PA Show - 9/23 - 9/25

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thinking of making the 2-hour trip tomorrow (Sunday). Did anyone attend last night? Going today? How was it?

[Michael Peich]

Hi, Phil,

I went yesterday (Friday) and thought it was better than the last. There are more vintage dealers (Dave Schrader, Wayne Varner, Chris & Kristen Buckler, Roger Burns, John Goodman, etc.) and that was a plus. EVERY auction house is there, and I suppose it's good to see the items in their upcoming auctions.

I picked up a few things (see below), and there was a good selection of vintage cards. It would have been nice to have some other dealers (Ted Z., Dan McKee, Gary Nucherino, etc.), but overall I thought it was worth the trip. (I'd go back today, but we're leaving for a four day get-away.)

The only problem was parking. One level of the Convention Center is being converted to a casino, and parking is restricted to the front of the hotel. You have to enter through the hotel lobby, and then wind your way down seemingly endless halls before arriving at the show.

I hope you enjoy your visit.

Cheers,
Mike

[bcbgcbrcb]

Great info, thanks, Mike. Believe it or not, I usually park by the front of the hotel and make my way through the corridors to the show. There is a good burger place right there as soon as you walk into the hotel lobby.

[Jcfowler6]

Where in PA?

[bcbgcbrcb]

King of Prussia, just outside Philly.

[CharleyBrown]

If anybody is at the show, and finds any of the following:

1950 R423 Jackie Robinson (or full strip that includes Jackie Robinson)
1955 Topps Hocus Focus Jackie Robinson
or any of the 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson cards..

Please let me know!!

[Jcfowler6]

Shoot. To far. I am in eastern Ohio. Hope to see something in Pittsburgh soon. If anyone sees and could grab me a 1912 zeenut Blaine (Kid) Durbin I will be much appreciative.

[tedzan]

I just got back from this show today. Quite a number of dealers with the shiny stuff. Seemed like more booths than usual with Auction stuff on
display. And, considerably less vintage (pre-war) stuff available to buy than in the past.

Nevertheless, I acquired a very interesting and esoteric sports item that I'll post about (with scans), when I get a chance to scan the material.

Also, I got my exercise for the day. I walked about 1/2 mile from my car to the showroom. The entire front and side parking lots are under con-
struction. I feel sorry for the dealers having to make multiple treks tomorrow afternoon in order to pack up.


TED Z.

[Bobsbats]

Just came back from the Valley Forge Show and for the 1st time in a long time, I feel like the show isn't the same anymore. I am not talking about the days of Willow Grove, I am talking about the days of Fort Washington. Although I picked up a great Leslie's Newspaper w/Lajoie on the cover, there just wasn't much "older stuff" unless it was an Auction preview.....I hate to say it, but I don't see that show being there in 3 Years.

[Buythatcard]

Philly is my favorite show. Have been attending everyone over the past few years. Parking always stinks there especially this weekend. But once I'm in the Hotel, I love the show and the hamburgers at Chumleys.

There are always many great vintage card dealers.

Picked up some great cards this weekend but my favorite pickup was this original photo measuring 14" x 11" (Could only scan in a portion of the photo).

[Leon]

Just curious if anyone has any other comments that went to the show? I think if we, as an auction company, have to pick a show in PA,. it might still be the Oaks show. Did this show seem like more of an autograph show or a card show (or both)?

[mordecaibrown]

I went to the Oaks Show in March and have been to the last 3-4 Valley Forge shows (including the one this past weekend). This past Valley Forge show definitely felt like more of a card show and less of an autograph show, the previous shows were the opposite. Oaks show in March felt like a card show with some autograph guests.

I definitely felt that there were more people at this past Valley Forge show compared to Oaks; however, I believe a major reason for this is that the Oaks show is not advertised as well. I live in the area and always see ads for the Valley Forge show and never saw anything concerning the Oaks show (found out through word of mouth from another collector at last minute). Speaking with other collectors who attended both shows - they seemed to enjoy the setting and layout at the Oaks show much better (me included) - more open space, better parking, etc.

Also, after speaking with some dealers, they mentioned that the table costs at the Oaks show were about half the Valley Forge show, so they preferred the Oaks for that reason; however, there just were not as many collectors, so they preferred the Valley Forge show for that reason. Along these lines, I felt the dealers at the Oaks show were much more willing to make deals and I got much better prices at Oaks and I think this is a direct reflection to the amount of overhead put on the dealers by the cost of tables at Valley Forge. Another benefit of the Oaks show for collectors.

I think the Oaks show could really take off and become the number one show in the area - they just need to advertise more and get the collectors in there!

[Leon]

I went to the Oaks Show in March and have been to the last 3-4 Valley Forge shows (including the one this past weekend). This past Valley Forge show definitely felt like more of a card show and less of an autograph show, the previous shows were the opposite. Oaks show in March felt like a card show with some autograph guests.

I definitely felt that there were more people at this past Valley Forge show compared to Oaks; however, I believe a major reason for this is that the Oaks show is not advertised as well. I live in the area and always see ads for the Valley Forge show and never saw anything concerning the Oaks show (found out through word of mouth from another collector at last minute). Speaking with other collectors who attended both shows - they seemed to enjoy the setting and layout at the Oaks show much better (me included) - more open space, better parking, etc.

Also, after speaking with some dealers, they mentioned that the table costs at the Oaks show were about half the Valley Forge show, so they preferred the Oaks for that reason; however, there just were not as many collectors, so they preferred the Valley Forge show for that reason. Along these lines, I felt the dealers at the Oaks show were much more willing to make deals and I got much better prices at Oaks and I think this is a direct reflection to the amount of overhead put on the dealers by the cost of tables at Valley Forge. Another benefit of the Oaks show for collectors.

I think the Oaks show could really take off and become the number one show in the area - they just need to advertise more and get the collectors in there!

Interesting synopsis, Mordecai.....and thanks so much for it. Exactly what I was looking for (and what I had sort of heard through the hobby grapevine too). Scott, my auction partner, and I have not had good luck communicating with the folks at Hunt about this Philly show. At first we were told there were no tables, then 30% or more were empty when I went there (a few years ago) as a regular collector....then they said they would be in touch, and never were.

[Bobsbats]

Leon,

I have been going to the Willow Grovw/Valley Forge show for 30Years+, and for the first time I realized that if the Oaks show keeps going, people will stop attending the Valley Forge show.... It's funny because years ago they had the Willow Grove show (at the G.Washington Motor Lodge) and a show at the Valley Forge G.Washington M.L. . Willow Grove was for cards, Valley Forge was for Autographs. Seems like things may have come full circle.

[Jewish-collector]

I haven't been to this Philly show since it recently moved to Valley Forge. I had been going on a regular basis since the mid 1990's and have even attended a few shows back when it was in the old motor lodge in the 1980's.

It's too bad it has gone downhill. Outside of the National, this had been known as the very best show around. The fact that it moved initially to Reading before its new location didn't help. But, I think a more valid reason for the decline could be that Hunt Auctions is not really a show promoter.

A show has different purposes for the different types of collectors. Some collectors are mainly interested in the in-person autograph signings, so they don't care what dealers are setting up and what they are bringing to sell. There are, of course, the "shiny stuff" collectors, who don't care about the autograph signings nor vintage material. The members of Net54 are, obviously, interested in vintage cards & memorabilia, so again it doesn't matter who is signing.

I think Mr. Hunt has decided that the autograph signings are more important, so therefore a lot of the national dealers have stopped setting up because a lot of collectors of vintage cards were not attending. There may be other reasons, but that's a large part for it. If they truly want it like the old days, they would have to put much less emphasis on the autograph signings to try to get the vintage dealers back.

I plan to attend the Oaks show in November. You need to remember that the Oaks show is the promoter's (CSA/Marco) first time trying something outside of Chantilly (and previous Richmond show some years ago). It depends on what direction Marco wants this one to be. Does he want to concentrate on autographs or does he want it to be more cards & memorabilia ? Perhaps Marco can make this Oaks show more for vintage cards & memorabilia as opposed to autographs like the old Philly show used to be.

I don't see how both shows are going to survive. One will end up as the new "Philly area" show and one will be history. Time will tell.

Alan

[tedzan]

To compare the two original Philly Shows (Willow Grove and Valley Forge) circa 1980's with the current situation in the Valley Forge area is really absurd.

1st.....The hobby was experiencing tremendous growth in the decade of the 1980's. There were shows every weekend in the greater Philly area.

2nd.....Bob Schmierer and Ted Taylor (Willow Grove) were not in competition with Tony Carrafiell and Larry Shane (Valley Forge). Each promoter had their
style of operating very successful shows which interleaved one another throughout the calendar year.

3rd.....I set-up at each of these shows from 1981 till 1992. And, I and most other dealers enjoyed very successful shows. Those were really great times.

4th.....Bob & Ted featured ordinary ballplayers (and a variety of signing guests) at Willow Grove. Tony & Larry specialized in stars (eg., Ted Williams, Joe
DiMaggio, Stan Musial, Ernie Banks, Reggie Jackson, etc.) at Valley Forge. There would be one star on Saturday and another on Sunday. The price for an
autograph ranged from $10 to $25.

The current Valley Forge show has numerous sports figures signing during the weekend. The cost of the autographs ranges from $40 to $200+ each. After
waiting in long lines and spending several 100's of $$$$, many attendees then leave the show. Rather than shopping around the showroom for BB cards (or
whatever).

No way....can anyone compare then (1980's) with now.

Leon.....I would go with Oaks for the very fundamental reason that the majority of the vintage (pre-war) dealers are set-up at the Oaks show.

Now if Marco will do more advertising, the collectors will come.


TED Z

[x2drich2000]

Overall, I agree the philly show has declined since the days of Fort Washington/George Washington, however, I would be hesitant to completely write off the Valley Forge show at the moment.

I was at Valley Forge Friday night, and I honestly went anticipating this to be the last Valley Forge show I would go to. I expected far fewer dealers, limited inventories, and outrages prices. However, I personally found more prewar material that I was interested in than either the last couple Valley Forge shows or the Oaks show.

I think the way we view a show, whether we consider it a good show or not, is based on what we are able to find that fits our own collecting interest and, at least to some degree, that the prices are also what we consider fair. I don't think anyone is going to thrilled about a show in which they leave without getting anything.

In addition, I don't get the argument that the philly show is now an "autograph" show and that is why the show is going downhill or why people are not buying from the dealers. When the show was in Fort Washington, I only remember there being 1 or maybe 2 autograph guests each day. This past weekend there were, if I counted correctly, 23 for the weekend. So there is no question the show now has more autograph guests. However, I never hear anyone comment about the Chantilly Show being an autograph show. Yet, if I counted right, there are 34 guests scheduled for October. And still I consistently hear how good the Chantilly Show is for vintage material and everyone consistently seems excited to go. I don't remember the exact number of autograph guests from the Oaks show, but I do remember it was more than a handful. So, why are we referring to the philly show as being dominated by autographs and that the autographs being the cause for the shows demise but yet this is not mentioned for the other shows? For this reason I don't think you can site the number of autograph guests as being the reason for the decline in the show.

I would say the Oaks show needs a bit of time to mature and see which way it is going, for traffic to increase, and to make all dealers want to switch. I would add based on the first show that there is definitely potential. For the Philly Show, I think Hunt needs to figure out exactly what is wrong and to do something to change it quickly because people already seem to think the show is doomed. At least in my opinion this past show seemed like it was better than the last couple shows, but is far from where it needs to be. In the short term, I think both shows have areas they need to improve. I agree with Alan though that only one of the shows will continue for the long term. How they deal with their issues will I think determine which one will survive. Personally, I think its easier to bring in new customers (Oaks) than to convince unsatisfied customers to return (Valley Forge). With that in mind, I think if you see any improvement in attendance for the November Oaks show, which I think we will, I would lean toward setting up at Oaks.

dj

[docpatlv]

A couple of dealers I spoke with at the Philly show on Friday told me that Hunt's was/is considering making the dealers who set up at the Philly show sign a contract which states they also won't set up at the Oaks show. Seems ridiculous to me as there are only 5 or so show between the two a year and as long as they're not scheduled for the same weekend, I don't know what the issue is. I'm not sure they could even enforce it.

For what it's worth, I've attended almost every Philly show since around 1992 and I can honestly say I don't know if I'll be back to the next one. Oh...who am I kidding I probably will, but only because I have an addiction.

I definitely am looking more forward to the upcoming Oaks show.