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Rich Klein
10-06-2011, 06:48 PM
Presented without comment


Cinci Duo Finally Gets Wagner Card Slabbed

It's been beaten up. Dragged through the mud. Cursed. Reviled. Verbally spanked.

And that's just speaking metaphorically.



The Honus Wagner baseball card Ray Edwards and John Cobb own is still in the same shape it was in when they say it was uncovered at an estate sale years ago, but the community of mainstream authenticators and collectors are convinced it's just another in a long line of fakes.



Nothing has deterred the duo from trying to get someone to say it dates from the same early 20th time period as the real Wagners that are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.



Finally, they found a company to do just that.



ACA Grading, based in St-Jerome, Quebec, met with the men recently and after examining the card, decided it was an "unreleased version" of the hobby's most famous trading card, issued in 1909 and then recalled after objections by Wagner.



A story in the New York Daily News says ACA agreed to let the two owners be present during the evaluation. Cobb and Edwards claim they didn't want it to be encapsulated alone and, thus, steered clear of the hobby's mainstream authenticators.


Here is the story from the New York Daily News


T206 Honus Wagner card finally gets a stamp of approval, but controversy lingers


The two Cincinnati men who have spent many frustrating years trying to prove their T206 Honus Wagner is legitimate have finally gotten their baseball card authenticated.

But the collectors and dealers who have ripped Ray Edwards and John Cobb as hucksters peddling a counterfeit card will probably not apologize anytime soon.

Edwards and Cobb submitted their card to ACA Grading, a little-known authentication service based in Quebec, which labeled the card "authentic."



"It is what we call an unreleased version of the card," said ACA Grading owner Martin Brouillard. "It is a controversial card, and people are scared of it."



Edwards and Cobb have refused to submit their card to any of the three biggest grading services -- Professional Sports Authentication, Beckett and SportsCard Guaranty -- because those companies would not allow them to be present when their cards are evaluated.



The companies say that policy is necessary because they don't want collectors trying to influence the grades their cards receive. Cobb and Edwards say the policy sounds reasonable for cards worth a few dollars, but the companies should make exceptions for a card potentially worth millions of dollars.



Brouillard said he graded the card "authentic," rather than giving it a numeral grade, because he permitted Edwards to be present when he examined the card, and because fibers have been taken from the collectible.



Brouillard based his grade in part on research done by paper expert Walter Rantanen, who examined the card in 2003 at the request of Edwards and Cobb and concluded the paper stock was consistent "with being from 1910." Brouillard also relied in part on printing expert Arnie Schwed, who also examined the card for Edwards and Cobb and said it was definitely not a counterfeit.



Collectors say the card appears to be a fake because it looks dull and discolored. There is no black border around the picture of Wagner, and Wagner's name at the bottom looks different than it does on other T206 cards. Memorabilia industry executives, most notably PSA's Joe Orlando and Bill Mastro, whose now-defunct Mastro Auctions is at the center of an FBI fraud investigation, have called the card a fake.



Brouillard says the card may have been a print test for production, or a first printing that was scrapped.



Brouillard's opinion isn't likely to satisfy the critics of Edwards and Cobb. Without a stamp of approval from one of the mainstream grading services, Edwards and Cobb probably won't sell their card.



But it's not like the mainstream grading services and authenticators are unimpeachable. The T206 Wagner once owned by NHL superstar Wayne Gretzky, purchased in 2007 for $2.7 million by Arizona Diamondbacks managing general partner Ken Kendrick, was given an "8" by PSA even though one of the graders says he knew the card was trimmed when he examined it in 1991. The card grader, Bill Hughes, acknowledged that the Wagner was trimmed during an interview for "The Card," a 2007 book written by two Daily News reporters.

glynparson
10-06-2011, 07:06 PM
Big difference between a trimmed authentic card and that counterfeit piece of crap that Cobb/Edwards have.

buymycards
10-06-2011, 07:14 PM
Seems like it would be real simple to get PSA and SGC to look at it. Wonder why that hasn't happened?

Matthew H
10-06-2011, 07:19 PM
Glad we finally know its real.

calvindog
10-06-2011, 07:20 PM
It's racists like you people that keep these two good men down.

Cardboard Junkie
10-06-2011, 07:39 PM
........here we go!

ullmandds
10-06-2011, 07:40 PM
Ridiculous...that card is a POS! The reason Psa/sgc wont see is is because those idiots won't let it be graded unless they were present!

campyfan39
10-06-2011, 07:52 PM
not saying it is real, but if I owned a t206 wagner NO ONE would get near it without me in the room!

Doug
10-06-2011, 07:59 PM
I wish they would quit calling it the Cincinnati Wagner. If I ever win the lottery and can afford a legit one I'd never be able to sell it based on the possible confusion! :D

AndyG09
10-06-2011, 08:07 PM
Always Clueless Authentic Grading of Quebec! I think they were grading in one of the bathrooms at the National. I wonder what the next move will be with this garbage slab? I imagine Coaches Corner would be the logical location for this trash.

Best,

Andy

lharri3600
10-07-2011, 04:39 AM
how can orlando say the card is a fake when his company slabbed a trimmed wagner an 8. talk about hypocrites! that's why i'm about 90% out of the hobby. then there's the doyle polar bear. ho hum:confused:

barrysloate
10-07-2011, 04:55 AM
Jeff beat me to it...the first thing I thought was better not criticize these two or you'll get accused of being a racist.

And there is no controversy whatsoever surrounding this card. It was fake, it's still fake, and tomorrow it will continue to be fake.

lharri3600
10-07-2011, 05:13 AM
has anyone here touched or seen the card IN PERSON?

JohnP0621
10-07-2011, 05:29 AM
Does anyone have a scan of this card?

Ladder7
10-07-2011, 05:39 AM
Does anyone have a scan of this card?

There's a dozen on eBay on any given week.

WhenItWasAHobby
10-07-2011, 06:35 AM
It's racists like you people that keep these two good men down.

Indeed. Not only have the racists come out of the woodwork on this one, but a deluge of "anti-slabbites" and "honus-phobes" are out in full force as well.

glynparson
10-07-2011, 08:23 AM
You do not need to see this card in person. It is a very common fake wagner front attached to a real T206 back. You do not have to see this card in person to know 100% it is fake. Oh by the way there are people including Brian Wentz that have seen this card in person and they are as convinced of its fakeness as i am. if you can not tell why this card is fake you need to be educated on t206 before you make any purchase of one.

Also I DONT GET HOW BECAUSE YOU SLABBED AN ALTERED CARD YOU CANT TELL A FAKE ONE? tHEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. a LOT MORE PEOPLE CAN TELL AUTHENTICITY THEN CAN TELL ALTERATIONS. Sorry for the caps lock i was not shouting just didn't notice it was on

Abravefan11
10-07-2011, 09:09 AM
Does anyone have a scan of this card?

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Z25-STOQ8SU/To8V3s0Ev1I/AAAAAAAAFdI/AA7fVdaOp9A/s558/WagnerFake.jpg

Runscott
10-07-2011, 09:34 AM
Seems like it would be real simple to get PSA and SGC to look at it. Wonder why that hasn't happened?

That's simple. Remember, they were 'afraid' that if the card were out of their sight for even a second during grading/slabbing, that someone at PSA or SGC would quickly switch it with a fake. :eek:

Didn't we have a board member years ago say that they were the ones who actually sold the reprint card to these clowns at a show, after they asked questions that basically revealed their intentions?

This would be entertaining if not for the fact that at some point someone decent will get screwed over this.

Runscott
10-07-2011, 09:43 AM
not saying it is real, but if I owned a t206 wagner NO ONE would get near it without me in the room!

I know we've been over this a million times, but any t206 collector (or litho collector in general) can tell a real from a fake in seconds. Loop the front, look at the dot pattern, job done. It literally takes seconds.

But these guys know it's a fake because they 'created' it. If it were real, they would have sent it to PSA and reaped their just rewards. Also said before, they have to get it 'legitimately' slabbed to protect themselves from lawsuits when they get their 'unjust' reward. They have to then find just the right stooge to buy this thing - someone who wants to believe it is real so badly that they will tout its authenticity as much as these two clowns have.

barrysloate
10-07-2011, 09:46 AM
Who are these hosers at ACA Grading? Has anyone ever seen a graded vintage card in one of their holders?

Section103
10-07-2011, 10:14 AM
It's pretty simple - the market will determine if its real or fake. Its been "authenticated", they're free to sell it (as they always have been), and we'll see what the top dollar brings. Honestly, I'd be happy to own it for...I dunno maybe $25.

glynparson
10-07-2011, 10:51 AM
I do not care what the "market": determines the CARD is 100% A FAKE FRONT

Leon
10-07-2011, 11:18 AM
I do not care what the "market": determines the CARD is 100% A FAKE FRONT

Yeah, but that back could be worth some big bucks!!

terjung
10-07-2011, 12:18 PM
OK, I'm far from a T206 expert and not that anyone here believes for a second that it is real, but for crying out loud... that card's not even close! For starters, the font is wrong. The letters after the P in Pittsburgh are all the wrong size from a traditional T206. I can only imagine that a more detailed look with a loop could point out a whole litany of other reproduction characteristics... dot pattern, edge inspection, etc. I'd bet that thing would fluoresce under black light too. Even before all that, the presumably artificial aging looks suspicious. The only way I'd spend $25 on that thing is just as cocktail fodder...or to make the story just go away. Aren't their 15 minutes up yet?

vintagecpa
10-07-2011, 12:32 PM
Didn't we have a board member years ago say that they were the ones who actually sold the reprint card to these clowns at a show, after they asked questions that basically revealed their intentions?



I would love to read that thread if it still exists. If anyone is able to find it, please post the link. Thanks.

Cat
10-07-2011, 12:36 PM
Leon: Maybe you can have them place it in the next B-L Auction. Of course you probably have to allow them to have a two-week sleep over at your place so they can be assured you don't insert a "fake" card while it is in your possession. It should be fun. :)

You can receive some valuable knowledge from two of the better known collectors in the industry.

E93
10-07-2011, 12:47 PM
My memory could be failing me, but I thought a board member posted that that card looked like a reprint stolen out of his office and that he coincidentally lived just a few miles from the current owners in Cincinnati.
JimB

barrysloate
10-07-2011, 12:48 PM
If ACA Grading should happen to read this board, I have a question for them:

I think they made a very bold assertion by calling the Edwards-Cobb specimen an unreleased version of the T206 Honus Wagner. This being the case, and since all grading companies need to stand behind such statements, I would like to know what exhaustive research the company made to reach this conclusion? What libraries did you folks visit, what primary and secondary sources did you use, what internet sites did you find, and did you study in detail the records of the ATC? I imagine to reach such a conclusion, no amount of time was spared in doing your research.

I ask you this because I am thinking of making the owners a very significant offer for their card. But in order to do so with the appropriate level of confidence, I really do need to see documentation. I realize we may be talking about a couple of hundred pages that will need to be photocopied, so please know that I will reimburse you for all your costs.

So if you are reading this, I thank you in advance for all your time and trouble. I realize you must all be exhausted from the weeks of research you put in to come with your conclusion, but I think we can all agree it was well worth it.

Look forward to receiving a packet of documents from your company. Thanks again.

byrone
10-07-2011, 02:41 PM
Found this interesting, from the Hockey side of things

...notice of fake Bobby Orr cards...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/381767/thread/1310846188/last-1311465321/Beware+Fake+BAZOOKA+Bobby+Orr+Card

and then

...current Ebay listing for a (graded) fake Bobby Orr card

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110754473858&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en


Conclusion: Get a fake card into a slab is Priority #1

novakjr
10-07-2011, 03:56 PM
Honest question here. Clearly this card is not authentic and will never be valued anywhere near the value of a legit Wagner, But would this particular card hold any value based on it's background and story? Like I said, it's not a legit Wagner, but just for fun, wouldn't it be interesting to say that you own "The Infamous Cincinnati Wagner"? For $20-50, I'd probably bite just to say that.. I'm wondering what some of you other members would pay, just to be the one to put this mess to rest?

calvindog
10-07-2011, 04:14 PM
If ACA Grading should happen to read this board, I have a question for them:



Barry, ACA Grading probably is run out of someone's mother's basement!

barrysloate
10-07-2011, 06:38 PM
Well Jeff, I want to know where they come off encapsulating a card that they know is bad; how did they come to fabricate this silly story about it being a pre-release version of a real Wagner; and has anyone on this board actually seen a card graded by ACA?

I'm really tired of seeing people with no skills and no credentials whatsoever passing themselves off as experts. It's plagued the autograph side of the hobby, and now it's becoming part of vintage baseball cards too.

Runscott
10-07-2011, 07:02 PM
My guess is that the Cincinnati guys got someone to agree to grade it, in exchange for a percentage of the final selling price. It could be one of their friends or some unscrupulous person who approached them first. In any event, I'm sure it's not a legitimate grading company.

Why would this surprise anyone? We've seen grading company abominations now for many years. It isn't going to stop.

Rob L
10-07-2011, 08:15 PM
Check out their website. Autograph experts too!! Jeez!!

http://www.acagrading.com/en/index.htm

E93
10-08-2011, 09:04 AM
Here is a question for the lawyers here. Does the grading company have any responsibility for authenticating an obviously fake card? Can they get sued if someone bought the card on their assurance that it was authentic? I suppose it depends on the way the grading company presents what they are doing. I am curious what their liability is. My guess is not much, that they are just offering opinions and that their only real value is the perceived respect they garner in the hobby.
JimB

barrysloate
10-08-2011, 10:35 AM
Jim- what I find interesting here is ACA did much more than merely render a verdict of genuine or not genuine. They took the bold step of calling it an unreleased proof. And that was the point of my sarcastic post #29: exactly what research went into this rather unique designation? There is nothing that any advanced collector on this board sees that would support their claim, so I would assume anyone making it would be prepared to defend such a determination. This of course doesn't answer your question about their liability, just my own thoughts on the matter.

Scott T
10-08-2011, 10:40 AM
Who are these hosers at ACA Grading? Has anyone ever seen a graded vintage card in one of their holders?

http://tytempletonart.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/bob_and_doug_mackenzie.jpg

BOB: "Good day, eh! We graded this card and it's a beauty, eh."

DOUG: "We got paid in Elsinore beers!"

barrysloate
10-08-2011, 11:07 AM
Scott- did you see the one where the Mackenzie brothers put a baby mouse in an empty beer bottle, let it grow to maturity, then filled the bottle with beer and recapped it, returned it to the company for a refund, and then got a whole case of beer back as part of the company's apology? Pretty funny.

hunterdutchess
10-08-2011, 11:42 AM
How long before the card gets listed on ebay? I can't wait to see the description. Here is a bogus graded Wagner :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner-T206-1909-TOBACCO-CARD-REPLICA-/270823401462?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item3f0e5527f6#ht_789wt_1185

$200?

Tsaiko
10-08-2011, 12:01 PM
How long before the card gets listed on ebay? I can't wait to see the description. Here is a bogus graded Wagner :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner-T206-1909-TOBACCO-CARD-REPLICA-/270823401462?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item3f0e5527f6#ht_789wt_1185

$200?

Good lord.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur0g-R7ZODY

E93
10-08-2011, 04:42 PM
How long before the card gets listed on ebay? I can't wait to see the description. Here is a bogus graded Wagner :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner-T206-1909-TOBACCO-CARD-REPLICA-/270823401462?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item3f0e5527f6#ht_789wt_1185

$200?

Looks like a color copy of a real Wagner pasted on a real piedmont back.
JimB

cobblove
10-08-2011, 07:55 PM
"
How long before the card gets listed on ebay? I can't wait to see the description. Here is a bogus graded Wagner :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...#ht_789wt_1185

$200?""


LOL that one looks more convincing than the straight up fake cincy card. Both are fake. But damn that cincy one is nasty fake.

Vintagedegu
10-08-2011, 10:08 PM
-

ls7plus
10-08-2011, 11:59 PM
While I'm skeptical also, I'd still like to compare the lithogrpahic dot pattern under my 16x loupe, or better yet, a microscope with the proper power, to a known genuine card, or series of such cards. Simply stated, that should tell if the card is counterfeit or not. If it is not counterfeit, but there remain significant differences with regard to other characteristics of the card, then the card is something other than a regular T206, and the question becomes what it is. The grading service which has in fact encasulated it has assigned it a category, which may or may not be correct. Barry is quite correct--we need to know how they arrived at that conclusion, assuming the card passed the former test. One thing does concern me, however.

I've taken hundreds of depostions in my career as a lawyer, many of them involving scammers of one kind or another, and these two are simply not behaving in a way that is consistent with the behavior these types of persons do exhibit. Perhaps if I saw the card in person and could examine it, I would have a somewhat different opinion, but the animosity towards these two seems to have grown out of hand.

Best regards, regardless of our different sentiments here,

Larry

Ladder7
10-09-2011, 05:11 AM
Larry, it's been examined by an auction house owner, forensic expert and now a grading company (with a combined 39yrs experience) from a sophisticated province in Canada.

Theyve jumped through hoops to protect the prospective buyer. What more can we expect from these good fellows?

benjulmag
10-09-2011, 09:07 AM
Larry,

I think you'd be wasting your time. And I do think the actions of these two guys are consistent with professional scammers. If they were really sincere, they would take a sample of the FRONT of the card and test the age. Its been said many times that EVEN IF the verso dates to 1909, that means NOTHING in this case given the documented discrepancies with the front. It would be easy for a professional conservator to put a reprint front on a slivered-off Piedmont back.

Runscott
10-09-2011, 12:31 PM
On The Card and the race card front...

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/yo-yo-who-told-you-to-step-on-my-honus-wagners

If you don't know your subject, you probably shouldn't be talking. Big problem with people these days.

Yeah, but he got to play the race card. fun, fun, fun.

atx840
10-09-2011, 12:59 PM
Slabbed

http://i.imgur.com/HoOnN.png

Vintagedegu
10-09-2011, 01:23 PM
-

z28jd
10-09-2011, 04:56 PM
I have this same exact unreleased card and in much better condition so I can't wait to get it slabbed and sell it for about 5 times what they get for their ratty looking card. Can someone post the pics for me, size was too big and when I adjusted it to fit the picture was about the size of a dime? I included in the pictures a released 1909 penny so people can tell the difference between stuff that comes out in 1909 and stuff that doesn't. When I got this card for free after buying a t206 Beckley at a card show, I did not realize I was in the presence of the world's most generous man.

Send me a PM with your email address if you can work gypsy magic on my pictures so theyre able to post and I'll email them to you

ls7plus
10-09-2011, 07:12 PM
Hi, Corey. You may well be right, but these two know very well by now that this is a fairly close-knit hobby, involving a lot of people with a ton of knowledge, and excellent lines of communication. In my three and a half decades of practice, I would find it very unusual that someone would continue to attempt to pull off a scam under such circumstances. I'm just saying that it appears that THEY actually believe in the integrity of their card, and I'm curious enough that I'd like to compare it's front to other T206's under adequate magnification. I would just prefer more actual information with regard to the card itself. Having taken a loupe to many, many shows for years prior to third party grading entering the picture as a major player, and having detected far too many trimmed cards as well as a number of counterfeits, I'm certainly not naive about what's out there. But I am curious.

Best always,

Larry

E93
10-09-2011, 07:31 PM
If they thought it was legitimate, they would give it to PSA or SGC for a two hour service, get it slabbed and make hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have a very hard time believing they think it is legit. I believe they are hoping to find somebody with more money than brains. So far they haven't found one.
JimB

buymycards
10-09-2011, 07:43 PM
There is no doubt that this is fake, but there is a small possibility that these people really believe they have a legit card. It happens all of the time with my customers. Someone comes in and wants to mail a laptop to Nigeria. My clerks know that they need to have the customer talk to me, so the customer comes in my office and I tell them about the craigslist scams and I assure them that they are being scammed, but they just won't believe me. So, we mail off the laptop and a couple of days later the customer comes in and wants to know if we can get the laptop back, which of course, we can't. We see the same scams with credit card and money order fraud and work at home scams. The customers WANTS to believe they are on to something, so they don't listen to advice. Maybe these guys are in the same category.

Rick

CW
10-09-2011, 07:52 PM
"It is what we call an unreleased version of the card," said ACA Grading owner Martin Brouillard. "It is a controversial card, and people are scared of it."

Yes, so scared, in fact, that ol' Honus is making the rounds this year at your local haunted house.... :eek: :eek: :eek:

glynparson
10-09-2011, 08:42 PM
but anyone that needs magnification to judge that cards legitimacy needs a new hobby.

novakjr
10-09-2011, 09:39 PM
Gotta agree with Glyn. From the naked eye, the card not only appears fake, but is OBVIOUSLY fake. "Unreleased Version"? HA. I find it funny that the first of the "unreleased versions" to be discovered, just so happens to be Wagner. Even if it really is an "unreleased version"(cough), it's still worthless if they can't get anyone to believe them... This card is not and never will be an "unreleased version", a "t206 Wagner", or anything else that you can think of. Hell, it's not even a standard reprint, or just another scam(they've taken it way past that point).. It is "the Cobb/Edwards Wagner", and that's all this card will EVER be... And to top it off these two douchebags had the audacity to play the race card against the hobby, it's experts, and whoever else will listen in regards to this card. These two know it's fake(and probably have all along), and since they couldn't get anyone to side with them, they've been hoping to guilt someone into buying their BS. They can shove it up their @$$es...Which should be even more enjoyable now that it's been slabbed..

Sorry, if I come off a little angry, but I take this hobby seriously(well, about as seriously as it could be taken), and I've had about enough of hearing about these two clowns.

barrysloate
10-10-2011, 04:52 AM
I suspect the next step is this card will be consigned to one of those marginal country auctions, one with a "no returns, all sales are final" policies. And you just know someone will buy it, figuring if it is real he will get it cheap and make a killing on it. And then you will never hear from these two guys again. That will be the end of their days in the public eye.

benjulmag
10-10-2011, 05:59 AM
I suspect the next step is this card will be consigned to one of those marginal country auctions, one with a "no returns, all sales are final" policies. And you just know someone will buy it, figuring if it is real he will get it cheap and make a killing on it. And then you will never hear from these two guys again. That will be the end of their days in the public eye.


Sounds like the business model of Coaches Corner -- get a BS authentication and then sell the item for a small percentage of what it would be worth if it was authentic to an unsuspecting wet-behind-the-ears novice who thinks he made a killing.

Leon
10-10-2011, 08:58 AM
A few pics sent by board member John D....the original fake? :)

rjackson44
10-10-2011, 09:02 AM
its a fake omg

z28jd
10-10-2011, 04:22 PM
A few pics sent by board member John D....the original fake? :)

I'm taking offers on this card btw, you can't have the 1909 penny though, that's actually worth something

Runscott
10-10-2011, 05:03 PM
I'm taking offers on this card btw, you can't have the 1909 penny though, that's actually worth something

John!!! I was just thinking about you today, as I posted that 't206 errors' article to my website - I was wondering why I gave you a by-line. :D

z28jd
10-10-2011, 06:06 PM
John!!! I was just thinking about you today, as I posted that 't206 errors' article to my website - I was wondering why I gave you a by-line. :D

Thanks Scott, I seem to think I still know something about t206 errors but for some reason when I finished the set about 7 years ago I stopped collecting them so I've probably forgot a lot of what I used to know. Im hoping that one of the things I forgot was that my Wagner is one of the unreleased ones....fingers crossed

CW
10-10-2011, 10:13 PM
At this point, whether the card sells or not, the sellers are ultimately screwed.

If the card never sells, which is likely, they are met with an unrealized dream, plus much wasted time, money and effort -- all for nothing but a little time in the spotlight and plenty of embarassment.

If the card does sell, the new owner will most likely attempt to have it authenticated and will receive the obvious result. They'll then, in turn, sue the original sellers. This card has gotten enough publicity, as have the current owners, that they'll have no place to hide. The card will not hold up in a court of law and they'll be guilty of fraud.

So, either way, this does not end well for Mr. Cobb and Mr. Edwards.

I'm not saying we should sit idly by, and watch someone get scammed, but those are the two likely outcomes.

ls7plus
10-15-2011, 05:41 PM
I'm sorry but anyone that needs magnification to judge that cards legitimacy needs a new hobby.

Right! That's why counterfeit Rose and Mattingly cards made such a splash in the hobby, as well as 1984 Fleer Update Goodens and Pucketts back in the day, and countless others. That's why certain dealers were able to make a killing selling vintage cards that appeared NMT-MT or better, but had actually been run through a paper mill, thereby enlarged, and subsequently trimmed back down to what was technically the correct size, before the advent of TPG. These cards sold and sold well, because they looked right to a large number of people that believed they knew what was legit and what was not. That is, they looked right unless you knew where to look under 16X power or so! As a matter of ACTUAL FACT, the more objective information one has, the better off one is. To think otherwise reflects only naivete, prejudice or arrogance. In three and a half decades of analyzing the facts in the course of litigation law practice, I've learned quite well the value of having all of the facts available that might even conceivabley affect the conclusions to be drawn. He who chooses to proceed without them is often setting himself up for quite a nasty fall!

I'm sorry to be blunt and not sugar-coat it, but sometimes it's necessary to tell it like it is.

Here's hoping we all prefer to keep our minds open and stay objective,

Larry

z28jd
10-15-2011, 06:05 PM
Larry, did you happen to notice the scans Leon posted for me? That is the same reprint these two guys have, it was made back in the 70's supposedly, as I was told by the dealer who gave it to me. I've had mine since 1991 and it was old looking then. I have 656 real t206's and my Wagner, which looks exactly like their Wagner, does not look like any of those real t206's. There is no doubt it is a fake card, the back looks real but the front has so many problems it's literally unreal.

Trust me when I say this, I dont like work that much, if I had a real Wagner I wouldn't have it anymore and I certainly wouldn't have a job. Well, I would still be a writer but I wouldn't be working at a restaurant too. These guys do not have anything except the same reprint I've had for 20 years.

If someone now wants to believe because an unknown grading company gave their word it's real, let me know, I'll sell mine for one dollar less than whatever 6 figure price you'd pay for the other one. Reminded me just now that back in the day an unknown grading company graded a Mathewson reprint as real and then came on the board trying to defend their position...we never heard from them again. I suspect the same thing will happen with this company

edit: I have a good memory from 9 years ago, proof that I've been around here waaay too long http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=63975&highlight=mathewson+grade+tech

Runscott
10-15-2011, 06:32 PM
...
edit: I have a good memory from 9 years ago, proof that I've been around here waaay too long http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=63975&highlight=mathewson+grade+tech

Thanks for dredging that one up! The entire gang's there - even Julie jumped in for a cameo at the end.

If I remember correctly, wasn't that what Dan Mathewson got all upset about and disappeared over?

Fred
10-16-2011, 07:44 AM
Leon,

I have just one question. Why isn't ACA Grading one of the links available for grading companies in the Vintage Links section? :mad: You've got PSA listed :p Hey all you PSA lovers, take it easy....

Could you imagine if some numnut one actually bought this card at auction.

glynparson
10-16-2011, 11:18 PM
I dont need a loupe for any of those counterfeits either, but I guess that's because I know what I am doing. If you need a loupe to tell that card is fake you know nothing about T206's. if you have been around snce the 1980's and need a loupe to tell that is fake you have not learned very much about your hobby.

irishdenny
10-17-2011, 09:18 AM
Is it just me... or... "Mr Bud Abbott & Costello Reincarnated!?!?"

Ahhh... Never mind...

Exhibitman
10-17-2011, 11:27 AM
Is it just me... or... "Mr Bud Abbott & Costello Reincarnated!?!?"

Ahhh... Never mind...

I was thinking more like Ren and Stimpy...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/76/The_Ren_and_Stimpy_Show_Title_Card.jpg/250px-The_Ren_and_Stimpy_Show_Title_Card.jpg

iggyman
10-17-2011, 12:00 PM
Nice try, but you are forgetting something. If you look closely at the earlobes......

47671

Thus, my vote is in:

47670

They are practically twins triplets!

47672

Lovely Day...

ls7plus
10-21-2011, 03:51 AM
I dont need a loupe for any of those counterfeits either, but I guess that's because I know what I am doing. If you need a loupe to tell that card is fake you know nothing about T206's. if you have been around snce the 1980's and need a loupe to tell that is fake you have not learned very much about your hobby.

Much more closer to the truth is that you would be completely lost without one, as the counterfeit details of many of those cards are not at all clear to the naked eye. With regard to the trimmed cards, many of the most famous dealers prior to TPG in the early '90's carred a loupe with them to shows where they bought raw material in order to check the edges in just the manner I specified, because the cards would indeed measure correctly, and the trimming could not be detected with the human eye. Instead, magnification was required to properly examine the edges and to compare their much sharper appearance against those known to have been factory cuts.

It would clearly seem that you have voluntarily chosen to fall within the category of those befallen by prejudice and/or arrogance, prefering to decide the issue presented on the basis of who these people who own the card are and how different they are from you, when what is really important are the actual facts pertaining to the card itself. You can attempt to rebutt me all you like, but you can't kid yourself about what you really see deep inside you, and you won't change the actual facts about your behavior until you yourself change! Your hostility is only indicative of the truth of the above, which, when you've been brought face to face with it, brings about resentment on your part, and the nastiness comes through. I feel sorrow for your pent-up hatred, which causes you to behave in a manner which you most likely would not prefer, and tends quite strongly to make a complete fool out of you.

Best wishes on a successful metamorphis, becoming a person more willing to objectively consider various sources of actually relevant information, rather than jump to a conclusion based on all the wrong reasons. Remember, my initial post in this thread merely indicated I would like to have more objective information conderning the card itself, rather than people's reactions to the identity of the would-be seller. I did not take any position with regard to the card's validity at all, and most assuredly did not start the nasty comments, but as you have readily seen, am more than capable of defending my position against them.

Larry

z28jd
10-21-2011, 06:52 AM
Larry, you seem to be very lost about this card so let me give you history on it. It appeared on ebay many times before anyone knew anything about the sellers so saying someone based their opinion on the card solely based on their opinion of the sellers is extremely way off base, you couldn't be more wrong. Also in response to Glyn you start mentioning the reasons you need a loupe for t206s that have nothing to do with THIS card which is what he was referring. I don't know if you can't see the cards posted in this thread but if you can AND you're still trying to defend your position against it, no one is taking your serious anymore. This card is well known, its been around way too long to still try to have meaningful discussions on the possibility they might be right/wrong

Hundreds of legit people have said this card is fake based on legit knowledge while two people now with no apparent knowledge of t206 cards have said it could be from that era based on paper samples of the back of the card which means they would also say the same thing about a child's drawing of Honus Wagner glued to the front of a t206 card peeled in half.

If I posted my card which is the same exact reprint they have and kept pushing it as real I would instantly have zero credibility and I've done well over 200 deals with various board members. Wouldnt matter what I did in the past or how many deals I've had, I'd be done

steve B
10-21-2011, 07:22 AM
So do you actually believe there's any chance it's real?

Having seen the black and white pic of it slabbed I still don't buy it.

There's no or nearly no border to the image area, which is typical of a reprint.
Even the proof has a clear border.

The name and team are darker than the "Pittsburg" on the uniform. On all the pics I have of known real Wagners that lettering is either the same or lighter.

There's a serious loss of detail above TSB on the uniform. A lack of detail seen on no other Wagner. Loss of detail is typical of a rescreened printing (Read reprint)

The aging is very atypical of actual aging. The aging IS typical of a modern reprint dipped in tea or something similar. That highlights cracks in the glosscoat, which is what we see on the card in question.

It appears to have a slight diamond cut, not unusual for a T206 ....But on the sides which is unusual if not unique for a T206

So if we're to believe it's real then we also have to believe that a very early borderless proof printed from a stone etched entirely differently than any other T206 including unreleased players was somehow finished with the production back as NO other proofs were, and glosscoated as only a very few T206s were(Some of the Cobb backs are the only glosscoated ones I've heard of)
And then for some reason cut by machine like a production card, but differently than very nearly all of the production cards.

And that that unique unreleased T206 just happened to be a Wagner.

All that is objective.
If my mother found that card I'd think it was a reprint.
If it wasn't Wagner I'd think it was a reprint.

Yes, the loupe can be handy. I use a 30X one myself, as well as high resolution scans if I want to have a good close look at something. And I use it more as my eyes get old. 20 years ago I could see the dot patterns on fakes without the loupe. Not so much today:(

Yeah, I'd like to see a 1200DPI scan. Or have the card in hand. If only to remove the .000009% chance it might be real.

Steve B

Much more closer to the truth is that you would be completely lost without one, as the counterfeit details of many of those cards are not at all clear to the naked eye. With regard to the trimmed cards, many of the most famous dealers prior to TPG in the early '90's carred a loupe with them to shows where they bought raw material in order to check the edges in just the manner I specified, because the cards would indeed measure correctly, and the trimming could not be detected with the human eye. Instead, magnification was required to properly examine the edges and to compare their much sharper appearance against those known to have been factory cuts.

It would clearly seem that you have voluntarily chosen to fall within the category of those befallen by prejudice and/or arrogance, prefering to decide the issue presented on the basis of who these people who own the card are and how different they are from you, when what is really important are the actual facts pertaining to the card itself. You can attempt to rebutt me all you like, but you can't kid yourself about what you really see deep inside you, and you won't change the actual facts about your behavior until you yourself change! Your hostility is only indicative of the truth of the above, which, when you've been brought face to face with it, brings about resentment on your part, and the nastiness comes through. I feel sorrow for your pent-up hatred, which causes you to behave in a manner which you most likely would not prefer, and tends quite strongly to make a complete fool out of you.

Best wishes on a successful metamorphis, becoming a person more willing to objectively consider various sources of actually relevant information, rather than jump to a conclusion based on all the wrong reasons. Remember, my initial post in this thread merely indicated I would like to have more objective information conderning the card itself, rather than people's reactions to the identity of the would-be seller. I did not take any position with regard to the card's validity at all, and most assuredly did not start the nasty comments, but as you have readily seen, am more than capable of defending my position against them.

Larry

2dueces
10-21-2011, 08:26 AM
WOW. This card is like a bad cold, it never seems to go away. No one cares what ASA says about this card. The hobby has known it is a fake from the first time it surfaced and it will be a fake until it finally disappears in the night. The strands of paper taken from the back may be from a real T206 but the front is a $.10 fake seen from 1 ft or 100 ft away. I don't care if Bill Gates or Larry the Cable guy owns it. It's still fake and to have pushed this to the point of getting it slabbed as a proof is a slap in the face to every know T206 in the hobby. They got more than their 15 minutes, now I'm hoping they will just fade away. The discussion of it here of having to see it close up or looped is even more perplexing.

Runscott
10-21-2011, 08:38 AM
So do you actually believe there's any chance it's real?

Having seen the black and white pic of it slabbed I still don't buy it.

There's no or nearly no border to the image area, which is typical of a reprint.
Even the proof has a clear border.

The name and team are darker than the "Pittsburg" on the uniform. On all the pics I have of known real Wagners that lettering is either the same or lighter.

There's a serious loss of detail above TSB on the uniform. A lack of detail seen on no other Wagner. Loss of detail is typical of a rescreened printing (Read reprint)

The aging is very atypical of actual aging. The aging IS typical of a modern reprint dipped in tea or something similar. That highlights cracks in the glosscoat, which is what we see on the card in question.

It appears to have a slight diamond cut, not unusual for a T206 ....But on the sides which is unusual if not unique for a T206


Steve, you might be new to this discussion, but....

The legitimacy of this card is no longer questioned, and hasn't been for many, many years, by anyone who has any understanding of lithography and/or scammer behavior (either will do). It was a laughable fake then, and it still is. I was surprised when it first came out and anyone even bothered saying 'why' it's a fake - it's a fake because it's an obvious fake, even from photographs. All the things they did to it to try to make it look real are irrelevant. If they really wanted to pass it off as real, they could have picked a better reprint to start with.

Okay, so throw that card away, next thought: there are just not very many t206 Wagners existing. If we were to ever see a 'previously unreleased version' of ANY t206, do you really think it would be drastically different from all other t206's in every respect other than size, and do you really think it would be of a t206 as rare as the Wagner? I doubt the existence of any such card in a Wagner version, so much, that you would have a hard time showing me one with a blue or red background, with his name spelled wrong, with ANYTHING on it that's different fro a 'normal' Wagner, and convincing me that it was legit, MUCH less if you wouldn't even let a respectable grading company look at it.

barrysloate
10-21-2011, 09:06 AM
I agree it is pointless to continue discussing whether or not the card is real. That is beyond discussion. The only reason this subject was resurrected was that the two owners found a grading service willing to slab it. That's the gist of it; the card's authenticity is not the issue here.

Fred
10-21-2011, 09:24 AM
STOP - Here's something that wasn't considered:

What if the BACK of that card came from a "REAL/Authentic" T206 Honus Wagner card? Let's say someone had the real deal and the front was somehow destroyed. The person then takes the "REAL" back from a REAL T-206 Honus Wagner card and pastes a fake Wagner front to it. Wouldn't that make it half real? :p

Has this horse been beaten to death yet?

steve B
10-21-2011, 09:40 AM
That was pretty much what I was getting at. Any T206 showing such drastic differences from normal would have to pass some serious examination before it could be accepted as real.

I could see ones with some differences being out there. There's at least one uncataloged major difference, plus what I think is a new major variety that hasn't really caught on. And a huge number of smaller differences.

I've actually read the whole thread a few times, but only commented in detail since Larry seemed to be saying that any opinion without a close examination was biased because of the owners.

Steve B

Steve, you might be new to this discussion, but....


Okay, so throw that card away, next thought: there are just not very many t206 Wagners existing. If we were to ever see a 'previously unreleased version' of ANY t206, do you really think it would be drastically different from all other t206's in every respect other than size, and do you really think it would be of a t206 as rare as the Wagner? I doubt the existence of any such card in a Wagner version, so much, that you would have a hard time showing me one with a blue or red background, with his name spelled wrong, with ANYTHING on it that's different fro a 'normal' Wagner, and convincing me that it was legit, MUCH less if you wouldn't even let a respectable grading company look at it.

barrysloate
10-21-2011, 09:41 AM
Here's what I find curious, and I'm a curious guy by nature. When I see something that makes absolutely no sense, I question it.

Here's this new grading company called ACA that really none of us has heard of. They're trying to get into grading and authenticating baseball cards, a very crowded field, and one in which it is not easy to grab a market share. And in a situation like that a company feels they need to do something to draw attention to themselves. So what do they do- they take a card that is arguably the best known counterfeit in the hobby, and authenticate it. Can somebody explain this business model?

I know someone is going to say it brought them publicity, but that's like a doctor building his medical practice by infecting all his patients with bubonic plague. Sure, it will get him in the newspapers, but it won't build his practice. Like I said, this is a mystery. You can't build a business this way.

Kenny Cole
10-21-2011, 09:49 AM
I agree that slabbing fakes is a business model that most graders fear to venture into. Unfortunately, I fear that the demand may be higher for that service than I would like it to be. I suppose one could call it a niche market, although it is a niche market that I wish didn't exist.

ls7plus
10-21-2011, 09:58 AM
First of all, read my posts. I have never taken a postion with regard to this card's authencity. What I have said is the following:

(1) I would like more information with regard to the actual printing characteristics of the card;

(2) That the more actual information one has, the better one's decisions tend to be;

(3) That there have been occasions during my multiple decade involvement with this hobby, probably too numerous to count, where many people have felt they could positively authenticate a card or not, concerning its allegedly original, unaltered condition, based on the appearance of the card to the naked eye, and that they, including myself on several unfortunate occasions, have been wrong (this card hardly stands alone in this regard); and

(4) magnification has been of invaluable assistance to both dealers and collectors alike, as well, I would hope, to graders, in this regard, when it is coupled with a little knowledge.

Now, these truths should be self-evident, rather than a stimulus for vitriol and venom, and I wasn't the one who initiated any posts that were meant or intended to be insulting in the course of this discussion. I'm well aware of the history of this card, and have even read Michael O'Keeffe's discussion of it in his book, "The Card" (highly recommended reading on this as well as other subjects, by the way). To the above 4 points, I would add a 5th:

(5) What did this "newbie" grading service actually do in the way of examining the card to reach the conclusion they did?

I've always wanted to have as much information regarding this cherished hobby as I could lay my hands on, and this occasion is simply no different!

Best regards to all those other dedicated collectors out there, who know we hold the very history of the game itself in our hands as guardians/custodians for future generations,

Larry

Runscott
10-21-2011, 10:00 AM
Here's what I find curious, and I'm a curious guy by nature. When I see something that makes absolutely no sense, I question it.

Here's this new grading company called ACA that really none of us has heard of. They're trying to get into grading and authenticating baseball cards, a very crowded field, and one in which it is not easy to grab a market share. And in a situation like that a company feels they need to do something to draw attention to themselves. So what do they do- they take a card that is arguably the best known counterfeit in the hobby, and authenticate it. Can somebody explain this business model?

I know someone is going to say it brought them publicity, but that's like a doctor building his medical practice by infecting all his patients with bubonic plague. Sure, it will get him in the newspapers, but it won't build his practice. Like I said, this is a mystery. You can't build a business this way.

I actually responded to that in this thread, but it was ignored. I assumed that the readers felt my thoughts were irrelevant in that regard, but I still think they are legit.

Runscott
10-21-2011, 10:05 AM
There's at least one uncataloged major difference, plus what I think is a new major variety that hasn't really caught on. ...
Steve B

Examples please. If you are talking about the oddities that we have known about for decades, I refer you back to the rarity of the Wagner and the infinitesimally small odds of such a thing popping up for that particular card.

Personally, I think it would be hilarious (and sad at the same time), if this idea caught on. Within a couple of years we might see as many (or more) of these 'uncatalogued' versions of the T206 Wagner as we currently have actual examples of the real thing.

At some point, someone will figure out a computerized way of applying ink to cardboard to simulate t206-type lithography; e.g - you insert the card in a 'scanner' of some sort, it is analyzed by a computer and proper ink jets are activated to create an exact dot pattern. Seriously, it will happen.

barrysloate
10-21-2011, 10:10 AM
Scott- I went back and saw that you did indeed comment about this on post #34. But that was two weeks ago. My short term memory doesn't go that far back. Too much you know what.;)

Runscott
10-21-2011, 10:22 AM
Scott- I went back and saw that you did indeed comment about this on post #34. But that was two weeks ago. My short term memory doesn't go that far back. Too much you know what.;)

It's okay Barry. I should have just laughed when I initially opened this thread, and moved on.

novakjr
10-21-2011, 10:34 AM
First of all, read my posts. I have never taken a postion with regard to this card's authenticity. What I have said is the following:

(1) I would like more information with regard to the actual printing characteristics of the card;

(2) That the more actual information one has, the better one's decisions tend to be;


Larry, I understand your sentiments. BUT there is no discussions or decisions to be made by "anyone" about the validity of this card, or positions to be taken. Maybe the other counterfeits you had previously referred to. There is one thing we know about this particular card in question, and this is a POWER FACT, so take note... IT IS FAKE!!!! No questions asked or needed. I understand skepticism, but c'mon. It's glaringly obvious to the naked eye. And no matter how many times these clowns try to pull on people's heart-strings by crying racism, this card was not, nor ever will be a REAL t206 Honus Wagner, an unreleased version, or anything even remotely related to the American Tobacco Company.

Runscott
10-21-2011, 10:42 AM
Larry, I understand your sentiments. BUT there is no discussions or decisions to be made by "anyone" about the validity of this card, or positions to be taken. Maybe the other counterfeits you had previously referred to. There is one thing we know about this particular card in question, and this is a POWER FACT, so take note... IT IS FAKE!!!! No questions asked or needed. I understand skepticism, but c'mon. It's glaringly obvious to the naked eye. And no matter how many times these clowns try to pull on people's heart-strings by crying racism, this card was not, nor ever will be a REAL t206 Honus Wagner, an unreleased version, or anything even remotely related to the American Tobacco Company.

Yes, but what about the uncatalogued versions that actually say 'reprint' on them? Couldn't they have been released later in 1909, and the word 'reprint' used to differentiate them from the earlier releases? Don't you need to know more about their characteristics before deciding they are modern?

And please - what better way to scam people than by posing as nuns? I'm from the south, so I completely understand how I am automatically guilty of racism, any time it fits the needs of someone who I disagree with, due to the acts of my g-g-g-g-grandfather. Plus, I have always trusted nuns - sue me.

As far as the new Canadian slabbing company goes, I think it's great that the Cincinnati guys finally found a company they could trust to handle their prized card. I think this goes along with all of their other acts of altruism - how could you not trust two guys who are willing to give a start-up company their first big break?

steve B
10-21-2011, 11:12 AM
The known uncataloged variety is Wilson with a yellow or orange sky and a very different red sunset. Fairly major and once you have them both in hand it's easy to see it's not fading or a print problem. Both are common.
The major one was discussed here within the last year or so very sceptically, and has since been graded by PSA. I'm deliberately avoiding that one because it's a bit under the radar and I'm hoping to find one before it gets expensive.

The Wagners I have pictures of show probably 3 distinct very minor differences that I can see from the small pictures I have. I know I'll never own even one, but the differences are there.

Steve B
Examples please. If you are talking about the oddities that we have known about for decades, I refer you back to the rarity of the Wagner and the infinitesimally small odds of such a thing popping up for that particular card.

Personally, I think it would be hilarious (and sad at the same time), if this idea caught on. Within a couple of years we might see as many (or more) of these 'uncatalogued' versions of the T206 Wagner as we currently have actual examples of the real thing.

At some point, someone will figure out a computerized way of applying ink to cardboard to simulate t206-type lithography; e.g - you insert the card in a 'scanner' of some sort, it is analyzed by a computer and proper ink jets are activated to create an exact dot pattern. Seriously, it will happen.

Runscott
10-21-2011, 11:51 AM
The known uncataloged variety is Wilson with a yellow or orange sky and a very different red sunset. Fairly major and once you have them both in hand it's easy to see it's not fading or a print problem. Both are common.
The major one was discussed here within the last year or so very sceptically, and has since been graded by PSA. I'm deliberately avoiding that one because it's a bit under the radar and I'm hoping to find one before it gets expensive.

The Wagners I have pictures of show probably 3 distinct very minor differences that I can see from the small pictures I have. I know I'll never own even one, but the differences are there.

Steve B

Steve, you have me a bit baffled. So, in the few photo examples of real t206 Wagners that you have seen, you have spotted at least 3 distinct differences, yet you can't tell the Cincinnati one is a fake?

I'll leave others to discuss this with you, as I have nothing further to add that could help you with this.

howard38
10-21-2011, 12:09 PM
First of all, read my posts. I have never taken a postion with regard to this card's authencity. What I have said is the following:

(1) I would like more information with regard to the actual printing characteristics of the card;

(2) That the more actual information one has, the better one's decisions tend to be;

(3) That there have been occasions during my multiple decade involvement with this hobby, probably too numerous to count, where many people have felt they could positively authenticate a card or not, concerning its allegedly original, unaltered condition, based on the appearance of the card to the naked eye, and that they, including myself on several unfortunate occasions, have been wrong (this card hardly stands alone in this regard); and

(4) magnification has been of invaluable assistance to both dealers and collectors alike, as well, I would hope, to graders, in this regard, when it is coupled with a little knowledge.

Now, these truths should be self-evident, rather than a stimulus for vitriol and venom, and I wasn't the one who initiated any posts that were meant or intended to be insulting in the course of this discussion. I'm well aware of the history of this card, and have even read Michael O'Keeffe's discussion of it in his book, "The Card" (highly recommended reading on this as well as other subjects, by the way). To the above 4 points, I would add a 5th:

(5) What did this "newbie" grading service actually do in the way of examining the card to reach the conclusion they did?

I've always wanted to have as much information regarding this cherished hobby as I could lay my hands on, and this occasion is simply no different!

Best regards to all those other dedicated collectors out there, who know we hold the very history of the game itself in our hands as guardians/custodians for future generations,

Larry
You left out the part where you cited racism (prejudice). You ought not be surprised at any reaction when you bring up such a subject.

steve B
10-21-2011, 12:13 PM
Woah! My earlier post listed about 5 things that made me certain it IS a fake!

Maybe the section I had about how those things logically made the chances of it being real in any way incredibly small was confusing?

I do not think it's real.
I will admit a very tiny chance that I'm wrong.
I'm just as positive that If I were holding it that chance would become 0%

Steve B


Steve, you have me a bit baffled. So, in the few photo examples of real t206 Wagners that you have seen, you have spotted at least 3 distinct differences, yet you can't tell the Cincinnati one is a fake?

I'll leave others to discuss this with you, as I have nothing further to add that could help you with this.

Runscott
10-21-2011, 12:13 PM
The known uncataloged variety is Wilson with a yellow or orange sky and a very different red sunset. Fairly major and once you have them both in hand it's easy to see it's not fading or a print problem. Both are common.

Steve, I've never been quite sure what to make of this particular type of variation - you will find the multi-colored 'indistinct' separation differences in many, many litho cards. Wilson does kind of stand out in that there are two that are fairly distinct, but I have seen a few 'tweeners'. I think it's likely that on this type of 'variety', it's a case of having two areas on the 'red-orange' part of the plate that were easier to separate (not enough ink on one portion) than in most backgrounds like this. So basically, if it wasn't intentional, I don't consider it an uncatalogued 'variety' - it's related to a problem with the printing process and while interesting, not an error or variety.

Obviously, we have seen examples in other cards where the background colors are stunning, whereas other examples of the same card are less exciting. Some of the printers must have realized that even though they had a formulaic approach to producing these, sometimes the colors didn't come out right. If it was obvious, and the run didn't look good, it ended up in the scrap pile. If it looked good, it was probably kept. Obviously, the Wilson cards with various amounts of red below the orange all looked 'right', so no need to scrap.

Certainly the differences between a real card and a reprint are something else altogether. If it was easy (or even possible) to make a 'reprint' that could slip by the eyes of not only the doufusses who played the race card in their article, but ALSO by the eyes of real t206 collectors on this board, we'd have slabbed forgeries all over the place.

Okay, now I really have said all I have to say about this :)

steve B
10-21-2011, 12:37 PM
The Wilson is a real puzzler. There are 2 basic types that seem very different, with lots of variance between them.

Even in the late 1970's Litho ink colors were mixed by hand. So a simple color difference is usually just a matter of who did the mixing that day.

Producing an exact copy fake would be nearly impossible. In theory It could be done, but the expense and technical skills required would be prohibitive.

I have some defenite ideas about some of the small differences, I'd been planning on posting about it anyway.

But in a different thread that doesn't involve reprints:)

Steve B

benjulmag
10-21-2011, 01:44 PM
At some point, someone will figure out a computerized way of applying ink to cardboard to simulate t206-type lithography; e.g - you insert the card in a 'scanner' of some sort, it is analyzed by a computer and proper ink jets are activated to create an exact dot pattern. Seriously, it will happen.

Actually I agree with that, and have felt that way for years. A year or two ago there was a detailed thread that discussed this very issue. What I have been told by people with expertise in that sort of thing is that at the moment, if it could be done, the cost to duplicate a lithographic card so well such as to pass scrutiny in all respects would at minimum be multiples of 5 figures, very possibly going well into 6 figures. But I fear that day may be coming, or at least a day where only the most sophisticated equipment and testing, coupled with the most sophisticated knowledge, will be able to detect it.

barrysloate
10-21-2011, 01:48 PM
Even if the cost went into six figures, a single high grade Wagner would foot the whole bill. Everything after that would be profit. What would happen to the hobby if such a scenario were realized?

benjulmag
10-21-2011, 01:52 PM
Even if the cost went into six figures, a single high grade Wagner would foot the whole bill. Everything after that would be profit. What would happen to the hobby if such a scenario were realized?

Clearly the concern you express is correct, and it is scary. The implication, which we are already starting to see with respect to alterations, is that without provenance, "new find" Wagners may hold little value. For example, cards with a strong pedigree (e.g., Lionel Carter collection) will sell for premiums, which in time may become greater and greater.

Vintagedegu
10-21-2011, 01:55 PM
-

Runscott
10-21-2011, 02:05 PM
Clearly the concern you express is correct, and it is scary. The implication, which we are already starting to see with respect to alterations, is that without provenance, "new find" Wagners may hold little value. For example, cards with a strong pedigree (e.g., Lionel Carter collection) will sell for premiums, which in time may become greater and greater.

The price could go down just by printing entire sheets :eek:

Since legit graders like SGC can spot trims, they should be able to spot the sheet cuts in the future - PSA could also, but would they? (shut up Scott). Also, in the far future the paper fiber may still be very difficult to 'disguise' as old. I don't know about dating ink.

One thing forgers have going for them is that no one's going to want to give up ink or fiber samples for testing.

drc
10-21-2011, 02:08 PM
I don't believe that. Modern printing definitely does make a better and better representation of a T206 at the eye level, but more and more different at the microscopic level. Under the microscope, a laser printer looks nothing like 1909 lithography, and it is at the microscopic level that you identify and date the printing.

Now the way one could fool would be to make a fantasy item (totally made up, not a copy) using the old lithography techniques. In art schools, you can learn how to make stone lithographs. This is where provenance would be important.

Runscott
10-21-2011, 02:15 PM
I don't believe that. Modern printing definitely does make a better and better representation of a T206 at the eye level, but more and more different at the microscopic level. Under the microscope, a laser printer looks nothing like 1909 lithography, and it is at the microscopic level that you identify and date the printing.

Now the way one could fool would be to make a fantasy item (totally made up, not a copy) using the old lithography techniques. In art schools, you can learn how to make stone lithographs. This is where provenance would be important.

??? That's what we were talking about (duplicating the litho process).

Hey, it's only 1:15!!! coffee?

benjulmag
10-21-2011, 02:20 PM
Now the way one could fool would be to make a fantasy item (totally made up, not a copy) using the old lithography techniques. In art schools, you can learn how to make stone lithographs. This is where provenance would be important.

David,

Glad to see your post. As I recall you were the source of most of the expert information in the earlier thread. Do you think it would ever be possible to so well create a new card that it could pass forensic dating?

barrysloate
10-21-2011, 02:42 PM
Given the technology we have today, with smart phones, I Pads, satellites headed deep into outer space...you're telling me it would be impossible to reproduce a T206? I can't imagine that couldn't be tackled even today. It's just paper and ink.

benjulmag
10-21-2011, 03:05 PM
I would think though that to pass muster with forensic dating, every material of which the card is composed must not only not contain any substance that was not commercially available in 1909, but must also match up perfectly with the substance cocktail of which T206s are composed. I can see how the cost to do this, as well as comply with all other forensic tests (e.g., dot matrix pattern) could be quite large. And it would seem to me if someone knew to do this, I'm not sure counterfeiting Wagners would be the most profitable thing to counterfeit. After all, in addition to everybody's radar being up when a previously unknown Wagner surfaces, the fact that they would be turning up at a certain rate in and of itself will be a basis for suspicion. Therefore there would be a very limited number of times a counterfeiter would be able to go to the well on this with that in and of itself not becoming a cause for insurmountable suspicion.

Runscott
10-21-2011, 03:09 PM
Given the technology we have today, with smart phones, I Pads, satellites headed deep into outer space...you're telling me it would be impossible to reproduce a T206? I can't imagine that couldn't be tackled even today. It's just paper and ink.

The problem is that the resulting litho card has to have dot patterns that result in an image close enough to the real thing to fool someone like me or you, so that they can be sold as real. And even closer to matching the real t206 dot patterns exactly, so that it can fool the grading companies.

I think the second criteria will require a computer to control the ink application, since each dot in the original image has to be mapped (using a computer), then applied (again using a computer). I doubt that's possible today, but no doubt it will be in the future.

ls7plus
10-21-2011, 07:06 PM
I would think though that to pass muster with forensic dating, every material of which the card is composed must not only not contain any substance that was not commercially available in 1909, but must also match up perfectly with the substance cocktail of which T206s are composed. I can see how the cost to do this, as well as comply with all other forensic tests (e.g., dot matrix pattern) could be quite large. And it would seem to me if someone knew to do this, I'm not sure counterfeiting Wagners would be the most profitable thing to counterfeit. After all, in addition to everybody's radar being up when a previously unknown Wagner surfaces, the fact that they would be turning up at a certain rate in and of itself will be a basis for suspicion. Therefore there would be a very limited number of times a counterfeiter would be able to go to the well on this with that in and of itself not becoming a cause for insurmountable suspicion.

Anyone remember 1984 Star #101 Jordan's, when out of the original supposed print run of 4,000, it seemed like 14,000 were still out there after they caught fire in the early to mid-'90's? Or the 1985 Chong Modesto A's McGwire, when, despite a supposed original print run of 250 or so, they were everywhere during and after 1998? Up goes supply, down goes $$$ value.

As one that prefers to see the glass half-full, however, I believe that whenever something like a card is produced by a different process and/or with different materials than the original, there will be differences. With technological advances, those differences may be difficult to detect, but I am convinced that they will indeed be detectable. The costs of detection may rise considerably, however. Invest in grading companies now??? A most interesting proposition to discuss (not the investment in TPG companies, but the detectability issue itself). The same concerns would seem to apply equally to the coin collecting field, with the possibility of using computers to conceivably re-create dies to stamp out coins of famous rarities, like the 1804 silver dollar, 1913 liberty head nickel, etc., assuming you could also duplicate the metalurgical contents of the planchets from which the coins themselves are struck by the dies. At the moment, there are a lot more coins that have sold for $100,000 plus than cards, and quite a few collections have sold for sums into 8 figures. There's a lot of money at stake there, and at stake here. In such circumstances, the financing necessary to devise counter-measures of detection will be in place, almost regardless of the expense. Different processes and times of manufacture will leave different footprints, IMO.

May your collecting always be a prosperous proposition, even as to those that think I should find a new hobby after more than 20 years!

Larry

steve B
10-21-2011, 07:54 PM
The thing is that the technology to detect it is already getting cheaper.

On TV I saw a show by the twins from antiques roadshow. One item they needed to know if it was ancient chineese bronze or new stuff. So they got out the portable spectrograph! Results in about as much time as it takes to scan a card and no tiny sample to destroy.

A friend of mine worked building spectrographs years ago, and I knew they were expensive. So I did some looking, and a setup like they used on TV was only $30,000 instead of the mid 6 figure and up prices I recall.

If a high grade Wagner was found having the spectrograph results would be cheap considering the price.

Steve B

ls7plus
10-21-2011, 08:07 PM
Thanks, Steve--very interesting!

Best always,

Larry

joeadcock
10-21-2011, 09:05 PM
Barry

I would guess the 2 owners of the card will wait awhile(?who knows how long), and this story will die down.

Then the Wager ACA card will likely pop up on ebay for a very large amt of money as a BUY IT NOW. If no takers, they may auction it off as a legitimately graded card. Legitimate that is to ACA. And no doubt someone will pay hundreds to perhaps thousand(s) for it(though none of the board members)

This card on ebay will fuel hope in someone that they may actually have a Wagner for a lot less money than they could every afford. That person will have bought a fake.

When (not if) this happens, I doubt the owners would fade. They may try it again(since it worked the first time), with another card of value(i.e. Plank T206, or Lajoie Goudey). Probably use ACA again if it is still around and if the Wagner does not expose them by that time. This time, they will likely do it privately(without much fanfare)

barrysloate
10-22-2011, 04:53 AM
You're probably right. They will look for some venue that might work for them. It might be ebay, it might be one of those small country auctions like they tried the first time around. This story won't have a happy ending, but I'm sure these guys will try to sell it.

glynparson
10-24-2011, 01:28 PM
sIMILAR CARD BOARD SAME PLATES, big DIFFERENCE FROM THIS PIECE OF CRAP, AGAIN IF YOU NEED A LOUPE FOR THIS CARD YOU DONT KNOW CRAP ABOUT CARDS, SORRY Larry but since i dont sell anymore i actually can be more honest, about what is know a hobby and something I do love and am passionate about. There are alterations and even a few counterfeits that need louping but the overwhelming majority have a number of signs that give them away as fraudulent before you ever need to pick up a loupe. I am willing to bet over 90% of fakes are deemed as such at grading companies before they ever pick up a loupe. You can discredit authenticity without one, however on something like wagner or a mantle 52 many may need one before unequivocally authenticating.

brass_rat
11-11-2011, 07:48 PM
...but thought I'd share a link to a "press release"...

http://www.prlog.org/11711982-ohio-cousins-are-ready-to-auction-off-the-holy-grail-of-baseball-collectibles.html

...and in case you want to "like" the card on Facebook, the card even has its own fan page...

www.facebook.com/TheCobbEdwardsT206HonusWagnerCard

Runscott
11-11-2011, 08:26 PM
...but thought I'd share a link to a "press release"...

http://www.prlog.org/11711982-ohio-cousins-are-ready-to-auction-off-the-holy-grail-of-baseball-collectibles.html

...and in case you want to "like" the card on Facebook, the card even has its own fan page...

www.facebook.com/TheCobbEdwardsT206HonusWagnerCard

I hope they are planning to use Colossal Auctions.

Kenny Cole
11-11-2011, 08:27 PM
Interesting. They were willing to place the card in a safe owned by someone else (who unsuccessfully attempted to auction the card) for 5 years, but were afraid to give it up to a grader for 20 minutes or so. Hmmm. Yep, race and class are the issues. Particularly class, or the lack thereof.

Anyone want to go in halfsies on creating a few fraudulent Just So cards, or maybe some N172 Anson in uniform cards? If I read the story correctly, all we have to do is perservere for a few years. I'm a WASP, so that race thing is kind of problematic, but I'm sure we can figure out a way to overcome that handicap. If we can, at the least, we should be able to get a book or film deal. If the article is correct, it should easy money.

iggyman
11-11-2011, 08:28 PM
Whoa! So it's not a proof but a genuine reprint from the "war to end all wars" era??? All this from a Canadian cable tv appraiser??? Bernard Goldberg and Bryant Gumbel! I'm stoked! I can't wait for the movie!

Lovely Day...

barrysloate
11-12-2011, 04:53 AM
Well, they need an angle to sell this so of course they're playing the race card. We're just picking on them because we're white and they're black. And outright lying doesn't hurt either. They claim that various message boards (meaning us) have been hurling racial epithets at them. Nobody here has ever made even one racial comment towards them; the only negative criticism we've expressed is that they are committing fraud.

Then they take another predictable route: since Mastro is under investigation, he can't possibly be trusted to authenticate it. And since PSA graded the Gretzky Wagner, they too wouldn't know if it's real. Just play out the bullsh*t angle and everything will be fine.

And I knew they would go back to the Connelly fellow because he was the only one to support them the first time around. I hope that on the day this card is scheduled to be auctioned, the feds are there with three pairs of handcuffs. What a crock of sh*t.

z28jd
11-12-2011, 11:06 AM
The funny thing about them playing the race card is they are trying to sell the card so how does it even make sense to say those rich white men who run the hobby won't buy the card from them because of their color? I could see them playing the race card if they had a mint condition Wagner and wanted it to be recognized as the best one in the hobby but they are trying to sell the card to these rich white men who want to own a Wagner, you could probably find hundreds of them to bid on a real one and they wouldn't care who owns it. There has never been an auction description for an authentic Wagner that sold that included the color of the seller in the description just for full disclosure

Playing the race card makes absolutely zero sense in this situation and I don't know how they convince people to write stories based on that premise. They're basically saying these rich white men refuse to give them money for the holy grail of baseball cards, not based on the card's authenticity but based on the color of the seller's skin.

tiger8mush
11-12-2011, 12:13 PM
Well, they need an angle to sell this so of course they're playing the race card. We're just picking on them because we're white and they're black. And outright lying doesn't hurt either. They claim that various message boards (meaning us) have been hurling racial epithets at them. Nobody here has ever made even one racial comment towards them; the only negative criticism we've expressed is that they are committing fraud.

Then they take another predictable route: since Mastro is under investigation, he can't possibly be trusted to authenticate it. And since PSA graded the Gretzky Wagner, they too wouldn't know if it's real. Just play out the bullsh*t angle and everything will be fine.

And I knew they would go back to the Connelly fellow because he was the only one to support them the first time around. I hope that on the day this card is scheduled to be auctioned, the feds are there with three pairs of handcuffs. What a crock of sh*t.

wow Barry, in the ~6 years of me being part of net54, i think thats the most worked up I remember you getting!

barrysloate
11-12-2011, 12:40 PM
Rob- when these guys first surfaced on the board- I believe it was Mr. Cobb who posted here many years ago- I was equally agitated. There are so many things about them that get me worked up. However, I agree I'm normally a whole lot calmer... I forgot to take my Propofol this morning.;)

MW1
11-12-2011, 01:04 PM
wow Barry, in the ~6 years of me being part of net54, i think thats the most worked up I remember you getting!Barry's absolutely correct. I've recounted the story a number of times, but to wit, I was there when they first purchased the card at a show in Cincinnati and it was obvious from the beginning that the two of them were con men. They knew (and admitted) it was fake then and they know it's fake now. The most remarkable aspect of the entire saga, however, is how far the story has been drawn out and how many resources various local and national news outlets have expended on it. Cobb and Edwards bought a reprinted T206 Wagner off of a dealer's table for $1. End of story. No other footnotes required.

bosoxfan
11-12-2011, 01:18 PM
The funny thing about them playing the race card is they are trying to sell the card so how does it even make sense to say those rich white men who run the hobby won't buy the card from them because of their color? I could see them playing the race card if they had a mint condition Wagner and wanted it to be recognized as the best one in the hobby but they are trying to sell the card to these rich white men who want to own a Wagner, you could probably find hundreds of them to bid on a real one and they wouldn't care who owns it. There has never been an auction description for an authentic Wagner that sold that included the color of the seller in the description just for full disclosure

Playing the race card makes absolutely zero sense in this situation and I don't know how they convince people to write stories based on that premise. They're basically saying these rich white men refuse to give them money for the holy grail of baseball cards, not based on the card's authenticity but based on the color of the seller's skin.


Truer words have never been spoken

drc
11-12-2011, 02:25 PM
No one here knows the racial makeup up of T206 Wagner consignors overall. As noted the identities are rarely revealed to the bidders. I don't know. You don't know. The gentlemen from Cincinnati don't know. The reporters from the New York Daily News don't know. As consignments are mostly done through the mail, the auction houses don't know the races of most of their consignors. Who says black men haven't before successfully consigned or gotten graded by PSA a T206 Wagner before? Someone's claim that no black men have successfully consigned before a T206 Wagner to REA or Legendary or whatever big wig auction or house or gotten a T206 Wagner graded/authenticated by PSA or SGC is conjecture. And not only is it conjecture, it could also be wrong.

barrysloate
11-12-2011, 02:55 PM
If that Wagner were real, its owners would be amazed at how many white collectors would be happy to discuss with them a possible purchase. They would be equally amazed at how many white consignment directors would gladly work out a favorable deal with them to get it in their auctions. They might even take those two gentlemen out to dinner. If it were real all racial tensions would thaw in a nanosecond.

Denali
11-12-2011, 10:40 PM
I have been a member of Net54 for a few months but haven't posted yet because I am not sure whether I want to get back into collecting yet. My interest would be in T206 era tobacco packs.

Anyway, I came across this 2002 Cincinnati Enquirer article online that I found to be intriguing:

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/08/23/loc_honus_wagner_card.html

The article stated that the card was claimed to have been picked up at an "estate sale".

Is it related?

cobblove
11-13-2011, 02:26 PM
Hey I have that card!!!!!!!!!!
One sec its with my 1990 score baseball cards. Didnt know it was worth millions. But I did pay 1800.00 one night when I was a sleep. Dont look at the front though look at the back please!!
Oh and can I have 1,000,000.00 I work very hard some times. Easy street please!

bn2cardz
03-30-2012, 09:43 AM
Barry

I would guess the 2 owners of the card will wait awhile(?who knows how long), and this story will die down.

Then the Wager ACA card will likely pop up on ebay for a very large amt of money as a BUY IT NOW.


It looks like 6months is the length of time that Cobb and Edwards waited with their fake Wagner. Also you were right it will end up on ebay.

http://www.honuswagnerauction.com/

I know people are getting tired of this story, but I still find it interesting until there is an end (more than likely the two selling it, then ending up in jail for fraud).

This website they started for their auction just seems to give more evidence as to the card being fake. In particular the page they have named "Rosary Dot Matrix info" (http://www.honuswagnerauction.com/?page_id=277). I have never seen a close up of this card before, but now that they have given a close up of the card it is even funnier. Why wouldn't they compare it to another t206 instead of a postcard? Because it doesn't have the same printing!

I know everyone here knows it is a fake, but we need to keep posting these posts whenever it is going up for sale to fight "News" articles that pop up like these that popped up today:
PRWeb (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/3/prweb9345370.htm)
This article has even been picked up by yahoo news as well as other outlets that are publishing the news article from prweb.

Runscott
03-30-2012, 10:01 AM
Barry's absolutely correct. I've recounted the story a number of times, but to wit, I was there when they first purchased the card at a show in Cincinnati and it was obvious from the beginning that the two of them were con men. They knew (and admitted) it was fake then and they know it's fake now. The most remarkable aspect of the entire saga, however, is how far the story has been drawn out and how many resources various local and national news outlets have expended on it. Cobb and Edwards bought a reprinted T206 Wagner off of a dealer's table for $1. End of story. No other footnotes required.

Michael, if you really want to have some fun with this, buy a copy of the same reprint they used and create a page showing close-ups of your print patterns and comparing them to those on the scammer card. Send it to the media - they would have a field day with exposing the scammers.

g_vezina_c55
03-30-2012, 10:12 AM
i spoke last week end at the MTL card show with the man at ACA who authenticated this Wagner and i asked several question about the card to the authenticator.

All the answer i received from the grader didn t persuade me it is a real card. I continue to think it is a fake. He said to me that ebay will permit the sale of the card in april on ebay website.

i have some difficult to explane his answer in english but his explanation is it is not the honus wagner card like we all know... he said it is another version of the wagner.... anyway

for me it is not a real Wagner T206.

fkw
03-30-2012, 11:17 AM
this story aint even funny anymore..

The card is so bad and easy to spot as not being from the 1910 Era let alone related to T206 (not lithographed) its borderline stupidity on the medias part, that keeps it in the news.
Its not even a counterfeit, its a reprint Ive seen many times (1985-90s Era one) that is badly doctored to look old.
A counterfeit is usually much better, and made to fool. This is a novelty piece for amusement...

that "Rosary Dot Matrix" page is funny though, they are trying to PROVE its not authentic (w/o even knowing it) with that crap :)

love the "rainbow printed" caption closeup, thats all the proof you need to know its not lithographed... lol

E93
03-30-2012, 11:22 AM
These guys are relentless. THey sure are putting a lot of energy into what will either amount to nothing (no sale), or a fraud charge and time in prison.
JimB

scooter729
03-30-2012, 11:27 AM
Well, direct from their website:

"The Cobb/Edwards card past all test giving by the VSC40FS machine."

It "past" all test. Sounds to me like it went right past the test alright....

barrysloate
03-30-2012, 11:31 AM
If it goes on ebay, there will be enough people contacting them with negative feedback and ebay will be forced to shut it down.

On their website, Cobbs and Edwards post that despite all the negative publicity, nobody has come up with the facts to dispute its authenticity. And that of course is an absolute lie. They've been told on countless occasions the card appears to be a reprint glued to a real Piedmont back, and they've been told repeatedly that the paper is wrong, the colors are washed out, the resolution is poor, the fonts aren't right, among other things. They instead choose to tune out the facts and create ones of their own.

Runscott
03-30-2012, 11:37 AM
If it goes on ebay, there will be enough people contacting them with negative feedback and ebay will be forced to shut it down.

On their website, Cobbs and Edwards post that despite all the negative publicity, nobody has come up with the facts to dispute its authenticity. And that of course is an absolute lie. They've been told on countless occasions the card appears to be a reprint glued to a real Piedmont back, and they've been told repeatedly that the paper is wrong, the colors are washed out, the resolution is poor, the fonts aren't right, among other things. They instead choose to tune out the facts and create ones of their own.

Yes, but Barry - since they are the ones who had all the modifications made to this reprint card, their behavior in attempting to sell it is as to be expected. The real joke is the few ambulance-chaser-grade media reps who have given them publicity. The joke ends when it finally gets purchased and the new owner takes them to court.

And that's when the real entertainment begins for us.

barrysloate
03-30-2012, 12:14 PM
It would be unfortunate if somebody actually pays thousands of dollars for it. It could happen.

teetwoohsix
03-30-2012, 12:32 PM
It would be unfortunate if somebody actually pays thousands of dollars for it. It could happen.

You're right Barry- but that's what they're banking on. Just one person who will buy into the dream of owning one- and believe all the B/S in the write up on their website.

It's funny how they did the close up of the printing of the words......multi colored :D

FAKE

Sincerely, Clayton

sbfinley
03-30-2012, 12:41 PM
There is no way in heck ebay allows that auction to run its course. It seems that with these clowns it is not about the money anymore (well it is a little about the money) as much as it is about "Ha, I told you so."

If I happen to hit mega-millions tonight, I'll buy it and burn it just to end this story.

ullmandds
03-30-2012, 12:47 PM
They've created their own reality distortion field.

g_vezina_c55
03-30-2012, 12:49 PM
There is no way in heck ebay allows that auction to run its course. It seems that with these clowns it is not about the money anymore (well it is a little about the money) as much as it is about "Ha, I told you so."

If I happen to hit mega-millions tonight, I'll buy it and burn it just to end this story.

It is the guy at ACA who told to me the card will be allow by ebay to be sold in april.... it is what he said to me last week end...

wathever the place this card will be for sale, these guy will not find buyer for his card.

bn2cardz
03-30-2012, 12:53 PM
It is the guy at ACA who told to me the card will be allow by ebay to be sold in april.... it is what he said to me last week end...

wathever the place this card will be for sale, these guy will not find buyer for his card.

I have a feeling ebay may be allowing it as long as they cover the fact that the card has "controversy" surrounding it. Also at this point they (the cousins) may be saying to Ebay that it now is a collectible in and of itself because of the news that has surrounded it.

barrysloate
03-30-2012, 01:00 PM
I don't see any controversy whatsoever regarding this card. It's a fake with no argument proving otherwise.

g_vezina_c55
03-30-2012, 01:04 PM
i don't see any controversy whatsoever regarding this card. It's a fake with no argument proving otherwise.

x 2

bn2cardz
03-30-2012, 01:05 PM
I don't see any controversy whatsoever regarding this card. It's a fake with no argument proving otherwise.

Entirely, 100%, agreed. That is why I had to put it in quotes.

atx840
03-30-2012, 04:19 PM
http://i.imgur.com/BDKWI.jpg

Blunder19
03-30-2012, 04:55 PM
if it goes on ebay I will buy it..... for $1.99

z28jd
03-30-2012, 07:17 PM
For those just reading this again, this reprint isn't even one of one and it isn't a real back on a fake front. I have the same exact card. Got it from a dealer at a Cherry Hill,NJ show in 1991ish.

MW1
03-30-2012, 08:45 PM
Michael, if you really want to have some fun with this, buy a copy of the same reprint they used and create a page showing close-ups of your print patterns and comparing them to those on the scammer card. Send it to the media - they would have a field day with exposing the scammers.I have to admit that now I'm not so sure. I mean, the card has a FACTORY DIST. NUMBER on the reverse side so now I'm thinking it might be real after all.

See for yourself: http://www.honuswagnerauction.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Piedmont-back-150150350-back-revise3.jpg

Bilko G
03-31-2012, 07:01 AM
Interesting thread. the ACA slabs/flips look almost identical to BGS

Mdoe
03-31-2012, 07:25 AM
I have to admit that now I'm not so sure. I mean, the card has a FACTORY DIST. NUMBER on the reverse side so now I'm thinking it might be real after all.

See for yourself: http://www.honuswagnerauction.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Piedmont-back-150150350-back-revise3.jpg

The issue has never been the back- generally accepted that the back is real and the front is a reprint affixed to an authentic back. Also, there are reprints out there with factory numbers.

MW1
03-31-2012, 09:16 AM
The issue has never been the back- generally accepted that the back is real and the front is a reprint affixed to an authentic back. Also, there are reprints out there with factory numbers.Yes. I know. I was being facetious.

teetwoohsix
04-01-2012, 08:17 PM
They've created their own reality distortion field.

:D LMFAO :D Thanks....

Sincerely, Clayton

z28jd
04-01-2012, 09:05 PM
Did anyone notice the picture they used to help you learn about the t206 set? Looks like four of those cards are just as real t206's as the Wagner they are trying to sell.

For full disclosure, I hope it does sell for 10x what it is actually worth and the person who buys it, takes it famous places and takes pictures with it, Flat Honus

Angyale
04-01-2012, 09:52 PM
Did anyone notice the examiners cert calls it an unrealesed version instead of an unreleased version..... :)

MW1
04-01-2012, 11:01 PM
Did anyone notice the examiners cert calls it an unrealesed version instead of an unreleased version..... :)The entire website is filled with misspellings, malapropisms and unintentional (but humorous) errors.

I predict the card won't get higher than $1000 if eBay decides to allow the auction to run to completion but you never know. If the price remains low -- at least relative to T206 Wagners that are authentic -- it's going to be a more difficult task for Cobb and Edwards to try to paint all potential eBay buyers as racists.

If, however, the card sells for much more, I have to think that we will see a lawsuit at some point after the new owner submits the card to PSA, SGC and/or Beckett.

In the long run it is difficult to see how Cobb and Edwards are going to profit from their obtusely contrived business venture.

g_vezina_c55
04-02-2012, 06:40 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item4ab57e82f1&item=320872547057&nma=true&pt=US_Baseball&rt=nc&si=t2RiR%252BxOl%252Fy7bK8Qlw2Zbn8Tx%252Bs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

barrysloate
04-02-2012, 06:52 PM
A 600K starting bid is every bit as dopey as every other aspect of this story. And of course it will pass and these two guys will still own the card.

Tsaiko
04-02-2012, 08:13 PM
This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.

That's it, it's no longer available, .....or is it??? Did ebay nuke it?

"The T206 sat of cars is full with errors"
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/020/8/7/Nuclear_Facepalm_Poster_by_Nianden.jpg

bn2cardz
04-02-2012, 08:37 PM
From the auction description:

"Do you end auctions early?

Sorry, but we do not end auction early. Auctions will go for the full duration."

From Ebay:
"This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available."


Their website also states that the auction will be on April 18th, so was this just a teaser?

V117collector
04-02-2012, 08:39 PM
I thought this interview was pretty good..

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0xe1tLBAFJ4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

jerseygary
04-02-2012, 10:21 PM
Well, master printer Arnie Schwed says it's real, so what more do you want?

Seriously, I've never seen that video before and boy what a sad story it makes. I have to hand it to those two fellas for riding it out this long, but it still don't make that reprint real. If so, me and my little brother would be on easy street living off those Dover Reprint books my Mom bought us back in the early 80's!

Matthew H
04-02-2012, 10:49 PM
Lol eBay already cut the auction

Bilko G
04-03-2012, 01:18 AM
Lol eBay already cut the auction

Ebay didn't cut the auction. Had Ebay cut the auction you wouldn't be able to see the pics, description, opening bid, etc.

The sellers stopped the auction shortly after starting it. Id imagine they did this as a "test" to see how it looked and that they had all their info on there how they wanted it.

cobblove
04-03-2012, 02:13 AM
I bet they were testing to see if ebay would cut the auction early if they listed it.

2dueces
04-03-2012, 06:13 AM
Geez, I'm really tired of this story and card. Can we please just chalk this up as a fake and put it to bed once and for all. No one with money to buy a Wagner is going to touch this card with a ten foot pole.

Mdoe
04-03-2012, 07:29 AM
It is humurous, and a bit ironic, that the suggested items on the ebay auction page are all reprint Wagners vice real T206s...

One would think that if you are trying to sell an item for 600K, you would at least check spelling and grammer of your listing.

DerekD
04-03-2012, 08:28 AM
Ebay didn't cut the auction. Had Ebay cut the auction you wouldn't be able to see the pics, description, opening bid, etc.

The sellers stopped the auction shortly after starting it. Id imagine they did this as a "test" to see how it looked and that they had all their info on there how they wanted it.


I'd say it's was just an ad to point to their website, which they only put in there five times. Hopefully it will get reported enough that ebay will remove it totally.

barrysloate
04-03-2012, 08:38 AM
It is humurous, and a bit ironic, that the suggested items on the ebay auction page are all reprint Wagners vice real T206s...

One would think that if you are trying to sell an item for 600K, you would at least check spelling and grammer of your listing.

Correct spelling is "grammar.":)....sorry, couldn't resist.

frankbmd
04-03-2012, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdoe View Post
It is humurous, and a bit ironic, that the suggested items on the ebay auction page are all reprint Wagners vice real T206s...

One would think that if you are trying to sell an item for 600K, you would at least check spelling and grammer of your listing.
Correct spelling is "grammar."....sorry, couldn't resist.

Barry,

That comment was not humurous (????????) :D:D:D:D:D:D
grammarically (????) speaking. I couldn't resist either.

Frank

Mdoe
04-03-2012, 11:35 AM
I clearly have the poor grammar part down... Now I just need to create my own Wagner T206 and a website dedicated to proving its authenticity...:p

bobbyw8469
04-03-2012, 11:35 AM
Do you end auctions early?

Sorry, but we do not end auction early. Auctions will go for the full duration



LOL!! Looks like they ended the auction early!

iggyman
04-12-2012, 12:57 PM
Just when you thought it was safe to be a suburbanite prewar card collector. They're here!

http://www.virtual-strategy.com/2012/04/12/cobbedwards-t206-honus-wagner-set-auction

There's a place for us.........Somewhere a place for us.......Peace and quiet........and open air..........Wait for us.........Somewhere.........

Lovely Day...

g_vezina_c55
04-12-2012, 01:24 PM
another step in the saga.

bn2cardz
04-12-2012, 01:36 PM
Just when you thought it was safe to be a suburbanite prewar card collector. They're here!

http://www.virtual-strategy.com/2012/04/12/cobbedwards-t206-honus-wagner-set-auction

There's a place for us.........Somewhere a place for us.......Peace and quiet........and open air..........Wait for us.........Somewhere.........

Lovely Day...

I have learned that the cousins are writing these stories and distributing them using the web site http://www.prweb.com/. The site is used for companies to send out press releases to online news companies. The news companies just grab the stories from them without discernment.

barrysloate
04-12-2012, 01:42 PM
The owners say "We want everyone to have the facts."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but has anybody seen any facts up to this point?

Leon
04-12-2012, 04:40 PM
I called the auctioneer today and left a message. He called me back and seems like a really nice guy. We spoke for approximately 25 minutes. He knows the whole story. At the end of the day I think it is more about publicity. I told him at the end of all of this he will be out a lot of time, make no money and could possibly be a laughing stock. He took it in stride. He says he is only going by all of the experts who have authenticated it and is a venue only. I guess the company who authenticated it knows some hockey player....or vice versa and that gives them some credibility, according to him. After we spoke and spoke I just had to let him know that no matter what is said, or done.....it is still just a fake card. Plain and simple.

Runscott
04-12-2012, 04:47 PM
The owners say "We want everyone to have the facts."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but has anybody seen any facts up to this point?

There are two facts:

1. It's a reprint
2. The sellers know it's a reprint

CW
04-12-2012, 05:29 PM
Chris Felix, Cincinnati sports artist who was commissioned by the ToppsTrading Card Company 2 years ago will be featuring an original painting that illustrates the cousins 10 year journey.

Wow. How exactly does an artist render 10 years of epic failure on canvas?

I will admit, I have been mildly entertained by this whole ordeal. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out. I am also curious to see if eBay actually lets this auction run its full course.

The real irony here is that if these two cousins had spent this much time and energy on a credible, legitimate business venture, they would've likely been on their way to making close to the same amount of money that they seek for this "Wagner".


_______________________________
€hû¢k Wölƒƒ

Tsaiko
04-12-2012, 05:43 PM
There are two facts:

1. It's a reprint
2. The sellers know it's a reprint

1. They're fake breasts
2. She knows they're fake, we know they're fake.
3. Someone won't know or someone won't care.

P. T. Barnum said it best......

The potentially sad thing about this, is that someone ignorant of the hobby might buy it, then a month later they'll stumble onto net54 and want to show off their new possession. :(

g_vezina_c55
04-12-2012, 08:27 PM
The potentially sad thing about this, is that someone ignorant of the hobby might buy it, then a month later they'll stumble onto net54 and want to show off their new possession. :(


Hope this will not happen.

CW
04-18-2012, 09:38 PM
The auction appears to be live, with a starting bid of only $500K...

Link to eBay auction (http://www.ebay.com/itm/COBB-EDWARDS-1909-T206-HONUS-WAGNER-ACA-GRADING-AUTHENTIC-/160785274734?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item256f8c976e) edit: auction pulled. Link will not work.

They have also posted what appears to be a new YouTube video, as well as a preview of the new painting created to depict the owners' ordeal with this card. Yes, it keeps getting better!

http://youtu.be/DrZNmp_eYMY

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DrZNmp_eYMY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

CW
04-18-2012, 09:48 PM
Had to post this screen cap. Gold.

WhenItWasAHobby
04-19-2012, 06:31 AM
This screams volumes. My only issue with it is that it should be in size 24 font in bold print at the top of the description.

Disclaimer:
Manage My Auction, LLC and the listing agent makes no representations or statements of fact on the authenticity of the Cobb / Edwards T206 Honus Wagner Piedmont back baseball card. Manage My Auction, LLC, is a third party professional auction listing services company. We are not affiliated with eBay. We are an independent company. Viewers of this page and bidders agree and acknowledge that they will indemnify and hold harmless Manage My Auction, LLC and its officers, members, employees, partners, agents and staff from any and all claims, causes of action, actions, suits, errors, judgments, actions, failure to obtain any licenses, releases and/or consents and demands as a result of any acts of omission, negligence, injuries or damage to persons and/or property arising out of or in connection with the use of the services specified. Viewers and bidders also certifies that any information and/or materials supplied to Manage My Auction, LLC by Ray Edwards and John Cobb is accurate and complete and therefore Manage My Auction, LLC is not liable for any inaccurate and/or incomplete information or materials provided by Ray Edwards and John Cobb to Manage My Auction, LLC.

bn2cardz
04-19-2012, 09:19 AM
I posted yesterday (a lost post) that it is obvious from the disclaimer that the Auction company is not taking any position on whether it is authentic. To me, since they are the posters on ebay, that is an authenticity disclaimer that Ebay is not suppose to allow.

Also I noticed in their description they reference the t206museum. If you go to their site they have a picture of the card and it says it is a fake. That seems like a backfire on their part. haha :D

bn2cardz
04-19-2012, 09:47 AM
I see ebay took down the auction. I guess managemyauction and ACA didn't have it worked out with ebay like they claimed.

Runscott
04-19-2012, 10:01 AM
Cut the guy some slack - I really think he meant to say 'HOBBIT', which of course makes perfect sense. I mean, Hobbits can't really authenticate anything.

http://net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61480&stc=1&d=1334807320

bn2cardz
04-19-2012, 10:26 AM
cut the guy some slack - i really think he meant to say 'hobbit', which of course makes perfect sense. I mean, hobbits can't really authenticate anything.

http://net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=61480&stc=1&d=1334807320

haha

ullmandds
04-19-2012, 10:40 AM
i sent the seller a message this morning telling him/her what a joke this auction was as the card is a pathetic fake worth about $1 maximum...I wonder if this had any impact!?

bn2cardz
04-19-2012, 11:04 AM
i sent the seller a message this morning telling him/her what a joke this auction was as the card is a pathetic fake worth about $1 maximum...I wonder if this had any impact!?

I reported it to ebay as having a "authenticity disclaimer". So even if they got permission for having an ACA graded card, I can't imagine it could make it past the disclaimer problem.

tbob
04-19-2012, 11:41 AM
"Why don't those in the collecting hobby except science."
Hobbyists don't disavow science, I think he means why don't they accept science.
I feel sorry for the guy because it's obvious he feels the card is genuine no matter how much opinion and information is stacked against him.
He needs to deal with the fact the card is not genuine. period.

ctownboy
04-19-2012, 12:34 PM
I was going to ask the sellers this question.

If I were to take an authentic T206 baseball card produced in 1910 that had a Piedmont back and I cut that back off and then glued on the front of a Honus Wagner reproduction, could I also have a forensic examiner test only the BACK paper fibers, have an obscure Canadian company grade the card and say it is an error or unknown variation and then list it on eBay for a starting bid of $500,000 dollars?

I doubt they would list the question on eBay or respond (or if they did, I am sure it would be something derogatory and full of misspelled words).

David

barrysloate
04-19-2012, 12:52 PM
Now that ebay shut him down, is it possible he will finally come around to the fact that his card is no good? Or will he look for yet another venue to try and sell it? At some point he needs to face reality.

Runscott
04-19-2012, 01:46 PM
Hey, one of the cuckoos fell out of the nest...

How the f**k are you. First I have been on ebay since 2002, check my HBO and ESPN videos (www.honuswagnerauction.com) or yutube Cobb and Edwards. Secound Mr. know it all on T206's, what company reprinted my card. I need the company name. Don't call it a reprint and you don't know the company that reprinted the card. Also I have been collecting cards and other items for over 30 years. I know what I have and have done the research to prove what I have is the real deal. Do your research and tell me what company reprinted my card since you are calling it a reprint. Good look on finding that company. And if you are not interested in buying my card, then mind your business and move on.....

- rainbow95x87

ullmandds
04-19-2012, 01:56 PM
Not lookin' like it barry!

barrysloate
04-19-2012, 02:07 PM
You're right Peter...these guys aren't giving up. Of course, it wouldn't hurt them to get some manners....

bn2cardz
04-19-2012, 02:12 PM
Hey, one of the cuckoos fell out of the nest...

How the f**k are you. First I have been on ebay since 2002, check my HBO and ESPN videos (www.honuswagnerauction.com) or yutube Cobb and Edwards. Secound Mr. know it all on T206's, what company reprinted my card. I need the company name. Don't call it a reprint and you don't know the company that reprinted the card. Also I have been collecting cards and other items for over 30 years. I know what I have and have done the research to prove what I have is the real deal. Do your research and tell me what company reprinted my card since you are calling it a reprint. Good look on finding that company. And if you are not interested in buying my card, then mind your business and move on.....

- rainbow95x87

Why do they think that every company that makes reprints acknowledges that they are making a reprint?

drc
04-19-2012, 03:01 PM
Aren't the authentic versions supposed to say 'No a reprint' on them?

bbcard1
04-19-2012, 03:03 PM
I do admire their tenacity. I only wish they were doing something productive.

I once had a friend who was very gifted at arguing that a bird and a fish were the same animal. But a bird can fly. Some fish can fly. But fish live in the water. Ducks live in the water and they are birds.

I think these guys would get along very well with my friend. I might add, you can look at a fish and tell it's not a bird.

drc
04-19-2012, 03:21 PM
Sorry. Birds are on the water.

Runscott
04-19-2012, 03:49 PM
These guys would fail the 'fish=bird' debate miserably - their logic is flawed on so many levels it isn't funny. My favorites:


any T206 that has a factory designation on the back is by definition, 'authentic'
if it doesn't say 'reprint' on it, then it isn't a reprint
if you have a video on the internet, then you are by definition correct
...
...wait for it...
...
...
...
...
...
...the number one most flawed piece of the 'Scam Cousins' logic...
you can create a real T206 Wagner from a reprint



Well, that last item wasn't exactly an example of 'logic', but I felt like venting.

scmavl
03-04-2022, 08:52 AM
For those that remember this, here is a fun little update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI3mP8xV-KE

(I did a search in case this has already been posted, but didn't see it)

Dead-Ball-Hitter
03-04-2022, 11:06 AM
Pictures of the card are now circulating online, see below:

MVSNYC
03-04-2022, 11:14 AM
The show was interesting. We know this story from many years ago. Unfortunately for Ray, the card is wrong in so many ways. The investigation can start and stop with the large (not accurate to T206) name, team caption.

JustinD
03-04-2022, 11:37 AM
ACA Grading, based in St-Jerome, Quebec, met with the men recently and after examining the card, decided it was an "unreleased version" of the hobby's most famous trading card, issued in 1909 and then recalled after objections by Wagner.

https://everythingisviral.com/wp-content/webp-express/webp-images/uploads/2021/11/How-Infuriating-It-Is.jpg.webp

z28jd
03-04-2022, 11:46 AM
This show was from early 2013, covered here https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=161975

As you can see a few pages back in this post, I have the same reprint card they have and freely shared scans of it at the time. I would not be working right now if that card was real, I would have sold it 20 years ago, and I wouldn't just assume it was fake unless I didn't have 650+ real T206 cards to compare it to. They refused to take expert opinions on the card, as if auction houses wouldn't be beating down their door to sell that card

scmavl
03-04-2022, 02:36 PM
This show was from early 2013, covered here https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=161975


Ah, I searched "Edwards Wagner", but didn't see that come up in my search. Maybe the dash messed me up. Just one of those legendary hobby stories...

philliesfan
03-04-2022, 02:57 PM
I must have been in a coma as I have never seen this story before.

When I saw the scan of the card on the first page, I started laughing.

Bob

Fred
03-04-2022, 03:08 PM
Wow, blast from the past.

joshleon
03-04-2022, 03:30 PM
I watched that entire video and loved it....not for one second did I think it was real...neither did the investigators.

"T206 Earl Gray Portrait with piedmont back"

Misunderestimated
03-04-2022, 09:32 PM
At the beginning of the video it recites as fact the number of T206s produced and the number of T206 Wagners produced. Are these facts known?

(This video was interesting and sad although I kinda knew how it would end).

Mark17
03-04-2022, 10:00 PM
I loved how the card owner, quite uncomfortably, gave his lame excuse why a multi-million dollar card would be graded by someone other than the Big 3.

53toppscollector
03-04-2022, 11:41 PM
I loved how the card owner, quite uncomfortably, gave his lame excuse why a multi-million dollar card would be graded by someone other than the Big 3.

hes been at it for so long. I wonder how he is able to afford all of these shenanigans, unless he is being paid to be humiliated on these shows.

glynparson
03-05-2022, 04:38 AM
Much more closer to the truth is that you would be completely lost without one, as the counterfeit details of many of those cards are not at all clear to the naked eye. With regard to the trimmed cards, many of the most famous dealers prior to TPG in the early '90's carred a loupe with them to shows where they bought raw material in order to check the edges in just the manner I specified, because the cards would indeed measure correctly, and the trimming could not be detected with the human eye. Instead, magnification was required to properly examine the edges and to compare their much sharper appearance against those known to have been factory cuts.

It would clearly seem that you have voluntarily chosen to fall within the category of those befallen by prejudice and/or arrogance, prefering to decide the issue presented on the basis of who these people who own the card are and how different they are from you, when what is really important are the actual facts pertaining to the card itself. You can attempt to rebutt me all you like, but you can't kid yourself about what you really see deep inside you, and you won't change the actual facts about your behavior until you yourself change! Your hostility is only indicative of the truth of the above, which, when you've been brought face to face with it, brings about resentment on your part, and the nastiness comes through. I feel sorrow for your pent-up hatred, which causes you to behave in a manner which you most likely would not prefer, and tends quite strongly to make a complete fool out of you.

Best wishes on a successful metamorphis, becoming a person more willing to objectively consider various sources of actually relevant information, rather than jump to a conclusion based on all the wrong reasons. Remember, my initial post in this thread merely indicated I would like to have more objective information conderning the card itself, rather than people's reactions to the identity of the would-be seller. I did not take any position with regard to the card's validity at all, and most assuredly did not start the nasty comments, but as you have readily seen, am more than capable of defending my position against them.

Larry

And Larry wonders why I think he’s a fool. This is clearly why, next time you see me I’ll know since I couldn’t recall why I thought you were an idiot the last time we talked at a national. You are a moron if you need a loupe to tell that cards bad. Sorry that’s just a fact. Not that anyone who reads your dumb arse posts wouldn’t already know you are a fool. I don’t care what race those gentlemen are only an ignorant clown would defend that card and say something so idiotic like you need a loupe. What ignorance for such a longtime collector.

rjackson44
03-05-2022, 04:43 AM
Probably the most idiotic thing I’ve ever watched😳😳

jingram058
03-05-2022, 04:50 AM
I must have been in a coma as I have never seen this story before.

When I saw the scan of the card on the first page, I started laughing.

Bob

+1 on everything he said

I will just add...5 page thread about probably the fakiest fake card of all time!

rjackson44
03-05-2022, 06:00 AM
+1 on everything he said

I will just add...5 page thread about probably the fakiest fake card of all time!

Agreed you think🥺🥺