heard that the combination of the two also exists.

Scott

This is why the back information is as important as the front of the card. Its a slow process, but maybe someday the dots will start connecting.



Jantz

[Runscott]

Scott

This is why the back information is as important as the front of the card. Its a slow process, but maybe someday the dots will start connecting.



Jantz

Was my joke so dry that it made some sort of sense I wasn't aware of?

:)

[Gradedcardman]

Just got this back from slabbing for safety. Egan-Warhop PD 350 Back.

[Jantz]

Nice card Adam!

Thanks for posting it.


Jantz

[Gradedcardman]

Jantz, I'm always looking now !! Thanks for bringing these to my attention !!

Adam

[mrvster]

Your a hounddog.....GREAT job:D, i always love your collecting focus, and your keen knowledge on 206.........i thought i was crazy following these around more than ten years ago:o

now i know i'm not alone.......these 2 namers fueled my freaky deakiness;) and continues to:D

[teetwoohsix]

Hands down, this is one of the most interesting threads I have ever read on net54. Keep up the great work gentlemen!

+100

Sincerely, Clayton

[camlov2]

Didn't think we had any but actually found one in the pile of trimmed cards. Lake/Lake (I guess it doesn't really have two names but I think it still works. ;)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii174/camlov2/t206lake-lake.jpg

[camlov2]

Maybe I just need to look harder...

Here are a couple more Cassidy/Cassidy and Nichols/Nichols

and a third ghost image along for the ride.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii174/camlov2/doublet206.jpg

[DixieBaseball]

Guys - Reviving this old thread for a question if anyone can answer it : Why do we not see SLer's with 2 name cards ? Perhaps I have glossed over it, but I didn't see any in this thread. Obviously there are fewer numbers (48) from the set, but was wondering if anyone owns or has seen a SLer with 2 names on it ? If not, why ? Thanks & I will hang up and listen...

[z28jd]

If I may answer the last caller's question. You won't see many SL cards cut like that because of rarity+lack of subjects. They are out there though, just tough to find

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-GRADED-PSA-VG-3-MC-error-SOUTHERN-LEAGUE-McAULEY-OLD-MILL-BASEBALLCARD-nr-/110950097450?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item19d524222a&nma=true&si=MT3pJoP9OxMBup5tbb6FCAVu6Ys%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Abravefan11]

I agree completely with what John posted. I hope a few surface and are eventually shared in this thread.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JMT7fw4YLyU/UMJd83zXWXI/AAAAAAAAHkc/1x0PP893Llw/s512/Lipe.jpg

[mrvster]

great Zimmerman....can u post a back scan??:)

[DixieBaseball]

Thanks John & Tim. I guess when you deduce the number of subjects to 48 and only 3 backs possible, relatively speaking, the cards would be "rare" or scarce to find a 2 name one card scenario... Just odd we don't see more of them... So unofficially the SL list is at 2 with McCauley & Lipe. 46 more to go...

[t206hound]

Thanks John & Tim. I guess when you deduce the number of subjects to 48 and only 3 backs possible, relatively speaking, the cards would be "rare" or scarce to find a 2 name one card scenario... Just odd we don't see more of them... So unofficially the SL list is at 2 with McCauley & Lipe. 46 more to go...

Regarding double name (not two name) SLs I've had at least two... Foley White was one. I can probably dig up scans.

[Jantz]

NashvilleBaseball/Jeremy - I've never seen a two different name SLer, but as shown by other members already, two same name SLers do exist.

McCauley and Lipe have already been mentioned. I can add Revelle to the list. By the way, all three of them have an Old Mill back.

Maybe the White Er!ck mentioned has a OM back too.

Also Jeremy, of all the two different name T206s found so far, none of them have a 460 series back.



Jantz

[Brian Weisner]

Hey Jantz,
I have a Shag and Molesworth.... both with OM backs...

Be well Brian

[t206hound]

Sold in the June 2012 Sterling Auction... someone got a steal as it cost me $100 raw. Just not quite enough name at the top for me.
http://www.sterlingsportsauctions.com/ItemImages/000011/june330_lg.jpeg

[g_vezina_c55]

my first two name card and my last pick up. i dont have it in my hand now, but look like to have another Purtell name on top.

http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/11/52/54/64/purtel10.jpg
http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/11/52/54/64/purtel11.jpg

[t206hound]

I'm guilty of getting sidetracked on this thread as well... but this is about "two name" cards which are T206s with two different player names. The cards shown recently (including the White I posted) are "double name" cards which are T206s with the same name twice.

I'll put up scans of my Rossmans tonight...

[camlov2]

Oops, I thought we were posting all combinations to work towards trying to figure out the layout of the sheet. Sorry about that.

[t206hound]

Here are my Rossman miscuts. This thread can be used to help with sheet layouts, but double name miscuts won't help with that.

Rossman-Rossman is a double name
Rossman-McBride is a two name

[camlov2]

This thread can be used to help with sheet layouts, but double name miscuts won't help with that.


Is it believed that all players appear twice on a sheet (one above the other)? I hadn't heard that before but it wouldn't surprise me.

[atx840]

Here is a good article on a possible sheet layout, it is thought multiple examples were stacked three to four high.

http://www.t206resource.com/Article-T206Resource-Sheet-mystique-34.html

[Runscott]

Here is a good article on a possible sheet layout, it is thought multiple examples were stacked three to four high.

http://www.t206resource.com/Article-T206Resource-Sheet-mystique-34.html

Very nice article. The 34-card, 2 player per column sheet theory would mean that for each column you could have one card with two different names (the 3rd card from the bottom) and four cards with two of the same name (all but the top card in each column and the aforementioned 3rd from the bottom).

If each '2-name' card has the same odds of being miscut to show 2 names (Steve or Tim would have to answer that question), then that's a 4-1 ratio - is that about what we've seen?

[steve B]

Very nice article. The 34-card, 2 player per column sheet theory would mean that for each column you could have one card with two different names (the 3rd card from the bottom) and four cards with two of the same name (all but the top card in each column and the aforementioned 3rd from the bottom).

If each '2-name' card has the same odds of being miscut to show 2 names (Steve or Tim would have to answer that question), then that's a 4-1 ratio - is that about what we've seen?

I'm not sure about the ratio of double name to two name cards.

The likelihood of the same number being cut wrong depends on the order of the cuts. If they started by removing the edges then cut into strips by height or width, the chances are that the same cards would always be miscut since an error gets worse as the cuts progress.
If the first card is off center or oversize by 1/64, the next cut will be off center by 1/32nd since it starts already off by 1/64th and the next cut adds the same error. In reality the errors that begin at one end would be much less.
A more typical cutting sequence has the sheet being cut into blocks that are then cut progressively with the longer sides done last.

But there's plenty of eveidence that T206s weren't cut with a consistent pattern, or sometimes with much accuracy. Diamond cuts are far more likely if you're doing the narrow ends last. On a job as big as T206s the cutting would have been done by more than one guy, some of them more skilled than others.

The number of examples of the same card on each sheet I think is more than 4. It's at least 3.
Sheet layouts that are entirely unbalanced are also possible if not likely. So there might be several rows of say 4 over 4 and then maybe a row of 6-8 of a popular player or star.

Between the two name cards, the plate scratch, the registration layout marks, and a few other things I think it will eventually be possible to get very close to what a sheet might have looked like.

Steve B

[Runscott]

The number of examples of the same card on each sheet I think is more than 4. It's at least 3.

My numbers are 'per column', not sheet.

[steve B]

Unless they had multiple columns of the same player - which is possible of course- It works out the same.

In other words, if Spencer was only in one column, saying there are 3 Spencers in the column and 3 Spencers on the sheet is the same thing.

I think that number is actually at least 4, maybe as much as 6.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Unless they had multiple columns of the same player - which is possible of course- It works out the same.

In other words, if Spencer was only in one column, saying there are 3 Spencers in the column and 3 Spencers on the sheet is the same thing.

I think that number is actually at least 4, maybe as much as 6.

Steve B

Oh, I see what you are saying.

I described the exact position of each card. If you can think of another position within a column that I missed, please describe, but I think my numbers are correct.

[steve B]

Oh, I see what you are saying.

I described the exact position of each card. If you can think of another position within a column that I missed, please describe, but I think my numbers are correct.

Nope, we're talking about the same thing.


I think the number of each card in the column would be more than 3-4.

with 3 you get
edge card- name and wide blank margin
middle card - two of the same name
upper/lower card- two different names

If it was three, I'd think the ones with different names would be much more common, roughly equal to the edge and same name cards. That's definetly not the ratio we see so far.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Nope, we're talking about the same thing.


I think the number of each card in the column would be more than 3-4.

with 3 you get
edge card- name and wide blank margin
middle card - two of the same name
upper/lower card- two different names

If it was three, I'd think the ones with different names would be much more common, roughly equal to the edge and same name cards. That's definetly not the ratio we see so far.

Steve B

Steve, it's an exact thing that can be determined just by looking at Tim's sheet example. Not 3 or 4, not 'more than 3-4'. I don't have the software to draw a graphic for you, but I think I described it exactly in my original post:

Again, per column, 1 physical card with 2 different names, and 4 physical cards with 2 of the same name. Given Tim's layout, it can't be anything else.

Now, if you think Tim's layout is incorrect, then that's a different story.

[atx840]

Steve, it may be an indication that there were 6+ of each player stacked based on the ratio we see of double names vs two names. We may learn as you mentioned that some players had 4 stacked and others 6 or more, maybe multiple columns of the same player on one sheet. Fun stuff :)

If we could confirm the print press or sheet size it would be a good base to start with.

Jantz or Erick, is there a new Rossman or other example I need to add to list?

[Runscott]

Steve, it may be an indication that there were 6+ of each player stacked based on the ratio we see of double names vs two names. We may learn as you mentioned that some players had 4 stacked and others 6 or more, maybe multiple columns of the same player on one sheet. Fun stuff :)

If we could confirm the print press or sheet size it would be a good base to start with.

Jantz or Erick, is there a new Rossman or other example I need to add to list?

Exactly, which is what I was trying to get at with the comments about ratios we are seeing. Chris - thanks for bringing this point up again.

[t206hound]

Jantz or Erick, is there a new Rossman or other example I need to add to list?
Not to my knowledge. I have the McBride... and want the Thomas.

[Jantz]

Chris - My total count to date of two-different name T206s is at 37.

Your grouping below is correct to my knowledge except we need to add Walsh/Lumley and Egan/Warhop to the grouping.

No new Rossman that I'm aware of.


Jantz

[Brian Weisner]

Here's another with two names.... Both from Cleveland....Piedmont 150

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Image843_zps2dd49135.jpg





Be well Brian

[atx840]

Nice card Brian, looks like Stovall, I'll work on it.

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Chris,
Yes it is Stovall.... I will post another after dinner that is much tougher to guess...

Be well Brian

[Gradedcardman]

Jantz,

Is the Walsh/Lumley the only Lumley combo to show up to date ?

[Jantz]

Brian - Nice card! Thanks for posting it. Looking forward to seeing the other card you have to post.

Adam - So far the Walsh/Lumley is the only combination I've seen with Lumley's name on it.


Jantz

[Brian Weisner]

Here's another.... Pied 350 Herzog/.......? I'm 99% sure I know the other player, but would like to see what everyone else thinks...

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Image857_zps4a9210ac.jpg







Be well Brian

[Jantz]

Brian

Is it Ritchey, Boston Nat'l?


Jantz

[Gradedcardman]

I concur with Jantz...

[Brian Weisner]

Winner... Winner... Chicken Dinner....

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0037-1-1.jpg



Be well Brian

[Gradedcardman]

Brian, Love the no red !!

Adam

[t206hound]

Winner... Winner... Chicken Dinner....

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0037-1-1.jpg



Be well Brian

I wish I had a scan of your Ritchey when trying to get my Gilbert no red slabbed by SGC... They had a problem with the "missing" color since it was color on top of color... like in this case there is a base of yellow for the belt with red applied on top. Sweet Card!

[t206hound]

Jantz or Erick, is there a new Rossman or other example I need to add to list?

I was wrong!!!! I simply assumed my Rossman-McBride was the one that had previously been identified, but alas, mine is a different one!

Does anyone know if the other Rossman-McBride is a Piedmont as well. Interesting that the Rossman-Thomas is a Sweet Cap.

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71338&stc=1&d=1344738909http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=81126&stc=1&d=1355602854

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1025034&postcount=5

[lharri3600]

Here's one I just picked up
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm269/lharri3600/T206%20POOR%20MANS%20SET/HARTSEL-DOUBLENAME.jpg

[Runscott]

Here's one I just picked up
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm269/lharri3600/T206%20POOR%20MANS%20SET/HARTSEL-DOUBLENAME.jpg

Larry, I think that card has the same name at top and bottom, not two different ones. But I've been wrong plenty of times before.

[lharri3600]

me too:D

[Pat R]

I found the scans of the Lundren/Ball, maybe it's me but this card doesn't look
legit to me.

[g_vezina_c55]

Two name card command a premium value ? According to you what is the premium for a two name card.. ? Same name on top and bottom

[t206hound]

Two name card command a premium value ? According to you what is the premium for a two name card.. ? Same name on top and bottom
Two (different) names command a premium based on relative scarcity. Only on the order of 3 dozen known. Double (same) names do not command the same premium. I will pay nicely for a double name (or miscut) if the full name is at the top, but it is still no where near the price you would expect for a two name card.

[atx840]

Added Egan/Warhop.

http://i.imgur.com/fzLu1.jpg

[jp1216]

Excellent work Chris. The never ending puzzle.
Can only imagine a Wagner Pittsburg or Plank on top....

[teetwoohsix]

Outstanding work Chris !!

This is really coming together & I'm enjoying the watching the progress-thanks.

Sincerely, Clayton

[mrvster]

:)

[lharri3600]

While in Atlanta I stopped by a small card store and picked up a few T206's.
In the stack was a Bobby Wallace with 2 names. I don't have a scanner here, but will post scan when I get back to sunny Buffalo Monday. Also, it's hard to make out the bottom name, probably Wallace since his name is clearly on top.:D

[lharri3600]

johnny sanford lol NICE

[frankbmd]

of another member, a two namer popped up in my collection, but what is the second name??

[Bocabirdman]

of another member, a two namer popped up in my collection, but what is the second name??

It's Hinchman written in Morse code.:eek:

[Abravefan11]

of another member, a two namer popped up in my collection, but what is the second name??

SCHRECK, Columbus?

[frankbmd]

SCHRECK, Columbus?


I'm thinking

TAYLOR, BUFFALO

is a better fit, if that's possible?

[atx840]

TAYLOR looks good to me, nice find.

http://i.imgur.com/znIVi.jpg

[Jantz]

I agree with you Frank.

I believe its Taylor also.

Nice card & thanks for posting it!


Jantz

[Abravefan11]

Nice Frank. Taylor is from the same print group and Chris's image looks like a match.

[t206hound]

Is this the first AB?

[Jantz]

Is this the first AB?

By my records, its the first AB Er!ck.


Jantz

[atx840]

I was thinking that as well, very nice to see a new brand....someone was slacking at the cutting station.

[wazoo]

This has always been one of my favorite Southern Leaguers. I heard that it unusual, or at least a little bit more rare to find a miscut Southern Leaguer. This is severe in my opinion.

[atx840]

Very nice Waz...you do not see those very often.

[wazoo]

Thanks Chris! I saw it and could not resist it. I later found out that the miscut only adds to it!

[Pat R]

This is not my card so it's the only scan I have, I don't know if it's
clear enough for some of you guy's who are really good at these. I am not sure but it looks like it could be another player other than crandall.

[frankbmd]

This is not my card so it's the only scan I have, I don't know if it's
clear enough for some of you guy's who are really good at these. I am not sure but it looks like it could be another player other than crandall.

Hard to tell for sure, but from what I can see, I think it is Crandall top and bottom.

[Pat R]

Thanks Frank, I know it's hard to tell with that scan but you are
usually spot on with these.

[t206hound]

Thanks Frank, I know it's hard to tell with that scan but you are
usually spot on with these.
I'm with Frank... looks to be the same name.

[deadballfreaK]

Currently on Sterling Auctions Lot 31
http://www.sterlingsportsauctions.com/ItemImages/000015/15656a_med.jpeg

[atx840]

Currently on Sterling Auctions Lot 31
http://www.sterlingsportsauctions.com/ItemImages/000015/15656a_med.jpeg
Nice card, and you are the consigner right?

[deadballfreaK]

;)

[t206hound]

Just picked up a new one at the Philly show: Griffith(portrait)-Chase

Scans available tonight. (Full disclosure... Looking to sell this bad boy)

[atx840]

And it's a beauty!

[AndyG09]

And it's a beauty!

I second that, Chris. A great find, Erick!

Ag

[t206hound]

Here are the scans... I think it's more valuable as the first graded :p

[Craig M]

Nice!

My Hinchman double name arrived yesterday. It's a P150 #25.

Craig

[atx840]

Nice Craig, That's a strong one. Erick?

[wolf441]

Just picked this one up today, Jimmy Jackson and you can barely make out Hoffman, St. Louis, Amer. at the top. don't think I've seen this one identified on the thread yet...

[t206hound]

Very nice Steve... another piece of the puzzle.

[Jantz]

Good eye Steve!

Thanks for posting the Jackson card.


Jantz

[sb1]

Not sure if I posted these before, a few tougher backs for double names as well.

All are same name top and bottom(a couple just barely visible but made out under a loupe).

[joeadcock]

Wanted to add this Willetts card to discussion here. Top and bottom name are same

But you haver that funny other print on it too(under his left arm, eating up his head, etc). Any ideas? Dont know much about the "wet transfer sheet" or "moisture transfer" or ?.

[mart8081]

http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac266/martincp-cards/Sold/New/RedMurrayfront.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/martincp-cards/media/Sold/New/RedMurrayfront.jpg.html)]http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac266/martincp-cards/Sold/New/FrankSmithfront.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/martincp-cards/media/Sold/New/FrankSmithfront.jpg.html)

[tedzan]

Although it's not a different names card, I thought this double (same) names Schulte card is worth posting here.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206SameNameSchulte.jpg



TED Z
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
LOOKING FOR these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set

AMES....CAMNITZ....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (port)....JORDAN (bat)....McGRAW (port-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off)....Wiltse (portrait-cap)

[Jantz]

For anyone keeping track, here is another two different name T206.

McIntyre with Hoffman St. Louis Amer. on the top. Piedmont 350 f#25

This is the second T206 with Hoffman appearing on another player's card.

I may have another to post in a day or two.


Jantz

[atx840]

Nice Jantz. I'll get working on the sheet again.

[Jantz]

One more

Bulter with Raymond N.Y. Nat'l

Piedmont 350 f#25 back


Jantz

[t206hound]

Very nice, Jantz. Good eye!

[frankbmd]

Recently upgraded this card and noticed the top border. I'm not sure that the top name is Chase. Thought that it was worth posting for opinions.
Interestingly the card also shows a double factory mis-strike on the reverse.
Could it be a freak-freak?

Edited to add top-bottom approximation. I guess it is Chase on top. Oh well.

[wolf441]

Wanted to bring this thread back to the top to go along with the large factory # thread. I don't see any southern leaguers among the examples with two different names, which may support Scot's theory that there were 17 rows of the same player vertically (at least for the 34 subjects that can be found with Hindu backs).

[atx840]

It's likely the vertical columns could be comprised of two, three or all one card stacked. This could explain why certain players are found more readily then others with the same back. The exclusive 12 (Ford, McGraw, Crandall etc).

We know 34 is a number that is very consistent throughout the set, especially in the 460 series (it's not as obvious due to sub groups but very much there in all 460 backs).

The yellow brown scraps, only 34 different cards are known, 2-4 examples of each which fits the stacked column theory.

All 34 of these cards are grouped on their own throughout the 460 backs (they are the same grouping* as the BL460 subset) and likely comprise of one sheet layout....only one sheet was saved at this early printing stage.

This sheet would have been used for many different backs in combination with other 34 card sheets. Some a group of 28 plus the super prints, a few cards were switched out later on...making it difficult to see a pattern but its there.

*at some point Ames was swapped with Dougherty in the y/b sheet example.

[edjs]

This is on e-bay right now, for anyone interested:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Moran-ERROR-2-name-with-Arellanes-1909-11-Tobacco-Baseball-Card-/261379609412?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item3cdb705344

I would snatch it up, but alas, I can't afford it!

[Luke]

Griffith portrait with Chase above:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Clark-Griffith-HOF-2-name-ERROR-GAI-2-5-G-VG-1909-11-Tobacco-Baseball-Card-/251416806463?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item3a899c043f

Graham with Clark above:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Bill-Graham-HOF-2-name-ERROR-SGC-50-VG-EX-1909-11-Tobacco-Baseball-Card-/251416809124?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item3a899c0ea4

McGinley with Speaker above:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-McGinley-ERROR-Tris-Speaker-top-1909-11-Tobacco-Baseball-Card-/261379604064?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item3cdb703e60

[marcdelpercio]

Just wanted to add this one to the list. I picked this one up on eBay last week. It is Walsh with M. Brown on top. As the eBay listing noted, it is likely the M. Brown portrait due to the incomplete "N" that often shows up on that card.

[t206hound]

Just wanted to add this one to the list. I picked this one up on eBay last week. It is Walsh with M. Brown on top. As the eBay listing noted, it is likely the M. Brown portrait due to the incomplete "N" that often shows up on that card.

Nice pickup, Marc. If it wasn't for me, you would have picked it up for a song. Really surprised we were the only two bidders...

[marcdelpercio]

Thanks, Erick...I totally agree. Good listing, good seller, albeit kind of an odd ending time on a Saturday afternoon. Being a dual HOF'er and, to my knowledge, a previously unknown combo, I thought that this one would go for quite a bit more.

[T206.org]

Awesome card, Marc!

[Jantz]

Marc

Nice card!

Thank you for posting this information.

That's 2 new examples of two different name T206s found in the last few weeks.

Just goes to show that there are still some treasures out there to be found.

I'm surprised that a thread hasn't been started yet about the T206 scrap that sold on Ebay in a BIN for $16.50 recently.

It was a beauty too.


Jantz

[atx840]

Jantz, Did you figure out who was on the front :D

[T206.org]

I'm surprised that a thread hasn't been started yet about the T206 scrap that sold on Ebay in a BIN for $16.50 recently.

It was a beauty too.

No way! Nice. Do you have a link for the item, Jantz?

[Jantz]

Jantz, Did you figure out who was on the front :D

Good one Chris

I'll admit, I don't have the eye like Er!ck does when it comes to figuring out these ghosts.

So I'll stick to my strengths, finding the two namers. Although that eye hasn't been working lately either. :(

Since I've had a few board members ask about the scrap, I'll start a new thread with some scans.


Jantz

[bn2cardz]

I'm surprised that a thread hasn't been started yet about the T206 scrap that sold on Ebay in a BIN for $16.50 recently.

It was a beauty too.


Jantz

This?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-228-Doc-Marshall-F-C628045-/191314848019?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item2c8b40e913&nma=true&si=j6lA9pre1yPajVWzJ%252Bn8BpHbu7w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Jantz]

This?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-228-Doc-Marshall-F-C628045-/191314848019?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item2c8b40e913&nma=true&si=j6lA9pre1yPajVWzJ%252Bn8BpHbu7w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Yes, that's it Andy.

I started a new thread about it for others to see.


Jantz

[t206hound]

Marc

Nice card!

Thank you for posting this information.

That's 2 new examples of two different name T206s found in the last few weeks.

Jantz

Well, make that three... Chance (Yellow) - Fiene

Piedmont 350 back, so I don't know which Fiene pose that would be; interesting that like the previous "find" this one also has two players from the cross-town Chicago teams

[Luke]

Erick helped me look at this one (thanks Erick!). We're pretty sure it's Schlei up top. Definitely N.Y. NAT'L

[Jantz]

Erick helped me look at this one (thanks Erick!). We're pretty sure it's Schlei up top. Definitely N.Y. NAT'L

Nice cards Er!ck & Luke!

Luke - Can I get a back scan of this card or could you post the back information down to the factory number.

Thanks


Jantz

[Luke]

Wagner back:

[Jantz]

Thank you Luke.

That solves that mystery. A Sweet Caporal 350 f#30 back makes it Schlei (catching) as the top card's pose.

This Wagner makes 50 T206s (by my records) now with different names on the top.


Jantz

[t206hound]

Thank you Luke.

That solves that mystery. A Sweet Caporal 350 f#30 back makes it Schlei (catching) as the top card's pose.

This Wagner makes 50 T206s (by my records) now with different names on the top.


Jantz

Jantz, could you post this list when you get a chance? It would be nice to see it all together again. Thanks!

[atx840]

Jantz, could you post this list when you get a chance? It would be nice to see it all together again. Thanks!

+1 I really need to update the grid.:o

[tedzan]

Here are an assortment of ONE T206--TWO NAMES cards in my collection. Most are same names cards. But, there are a couple of them that may have different names.

Anyhow, I thought you would be interested in this info since most of them appear to be new examples for your records.



...... P150 .............................................. P350 .......................................... SC 460 .......................................... P350
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/T206dblnamesMerkCollBellThie_zpsbb304fba.jpg

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/T206dblenamesHaniBurnStan_zps01951811.jpg
...... P350 .................................................. .............. P350 .................................................. .............. P350




PIEDMONT 150
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206SameNameSchulte.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206WillCicoWilt50x.jpg




SOVEREIGN 150 (1st two cards) and SOVEREIGN 350
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206CicDemDonFie50x.jpg




AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and SWEET CAPORAL 460 cards

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/AB460SmithChiBost50x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/SC460f30ChaseTrophy50x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460SmithChiBostTOPname.jpg





Furthermore, these 12 cards are sufficiently offset so that a name should have appeared on their top border. Yet, there isn't even a hint of this.
Therefore, I think it's fair to conclude that these cards were printed on the top row of their respective sheets (backs are a mixture of PIEDMONT,
SOVEREIGN, and SWEET CAP).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206BCCDDDHKMPRRx25.jpg



TED Z
.

[t206hound]

Here are an assortment of ONE T206--TWO NAMES cards in my collection. Most are same names cards. But, there are a couple of them that may have different names.

Anyhow, I thought you would be interested in this info since most of them appear to be new examples for your records.


Thanks Ted... nice cards. I don't see any two-namers, however. They all appear to be double-namers (same name). Which ones are two-namers?

[t206hound]

Thank you Luke.

That solves that mystery. A Sweet Caporal 350 f#30 back makes it Schlei (catching) as the top card's pose.

This Wagner makes 50 T206s (by my records) now with different names on the top.


Jantz

I was able to trade with Luke for this card... cracked it out and confirmed Wagner-Schlei:

[tedzan]

I find it very interesting, that all of the DIFFERENT-2-NAMES cards that have been reported here are limited to ONLY from
the 150/350 series, or the 350-only series.

Furthermore, the TWO-NAME T206's that have been reported here from the 350/460 series and the 460-only series are
all SAME-NAME cards. Here's an additional 350/460 series SAME-NAME card to add to this list.


OLD MILL
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LeifieldBatTopName50x.jpg




My question is: why haven't we seen any DIFFERENT-2-NAMES cards from the 350/460 series, or the 460-only series ?


TED Z
.

[t206hound]

My question is: why haven't we seen any DIFFERENT-2-NAMES cards from the 350/460 series, or the 460-only series ?

TED Z
.

Great question, Ted. It's not from a lack of looking, because I certainly hunt. Perhaps the sheets in the 460 runs had the same player/pose in each column thereby making it impossible for a two-namer. Or perhaps we just haven't found one yet. If I were to lean in one direction, at this point I might just go with the "not possible" (same card vertically). I will keep looking, however!

[tedzan]

Great question, Ted. It's not from a lack of looking, because I certainly hunt. Perhaps the sheets in the 460 runs had the same player/pose in each column thereby making it impossible for a two-namer. Or perhaps we just haven't found one yet. If I were to lean in one direction, at this point I might just go with the "not possible" (same card vertically). I will keep looking, however!


A total of only 21 cards from the 350/460 series and the 460-only series in this entire thread is an insufficient sample. So, we will keep searching.

However, I consider your "columns" point also possible, as it is consistent with my hypothetical sheet of the Exclusive 12 cards illustrated here.....


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Ex12sheet96cards50x.jpg



TED Z
.

[Jantz]

My question is: why haven't we seen any DIFFERENT-2-NAMES cards from the 350/460 series, or the 460-only series ?


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

Good question.

Might be because of the limited player selection in the 350/460 series and 460-only series that no two different name T206s have been found. Same player-same column.

As you and others have mentioned, possibly smaller sheets and only a few players per sheet.

Selection of players limited in late 1910 to 1911 because they were wrapping up the print run for the new card set that they were replacing the T206s with.

All speculation of course, but it sure makes for a good mystery to solve. ;)

As Er!ck has posted, I'm also looking for that first 350/460 or 460 two different name T206 to appear, but nothing yet.

Nice selection of two same namers with different backs. :)

Here is another mis-cut with a back not seen often. (not my card)


Jantz

[Jantz]

Here is the list. Slight typo on earlier post - 52 total

American Beauty 350 framed

Hinchman, H. - Taylor

Cycle 350

Beck - Unglaub

Piedmont 150

Bender (port.) - Delehanty (Wash.)
Brown, M (port.) - Magee (port.)
Bradley (port.) - Bender (port.)
Killian (pitching) - Chance (red port.)
Lindaman - Bresnahan (port.)
Lundgren (Cubs) - Doolin
Lundgren (Cubs) - Ball (New York)
Powell (horizontal) - O'Leary (port.)
Spade - Cicotte
Hinchman, B. - Stovall (port.)
Manning (batting) - Flick

Piedmont 350

Abbaticchio (brown) - Cicotte
Atz - Hoffman (Providence)
Chase (blue port.) - Zimmerman
Hoblitzell - Stephens
Jennings (port.) - Jordan (port.)
Livingstone - Maloney
McElveen - Dygert
Elberfeld (NY port.) - Parent
Engle - Phillippe
McGraw (no cap port.) - Chesbro
Moran, H. - Arrellanes
Oakes - Easterly
Snodgrass (batting) - Maddox
Rossman - McBride
Turner - Lobert
Egan - Warhop
Herzog (NY) - Ritchey
McGinley - Speaker
Griffith (port.) - Chase (?)
Jackson - Hoffman (St. Louis)
Butler - Raymond
McIntyre (Detroit) - Hoffman (St. Louis)
Walsh - Brown, M (port.)
Chance (yellow port.) - Feine (?)
Delehanty (Wash.) - Waddell (port.)

Sweet Caporal 350-30

Barbeau - Strang
Graham (St. Louis) - Clark (Columbus)
Killian (port.) - Dubuc
McGlynn - Jones (Detroit)
Rossman - Thomas
Wagner, Heinie (left shoulder) - Schlei (catching)

Sweet Caporal 350-25

Lennox - Clancy

Sweet Caporal - factory number unknown

McGraw (front ?) - Hayden
Pickering - Myers (front )
Bowerman - Chance (front ?)

The rest - back information unknown or damaged

Walsh - Lumley Piedmont (back damage - no series number)
Bresnahan (port.) - Doolin
Criger - Ritchey
Keeler (front ?) - McGraw (front ?)


I think I got all this information posted correctly. If anyone spots a discrepancy or can add anything else, please post it up.

Jantz

[t206hound]

This is a really weak example, but it is a two-namer. It is the second instance of Bender-Delehanty. Note that there are several printing attributes that demonstrate on both instances:

[The Nasty Nati]

wow nice sleuthing! I would have never picked up on that Bender.

[Jantz]

You're literally connecting the dots aren't you? ;)

Nice work Er!ck!

[mrvster]

strikes again!;)

[Luke]

.

[Jantz]

Hey Luke

That "." just isn't enough.

How about giving us the scoop on that beauty!

Either way, thank you for posting it.


Jantz

[Luke]

Hey Jantz, it's not my card unfortunately. I just saw it in the completed sales on ebay. Dean's cards thought they were over-pricing it, but it was actually a nice buy for someone.

[Jantz]

I agree Luke.

Sorry you weren't able to get it.

Again, thank you for posting it due to the fact that this Walsh has a different name on the top and a different back than what we've seen in the past.

Interesting card!


Jantz

[t206hound]

I agree Luke.



Sorry you weren't able to get it.



Again, thank you for posting it due to the fact that this Walsh has a different name on the top and a different back than what we've seen in the past.



Interesting card!





Jantz


Exactly. Goes further to demonstrate that across brands and series the sheet layouts were not maintained (also see Rossman).

[Den*nis O*Brien]

I posted this just in case anyone is interested in PB'S.

[bnorth]

Got my first 2 name T206 card in the mail today.

[Harford20]

I was going through some of the cards that I have never had graded and came across this Polar Bear Addie Joss Pitching. I first noted that there was not a name at the bottom and assumed it was trimmed. I measured it, and the length was a solid 2-5/8" or 67 mm (NL or near NL). Upon close inspection I noted this partial name at the top. Despite looking at my other T206s I cannot come up with a match, although I have mainly a HOFer collection. I kept trying to put Joss' own name up there, but just not sure. I tried looking at commons in several galleries, but I just cannot pick out enough specifics to identify the name.

Wanted to get the Hound or one of the other expert sleuths out there to render their opinion.

Thanks Dave

[t206hound]

I was going through some of the cards that I have never had graded and came across this Polar Bear Addie Joss Pitching. I first noted that there was not a name at the bottom and assumed it was trimmed. I measured it, and the length was a solid 2-5/8" or 67 mm (NL or near NL). Upon close inspection I noted this partial name at the top. Despite looking at my other T206s I cannot come up with a match, although I have mainly a HOFer collection. I kept trying to put Joss' own name up there, but just not sure. I tried looking at commons in several galleries, but I just cannot pick out enough specifics to identify the name.

Wanted to get the Hound or one of the other expert sleuths out there to render their opinion.

Thanks Dave

95% certain it is Joss, Cleveland:

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

95% certain it is Joss, Cleveland:
I concur

[Luke]

That's "SCHLEI N. Y. NAT' L" on top

[Jantz]

Nice card Luke!

Thank you for posting it.


Jantz

[Jantz]

First off I would like to thank everyone who has participated in this thread.

From the start of this thread I've always asked for a card's back information and here is a reason why the back information is just as important as the card's front.

In post #210 Luke posted up a newly discovered two different name T206. Heinie Wagner (left shoulder) Sweet Caporal 350 f#30 with Schlei's name at the top. So as we deducted earlier in this thread, Schlei's name on the top would make it the catching pose.

Yesterday Luke posted the Johnson with Schlei's name on the top again, but with a different back. Since the Johnson has a Piedmont 150 back, the Schlei card on top would also be the catching pose again.

So a breakdown would be Schlei (catching pose) above two different player's cards, on two different backs, along with two different series.

Just some interesting points I wanted to point out to everyone else.

Thanks again


Jantz

[Jobu]

Fascinating stuff Jantz.

If I read you right, basically what you are saying is that sheet layout appears to have varied between backs. This would help to explain why this puzzle has been so difficult to piece together.

My Questions:

One
Are there any examples of a player with 3 different names on the top (his own plus two others) that all have the same back? (EX: All three from Piedmont 150-25)

If this exists it would seem to suggest that we may never figure out a true sheet layout because there were too many moving parts even within a print run for a single series of a single ad back in a single factory.

Two
Are there examples of identical two name on top players that are from different ad backs within the same series but from the same factory? (EX: Player A usually has player A above him but less frequently has an identical player B above him for both Piedmont 150-25 and Sweet Cap 150-25)

The existence of this seems plausible to me and would suggest that layout variation occurred between, and not within, factories.

Yet another wrinkle would be changes in layout between series and factory (EX: Pd 150-25 and SC 150-25 share a layout that is different than the shared layout by Pd 350-25 and SC 350-25).

I think that is enough rampant speculation for one post. Particularly because this may all have been covered in old threads (sorry if that is the case!).

[curtis-cards]

I have an O'Leary SC 350-460, 42 overprint with O'Leary, Detroit on top. Name is cut off on bottom as well.

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/curtis-cards/t-206-set/24116/oleary-charley-sc350-460-42-overprint
http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/curtis-cards/t-206-double-names-ghosts/24117/charley-oleary

[t206hound]

Another Piedmont 150... not as nice as a WaJo, but I'll still take it.

[Luke]

Nice card Erick! That WaJo isn't actually mine. It went for $800, which I actually think is a nice buy, but my money/focus was tied up elsewhere and I bowed out around $700. I posted it after the auction ended for posterity.

[t206hound]

Much to my surprise, as I was scanning cards from the lot, I realized that it wasn't Shipke on top of this card... a quick check, and I have another for the collection: Shipke-Griffith (also a Piedmont 150). Crazy!

[Luke]

Hmmm, I was thinking Shipke must be at the top of the sheet. But now it looks like that isn't the case. Here's mine:

[t206hound]

Hmmm, I was thinking Shipke must be at the top of the sheet. But now it looks like that isn't the case. Here's mine:


Your shipke is from the top of the sheet. Either sheets were more complex with their layouts, or the layouts changed.

[mrvster]

En Fuego:eek:

[Jantz]

Your shipke is from the top of the sheet. Either sheets were more complex with their layouts, or the layouts changed.

I agree with Er!ck about the Shipke.

Nice cards Er!ck!

Two in one week. Do you think maybe you could let a few slip by for us other two different-name T206 collectors? :)

For those keeping score, this is the second T206 with Griffith (portrait) appearing on a two-different name T206.

The other was a Griffith (portrait) with Chase's name on the top. Piedmont 350 was the back.

[t206hound]

I agree with Er!ck about the Shipke.



Nice cards Er!ck!



Two in one week. Do you think maybe you could let a few slip by for us other two different-name T206 collectors? :)






I can't help it if they were both in the same lot! :)