This Is A Tragedy

[oldjudge]

I'm a Yankee fan but Francona is a good manager and a class act. Shame on the Red Sox.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19012052

[D. Bergin]

That's ridiculous, though I get the sense Tito wanted out anyways.

Sox always seem to be looking for a scapegoat, whether it's Buckner, Grady Little, Carl Crawford, Francona or Babe Ruth cursing them. You'd think a couple World Series titles would have changed that mentality.

[bbcard1]

He'll probably get stuck with a massive pay raise in a more livable city with more rational fans.

[GrayGhost]

Awful move by the Red Sox. OF course, they always "fire the manager" when things fall apart.

I did just hear from a clip of Curt Schilling, who said there were "camaraderie issues" according to Francona. Course, that's only part of it.

[sycks22]

It had nothing to do with Crawford hitting .240 or Lackey's almost 7.00 era. It was all coaching. What a joke. 2 titles in 8 years and now you're yesterday's trash cuz your team fell a part.

[barrysloate]

Shouldn't topics like these be posted in the watercooler section? We have a forum for sports talk that is hardly ever used.

[Griffins]

He'll probably get stuck with a massive pay raise in a more livable city with more rational fans.

Doubtful, despite the turmoil Mattingly did a good job, and Scoscia's job is safe forever.
;)

[Leon]

Shouldn't topics like these be posted in the watercooler section? We have a forum for sports talk that is hardly ever used.

This is exactly what that section was made for.

[oldjudge]

Barry-you are such an old lady

[barrysloate]

If more posters put threads like this in the watercooler section, it would increase the traffic over there. I like the lounge and sports section, wish there was more going on. Maybe some posters don't even know we have it.

[barrysloate]

Jay- I anticipated that would be your response. Hey, you can't always be popular.

[Runscott]

If more posters put threads like this in the watercooler section, it would increase the traffic over there. I like the lounge and sports section, wish there was more going on. Maybe some posters don't even know we have it.

Hi Barry - hope you are doing well. Since I don't post much, I hesitate to give my opinion, but maybe that fact might give some insight. The guys who use these forums are basically interested in vintage cards, so when a topic like this comes up, it's by vintage card guys, wanting to discuss with other vintage card guys, thus an automatic appropriate audience.

Having said that, other forums avoid this sort of thing by having a button for seeing 'all active topics' in ALL sub-forums. Maybe something like that would help you with your forum thread organization concerns.

[barrysloate]

Hi Scott- I'm fine thank you. I actually spoke with Leon yesterday about this and truth is he disagreed with me a bit. My point was he and the other moderators went to the trouble to expand the board, and add more areas for various discussions. So why not use them? This is hardly worth a major discussion, just a passing thought. If I wanted to post about Terry Francona that's where I would have put it. No big deal. Carry on.

[Leon]

My thoughts, when sub-categorizing the whole forum, was to try to keep like topics together. That way if someone is not interested in something they don't have to wade through it. That being said there are so many features in this forum that I am not sure many more are needed. If everyone will try to think about starting threads in the correct places, before they start them, it will help. If it gets out of hand, I, or another moderator can move them. I realize it's a pipe dream thinking people will think before they start threads. This just isn't a big deal on the BIG-DEAL scale. Happy collecting!!

Barry- great minds think alike...and you are always popular with me!!

[GrayGhost]

Well. ON TOPIC. WEEI is now saying that everyone left w "No comment" and Francona may NOT be officially done. Now, some OFFICIAL Word may come in next couple days.

[Runscott]

This just isn't a big deal on the BIG-DEAL scale.

I have been making the mistake of going to the link that only gives me the two vintage forums (cards and memorabilia); thus, I have been missing everything in the other sub-forums. That's why I mentioned a 'active topics' button that looks for active topics in all sub-forums. I would use it to see new stuff posted in unrelated forums, without having to check out each one. Just a thought.

Now, regarding that BIG-DEAL scale. Could I see a picture? Because everyone knows a word is worth only one-thousandth of a picture, so you've only given us 10/1,000 of the information.

Scott <=== kind of a big deal in his own mind

[barrysloate]

Don't you have a link at the top which reads "Postwar Cards & Watercooler Talk?" That's the one.

[Runscott]

Don't you have a link at the top which reads "Postwar Cards & Watercooler Talk?" That's the one.

Thanks, Barry. I confess to being blind - my manager had to send the same presentation back to me twice this morning for typos.

[barrysloate]

No problem. I really like those forums. We've had good discussions about music and films in the lounge, and good sports talk in the all sports section. I wish it had more activity.

[xdrx]

I'm a Yankee fan but Francona is a good manager and a class act. Shame on the Red Sox.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19012052

I just don't know about Tito. I watched him closely when he managed the Phillies, where he was absolutely unimpressive. Just seemed to be one of the boys with the vets on the squad. That relationship with Schilling seemed to land him in Beantown, and now it seems like relationships with players are shoving him out the door.

Whatever happens happens, but it's far from a tragedy (even by sports standards).

[benchod]

Well whether this topic is in the proper section or not a manager losing his job is hardly a "tragedy".
People who think it is should talk to Andrew and his daughter to get some perspective.

[Ladder7]

He'll probably get stuck with a massive pay raise in a more livable city with more rational fans.

I find my town quite livable (wtf that means) and every member of my family and coworker wants Tito to stay put. Some fans are over the top, everywhere. Now please, get your head out yer butt.

Ps, til the Bs hit the ice, i am permitted to be cranky


Have a nice day, Steve

[thetruthisoutthere]

A Tragedy? Are you serious? I'm a Yankee fan and have much respect for what Francona did for the Red Sox but please, "A tragedy?"

A tragedy is a hard-working man losing job and maybe eventually losing his home. Francona is a millionaire.

A tragedy is the abusing of children, men and women all over the world. A tragedy is the abuse of thousands of poor defenseless animals on a daily basis.

Francona is a millionaire who is able to pay his heating bill every winter.

A tragedy? Show me.

And he'll find another job paying him millions per year.

Poor Terry.

[RichardSimon]

He'll probably get stuck with a massive pay raise in a more livable city with more rational fans.

Boston is a very liveable city,,, great restaurants, surrounded by history, theatre, museums,,,

[tiger8mush]

when the OP said tragedy, i think he means IN PERSPECTIVE of sports. I don't think he is comparing it to real life tragedies.

as much as i hate the red sox, boston is a nice town (though i'd never want to live in it, as its way too busy for me). its certainly no worse than NY -well, except for the fans lol

[thetruthisoutthere]

when the OP said tragedy, i think he means IN PERSPECTIVE of sports. I don't think he is comparing it to real life tragedies.

as much as i hate the red sox, boston is a nice town (though i'd never want to live in it, as its way too busy for me). its certainly no worse than NY -well, except for the fans lol

Shannon Stone's death from falling from the upper deck at a Texas Rangers game this summer is a tragedy.

Terry Francona losing his job with the Red Sox is not a tragedy. There is no "Perspective of sports" using the word "tragedy" when a manager, who has already earned millions of dollars, loses his job.

[calvindog]

Guys, it's baseball. It's a game. I don't think Jay was suggesting that Francona losing his job was a tragedy on the level of someone dying. It's a baseball tragedy. And he's right, it is. Unreal that Francona took the fall for that joke of a team.

[pgellis]

First of all, there has been no official word yet that he is gone. My feeling is that he probably will be gone, but they met today with no news coming out of that meeting.

[Runscott]

I just don't know about Tito. I watched him closely when he managed the Phillies, where he was absolutely unimpressive. Just seemed to be one of the boys with the vets on the squad. That relationship with Schilling seemed to land him in Beantown, and now it seems like relationships with players are shoving him out the door.

Whatever happens happens, but it's far from a tragedy (even by sports standards).

Yeah, those manager/player relationships are kind of important. It's part of winning games, especially when you come to the pressures and fatigue of September. When a team has the hugest September collapse in history, you have to consider the guy who's running things on the field....where the games were lost.

[tbob]

Reports out of Minneapolis that the Red Sox are interested in talking to Ron Gardenhire about the job. As a Twins fan who watched Gardenhire become the worst enabler in MLB, I'd swap Gardy for Francona in a heartbeat although I think Francona will ultimately end up in Chicago with the Sox.

[chaddurbin]

his managing contributed to the collapse...someone's gotta take the fall. i'm on the side of baseball managing is the most overrated when it comes to influencing the success of a team.

[Kenny Cole]

What contributed to the collapse more than the managing was the piss-poor play of pretty much the entire team (except Jacoby Ellsbury) during the entire month of September. The manager doesn't hit, pitch or field. Of course, management can't really fire a player, so the head that rolls is that of someone else. That's the way it is. Theo Epstein made pretty much all of the player decisions, so is he all of a sudden a bad GM too?

[Runscott]

What contributed to the collapse more than the managing was the piss-poor play of pretty much the entire team (except Jacoby Ellsbury) during the entire month of September. The manager doesn't hit, pitch or field. Of course, management can't really fire a player, so the head that rolls is that of someone else. That's the way it is. Theo Epstein made pretty much all of the player decisions, so is he all of a sudden a bad GM too?

I hear this argument a lot, and I don't get it. In your opinion, what is a manager's responsibility, if not to make the right decisions about who is on the field at any given time, and to get the most out of them that he can? Aren't these things a huge part of winning?

I'm not jumping on the 90% of baseball who disagree with me - obviously they are right, I just haven't heard them build a good case that I can agree with.

Haven't any of you had a coach or manager that inspired you to do your best? who showed you that a team was more (or less - see Yankees) than the sum of its parts?

[calvindog]

I hear this argument a lot, and I don't get it. In your opinion, what is a manager's responsibility, if not to make the right decisions about who is on the field at any given time, and to get the most out of them that he can? Aren't these things a huge part of winning?

I'm not jumping on the 90% of baseball who disagree with me - obviously they are right, I just haven't heard them build a good case that I can agree with.

Haven't any of you had a coach or manager that inspired you to do your best? who showed you that a team was more (or less - see Yankees) than the sum of its parts?

Francona won two World Series with a lot of these guys -- for a franchise that hadn't won in 90 years. A lot of injuries and crappy pitching were not his fault. For a guy who won two championships for this franchise he should have been largely immune from criticism.

[thekingofclout]

He'll probably get stuck with a massive pay raise in a more livable city with more rational fans.

+1 And win another title or two!

[Kenny Cole]

Scott.

I agree that a manager's responsibilty is to field the best team and, more importantly, to win. Francona did that for most of the season. Then he didn't. Did he suddenly become a poor manager and make bad decisions at the end of the season? My guess is that he remained pretty well the same and that some (nearly all) of his players tanked at the end of the season.

I would be real interested in your input about what he should have done to reverse a 7-20 September, what decisions he should have made and didn't, and who should have been in the lineup (in order to win) who wasn't. Let me know when you have that all figured out. Then we can talk.

Kenny

[Runscott]

Scott.

I agree that a manager's responsibilty is to field the best team and, more importantly, to win. Francona did that for most of the season. Then he didn't. Did he suddenly become a poor manager and make bad decisions at the end of the season? My guess is that he remained pretty well the same and that some (nearly all) of his players tanked at the end of the season.

I would be real interested in your input about what he should have done to reverse a 7-20 September, what decisions he should have made and didn't, and who should have been in the lineup (in order to win) who wasn't. Let me know when you have that all figured out. Then we can talk.

Kenny

Kenny - we don't really need to talk further on this. If you think a manager's responsibilities end on September 5, that's your right.

[Kenny Cole]

Scott,

Wow, this is like the old days. Did Francona's responsibilities end on 9/5? Obviously no. Did he become a much worse manager on that date? I think the answer to that question is evident as well. Did his players falter after 9/5? I defy you to say no.

There is no question that a manager (or pitching coatch) can impact the result of a game. But can you seriously argue that Francona somehow became a worse manager than he was in the years when he was winning the series? Did he make worse decisons with better players? If you believe that to be the case, please explain because I'm not seeing it.

Kenny

[barrysloate]

On Sunday, September 4, Curb Your Enthusiasm ran an episode starring Bill Buckner and Mookie Wilson, and it parodied Buckner's famous error as he dropped a ball signed by Mookie out an open widow. The next day the Red Sox began their historic collapse.

Call it the curse of Larry David.

[Runscott]

Scott,

Wow, this is like the old days. Did Francona's responsibilities end on 9/5? Obviously no. Did he become a much worse manager on that date? I think the answer to that question is evident as well. Did his players falter after 9/5? I defy you to say no.

There is no question that a manager (or pitching coatch) can impact the result of a game. But can you seriously argue that Francona somehow became a worse manager than he was in the years when he was winning the series? Did he make worse decisons with better players? If you believe that to be the case, please explain because I'm not seeing it.

Kenny

Kenny - in the real world people can have differing opinions and they don't have to have to end up agreeing in the end. But this is the internet, and I realize that all discussions have to end in a virtual dual to prove 'the winner'.

I'm opting out.

[D. Bergin]

As much as I think this is a poor decision by the Sox, I think that it ultimately boils down to the fact Francona didn't really want to stay in Boston.

If he had campaigned to keep his job, I think he'd be there next year.

Maybe if he had a few weeks to really digest the situation, he would have fought it more. Coming so soon after the famous collapse, he probably didn't have the right mind-set, nor did anyone else in the Sox front office.

[calvindog]

Face it, the Sox are no different than the Yankees. Joe T was forced out and so was Francona. Same franchises now.

[carrigansghost]

At least it makes for good conversation over the long winter. I rather enjoyed the pre 2004 days.

Rawn

[Runscott]

As much as I think this is a poor decision by the Sox, I think that it ultimately boils down to the fact Francona didn't really want to stay in Boston.

If he had campaigned to keep his job, I think he'd be there next year.

Maybe if he had a few weeks to really digest the situation, he would have fought it more. Coming so soon after the famous collapse, he probably didn't have the right mind-set, nor did anyone else in the Sox front office.

I think you're right that Francona was ready to leave, but why? When the Red Sox won it all in '04, as a franchise they had a totally different attitude, just because it had been so long. While their payroll was huge, they weren't perceived as being just another group of overpaid superstars, as were the Yankees. Now they are. They are no longer in the same class as the woeful, cuddly Cubs.

It's a different team attitude to deal with now than it was in '04, and different situations require different managerial types. There was a good article in today's paper that described Francona's frustration over the fact that the players weren't a tight group, and he couldn't get more out of them. That is part of managing. None of the 'keep Francona' proponents seem to see this, but at least Francona does.

Sure, it's possible he could come right back next year and win it all for the 3rd time in 9 years. Maybe, as you suggest, he should have taken time off, figured out what he could do differently to make that happen, and lobbied to keep his job. But like you said, he was ready to get out of Boston.

[barrysloate]

I read that Francona has been having trouble communicating with this group of players, and that there were clubhouse problems. Maybe it just boiled down to he didn't want the job any more.

[D. Bergin]

I read somewhere the starting pitching staff was allowed to drink beer in the clubhouse between starts for the last couple years, and it didn't sit right with a lot of the other players.

I like beer as much as the next guy, but when you see how the starting staff imploded during the last month of the season, you wonder if they might have been taking that privilege just a little too far.

:confused:

[Peter_Spaeth]

This Sox fan agrees with the decision.

[sox1903wschamp]

As much as I think this is a poor decision by the Sox, I think that it ultimately boils down to the fact Francona didn't really want to stay in Boston.

If he had campaigned to keep his job, I think he'd be there next year.

Maybe if he had a few weeks to really digest the situation, he would have fought it more. Coming so soon after the famous collapse, he probably didn't have the right mind-set, nor did anyone else in the Sox front office.

This post has merit. When the going got tough, this "entitiled" team could have cared less about the tough getting going (except for Pede). Francona could not get the tough going and that says a lot because Tito is a very good Manager. He lasted 8 years which is a long time in Boston. Longest since Cronin back in the 30's and 40's. He will do well wherever he might land.

[novakjr]

Tragedy? Not a chance...Travesty? Maybe. Disappointing? Definitely. Honestly, there was nothing else Francona could've done. With a 9 game lead in the Wild-Card, Tito made the right decision by sticking with his slumping players. All things considered, if the team were to have any chance of winning the WS, he had to stick with those guys in the hopes that they'd turn it around. That team was built to win it all, and not just simply make the playoffs, and that fact led to the decisions and to what happened. Despite the confidence he showed in those players, and HAD to show, they didn't turn it around. Missing the playoffs under those circumstances was a freak occurrence, that even going into the rain delay, no one could've predicted.

I wouldn't fault Francona at all for what happened, because everything he did, was what he HAD to do in hopes of winning it all..

As an Indians fan, I hope he doesn't end up in Chicago..

[calvindog]

This Sox fan agrees with the decision.

I'm curious why? I didn't follow the team on a day to day as you did.....what did you see that was troubling that didn't exist over the past few years? Just that the players stopped listening to him?

[Runscott]

Tragedy? Not a chance...Travesty? Maybe. Disappointing? Definitely. Honestly, there was nothing else Francona could've done. With a 9 game lead in the Wild-Card, Tito made the right decision by sticking with his slumping players. All things considered, if the team were to have any chance of winning the WS, he had to stick with those guys in the hopes that they'd turn it around. That team was built to win it all, and not just simply make the playoffs, and that fact led to the decisions and to what happened. Despite the confidence he showed in those players, and HAD to show, they didn't turn it around. Missing the playoffs under those circumstances was a freak occurrence, that even going into the rain delay, no one could've predicted.

I wouldn't fault Francona at all for what happened, because everything he did, was what he HAD to do in hopes of winning it all..

As an Indians fan, I hope he doesn't end up in Chicago..

The problem was that they didn't respond to to the confidence he showed in them. Possibly he did everything he could and made no incorrect decisions. It's also probable that during the slump they wouldn't have responded to anyone. Does doing everything correctly mean he's the right man for next year? The players aren't responding to their manager - isn't that important?

Okay, I'm the only one who sees it this way, so I'll bow out. I'm sure Francona will do a great job wherever he ends up next year - he's a very good manager.

[Fred]

Red Sox management just needed to fire somebody to keep the Red Sox nation happy.

I look at managers of teams with high pay rolls as potential scape goats when the team performance does not meet the expectations created by the payroll $$$$. Seriously, does everyone believe that Joe Torre was that great of a manager when he was with the Yanks? Look what happened when he went to the Dodgers... he totally mismanaged the team his last year at the helm. Who the heck bats Matt Kemp in the 7th position? For that fact, who bats him anywhere except 3rd or 4th.... I know, I know... Joe Torre did....

Ooops, now I 've done it... I plead the fifth here... a fifth of Jack made me type this.... go ahead, pile on you bunch of Yankee lovers... (ok, I admit it, I think Jeter is great...)

[carrigansghost]

You had me right up until the Jeter is great line.

Rawn

[YankeeCollector]

I'm a Yankee fan but Francona is a good manager and a class act. Shame on the Red Sox.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19012052

Francona made it really harder to hate the Red Sox as a Yankee fan. He is a class act.

[YankeeCollector]

Red Sox management just needed to fire somebody to keep the Red Sox nation happy.

I look at managers of teams with high pay rolls as potential scape goats when the team performance does not meet the expectations created by the payroll $$$$. Seriously, does everyone believe that Joe Torre was that great of a manager when he was with the Yanks? Look what happened when he went to the Dodgers... he totally mismanaged the team his last year at the helm. Who the heck bats Matt Kemp in the 7th position? For that fact, who bats him anywhere except 3rd or 4th.... I know, I know... Joe Torre did....

Ooops, now I 've done it... I plead the fifth here... a fifth of Jack made me type this.... go ahead, pile on you bunch of Yankee lovers... (ok, I admit it, I think Jeter is great...)

I totally agree on Torre. I thought he was soooo overrated as a manager and the success really went to his head. He mismanaged bullpens every year!

[chaddurbin]

torre certainly ruined jonathan broxton's career with his bullpen mismanagement out here in la...and his insistence on having larry bowa as his watchdog clashed with the younger players and stunted their development (like kemp).

successful managers are mostly about timing and circumstances...francona's perception as a good manager would change whether he goes to kc with a group of talented young guys and stacked farm system or if he ends up in the wasteland that is san diego.

[calvindog]

No one mismanages pitchers like Girardi, no one.

[19cbb]

No one mismanages pitchers like Girardi, no one.

Here's a vote for Dusty Baker :D

[Ladder7]

On Sunday, September 4, Curb Your Enthusiasm ran an episode starring Bill Buckner and Mookie Wilson, and it parodied Buckner's famous error as he dropped a ball signed by Mookie out an open widow. The next day the Red Sox began their historic collapse.

Call it the curse of Larry David.


Damnit. Another 86 freakin years?

Curb, still a great show, but i really miss cheryl hines.

[calvindog]

Here's a vote for Dusty Baker :D

True, Dusty gets confused as well. But no manager -- even during the playoffs -- so consistently finds himself with no pitchers left in the pen by inning 9.

[kkkkandp]

Despite his prior accomplishments, he would have been crucified by the Boston media all winter and spring. And if he got the team off to a slow start next year or even hit a rough patch after getting them off to a good start, he would have been fired.

I am of the opinion that the manager doesn't lose nearly as many games as the players do. Managers don't hit or pitch or field. Can a manager make a bonehead choice here and there? Sure. Did Francona make 72 bonehead calls this year? If he did, they didn't all result in a Boston loss. Case in point - in the last game of the season he put his ace closer in and that big star blew the game.

I think Francona knew the Boston fans are rabid enough that they would have screamed for the Boston administration to take action and he probably felt the Boston administration was already leaning that way. He simply got his answer when they didn't talk him out of leaving. Stupid on the part of Boston administration, but predictable.

[Paul S]

...Same as the old boss.

[U240robert]

I don't think the Boston fans had a problem with Francona- it was the ownership group.
The Fans know who the lousy players were this year and Francona can only do so much. Every so often, no matter how good, a manager needs to move on. I'm a Boston fan and hated seeing him go, but I would've like to see him held players more accountable. He totally backed Lackey all year and he just had the worse starting pitching year in Red Sox history. Sometimes the manager needs to chew out the player(s), not necessary in the press but in some way.

[Jay Wolt]

Any word (or rumour) who is going to replace Francona?

[martyogelvie]

sometimes its just time to go.. besides if he ends up at Wrigley field in a Cubs uniform... :D

[howard38]

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm curious why? I didn't follow the team on a day to day as you did.....what did you see that was troubling that didn't exist over the past few years? Just that the players stopped listening to him?

He lost control of the team and his style wasn't well-suited to this particular collection of prima donnas. I think a more forceful personality would have been more equal to the challenge. I don't "blame" him but I think a change is good at this point.

[Doug]

Here's a vote for Dusty Baker :D

I second that one. Between him and Cordero you need an entire bottle of antacids to sit through a Reds game. Send Dusty to Boston so they can go back to losing for another 86 years and I won't have to hear ESPN spend 98% of their MLB coverage discussing the Red Sox like they're the only team that exists. :mad:

[carrigansghost]

In breaking news from MLB, their are at least 9 teams that will outfit their stadiums with green screens during the off season so that the networks can insert fans into the seats using CGI technology. Please start contraction soon.

Rawn