PDA

View Full Version : Rookie Cards of Baseball Hall of Famers


Pages : [1] 2

bcbgcbrcb
09-11-2011, 08:24 PM
After a tremendous amount of extensive research, I have come up with the below list as true Rookie Cards of each Baseball Hall of Famer:


Hank Aaron (1954 Topps/Johnston Cookies)
Grover Alexander (1913 National Game/Tom Barker Game)
Roberto Alomar (1988 Donruss)
Walter Alston (1956 Topps)
Sparky Anderson (1959 Topps)
Cap Anson (1887 Buchner)
Luis Aparicio (1956 Topps)
Luke Appling (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Richie Ashburn (1949 Bowman)
Earl Averill (1929-30 R315)

Frank Baker (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips/E90-1)
Dave Bancroft (1916 M101-5/Fleischmann Bakery)
Ernie Banks (1954 Topps)
Al Barlick (1955 Bowman)
Ed Barrow (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Jake Beckley (1888 Old Judge)
Cool Papa Bell (1974 Laughlin)
Johnny Bench (1968 Topps)
Chief Bender (1903 E107)

Yogi Berra (1947 Tip Top Bread/Bond Bread/W602)
Bert Blyleven (1971 Topps)
Wade Boggs (1983 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Jim Bottomley (1923 Maple Crispette)
Lou Boudreau (1941 Double Play)
Roger Bresnahan (1903 W600)
George Brett (1975 Topps)
Lou Brock (1962 Topps)

Dan Brouthers (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Mordecai Brown (1904 Allegheny) - Second Card (1904 W600)
Raymond Brown (1945-46 Caramelo Deportivo)
Willard Brown (1948-49 Toleteros)
Morgan Bulkeley (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Jim Bunning (1957 Topps)
Jesse Burkett (1893 Just So Tobacco) - Second Card (1903 W600)
Roy Campanella (1949 Bowman)

Rod Carew (1967 Topps)
Max Carey (1912 T207)
Steve Carlton (1965 Topps)
Gary Carter (1975 Topps)
Alexander Cartwright (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Orlando Cepeda (1958 Topps)
Henry Chadwick (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)

Frank Chance (1902 W600)
Happy Chandler (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Oscar Charleston (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken)
Jack Chesbro (1902 W600)
Nestor Chylak (1955 Bowman)
Fred Clarke (1902 W600)
John Clarkson (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Four Base Hits)
Roberto Clemente (1955 Topps)
Ty Cobb (1907 W600/1907-09 Wolverine/Dietsche/Taylor/Seamless Steel Tubes Postcards)
Mickey Cochrane (1926 Spalding)

Eddie Collins (1907 W600)
Jimmy Collins (1903 E107)
Earle Combs (1926 Exhibits)
Charles Comiskey (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen/Lone Jack)
Jocko Conlan (1955 Bowman)
Tom Connolly (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Roger Connor (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Andy Cooper (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken/Nacionales)
Stan Coveleski (1920 W520/W522)

Sam Crawford (1902 W600)
Joe Cronin (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Candy Cummings (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Kiki Cuyler (1925 Exhibits)
Ray Dandridge (1945-46 Caramelo Deportivo)
George Davis (1894 N142)
Andre Dawson (1977 Topps)
Leon Day (1949-50 Toleteros)
Dizzy Dean (1933 Goudey/George C Miller/Tatoo Orbit)
Ed Delahanty (1889 Old Judge)

Bill Dickey (1931 W502)
Martin Dihigo (1927-28 Mallorquina) - Second Card (1931 Doble Aguila)
Joe DiMaggio (1936 World Wide Gum/R314/R312)
Larry Doby (1949 Leaf/Bowman)
Bobby Doerr (1937 R314)
Barney Dreyfuss (1910 Tip Top Bread)
Don Drysdale (1957 Topps)
Hugh Duffy (1888 Old Judge)
Leo Durocher (1929-30 4-on-1 Exhibits)

Dennis Eckersley (1976 Topps/Hostess/Kellogg’s/SSPC)
Billy Evans (1922 Exhibits)
Johnny Evers (1903 W600)
Buck Ewing (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Red Faber (1916 M101-5/4)
Bob Feller (1937 R314/OPC/4-on-1 Exhibits)
Rick Ferrell (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits) - Second Card (1933 Goudey/Worch Cigars)
Rollie Fingers (1969 Topps)

Carlton Fisk (1972 Topps)
Elmer Flick (1903 E107)
Whitey Ford (1951 Bowman/Berk Ross)
Rube Foster (1974 Laughlin)
Willie Foster (1927-28 Mallorquina) - Second Card (1974 Laughlin)
Nellie Fox (1951 Bowman)
Jimmy Foxx (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhbits)
Ford Frick (1959 Topps)
Frank Frisch (1920 W519)

Pud Galvin (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Lou Gehrig (1925 Exhibits)
Charlie Gehringer (1926 Exhibits)
Bob Gibson (1959 Topps)
Josh Gibson (1931 Harrison Studios Postcard)
Warren Giles (1956 Topps)
Pat Gillick (1997 Canadian HOF)
Lefty Gomez (1932 US Caramel)
Joe Gordon (1939-46 Salutation Exhibits)

Goose Goslin (1922 E120/W573)
Rich Gossage (1973 Topps)
Frank Grant (1974 Laughlin)
Hank Greenberg (1934 Goudey)
Clark Griffith (1889 Old Judge)
Burleigh Grimes (1921 Exhibits/Oxford Confectionary)
Lefty Grove (1928 Star Player Candy)
Tony Gwynn (1983 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Chick Hafey (1928 Star Player Candy)

Jesse Haines (1921 Exhibits)
Billy Hamilton (1889 Old Judge)
Ned Hanlon (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
William Harridge (1956 Topps)
Bucky Harris (1921 Exhibits)
Gabby Hartnett (1922 E120/W573)
Doug Harvey (1984 Smokey the Bear)
Harry Heilmann (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)

Rickey Henderson (1980 Topps)
Bill Herman (1932 Denby Cigars Postcard)
Whitey Herzog (1957 Topps)
Pete Hill (1909 Cabanas) - Second Card (1910 Punch) - Third Card (1974 Laughlin)
Harry Hooper (1909-11 Colgan’s Chips)
Rogers Hornsby (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Waite Hoyt (1921 E121/Koester Bread)
Cal Hubbard (1955 Bowman)

Carl Hubbell (1929-30 R315)
Miller Huggins (1906 Fan Craze)
William Hulbert (1994 American Archives)
Catfish Hunter (1965 Topps)
Monte Irvin (1948-49 El Indio)
Reggie Jackson (1969 Topps/Milton Bradley)
Travis Jackson (1923 William Paterson)
Fergie Jenkins (1966 Topps)
Hugh Jennings (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)

Ban Johnson (1906 Fan Craze)
Judy Johnson (1974 Laughlin)
Walter Johnson (1908 Rose Company Postcards)
Addie Joss (1903 E107)
Al Kaline (1954 Topps)
Tim Keefe (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Willie Keeler (1902 W600)
George Kell (1947 Tip Top Bread)
Joe Kelley (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)

George Kelly (1920 W520/W522/W516-1)
King Kelly (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen/Four Base Hits/Buchner)
Harmon Killebrew (1955 Topps)
Ralph Kiner (1947 Tip Top Bread/Bond Bread/W602)
Chuck Klein (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhibits)
Bill Klem (1922 Exhibits)
Sandy Koufax (1955 Topps)
Bowie Kuhn (1969 Topps Test Issue)

Nap Lajoie (1902 W600)
Kenesaw Landis (1944-52 Albertype HOF Postcards)
Barry Larkin (1986 Sportflics Rookies)
Tommy LaSorda (1954 Topps)
Tony Lazzeri (1926 Exhibits/Spalding)
Bob Lemon (1947 Van Patrick Postcards)
Buck Leonard (1974 Laughlin)
Fred Lindstrom (1925-31 W590)
Pop Lloyd (1910 Punch) - Second Card (1923-24 Billiken/Tomas Gutierrez)
Ernie Lombardi (1933 Tatoo Orbit)

Al Lopez (1930 Baguer Chocolate)
Ted Lyons (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Connie Mack (1887 Old Judge)
Biz Mackey (1924-25 Aguilitas)
Larry MacPhail (1973-80 TCMA All-Time Greats)
Lee MacPhail (1980-01 Perez Steele HOF Postcards)
Effa Manley (1996 Negro League Playing Cards)
Mickey Mantle (1951 Bowman)
Heinie Manush (1929 R316 Kashin)
Rabbit Maranville (1912 Boston Daily American Postcards)

Juan Marichal (1961 Topps)
Rube Marquard (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips/E90-1)
Ed Mathews (1952 Topps)
Christy Mathewson (1903 E107)
Willie Mays (1951 Bowman)
Bill Mazeroski (1957 Topps)
Joe McCarthy (1909-11 Colgan’s Chips)
Tommy McCarthy (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Willie McCovey (1960 Topps)

Joe McGinnity (1902 W600)
Bill McGowan (1948 Safe-T-Card)
John McGraw (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Bill McKechnie (1912 T207)
Bid McPhee (1888 Old Judge)
Joe Medwick (1933 Worch Cigars)
Jose Mendez (1910 Punch) - Second Card (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales/Billiken)
Johnny Mize (1936 R312)

Paul Molitor (1978 Topps)
Joe Morgan (1965 Topps)
Eddie Murray (1978 Topps/Kellogg’s/Hostess)
Stan Musial (1946 Sears Cardinals Postcard)
Hal Newhouser (1939-46 Salutation Exhibits)
Kid Nichols (1889 Old Judge)

Phil Niekro (1964 Topps)
Hank O'Day (1887 Old Judge)
Walter O'Malley (1988 Rini Postcards)
Jim O'Rourke (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats/H812)
Mel Ott (1929 R316 Kashin/Leader Novelty Company)
Satchell Paige (1949 Leaf/Bowman)
Jim Palmer (1966 Topps)
Herb Pennock (1921-23 National Caramel)
Tony Perez (1965 Topps)
Gaylord Perry (1962 Topps)

Eddie Plank (1902 W600)
Alex Pompez (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Cum Posey (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Kirby Puckett (1984 Fleer Update)
Charles Radbourne (1886 Red Stocking Cigars)
Pee Wee Reese (1941 Double Play/Play Ball)

Jim Rice (1975 Topps)
Sam Rice (1917 Collins McCarthy/Boston Store/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Branch Rickey (1914 Cracker Jack)
Cal Ripken Jr. (1982 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Eppa Rixey (1916 M101-5/4)
Phil Rizzuto (1941 Double Play)
Robin Roberts (1949 Bowman)
Brooks Robinson (1957 Topps)
Frank Robinson (1956 Kahn’s)
Jackie Robinson (1947 Bond Bread)

Wilbert Robinson (1887 Kalamazoo Bats)
Bullet Rogan (1974 Laughlin)
Edd Roush (1915 Cracker Jack)
Red Ruffing (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Jacob Ruppert (1962 Topps)
Amos Rusie (1889 Old Judge)
Babe Ruth (1916 M101-5/4)
Nolan Ryan (1968 Topps)
Ryne Sandberg (1982 Red Lobster)

Ron Santo (1961 Topps)
Louis Santop (1974 Laughlin)
Ray Schalk (1914 Cracker Jack)
Mike Schmidt (1973 Topps)
Red Schoendienst (1946 Sears Cardinals Postcards)
Tom Seaver (1967 Topps)
Frank Selee (1904 Allegheny) - Second Card (1980-01 Perez Steele HOF Postcards)
Joe Sewell (1921-23 National Caramel)
Al Simmons (1923-24 Exhibits)

George Sisler (1916 M101-5/4)
Enos Slaughter (1941 Double Play/W754)
Hilton Smith (1948-49 Toleteros)
Ozzie Smith (1978 Family Fun Center)
Duke Snider (1949 Bowman)
Billy Southworth (1919-21 W514)
Warren Spahn (1947 Tip Top Bread/W602)
Albert Spalding (1888 G & B Chewing Gum) - Second Card (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Tris Speaker (1908-09 Rose Company Postcards)

Willie Stargell (1963 Topps)
Turkey Stearnes (1978 Laughlin)
Casey Stengel (1916 M101-5/Fleischmann Bakery)
Bruce Sutter (1977 Topps)
Mule Suttles (1974 Laughlin)
Don Sutton (1966 Topps)
Ben Taylor (1978 Laughlin)
Bill Terry (1925 Exhibits)

Sam Thompson (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Joe Tinker (1903 W600)
Cristobal Torriente (1923-24 Billiken/Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales)
Pie Traynor (1922 E120/W573)
Dazzy Vance (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Arky Vaughan (1933 Worch Cigars/Goudey)
Bill Veeck (1952 St. Louis Browns Postcards)
Rube Waddell (1902 W600)
Honus Wagner (1902 W600)

Bobby Wallace (1902 W600)
Ed Walsh (1904 W600)
Lloyd Waner (1927 York Caramel)
Paul Waner (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhibits)
John Ward (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Earl Weaver (1969 Topps)
George Weiss (1973-80 TCMA All-Time Greats)
Mickey Welch (1886 N167/H812/N-UNC)
Willie Wells (1974 Laughlin)
Zach Wheat (1909-11 T206)
Deacon White (1887 Buchner)

Sol White (1978 Laughlin)
Hoyt Wilhelm (1952 Topps)
J.L. Wilkinson (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Billy Williams (1961 Topps)
Dick Williams (1952 Topps)
Joe Williams (1974 Laughlin)
Ted Williams (1939 Play Ball/R303A)
Vic Willis (1903 E107)
Hack Wilson (1925 W504)
Jud Wilson (1974 Laughlin)

Dave Winfield (1974 Topps)
George Wright (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Harry Wright (1887 Old Judge)
Early Wynn (1948 Safe-T-Card/Gunther Beer Postcards)
Carl Yastrzemski (1960 Topps)
Tom Yawkey (1959 Ted Williams Set)
Cy Young (1893 Just So Tobacco) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Ross Youngs (1919-21 W514)
Robin Yount (1975 Topps/Hostess)

LATEST HOF INDUCTEES

Craig Biggio (1988 Score Traded/Fleer Update)
Bobby Cox (1967 Topps Venezuelan)
Tom Glavine (1988 Donruss/Fleer/Tops/Score)
Ken Griffey Jr. (1989 Upper Deck/Bowman/Fleer/Donruss)
Randy Johnson (1989 Upper Deck/Topps/Fleer/Donruss/Score)
Tony LaRussa (1964 Topps)

Greg Maddux (1987 Donruss/Leaf)
Pedro Martinez (1991 Upper Deck Final Edition)
Mike Piazza (1992 Bowman)
John Smoltz (1988 Fleer Update)
Frank Thomas (1990 Leaf/Bowman/Topps/Score)
Joe Torre (1962 Topps)


I would love to hear from you guys/gals who know of anything that pre-dates what I have listed. Scans would be really fantastic but a simple description of the item would be great also.

ledsters
09-11-2011, 09:09 PM
Winfield has a Team Issue item from Dean's Photo Service in 1973.

<a href="http://s203.photobucket.com/albums/aa171/ledsters/Padres%20Collection/?action=view&amp;current=1973deanswinfield.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa171/ledsters/Padres%20Collection/1973deanswinfield.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

CharleyBrown
09-11-2011, 09:17 PM
I believe the Dean's issue would be considered a photo instead of a card? Phil has a great site about the earliest collectibles, and he does have the Dean's issue listed already.

Phil, what was the second card (not collectible) of John McGraw (and Cy Young)

novakjr
09-11-2011, 09:22 PM
I'd question the use of the '72 Puerto Rican League sticker for Schmidt. For one, it's a sticker. For two, he's in a PR league uniform..

I'd also question the use of the '73-80 TCMA ATG Postcards for Weiss and MacPhail. Well, maybe not completely for MacPhail. But considering MacPhail was a Series 6 guy('80 maybe?), I'd go out on a limb on the possibility that the Dexter Press may predate it, or at the very least in the same year.. Weiss was series 5. I'd probably go out on the same limb on the possibility that the '76 Shakey's predates it... Again, I'm not all that familiar with the exact release years of the series.

I'd maybe also put some thought into maybe bypassing anything with 1 known example. Mostly because there is really not enough known about them to ascertain their exact origins as possibly prototypes of unreleased issues. Also, they're completely unattainable.

CharleyBrown
09-11-2011, 09:46 PM
David makes a good point about those with only one known example..

Maybe instead of bypassing them, you could keep the 1 known example issues with an asterisk, and then also include the next known sports card?

CharleyBrown
09-11-2011, 10:47 PM
BTW Phil,

Thanks for compiling this list!!

ledsters
09-12-2011, 12:59 AM
I believe the Dean's issue would be considered a photo instead of a card? Phil has a great site about the earliest collectibles, and he does have the Dean's issue listed already.


The 1973 Issue was given away the same way the 1978 Family Fun Center card of Ozzie Smith was at the stadium...so maybe you can't consider that Ozzie card his rookie (although I believe it is). Just because the 1973 Winfield card does not have stats or writing on the back, does not make it not a card. It is just a larger card on thin paper stock. There are plenty of blank-backed, thin paper-stock cards out there. I would consider the 1973 Winfield his true rookie card...but that is just my opinion.

ls7plus
09-12-2011, 02:17 AM
As we've discussed before, there is significant evidence to indicate that the W560 issue was actually released in years subsequent to 1927, that evidence being its inlikely player selection if 1927 had truly been the year of issue. That would leave true rookies of Grove and Foxx to the '26-'29 Exhbits sets, or at least put the latter on a probable par with the former. With the exact date of issue unascertainable for some cards, which is to be deemed "the" rookie may well lie in the eye of the beholder = owner, in this instance.

Good, thought-provoking thread!

Happy collecting as always,

Larry

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 07:07 AM
Good questions, guys.

I am well aware of the Dean's Winfield but have chosen to not include it as the majority of collectors would not consider it a card although it is definitely a Rookie piece. I have basically done the same thing with all team issued photo packs, etc. if you check a lot of the 1940's Rookie Cards, you will see that.

After the 1-of-a-kind cards, the second McGraw card would be his 1902 W600 and the second Young card would be his 1902 W600.

Regarding the Puerto Rican Schmidt, since it was Winter League (not Minor League) and after his Major League debut, I included it as I have done with many Negro League players on the list. The MacPhail and Weiss cards could go either way, it's tough to say so I am going to leave those choices up to the individual collector.

I did include the Family Fun Ozzie as it has just about all the attributes of a card as compared to the Dean's Winfield photo.

The W560 question is a good one, if a corrected date can be pinpointed, I would go back and revise those necessary entries on the list. Keep in mind, that I have researched the Postcard-Back Exhibits and many could not have been issued earlier than 1928 or 1929 based on the uniform styles pictured.

This evening, I will go back and list second cards for those Rookie Cards which have a single unique example known.

Once again, I appreciate all of the input!

leftygrove10
09-12-2011, 07:54 AM
Phil:

Great list! Thank you for putting in the effort and time required to make such a list!

I do have a question: Do you consider the 1921-30 Major League Ball Die-Cuts to be options for your list?

Brad

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 08:00 AM
Brad:

I decided to leave theose out, primarily since collectors were the ones responsible for taking the stickers identifying the players and placing them on generic cut-outs. In general, it is an extremely unpopular set so I decided that it would be better left off. I know that it does have a couple of players like Cronin who would definitely pre-date any of their other cards.

DanP
09-12-2011, 08:00 AM
Winfield has a Team Issue item from Dean's Photo Service in 1973.

I have this photo of Winfield. It is definitely not a card. IMHO

Dan

DanP
09-12-2011, 08:22 AM
Phil, great list. After a quick review I think it is very close to what I have listed.:)

Jesse Burkett - there is only one Just So and it is altered. Normally I would consider it his RC, but since there's not even one legitimate copy out there (according to what appears your definition), I would consider the W600 or Ramly his RC.

I would consider most E107's over the W600 as RC's. Although personally I'd prefer to consider the W600's RC (only because they are cheaper and more obtainable) in reality for most of the W600's (?) they were distributed from 1902-11. At least with the E107's you know what year they were produced. For all you know the W600 you have could have been produced in 1911 (many years after the E107).
I know there are a few that you could pin down exactly what year they were produced. For any that could be proven to be distributed prior to the E107 I would be OK considering their cards a players RC.

I really believe you would be the only collector to consider stickers as acceptable rookie cards (Gossage/Schmidt). :eek: Aren't stickers, you know, stickers?

I thought I read somewhere that the Rose Co Postcards were not produced in 1908? I'll have to check that out.

I comment more later when I get more time.

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 08:32 AM
Thanks, Dan.

Later today, I am going to add the W600 of Burkett next to the Just So. Although the original card was severely trimmed and then rebacked by a collector, the core of the original card still remains so I am going to keep it on my list.

Regrading the E107's and W600's, exactly as you said, I am only listing W600's as Rookie Cards over E107's if a definitive 1902 issue date for that player has been determined. Otherwise, I have gone with the E107.

According to Kevin Struss, who has done extensive research of the Rose Company postcards as well as the Novelty Cutlery postcards, some Roses were issued in 1908 as well as 1909 so those issue dates are believed to be correct.

On the Puerto Rican League stickers, since they are about the same size as standard cards and have player bios on the back, I have chosen to include them. Out of curiosity one time, I tried to peel the "sticker" from the backing and found it impossible to do without harming the piece. I know that an album was issued in 1972 and some were peeled and stuck in there, which probably worked when the glue was fresh.

Leon
09-12-2011, 08:49 AM
Hey Phil
That is a great list you put out. You have done a nice job of giving justification to each decision too. That being said, if I were still a rookie card collector, and there were unique rookie cards of some players, I would still count them. It's sort of like saying you completed T206 .....but don't have Wags as he costs too much. If there is a at least "one" of a card, imo, it has to be counted. Now, you could do a caveat and accept the 2nd card, but it would have to have the dreaded asterisk imo..And lastly, I am quite sure there is no absolute definition of what a baseball card is so, if I were doing the list, I would be rather lenient on obscure card-like issues. Some photos can almost be both a card and a photo. Kind of like a photo-card. I have quite a few in my collection as type cards. Good thread!!

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 08:58 AM
Thanks, Leon.

That's exactly what I am going to do later today. I am going to add second cards for those players with uniquely-known Rookie Card examples and clearly identify them as such, leaving it up to the collector's choice, but at least they know where they stand.

The photo-type cards are certainly a gray area and I will have to consider them on a case-by-case basis.

MilBraves
09-12-2011, 09:18 AM
1954 Johnston cookies Hank Aaron is a true rookie card as well. I've read it was released before the Topps. Not sure if that is 100% accurate. Anyone else see anything about it?

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 11:00 AM
Scott:

You are correct about the Johnston card (not sure about the release date being before Topps). I debated whether to include it as it was a regional set but I will go ahead and add it since you brought it up.

rdixon1208
09-12-2011, 12:59 PM
Thanks for the list. My only comment is that a sticker isn't a card in my opinion. If it is, what happens after it's peeled and stuck to something else. Is it still a card then?

DanP
09-12-2011, 01:39 PM
Phil, BTW ... I don't think anyone could have put a list together that would have less questions, issues as you did. NICE JOB!

I was wondering, why:

Dan Brouthers (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)

but

Cap Anson (1887 Buchner)??? Why not A&G or OJ? I realize that were 88-90 but wouldn't that have been true for Brouthers also?

Still don't agree on the stickers but I guess it could be argued that cards are stickers also if you put glue on their back. I would definitely also list their mainstream issue, but it's your list.

As far as the W600's, are you saying you are only listing them ahead of the E107's if it is certain the card was issued prior to the E107? For example, the player changed teams in 1903 so the W600 had to be from 1902? If that's the case I agree. If the player was on the same team from 1902-11 and the card is listed ahead of the E107 I don't agree since odds are the card was from after 1903. I would at least list both in that example. However, once again, it's your list.

Take care,

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 02:11 PM
Well, the concensus appears to be that the stickers should not count as Rookie Cards and there are only two of them in question so I am going to go with the traditionally accepted Rookie Cards for those two and make the updates now.

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 02:19 PM
Dan:

Regarding your W600's question, the font of print on the cabinet cards was distinctly different for those issued in 1902 as opposed to later versions (I have used Jerry Spillman's OldCardboard article to differentiate them myself). Thus, those which have been positively identified as 1902 have taken precedence over the E107's on my list for those specific players. If anything later was in question, I went with the E107's as their 1903 date is much more definitive.

On Brouthers vs. Anson, the 19th Century experts have informed me that the Allen & Ginters were definitely not an 1887 issue but most likely 1888. I have also been told by the Old Judge experts that there was no Anson N172 card issued in 1887, only 1888. So that is why I have the Buchner as Anson's only Rookie Card from 1887 while Brouthers had three different Rookie Cards which were in fact all issued in 1887.

Bicem
09-12-2011, 02:22 PM
Team cards don't count? :confused:

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 02:27 PM
No, Jeff, no team cards were included. The largest amount of players on any card was the 4-on-1 Exhibits as well as some of the Topps prospect cards of the '60's & '70's.

Bicem
09-12-2011, 03:03 PM
why not? just curious as to your justification why a card with 4 players would be ok but not one with say 12.

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 03:28 PM
Jeff:

The main reason for my not including team cards is to eliminate the inevitable comparison from people to something like a 1967 Topps New York Mets team card with Nolan Ryan pictured so small that you cannot even make him out. People will agrue that if 12 is okay why not 20 or whatever number happens to be pictured?

In addition, I have been told by collectors many times that they do not count team cards as Rookie Cards as there are numerous pre-war team photo postcards that would then enter the equation.

Bicem
09-12-2011, 03:35 PM
gotcha. In my opinion, if you can definitively id a player on a team card, then it should count. But that's just my thoughts, I can see your way of thinking too.

glchen
09-12-2011, 03:53 PM
How about the 1920 Peggy Popcorn for Dazzy Vance: Link (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=91576). Not sure if the debate about the dating of the cards or picture on the card was cleared up.

rhettyeakley
09-12-2011, 04:13 PM
The "stickers are not cards" thing is silly! People get so freaking wierd about the whole "what is a card" thing. It was distributed with the intent of being collected and the stickers are even roughly "traditional card" sized. Such a silly argument...maybe T3's shouldn't be cards because they are roughly the same size as the Dean's card above (both the same size, they depict baseball players, have advertising on them, and were distributed with the intent of being collected by people...how are they different again?). Caramelo Deportivo cards were meant to be stuck into an album so they are basically stickers, too... better take them off the list! Why be so exclusionary? There exists a collectible item of Mike Schmidt that predates his first Topps card so why would it not be on the list because there is some adhesive on the back? There are many items cataloged in the CARD CATALOG that are fairly large (R309-2, T3's, R311, etc.) I don't really understand why today we get so caught up on the little dstails of what a "card" is.

Some would have you believe that if it isn't between the size of T206 and a Topps Tall-Boy than it isn't a "card" (No exhibits, no postcards, no premiums of any kind like R313, R314, etc.). Also it can't be round (no E254, E270, E286, Dixie Lids, etc.). It can't be too small (no Baguer Chocolates, R423, etc.). It can't be a part of a box (no J=K, E271, Orange Borders, Wheaties cards, etc.). It can't have sticky stuff on back (no "stickers", Topps test issues, etc.). It can't be made of anything other than traditional paper (no coins, pins, Salada, Topps Plaks, etc.). It can't be part of a deck of "game" cards (no Tom Barker, Walter Mails, Allegheny, etc.). and this is the first time I've seen it, but now it can't be one-of-a-kind because you know those don't "really" exist do they? (no Allegheny, 1921 Herpolsheimers, etc., etc.).

If you are cool with collecting Only Topps, Bowman, and maybe some T206's then those are great rules BUT if you want to collect the earliest known CARD (insert the most liberal interpretation of "card") then that is a list that would be of some use to the collecting world.

-Rhett

Bicem
09-12-2011, 04:24 PM
well said Rhett.

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 04:36 PM
Very good points, Rhett.

benjulmag
09-12-2011, 04:37 PM
Thanks, Leon.

The photo-type cards are certainly a gray area and I will have to consider them on a case-by-case basis.

There is a cabinet of Anson from 1874 that depicts him on the Philadelphia club, his second professional team. Unlike a lot of other studio cabinets, this one was from a team photo shoot, as the entire team is depicted in individual cabinets. I think that is a better choice for Anson's rookie card then the Buchner Gold Coin, which besides being issued late in his career, depicts an image more generic in nature than an actual depiction of Anson.

EDITED to add that while there is one known copy of the Anson card, some of the other cards from the "set" have more than one known copy. The Anson image is well known, being depicted on a popular composite woodcut of the 1874 Philadephia team.

DanP
09-12-2011, 05:28 PM
Dan:

Regarding your W600's question, the font of print on the cabinet cards was distinctly different for those issued in 1902 as opposed to later versions (I have used Jerry Spillman's OldCardboard article to differentiate them myself). Thus, those which have been positively identified as 1902 have taken precedence over the E107's on my list for those specific players. If anything later was in question, I went with the E107's as their 1903 date is much more definitive.

On Brouthers vs. Anson, the 19th Century experts have informed me that the Allen & Ginters were definitely not an 1887 issue but most likely 1888. I have also been told by the Old Judge experts that there was no Anson N172 card issued in 1887, only 1888. So that is why I have the Buchner as Anson's only Rookie Card from 1887 while Brouthers had three different Rookie Cards which were in fact all issued in 1887.

Wow... great information. Thanks!

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 05:30 PM
Corey:

Thanks for the input on Anson. I made a conscious decision not to include photography studio cabinets or cdv's of individual players as they were most likely produced for the players themselves and not meant to be distributed or produced in any quantities nationally as cards would have been. There are many 19th Century players that fall into this category including Young, Keeler, Thompson, Wright, etc. and many of them also had other teammates produced at the same time like Anson.

Of course, each collector can decide to go with the earlier studio card or cdv and that might very well make for a more interesting collection (personally I am a big fan of going that route).

DanP
09-12-2011, 05:40 PM
Rick Ferrell (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
RC?

Not for me. I'd prefer to have the players name spelled correctly and of course the player on the card be that of the player :confused:. I have this card (actually two of them) but still call his 33 Goudey his RC.

DanP
09-12-2011, 05:45 PM
The "stickers are not cards" thing is silly! People get so freaking wierd about the whole "what is a card" thing. It was distributed with the intent of being collected and the stickers are even roughly "traditional card" sized. Such a silly argument...maybe T3's shouldn't be cards because they are roughly the same size as the Dean's card above (both the same size, they depict baseball players, have advertising on them, and were distributed with the intent of being collected by people...how are they different again?). Caramelo Deportivo cards were meant to be stuck into an album so they are basically stickers, too... better take them off the list! Why be so exclusionary? There exists a collectible item of Mike Schmidt that predates his first Topps card so why would it not be on the list because there is some adhesive on the back? There are many items cataloged in the CARD CATALOG that are fairly large (R309-2, T3's, R311, etc.) I don't really understand why today we get so caught up on the little dstails of what a "card" is.

Some would have you believe that if it isn't between the size of T206 and a Topps Tall-Boy than it isn't a "card" (No exhibits, no postcards, no premiums of any kind like R313, R314, etc.). Also it can't be round (no E254, E270, E286, Dixie Lids, etc.). It can't be too small (no Baguer Chocolates, R423, etc.). It can't be a part of a box (no J=K, E271, Orange Borders, Wheaties cards, etc.). It can't have sticky stuff on back (no "stickers", Topps test issues, etc.). It can't be made of anything other than traditional paper (no coins, pins, Salada, Topps Plaks, etc.). It can't be part of a deck of "game" cards (no Tom Barker, Walter Mails, Allegheny, etc.). and this is the first time I've seen it, but now it can't be one-of-a-kind because you know those don't "really" exist do they? (no Allegheny, 1921 Herpolsheimers, etc., etc.).

If you are cool with collecting Only Topps, Bowman, and maybe some T206's then those are great rules BUT if you want to collect the earliest known CARD (insert the most liberal interpretation of "card") then that is a list that would be of some use to the collecting world.

-Rhett

I don't agree with everything, but well said.

Baseball Rarities
09-12-2011, 05:45 PM
Phil - Thanks for all of the effort. I really enjoyed looking over the list.

FYI, The W600 cabinet card of Mathewson was not made available by The Sporting Life until January 31, 1903.

benjulmag
09-12-2011, 05:52 PM
Corey:

Thanks for the input on Anson. I made a conscious decision not to include photography studio cabinets or cdv's of individual players as they were most likely produced for the players themselves and not meant to be distributed or produced in any quantities nationally as cards would have been. There are many 19th Century players that fall into this category including Young, Keeler, Thompson, Wright, etc. and many of them also had other teammates produced at the same time like Anson.

Of course, each collector can decide to go with the earlier studio card or cdv and that might very well make for a more interesting collection (personally I am a big fan of going that route).

Phil,

Thanks for the response and thanks too for the effort to compile such a list. I understand the rationale for your decision, and there is certainly something to be said for compiling a list based on a more public distribution, which gives collectors a more realistic shot of acquiring the cards.

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 06:07 PM
Thanks for the input, Kevin. I will go ahead and update the Mathewson listing.

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 06:13 PM
I have now gone back and added second cards for those players with Rookie Cards deemed to be unique (one, Pete Hill, even required a third card to be added)

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 06:24 PM
Gary:

Very good inquiry on the Vance card. I have gone back and reviewed the Net 54 thread that you provided the link to. There is a lot of uncertainty there with regards to year of issue, Major or Minor League, etc. so I am going to hold off on including that one unless it becomes more definitively catalogued in the future.

JMANOS
09-12-2011, 07:24 PM
Nice research and thanks for sharing...

DanP
09-12-2011, 08:04 PM
Rabbit Maranville (1912 Boston Daily American Postcards)
I don't believe this card produced in 1912, it doesn't seem possible (see the N54 thread).

Fred Lindstrom (1925-31 W590)
I have this card (thanks to you). However, since it was issued over six years how do I know the card I have was issued before his 1926 Exhibits?

Lefty Gomez (1932 US Caramel)
I thought US Caramel cards were issued in 1933 (can't remember where I read that, could be wrong)

Kid Nichols (1889 Old Judge)
Isn't this his Pre-rookie card? Although because his 1st major league card is six years away I may also agree calling this card is RC.

Rogers Hornsby (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit)
So glad you didn't go with the W-UNC card as his RC. Nice job.

Once again, great job!

Thanks

MacDice
09-12-2011, 09:43 PM
Wouldn't the 1939 Michigan Sportservice be considered Newhouser's rookie?

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 10:28 PM
It has been pretty reliably determined that the Michigan Newhouser does not exist although it is checklisted in the SCBC. No one has ever seen one.

bcbgcbrcb
09-12-2011, 10:37 PM
More good insight, Dan.

The date of issue of the Maranville postcard has been questioned before. The uniform style pictured is 1912 but could have been issued up to 1914 (Boston's championship season). This would still make it a Rookie Card but would also open the door for his Cracker Jack and Polo Grounds cards as well. I have chosen to go with the postcard for now.

Regarding Lindstrom, there really is no way of pinning down the exact year of issue so I have gone with the premise that it could have been 1925, thus the Rookie Card status.

For Nichols, although he is pictured in a Minor League uniform, I have chosen to include his Old Judge card because, by and large, it was a Major League card issue.

On Gomez, I have also heard that the US Caramels were likely a 1933 issue, not sure on that one. If so, then his '33 Goudey would also qualify for Rookie Card status.

ValKehl
09-14-2011, 11:51 PM
Phil - For those players for which you have listed the 1917 Collins McCarthy/Boston Store/Standard Biscuit cards, should not the 1917 Weil Baking card also be included?
Val

bcbgcbrcb
09-15-2011, 06:40 AM
Val:

Thanks for the input. Yes, Weil Baking would qualify as well. Similar to the M101-5/4's with the different advertising backs, I just listed the more common advertising rather than every one. I have now gone back and added the Weil Baking version as well.

DanP
09-15-2011, 06:59 AM
Phil,

I have to mention one more time, you can't possible have this card as Ferrell's only RC since he's not even on the card, could you?

Rick Ferrell (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)

Why not at least offer his 33 Goudey as a 2nd card?

BTW, I'm not objecting because I don't have the Exhibits card just because it doesn't seem right.

I was thinking about a hunger strike until you made the change, but I guess I'll let it go after this final objection!

Thanks

Matt
09-15-2011, 08:22 AM
You're including W600s, stickers and cabinets, but not M101-1s?

novakjr
09-15-2011, 11:52 AM
Phil,

I have to mention one more time, you can't possible have this card as Ferrell's only RC since he's not even on the card, could you?

Rick Ferrell (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)

Why not at least offer his 33 Goudey as a 2nd card?

BTW, I'm not objecting because I don't have the Exhibits card just because it doesn't seem right.

I was thinking about a hunger strike until you made the change, but I guess I'll let it go after this final objection!

Thanks
To me, the Exhibit is his "true rookie". BUT I'm perfectly satisfied having the '33 Goudey and considering it "a rookie". I don't really have all that much of an interest in the Exhibit, but at some point my opinion may change. Basically '33 is perfectly acceptable to many. I think we need a list of "latest acceptable rookie cards" as a counterpart to the "true rookie card" and the "earliest collectible" lists.

bcbgcbrcb
09-15-2011, 12:40 PM
Matt:

Based on the overwhelming response, I have already removed the two stickers and I have previously mentioned why no studio cabinet cards were included (not sure if you are referring to the N142 Davis, which was part of a nationaolly distributed set). Same thing with the W600's, they were also part of a nationally distributed set and although they are larger than typical trading cards, their obvious function was to be collected as specified by the issuer.

The M101-1's are just way too large and although they were also issued with the intent to be collected and were a nationally distributed series, I think you would have a very hard time finding many serious collectors who would classify them as cards. This in no way prevents them from Rookie status just not Rookie Cards.

bcbgcbrcb
09-15-2011, 12:44 PM
Dan:

I know that we have agreed to disagree in the past on the Ferrell RC. I guess it is a good thing that his is the only one that falls into this category amongst HOF Rookie Cards. Since this is a unique situation, I am going to add his '33 Goudey & Worch Cigars to my listing and mark them as Second Cards. BTW Ferrell is misrepresented once again on his 1933 4-on-1 Exhibits as well so I won't bother listing that one.

Matt
09-15-2011, 05:02 PM
Matt:

Based on the overwhelming response, I have already removed the two stickers and I have previously mentioned why no studio cabinet cards were included (not sure if you are referring to the N142 Davis, which was part of a nationaolly distributed set). Same thing with the W600's, they were also part of a nationally distributed set and although they are larger than typical trading cards, their obvious function was to be collected as specified by the issuer.

The M101-1's are just way too large and although they were also issued with the intent to be collected and were a nationally distributed series, I think you would have a very hard time finding many serious collectors who would classify them as cards. This in no way prevents them from Rookie status just not Rookie Cards.

Would you count T3s? It seems the size thing is a bit arbitrary - W600s are in, I imagine T3s would be in as well, but M101-1s are 'way too large' to be considered.

bcbgcbrcb
09-15-2011, 09:22 PM
Matt:

I would say that T3's are similar to W600's and would be included, although there aren't any that qualify as Rookie Cards. Part of it too is the thicker paper stock of the T3's, W600's, N142's, etc. as compared to the thin paper of the M101-1's, which are really premiums or supplements as opposed to cards.

Personally, I would love to call the M101-1's Rookie Cards as I have close to a dozen that would qualify as Rookies but I also am aware of the general concensus that they should not be classified as cards.

Danny Smith
09-17-2011, 06:49 PM
Great list. Thank you for the work. This is one of the most informarive and enjoyable threads ive read on here in a while.

DanP
09-19-2011, 11:50 AM
Phil,

Was it discussed already why:
Lefty Grove (1927 W560)

and not Left Grove (1926-29 PC Exhibits)?

same question for Jimmy Foxx?

Thanks
Dan

bcbgcbrcb
09-19-2011, 01:08 PM
Dan:

I don't think that it has been mentioned yet. Based on the research that I did on the uniforms worn in the Exhibit photos, they would have to have been produced after 1927.

DanP
09-19-2011, 02:36 PM
Dan:

I don't think that it has been mentioned yet. Based on the research that I did on the uniforms worn in the Exhibit photos, they would have to have been produced after 1927.

Phil,

I haven't see anywhere that the 26-29 Exhibits were issued later than 1926 before. FYI. There's probably just a good a chance that the W560's were issued in 1929 or later:

Check the thread "List of sets with incorrect years recorded.." that I started back in April.

From George (Abothebear):
The W560s have been discussed here as being catalogued incorrectly. It can't be a 1927 set, and is probably a 1929 issue (or later?). Is that that the kind thing you are looking for?
Then from Larry (ls7plus):
I agree with George. The W560 set contains Foxx, which would seem highly unlikely absent some psychic prowess on the part of the manufacturer, as Jimmie's first year of any note at all would have been 1928 (.328, 13 HR's in 400 at bats), with his first real Foxx-type year occurring in 1929 (.354, 33 HR's). 1929 at the absolute earliest.
The from Rhett:
-W560 is 1929 at the earliest (see recent thread) as there are players within that were first with that team in 1929.

bcbgcbrcb
09-19-2011, 08:31 PM
Dan:

I have not found anything definitive yet regarding the W560 set being issued later than 1927, all of the grading companies and card catalogues still have it listed as a 1927 set. That may not be correct or it could be a multi-year issue or one with updates made at a later point in time to explain some of the team changes, etc.

In general, I try to stay away from speculating on possible issue date discrepancies of every vintage baseball card set as you can begin to question just about every set ever produced if you look into it hard enough.

DanP
09-19-2011, 09:21 PM
Not that it matters to me, but sorry, that doesn't make sense. It's your list and you can make whatever rules you want but you researched and determined that 1926-29 Exhibits could not have been issued until 1929 based on uniforms (I haven't heard anything regarding any of the N54 experts agreeing).

Rhett (and two others) did research and determined that the W560's could not have been produced until at least 1929. Not trying to cause trouble, but when Rhett speaks I listen.

Not blaming you, but this is a perfect example of why many collectors don't want to get involved in pre-war HOF RC collecting.

I guess I'd have to make my own list to get this right (lol). Both cards should be listed as acceptable RC's based on what I'm hearing. Understand this doesn't affect my personal collection since I have both cards for both players. I'd just like to get the list as consistent and accurate as possible.

No hunger strike threat this time!

Thanks for listening.

bcbgcbrcb
09-19-2011, 09:33 PM
Although the postcard-back exhibits were produced over several years, the Foxx and Grove examples in question could not have been produced until after 1927 based on the uniforms, since these are large-size cards it is possibe to make that determination without needing Net 54 experts to agree with me.

I am not necessarily doubting that the W560 series was produced later than 1927 but am not sure what the exact date is.

novakjr
09-19-2011, 09:40 PM
Not that it matters to me, but sorry, that doesn't make sense. It's your list and you can make whatever rules you want but you researched and determined that 1926-29 Exhibits could not have been issued until 1929 based on uniforms (I haven't heard anything regarding any of the N54 experts agreeing).

Rhett (and two others) did research and determined that the W560's could not have been produced until at least 1929. Not trying to cause trouble, but when Rhett speaks I listen.

Not blaming you, but this is a perfect example of why many collectors don't want to get involved in pre-war HOF RC collecting.

I guess I'd have to make my own list to get this right (lol). Both cards should be listed as acceptable RC's based on what I'm hearing. Understand this doesn't affect my personal collection since I have both cards for both players. I'd just like to get the list as consistent and accurate as possible.

No hunger strike threat this time!

Thanks for listening.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. Things like this are just one more reason we need a list of "latest acceptable rookie cards" to go with these lists.. We've gotta somehow set an industry standard as to what is an acceptable rookie, within reason. That way people aren't running around claiming that 1948 Bowman is Rizzuto's rookie, and '34 Goudey is Ruth and Gehrig's, along with other various ridiculous claims based on loose standards and Beckett..

novakjr
09-19-2011, 09:48 PM
Although the postcard-back exhibits were produced over several years, the Foxx and Grove examples in question could not have been produced until after 1927 based on the uniforms, since these are large-size cards it is possibe to make that determination without needing Net 54 experts to agree with me.

I am not necessarily doubting that the W560 series was produced later than 1927 but am not sure what the exact date is.

I'm gonna side with Phil on this. When there is evidence based on uniforms that a card could not have been produced before a certain year(especially in a multi-year run), then you have to go with it, basing each card individually on it's own characteristics. Whereas, with the w560's, there is evidence to support the fact that they could've been produced over a few years, but nothing to support any claims of a definitive starting point. And apparently '27 came from somewhere, so we gotta trust it until proven otherwise. We could call it 1927-29 w560 for now, but couldn't definitively call it simply 1929 w560...

ls7plus
09-19-2011, 11:43 PM
Although the postcard-back exhibits were produced over several years, the Foxx and Grove examples in question could not have been produced until after 1927 based on the uniforms, since these are large-size cards it is possibe to make that determination without needing Net 54 experts to agree with me.

I am not necessarily doubting that the W560 series was produced later than 1927 but am not sure what the exact date is.

That's a very interesting bit of research, and quite worthy of consideration here. I think that what we'll probably see in terms of $$$ values and various contenders for "rookie" status sometime down the road are significant premiums placed on a number of very early cards of HOF'ers, as some of the very earliest cards of certain HOF'ers are so rare that they may well turn out to be "unobtainium" for all but a very, very small handful of collectors. Kind of like what's happened with the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth versus the M101 major league rookie. Throw a 1917 Collins-McCarthy Ruth in that mix too! If this was one of my appellate briefs, I'd also probably say something like, "in accord, E90-1 Joe Jackson vs T210 Jackson." Regardless of which actually came first, I like the 1926-1929 Grove over the W560 based purely on eye appeal--same with the Foxx. Just my personal preference.

May your collecting be good and the wind be at your back!

Larry

DanP
09-20-2011, 08:59 AM
I'm gonna side with Phil on this. When there is evidence based on uniforms that a card could not have been produced before a certain year(especially in a multi-year run), then you have to go with it, basing each card individually on it's own characteristics. Whereas, with the w560's, there is evidence to support the fact that they could've been produced over a few years, but nothing to support any claims of a definitive starting point. And apparently '27 came from somewhere, so we gotta trust it until proven otherwise. We could call it 1927-29 w560 for now, but couldn't definitively call it simply 1929 w560...

OK, understood. My opinion would be if there was a question, why not list both cards? However, it's Phil's call.

Phil, here is the link to the thread regarding 1932 US Caramel having to be issued in 1933. This would mean that any player that has a 1932 US Caramel as their RC should also have their 1933 Goudey listed as an acceptable RC.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1125497281/last-1125606389/Apparent+dating+error+in+R328+Standard+Catalog+lis %20%20ting

One more question: for the HOF'ers who have 1904 Allegheny listed as their RC, there's a second acceptable RC card listed. Is this because there is only one Allegheny for each HOF'er known to exist?

bcbgcbrcb
09-20-2011, 09:16 AM
Dan:

Yes, the Alleghenys are unique so I listed a second card for those players as per someone's request earlier in this thread.

Listing a second card for the W560's with the set's date in question isn't a bad idea, I will go ahead and work on that today.

The only US Caramel RC is Lefty Gomez so I will go ahead and list his 1933 card(s) as alternative RC's.

Thanks again for your input!

DanP
09-20-2011, 09:58 AM
Dan:

Yes, the Alleghenys are unique so I listed a second card for those players as per someone's request earlier in this thread.

Phil,
Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing (1924 Diaz Cigarettes); I believe there is only one known copy for each player (Mark, RustyWilly has one of them). Similar to the Allegheny RC's shouldn't these two also have a second card listed?


Chic Hafey (1928 Star Player Candy); Only 1 graded (by SGC). I've never seen one, have you? Could we also assume there's only one know copy?

Hack Wilson (1925 W504); Early Wynn (1948 Safe-T-Card/Gunther Beer Postcards): Pop 0 for PSA and SGC; I've never seen one (for any player), can't be many around?
Thanks

novakjr
09-20-2011, 06:30 PM
OK, understood. My opinion would be if there was a question, why not list both cards? However, it's Phil's call.

Phil, here is the link to the thread regarding 1932 US Caramel having to be issued in 1933. This would mean that any player that has a 1932 US Caramel as their RC should also have their 1933 Goudey listed as an acceptable RC.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1125497281/last-1125606389/Apparent+dating+error+in+R328+Standard+Catalog+lis %20%20ting

One more question: for the HOF'ers who have 1904 Allegheny listed as their RC, there's a second acceptable RC card listed. Is this because there is only one Allegheny for each HOF'er known to exist?

I agree about listing both cards. But that's where a list like the one you were working on comes into play. As it not only list the "true" rookie cards, but also "latest acceptable" rookie cards, with everything in between..

novakjr
09-20-2011, 06:34 PM
Phil, is there any chance you could list the 1939 Goudey premium as Joe Gordon's rookie? I just think it would be a little more effective for the list, rather than a multi-year release, especially since they both at least started in the same year.

Also, I know there's ways to date the later exhibit runs, but is there any way to pin down the exact years on the salutations?

Matt
09-20-2011, 07:20 PM
R303A should be listed for Teddy ballgame.

bcbgcbrcb
09-21-2011, 11:40 AM
Matt:

I know that this is a questionable call but I chose not to include those types of paper premiums as "cards", thus omitting them from Rookie Card consideration. The same thing applied to the Joe Gordon - Goudey Premium that David mentioned as well.

David:

I'm not an expert on the dating of the Salutation Exhibits but I believe that you can narrow most down to a more specific range of years but not a definitive issue date.

bcbgcbrcb
09-21-2011, 11:44 AM
More good questions, Dan.

Regarding the Diaz Cigarettes RC's. since there are a number of examples known from this set with multiple copies of their cards, I think that it is safe to assume that they are not unique examples, very tough to find, for sure but likely not unique.

Same thinking would apply to the Star Player Candy issue as well as the couple of others that you mentioned. I have seen the Hack Wilson & Early Wynn, each is very scarce as well but not unique.

Matt
09-21-2011, 01:01 PM
I know that this is a questionable call but I chose not to include those types of paper premiums as "cards", thus omitting them from Rookie Card consideration. The same thing applied to the Joe Gordon - Goudey Premium that David mentioned as well.


You are the first collector I've ever come across that qualifies R314s, R313s and R311s and doesn't qualify R303s, but, as was said above, it's your list.

bcbgcbrcb
09-21-2011, 01:49 PM
Matt:

The R314 & R313 (which I never mentioned on my list) are both postcard sized items. The R311 (which I also never mentioned on my list) is much larger as is the R303A in question. I would not consider either of those to be cards.

terjung
09-21-2011, 03:07 PM
nm

Matt
09-21-2011, 03:49 PM
Matt:

The R314 & R313 (which I never mentioned on my list) are both postcard sized items. The R311 (which I also never mentioned on my list) is much larger as is the R303A in question. I would not consider either of those to be cards.

Actually R303A is not much larger than postcard size. They are 4" x 6-3/16" (even the larger R303Bs are smaller than W600s). Again, it's your list so do as you see fit, but you are the first collector I've met that has made that distinction.

bcbgcbrcb
09-21-2011, 03:57 PM
Matt:

Until I just looked it up today, I did not realize that the R303 A,B & C's were different sizes, the B's & C's are larger and the A's are smaller. Am I correct that the Williams is the only Rookie in the "A" series?

Anyway, I am going to add that one as another option to my Ted Williams listing. Thanks for the insight on it.

I guess that the R312's would be okay then as they are about the same size. I will go ahead and add those in too.

rhettyeakley
09-21-2011, 05:05 PM
Both the dual tone and single toned W560 sets are BOTH 1929 issues at the earliest!

-The dual tones (either red photo on black suit cards, or black on red) were produced first and are a more mixed-subject set (more football, boxing, actors, etc.). Rogers Hornsby is in the set as a member of the Chicago Cubs, a team he was first with in 1929.

-The single tone set was produced after the dual toned set, and many of the non-baseball subjects were eliminated (not all though). This set has as one of the new players added Fred Maguire with the Boston Braves, a team was not with until 1929.

The common denominator in all of this is the 1929, that is the earliest these sets could have been made. We have had this discussion before...
http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=133442&highlight=maguire

I'm not sure there is any debate left about them, were I a rookie card collector I would not be counting these as a 1927 set.

-Rhett

bcbgcbrcb
09-21-2011, 05:20 PM
Thanks for the info, Rhett. I will go back and look at the other options for those three players with W560 Rookie Cards (Foxx, Grove & L. Waner) and see if the W560's still remain as their earliest card, even as a 1929 issue.

Well, Waner has another 1927 card so the W560 has now been removed.

bcbgcbrcb
09-21-2011, 05:59 PM
After doing more research on the Grove and Foxx P/C Back Exhibits, they could have been produced in 1928 or 1929.

For Foxx, that would make the P/C Back Exhibit his primary Rookie Card.

For Grove, his 1928 Star Player Candy would be his primary Rookie Card with the P/C Back Exhibit as another possibility but not as definitively dated.

Based on this info, I will go ahead and update the Foxx and Grove entries.

Maybe Adam W. can provide a definitive date on the Foxx and Grove P/C Back Exhibits.

ls7plus
09-25-2011, 02:13 AM
After doing more research on the Grove and Foxx P/C Back Exhibits, they could have been produced in 1928 or 1929.

For Foxx, that would make the P/C Back Exhibit his primary Rookie Card.

For Grove, his 1928 Star Player Candy would be his primary Rookie Card with the P/C Back Exhibit as another possibility but not as definitively dated.

Based on this info, I will go ahead and update the Foxx and Grove entries.

Maybe Adam W. can provide a definitive date on the Foxx and Grove P/C Back Exhibits.

Agree--Adam would definitely be the guy.

Larry

ls7plus
09-25-2011, 02:20 AM
Matt:

Until I just looked it up today, I did not realize that the R303 A,B & C's were different sizes, the B's & C's are larger and the A's are smaller. Am I correct that the Williams is the only Rookie in the "A" series?

Anyway, I am going to add that one as another option to my Ted Williams listing. Thanks for the insight on it.

I guess that the R312's would be okay then as they are about the same size. I will go ahead and add those in too.

I agree with you guys that the 1939 R303 Williams should definitely be classified as one of his rookies. Would love to have one in any shape, so long as its graded, if anyone has one they are interested in parting with at a reasonable price.

Another card I have always suspected was a Ted Williams rookie was the 1939-46 Exhibits "No. 9 shows." The pop reports would seem to indicate this card may well have been a one year only issue, with presumably a change to the more artistic "#9 not showing" thereafter. Maybe Adam would have some info here as well.

Best regards,

Larry

Exhibitman
09-25-2011, 08:27 AM
I'll take a look and see what I can come up with.

novakjr
12-04-2012, 02:39 PM
Phil. can we add the new additions to this list?

Also, wanted to Bump the topic for any new members..

bcbgcbrcb
12-04-2012, 06:12 PM
Thanks, Dave, just added the new HOF'ers from both 2012 & 2013.

jimivintage
12-04-2012, 06:18 PM
Shouldn't the Posey RC be the 1988 Negro League Stars card....looking back at the original post, Phil? Or is this list updated somewhere else?

bcbgcbrcb
12-04-2012, 06:28 PM
Jimi:

I did not include any team photo cards, that's why the Posey from 1988 is not there.

jimivintage
12-04-2012, 06:34 PM
Gotcha. I've not owned one, and I guess I hadn't realized they were a photo of some sort. They look like cards to me.

PM sent.

Jimi

novakjr
12-04-2012, 06:58 PM
Gotcha. I've not owned one, and I guess I hadn't realized they were a photo of some sort. They look like cards to me.

PM sent.

Jimi

He wasn't saying that it was a photo, he was saying that it was basically a team card...

Personally, I'd count the card since he is singularly named on the bottom of the card, and depicted individually outside of the team picture... Just to note, I don't have the card, but have been looking a while for an affordable one, same with the 1996 playing card of effa manley...

jerrys
12-10-2012, 09:59 AM
Tris Speaker (1908-09 Rose Company Postcards) is listed here as his rookie card. Has anyone ever seen copy of this postcard or know of the existence of one?

JLange
12-10-2012, 08:26 PM
Both Bill Veeck and Satchel Paige appear in the Cleveland Indians team picture pack in 1948. Would you count these? I know these specific cards have been discussed here in a 2011 thread

Jaybird
12-10-2012, 08:45 PM
Tris Speaker (1908-09 Rose Company Postcards) is listed here as his rookie card. Has anyone ever seen copy of this postcard or know of the existence of one?

Interesting that I've seen many threads and places mentioning this card but haven't ever seen one either. Is it a mistake or has someone actually seen it?

mcap100176
12-10-2012, 09:17 PM
http://www.oldcardboard.com/ref/rookies/rookiedetail.asp?id=329

http://www.sgccard.com/pricesrealized/index.php?level=picture&id=614

h2oya311
12-11-2012, 12:17 AM
He wasn't saying that it was a photo, he was saying that it was basically a team card...

Personally, I'd count the card since he is singularly named on the bottom of the card, and depicted individually outside of the team picture... Just to note, I don't have the card, but have been looking a while for an affordable one, same with the 1996 playing card of effa manley...

here's my 1988 Posey - and yes, it's definitely a "card", not a "photo" - and it's shockingly not all that affordable...I've been looking for the 1996 Manley card for a while as well:

bcbgcbrcb
12-11-2012, 06:51 AM
I have never seen a Rose Co. Speaker either. The inclusion of that card in the OldCardboard database is simply because it is checklisted so I assume that it does exist. Michael provided a nice example of the Novelty Cutlery Speaker but not a Rose Co. one.

jerrys
12-11-2012, 11:54 PM
Speaker has been listed on the Std. Catalog of BB Cards Rose Co. Postcard Checklist since the first issue I believe. (Anyone have a first issue?) I thought Bob Lemke might come on and tell how reliable his source was at the time.

You can't prove a negative but I doubt that there is a Rose Co. Speaker postcard.

novakjr
01-16-2013, 11:30 AM
Phil. I can't believe I never noticed this before. Shouldn't Tom Connolly and Barrow have both the "1950-56 Callahan" and the "1953-55 Artvue Type 1" listed?

Considering that they were both Hall of Fame sets, and that Connolly and Barrow were both enshrined in '53, I think it would be safe to breakdown their Callahans even further to "1953-56". This to me would make the Artvue type 1 the primary rookies, since it starts concurrently and the run definitively ends before the Callahans...

bcbgcbrcb
01-16-2013, 08:41 PM
Dave:

You're right, the possible issue dates for Connolly and Barrow are pretty close for both sets. Basically, I chose the Callahan set because the start date was earlier and since both are $10 - $20 cards, I did not spend an inordinate amount of time researching all possibilities.

Compsella
12-31-2014, 01:55 PM
I love this list. Any way you can update with the newbies?

Also, has there been any discussion about the Reccius Cigars Honus Wagner?

bcbgcbrcb
12-31-2014, 02:16 PM
WOW, this one is a blast from the past...........I am no longer doing this collection, maybe the current Net 54 collectors can chime in here...........

As far as the Reccius Wagner, it is my belief that it was produced well after the turn of the century and thus does not qualify as a Wagner rookie card.

Brian Van Horn
12-31-2014, 02:26 PM
Taking the rookie cards on Paul and Lloyd Waner a step further:

Compsella
12-31-2014, 02:33 PM
These would qualify as Minor League issues, which I believe are not considered on this list. Otherwise we'd have other examples for Ruth, DiMaggio, et al.

pawpawdiv9
12-31-2014, 05:01 PM
The 34 Zeenut Joe Dimaggio (batting) is RC, year later Zeenut issue one throwing?
Cal Ripken- should it be the Charlotte O's police card (orange/blue varations)?

BTW- glad i ran across this list as i am doing a run of R/C of major Hofers

1963Topps Set
12-31-2014, 05:21 PM
In regards to the original list that started this thread. What a great piece of research! You have that skill to be an historian, not an easy skill to come by. Thanks for documenting this important history!

Compsella
01-01-2015, 02:40 AM
The 34 Zeenut Joe Dimaggio (batting) is RC, year later Zeenut issue one throwing?
Cal Ripken- should it be the Charlotte O's police card (orange/blue varations)?

BTW- glad i ran across this list as i am doing a run of R/C of major Hofers

In regards to this comment, I believe the original list is not counting Minor League cards. Hence why the Baltimore Ruth is not listed, the Zeenuts, Chong Modesto Rickey Henderson, etc, etc.

bcbgcbrcb
01-01-2015, 06:08 AM
That's correct, the general consensus among rookie card collectors is that minor league cards represent "Pre-Rookie" Cards as opposed to the first Major League "Rookie" Cards.

Joe_G.
01-01-2015, 09:30 AM
These would qualify as Minor League issues, which I believe are not considered on this list. Otherwise we'd have other examples for Ruth, DiMaggio, et al.

This may have already been stated, but if minor league issues are not supposed to be listed then Griffith and Nichols Old Judge cards should be removed. Beckley should also be backed up to 1889 when he was issued a team change card with Pittsburgh.

GehrigFan
01-01-2015, 06:25 PM
Wow, awesome job as usual, Phil! Will you be putting out an updated version of your book? And I wonder if Lyman at Old Cardboard will be updating their list. I do like that they give several options. Some of the later cards make sense, some don't (like a 1954 topps RC with a 1955 Topps listed as another alternative). I thought they credited you with helping them on that list, which is why I ask.

Anyway, one point on photos. Personally, I consider a widespread issued photo with text, facsimile sigs, etc. to be okay as Rookies, because they were issued as collectibles. As opposed to news photos and other photos that were not issued as collectibles or not issued in large quantities. Not sure if that makes sense.

I also am a little confused why some premiums count but others don't based on size. I'm more open on those. But either way on these two things, it is a great list.

Mark

Compsella
01-02-2015, 03:36 PM
This may have already been stated, but if minor league issues are not supposed to be listed then Griffith and Nichols Old Judge cards should be removed. Beckley should also be backed up to 1889 when he was issued a team change card with Pittsburgh.

I believe Beckley, Griffith & Nichols are included because the OJ is a major league "set" even though they are depicted still in their minor league garb.

HRBAKER
01-02-2015, 03:43 PM
That's correct, the general consensus among rookie card collectors is that minor league cards represent "Pre-Rookie" Cards as opposed to the first Major League "Rookie" Cards.

I thought the only consensus when it comes to what is a "Rookie Card" is that there is no consensus. :)

glchen
01-02-2015, 04:01 PM
I love this list. Any way you can update with the newbies?

Also, has there been any discussion about the Reccius Cigars Honus Wagner?

There was a recent thread on the dating of the Reccius Wagner here: Link (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1343867)

bcbgcbrcb
01-02-2015, 04:49 PM
Hey, Mark:

Great to hear from you, hope all is well.

As far as an updated version of my BB HOF RC book, I'm afraid that it will not be happening as I have shifted my focus to Negro League material and have self-published a book on that topic this past year.

Regarding the Old Cardboard website info, it's up to Lyman Hardemann as to updates on the BB HOF RC webpage. Hopefully, that will happen in the near future.

Compsella
01-06-2015, 07:13 PM
Just wanted to update this list, including today's newbies. Parallels like OPC, Canadian Leaf, Glossy and Tiffany are not listed. I know we aren't including Minor League sets, but a pre-minor league shout out to John Smoltz 1985 Big League Cards World Junior Baseball Championships. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on any.



Hank Aaron (1954 Topps/Johnston Cookies)
Grover Alexander (1913 National Game/Tom Barker Game)
Roberto Alomar (1988 Donruss)
Walter Alston (1956 Topps)
Sparky Anderson (1959 Topps)
Cap Anson (1887 Buchner)
Luis Aparicio (1956 Topps)
Luke Appling (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Richie Ashburn (1949 Bowman)
Earl Averill (1929-30 R315)

Frank Baker (1909-11 T206/Colganís Chips/E90-1)
Dave Bancroft (1916 M101-5/Fleischmann Bakery)
Ernie Banks (1954 Topps)
Al Barlick (1955 Bowman)
Ed Barrow (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Jake Beckley (1888 Old Judge)
Cool Papa Bell (1974 Laughlin)
Johnny Bench (1968 Topps)
Chief Bender (1903 E107)
Yogi Berra (1947 Tip Top Bread/Bond Bread/W602)

Craig Biggio (1988 Fleer Update/Score Rookie Traded)
Bert Blyleven (1971 Topps)
Wade Boggs (1983 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Jim Bottomley (1923 Maple Crispette)
Lou Boudreau (1941 Double Play)
Roger Bresnahan (1903 W600)
George Brett (1975 Topps)
Lou Brock (1962 Topps)
Dan Brouthers (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Mordecai Brown (1904 Allegheny) - Second Card (1904 W600)

Raymond Brown (1945-46 Caramelo Deportivo)
Willard Brown (1948-49 Toleteros)
Morgan Bulkeley (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Jim Bunning (1957 Topps)
Jesse Burkett (1893 Just So Tobacco) - Second Card (1903 W600)
Roy Campanella (1949 Bowman)
Rod Carew (1967 Topps)
Max Carey (1912 T207)
Steve Carlton (1965 Topps)
Gary Carter (1975 Topps)

Alexander Cartwright (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Orlando Cepeda (1958 Topps)
Henry Chadwick (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Frank Chance (1902 W600)
Happy Chandler (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Oscar Charleston (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken)
Jack Chesbro (1902 W600)
Nestor Chylak (1955 Bowman)
Fred Clarke (1902 W600)
John Clarkson (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Four Base Hits)

Roberto Clemente (1955 Topps)
Ty Cobb (1907 W600/1907-09 Wolverine/Dietsche/Taylor Postcards)
Mickey Cochrane (1926 Spalding)
Eddie Collins (1907 W600)
Jimmy Collins (1903 E107)
Earle Combs (1926 Exhibits)
Charles Comiskey (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen/Lone Jack)
Jocko Conlan (1955 Bowman)
Tom Connolly (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Roger Connor (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)

Andy Cooper (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken/Nacionales)
Stan Coveleski (1920 W520/W522)
Bobby Cox (1967 Venezuela)
Sam Crawford (1902 W600)
Joe Cronin (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Candy Cummings (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Kiki Cuyler (1925 Exhibits)
Ray Dandridge (1945-46 Caramelo Deportivo)
George Davis (1894 N142)
Andre Dawson (1977 Topps)

Leon Day (1949-50 Toleteros)
Dizzy Dean (1933 Goudey/George C Miller/Tatoo Orbit)
Ed Delahanty (1889 Old Judge)
Bill Dickey (1931 W502)
Martin Dihigo (1927-28 Mallorquina) - Second Card (1931 Doble Aguila)
Joe DiMaggio (1936 World Wide Gum/R314/R312)
Larry Doby (1949 Leaf/Bowman)
Bobby Doerr (1937 R314)
Barney Dreyfuss (1910 Tip Top Bread)
Don Drysdale (1957 Topps)

Hugh Duffy (1888 Old Judge)
Leo Durocher (1929-30 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Dennis Eckersley (1976 Topps/Hostess/Kelloggís/SSPC)
Billy Evans (1922 Exhibits)
Johnny Evers (1903 W600)
Buck Ewing (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Red Faber (1916 M101-5/4)
Bob Feller (1937 R314/OPC/4-on-1 Exhibits)
Rick Ferrell (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits) - Second Card (1933 Goudey/Worch Cigars)
Rollie Fingers (1969 Topps)

Carlton Fisk (1972 Topps)
Elmer Flick (1903 E107)
Whitey Ford (1951 Bowman/Berk Ross)
Rube Foster (1974 Laughlin)
Willie Foster (1927-28 Mallorquina) - Second Card (1974 Laughlin)
Nellie Fox (1951 Bowman)
Jimmy Foxx (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhbits)
Ford Frick (1959 Topps)
Frank Frisch (1920 W519)
Pud Galvin (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)

Lou Gehrig (1925 Exhibits)
Charlie Gehringer (1926 Exhibits)
Bob Gibson (1959 Topps)
Josh Gibson (1950-51 Toleteros)
Warren Giles (1956 Topps)
Pat Gillick (1997 Canadian HOF)
Tom Glavine (1988 Donruss/Fleer/Score/Topps)
Lefty Gomez (1932 US Caramel)
Joe Gordon (1939-46 Salutation Exhibits)
Goose Goslin (1922 E120/W573)

Rich Gossage (1973 Topps)
Frank Grant (1974 Laughlin)
Hank Greenberg (1934 Goudey)
Clark Griffith (1889 Old Judge)
Burleigh Grimes (1921 Exhibits/Oxford Confectionary)
Lefty Grove (1928 Star Player Candy)
Tony Gwynn (1983 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Chick Hafey (1928 Star Player Candy)
Jesse Haines (1921 Exhibits)
Billy Hamilton (1889 Old Judge)

Ned Hanlon (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
William Harridge (1956 Topps)
Bucky Harris (1921 Exhibits)
Gabby Hartnett (1922 E120/W573)
Doug Harvey (1984 Smokey the Bear)
Harry Heilmann (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Rickey Henderson (1980 Topps)
Bill Herman (1932 Denby Cigars Postcard)
Whitey Herzog (1957 Topps)
Pete Hill (1909 Cabanas) - Second Card (1910 Punch) - Third Card (1974 Laughlin)

Harry Hooper (1909-11 Colganís Chips)
Rogers Hornsby (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Waite Hoyt (1921 E121/Koester Bread)
Cal Hubbard (1955 Bowman)
Carl Hubbell (1929-30 R315)
Miller Huggins (1906 Fan Craze)
William Hulbert (1994 American Archives)
Catfish Hunter (1965 Topps)
Monte Irvin (1948-49 El Indio)
Reggie Jackson (1969 Topps/Milton Bradley)

Travis Jackson (1923 William Paterson)
Fergie Jenkins (1966 Topps)
Hugh Jennings (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Ban Johnson (1906 Fan Craze)
Judy Johnson (1974 Laughlin)
Randy Johnson (1989 Donruss/Fleer/Score/Topps/Upper Deck)
Walter Johnson (1908 Rose Company Postcards)
Addie Joss (1903 E107)
Al Kaline (1954 Topps)
Tim Keefe (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)

Willie Keeler (1902 W600)
George Kell (1947 Tip Top Bread)
Joe Kelley (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)
George Kelly (1920 W520/W522/W516-1)
King Kelly (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen/Four Base Hits/Buchner)
Harmon Killebrew (1955 Topps)
Ralph Kiner (1947 Tip Top Bread/Bond Bread/W602)
Chuck Klein (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhibits)
Bill Klem (1922 Exhibits)
Sandy Koufax (1955 Topps)

Bowie Kuhn (1969 Topps Test Issue)
Nap Lajoie (1902 W600)
Kenesaw Landis (1944-52 Albertype HOF Postcards)
Barry Larkin (1986 Sportflics Rookies)
Tony LaRussa (1964 Topps)
Tommy LaSorda (1954 Topps)
Tony Lazzeri (1926 Exhibits/Spalding)
Bob Lemon (1947 Van Patrick Postcards)
Buck Leonard (1974 Laughlin)
Fred Lindstrom (1925-31 W590)

Pop Lloyd (1910 Punch) - Second Card (1923-24 Billiken/Tomas Gutierrez)
Ernie Lombardi (1933 Tatoo Orbit)
Al Lopez (1930 Baguer Chocolate)
Ted Lyons (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Connie Mack (1887 Old Judge)
Biz Mackey (1924-25 Aguilitas)
Larry MacPhail (1973-80 TCMA All-Time Greats)
Lee MacPhail (1980-01 Perez Steele HOF Postcards)
Greg Maddux (1987 David Berg/Donruss)
Effa Manley (1996 Negro League Playing Cards)

Mickey Mantle (1951 Bowman)
Heinie Manush (1929 R316 Kashin)
Rabbit Maranville (1912 Boston Daily American Postcards)
Juan Marichal (1961 Topps)
Rube Marquard (1909-11 T206/Colganís Chips/E90-1)
Pedro Martinez (1991 Classic III/Upper Deck Final Edition)
Ed Mathews (1952 Topps)
Christy Mathewson (1903 E107)
Willie Mays (1951 Bowman)
Bill Mazeroski (1957 Topps)

Joe McCarthy (1909-11 Colganís Chips)
Tommy McCarthy (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Willie McCovey (1960 Topps)
Joe McGinnity (1902 W600)
Bill McGowan (1948 Safe-T-Card)
John McGraw (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Bill McKechnie (1912 T207)
Bid McPhee (1888 Old Judge)
Joe Medwick (1933 Worch Cigars)
Jose Mendez (1910 Punch) - Second Card (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales/Billiken)

Johnny Mize (1936 R312)
Paul Molitor (1978 Topps)
Joe Morgan (1965 Topps)
Eddie Murray (1978 Topps/Kelloggís/Hostess)
Stan Musial (1946 Sears Cardinals Postcard)
Hal Newhouser (1939-46 Salutation Exhibits)
Kid Nichols (1889 Old Judge)
Phil Niekro (1964 Topps)
Hank O'Day (1887 Old Judge)
Walter O'Malley (1988 Rini Postcards)

Jim O'Rourke (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats/H812)
Mel Ott (1929 R316 Kashin/Leader Novelty Company)
Satchell Paige (1949 Leaf/Bowman)
Jim Palmer (1966 Topps)
Herb Pennock (1921-23 National Caramel)
Tony Perez (1965 Topps)
Gaylord Perry (1962 Topps)
Eddie Plank (1902 W600)
Alex Pompez (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Cum Posey (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)

Kirby Puckett (1984 Fleer Update)
Charles Radbourne (1886 Red Stocking Cigars)
Pee Wee Reese (1941 Double Play/Play Ball)
Jim Rice (1975 Topps)
Sam Rice (1917 Collins McCarthy/Boston Store/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Branch Rickey (1914 Cracker Jack)
Cal Ripken Jr. (1982 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Eppa Rixey (1916 M101-5/4)
Phil Rizzuto (1941 Double Play)
Robin Roberts (1949 Bowman)

Brooks Robinson (1957 Topps)
Frank Robinson (1956 Kahnís)
Jackie Robinson (1947 Bond Bread)
Wilbert Robinson (1887 Kalamazoo Bats)
Bullet Rogan (1974 Laughlin)
Edd Roush (1915 Cracker Jack)
Red Ruffing (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Jacob Ruppert (1962 Topps)
Amos Rusie (1889 Old Judge)
Babe Ruth (1916 M101-5/4)

Nolan Ryan (1968 Topps)
Ryne Sandberg (1982 Red Lobster)
Ron Santo (1961 Topps)
Louis Santop (1974 Laughlin)
Ray Schalk (1914 Cracker Jack)
Mike Schmidt (1973 Topps)
Red Schoendienst (1946 Sears Cardinals Postcards)
Tom Seaver (1967 Topps)
Frank Selee (1904 Allegheny) - Second Card (1980-01 Perez Steele HOF Postcards)
Joe Sewell (1921-23 National Caramel)

Al Simmons (1923-24 Exhibits)
George Sisler (1916 M101-5/4)
Enos Slaughter (1941 Double Play/W754)
Hilton Smith (1948-49 Toleteros)
Ozzie Smith (1978 Family Fun Center)
John Smoltz (1988 Fleer Update)
Duke Snider (1949 Bowman)
Billy Southworth (1919-21 W514)
Warren Spahn (1947 Tip Top Bread/W602)
Albert Spalding (1888 G & B Chewing Gum) - Second Card (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)

Tris Speaker (1908-09 Rose Company Postcards)
Willie Stargell (1963 Topps)
Turkey Stearnes (1978 Laughlin)
Casey Stengel (1916 M101-5/Fleischmann Bakery)
Bruce Sutter (1977 Topps)
Mule Suttles (1974 Laughlin)
Don Sutton (1966 Topps)
Ben Taylor (1978 Laughlin)
Bill Terry (1925 Exhibits)
Frank Thomas (1990 Bowman/Classic/Leaf/Score/Topps)

Sam Thompson (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Joe Tinker (1903 W600)
Joe Torre (1962 Post/Topps)
Cristobal Torriente (1923-24 Billiken/Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales)
Pie Traynor (1922 E120/W573)
Dazzy Vance (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Arky Vaughan (1933 Worch Cigars/Goudey)
Bill Veeck (1952 St. Louis Browns Postcards)
Rube Waddell (1902 W600)
Honus Wagner (1902 W600)

Bobby Wallace (1902 W600)
Ed Walsh (1904 W600)
Lloyd Waner (1927 York Caramel)
Paul Waner (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhibits)
John Ward (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Earl Weaver (1969 Topps)
George Weiss (1973-80 TCMA All-Time Greats)
Mickey Welch (1886 N167/H812/N-UNC)
Willie Wells (1974 Laughlin)
Zach Wheat (1909-11 T206)

Deacon White (1887 Buchner)
Sol White (1978 Laughlin)
Hoyt Wilhelm (1952 Topps)
J.L. Wilkinson (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Billy Williams (1961 Topps)
Dick Williams (1952 Topps)
Joe Williams (1974 Laughlin)
Ted Williams (1939 Play Ball/R303A)
Vic Willis (1903 E107)
Hack Wilson (1925 W504)

Jud Wilson (1974 Laughlin)
Dave Winfield (1974 Topps)
George Wright (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Harry Wright (1887 Old Judge)
Early Wynn (1948 Safe-T-Card/Gunther Beer Postcards)
Carl Yastrzemski (1960 Topps)
Tom Yawkey (1959 Ted Williams Set)
Cy Young (1893 Just So Tobacco) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Ross Youngs (1919-21 W514)
Robin Yount (1975 Topps/Hostess)

bcbgcbrcb
01-06-2015, 07:21 PM
I didn't check everyone but the new guys look good to me.

Compsella
01-06-2015, 07:28 PM
I didn't check everyone but the new guys look good to me.


Thanks.

dgo71
01-06-2015, 07:58 PM
Alomar is also included in the 1988 Fleer and Score update sets. Not sure if they are not included since the Donruss issue precluded them by several months, but thought I'd bring it up in case you'd like to add them.

Thank you for this list!

h2oya311
01-06-2015, 08:35 PM
Alomar is also included in the 1988 Fleer and Score update sets. Not sure if they are not included since the Donruss issue precluded them by several months, but thought I'd bring it up in case you'd like to add them.

Thank you for this list!

And 1988 Topps Traded.

GehrigFan
01-06-2015, 09:18 PM
Phil, may I have a copy of this for my own personal use? Before I copy and paste and format, bust seeing if you already have it in excel or word format?

Mark

Compsella
01-07-2015, 01:23 AM
And 1988 Topps Traded.

I think Phil originally excluded the traded and update sets, if a regular issue was released that year. It makes sense, and would also reduce the amount of Frank Thomases and Greg Madduxes, et al., to have to include here.

In the instance that a player's actual first card in that year was from an update set, i.e. - Kirby Puckett, John Smoltz, Biggio, those are listed.

dougscats
01-07-2015, 09:18 AM
I believe that this is Jocko Conlon from his playing days, no?

Would this matchbook qualify as his rookie card?

bcbgcbrcb
01-07-2015, 10:03 AM
Doug:

That would work for one of my other lists "Earliest Collectibles of BB HOF'ers" but not a rookie card list.

bn2cardz
01-07-2015, 11:50 AM
I don't follow "rookie" cards that much in prewar, but why aren't t200 Fatimas not considered a rookie card for some players? For instance Eppa Rixey's rookie is listed as 1916 M101-5/4, yet the t200 is from 1913 predating this listed card by 3 years.

Is it because these are team photos? In which case how many players does it take on a single card to exclude it from "RC" status?

bcbgcbrcb
01-07-2015, 02:51 PM
I don't count team photos. Typically, 4 or less constitutes rookie card status for me, primarily because that was the max number that Topps used over the years for their "future star" cards.

LincolnVT
01-08-2015, 07:31 PM
I understand your rational on the "no more than four" players on a rookie card. Than being said, some of the most rare examples of players featured on cards pre-date the Topps era. And many players first appearance on a card, as a professional, is on a card featuring more than four players.

All in the eyes of the beholder!

bcbgcbrcb
01-08-2015, 07:38 PM
You're right, can still be their earliest collectible or even earliest card appearance, just not a rookie card to me.

LincolnVT
01-08-2015, 07:59 PM
....I would add that some pre-war "rookie cards" are much more readily available than the first cards that feature professionals with more than four players on them.

LincolnVT
01-09-2015, 09:39 AM
BTW....I love the list. Thanks!

jason.1969
01-09-2015, 01:44 PM
Phil,

What an amazing list. Are you willing to share your methodology briefly? Take Dizzy Dean (or anyone else) as an example...how did you go about tracking down their RC? If the answer is "searched personal collection," my hat is definitely off to you!

bcbgcbrcb
01-09-2015, 01:58 PM
Jason:

Personal collection.........I wish!

A number of years ago now, I took my copy of The Standard Catalogue of Baseball Cards and went year by year (starting with the oldest first) filling in on a spreadsheet the earliest card set that each HOF'er appeared on. Of course, there were some adjustments made over the following years but that is how it all started.

Mountaineer1999
01-10-2015, 01:17 PM
This is a great list! Thanks for sharing and the research that went into it! Anyone on here with more than say 1/2 of the cards listed? Be a fun lifetime project to see what could be put together.

Joe_G.
01-10-2015, 02:24 PM
I believe Beckley, Griffith & Nichols are included because the OJ is a major league "set" even though they are depicted still in their minor league garb.

Not sure I follow. There are more minor league teams than major league teams in OJ set. All Griffith & Nichols OJ cards depict them with minor league teams (Milwaukee & Omaha respectively).

bcbgcbrcb
01-10-2015, 03:56 PM
Donnie:

Before I gave up the quest and sold everything, I was up around 85% complete. My collection was a mix and match though and included many first cards such as minor leagues, team issues, etc. so all of the cards would not match my rookie list but many examples were actually better than the true rookie cards listed.

Compsella
01-12-2015, 11:49 AM
Phil,

What an amazing list. Are you willing to share your methodology briefly? Take Dizzy Dean (or anyone else) as an example...how did you go about tracking down their RC? If the answer is "searched personal collection," my hat is definitely off to you!

Phil definitely spent a lot of time on this. Just updating the last 3 years of HOFers took quite some time.

For me, I just Googled, Yahoo, and eBay (current and completed) searched for the players name plus RC, rookie, first card, etc.

I would have never found out about the Bobby Cox Venezuela card otherwise.

autocentral
01-12-2015, 07:28 PM
Phil,
Definitely a great list. I copy pasted it on my excel and word documents. I go updating as I cross some of these off my list.

-Nick

Exhibitman
01-12-2015, 11:33 PM
The "stickers are not cards" thing is silly! People get so freaking wierd about the whole "what is a card" thing. It was distributed with the intent of being collected and the stickers are even roughly "traditional card" sized. Such a silly argument...maybe T3's shouldn't be cards because they are roughly the same size as the Dean's card above (both the same size, they depict baseball players, have advertising on them, and were distributed with the intent of being collected by people...how are they different again?). Caramelo Deportivo cards were meant to be stuck into an album so they are basically stickers, too... better take them off the list! Why be so exclusionary? There exists a collectible item of Mike Schmidt that predates his first Topps card so why would it not be on the list because there is some adhesive on the back? There are many items cataloged in the CARD CATALOG that are fairly large (R309-2, T3's, R311, etc.) I don't really understand why today we get so caught up on the little dstails of what a "card" is.

Some would have you believe that if it isn't between the size of T206 and a Topps Tall-Boy than it isn't a "card" (No exhibits, no postcards, no premiums of any kind like R313, R314, etc.). Also it can't be round (no E254, E270, E286, Dixie Lids, etc.). It can't be too small (no Baguer Chocolates, R423, etc.). It can't be a part of a box (no J=K, E271, Orange Borders, Wheaties cards, etc.). It can't have sticky stuff on back (no "stickers", Topps test issues, etc.). It can't be made of anything other than traditional paper (no coins, pins, Salada, Topps Plaks, etc.). It can't be part of a deck of "game" cards (no Tom Barker, Walter Mails, Allegheny, etc.). and this is the first time I've seen it, but now it can't be one-of-a-kind because you know those don't "really" exist do they? (no Allegheny, 1921 Herpolsheimers, etc., etc.).

If you are cool with collecting Only Topps, Bowman, and maybe some T206's then those are great rules BUT if you want to collect the earliest known CARD (insert the most liberal interpretation of "card") then that is a list that would be of some use to the collecting world.

-Rhett

Don't forget all those Zeenuts that predate the cards on the list. Gotta be a dozen or more HOFers there. And the 1928 Exhibit PCL Earl Averill. And team issued mail reply cards and PCs. 1949 Philadelphia Bulletin Ashburn and Nellie Fox. And the 1958 Bob Gibson minor league card. Modesto A's Rickey Henderson. San Berdoo Junior [next year]. Rochester [?] Ripken. Baltimore Lefty Grove. 1956 Frank Robinson. 1947 Brooklyn Dodgers team issue PC Drysdale. Come to think of it, the more you exclude the more fun this can be! We could literally build an entire parallel list of cards of HOFers that predate the 'rookie' cards on the list.

bcbgcbrcb
01-13-2015, 07:07 AM
Adam:

Since you asked for it, the below list came from another thread of mine on Net 54. It should cover most of what you are looking for. I also included sportswriters and broadcasters as an added bonus.

Earliest Collectibles of Baseball Hall of Famers

1952 Hank Aaron (Indianapolis Clowns P/C)
1911 Grover Alexander (M101-2)
1987 Roberto Alomar (Wichita Minor League)
1937 Walter Alston (Rochester Team Premium)
1958 Sparky Anderson (LaPresse)
1868 Cap Anson (Marshalltown Team Photo) courtesy of Corey S. & Kevin S.
1953 Luis Aparicio (Venezuelan League)
1931 Luke Appling (4-on-1 Exhibits)
1948 Richie Ashburn (Philadelphia Bulletin/M114)
1926 Earl Averill (Zeenuts)

1908 Frank Baker (Reading Team P/C)
1909 Dave Bancroft (Superior RPPC)
1954 Ernie Banks (Topps/All-Star Photo Pack)
1955 Al Barlick (Bowman)
1896 Ed Barrow (Paterson Team Cabinet)
1887 Jake Beckley (Lincoln Team Cabinet) courtesy of Clint
1926 Cool Papa Bell (St. Louis Stars Team P/C)
1967 Johnny Bench (Cincinnati Team Issue)
1903 Chief Bender (E107/W600)

1946 Yogi Berra (Newark Team Photo)
1970 Bert Blyleven (Minnesota Team Issue)
1981 Wade Boggs (TCMA - Pawtucket)
1921 Jim Bottomley (Packers Team Photo)
1941 Lou Boudreau (Double Play)
1903 Roger Bresnahan (W600)
1971 George Brett (Billings Team Premium)
1962 Lou Brock (Topps)

1879 Dan Brouthers (NY Clipper Woodcut)
1901 Mordecai Brown (Terre-Haute Team Composite)
1935 Raymond Brown (Negro League Broadside)
1935 Willard Brown (KC Monarchs Team Photo)
1880's Morgan Bulkeley (Matthew Brady Cabinet)
1956 Jim Bunning (Mariano Team Photo)
1890 Jesse Burkett (Sporting Times - Giants Team Supplement)
1943 Roy Campanella (Mexican League Team P/C)

1965 Rod Carew (Orlando Team Photo Premium)
1908 Max Carey (Concordia Team Cabinet)
1965 Steve Carlton (Topps/St. Louis Team Issue)
1975 Gary Carter (Topps/TCMA IL All-Stars)
1840's Alexander Cartwright (Knickerbockers Team Dag Photo) courtesy of Barry S.
1955 Orlando Cepeda (Salem Team Photo)
1861 Henry Chadwick (St. George's Team Photo) courtesy of Barry S.

1898 Frank Chance (Chicago Team Photo Premium)
1949 Happy Chandler (Eureka)
1914 Oscar Charleston (US Military Team P/C)
1895 Jack Chesbro (Springfield Team Photo Supplement)
1955 Nestor Chylak (Bowman)
1898 Fred Clarke (Louisville Cabinet Card)
1885 John Clarkson (Harper's Weekly Chicago Team Photo Woodcut)
1952 Roberto Clemente (Santurce Team Composite)
1905 Ty Cobb (W601 - Detroit Team Composite Premium)
1924 Mickey Cochrane (Zeenuts)

1907 Eddie Collins (W600)
1893 Jimmy Collins (Buffalo Team Photo Cabinet)
1922 Earle Combs (Louisville Team Photo)
1879 Charles Comiskey (Dubuque Team Cabinet) courtesy of Jay M.
1931 Jocko Conlan (LaPresse)
1950 Tom Connolly (Callahan HOF)
1879 Roger Connor (NY Clipper Woodcuts)
1923 Andy Cooper (Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales)
1909 Stan Coveleski (Lancaster Team P/C)

1899 Sam Crawford (Chatham Team Cabinet) courtesy of Clint
1931 Joe Cronin (Washington Team Issue/4-on-1 Exhibits)
1873 Candy Cummings (Baltimore Team Composite) courtesy of Corey S.
1924 Kiki Cuyler (M114)
1944 Ray Dandridge (Mexican League Premium)
1890 George Davis (Ryder Studio Cabinet/Sporting Life Cleveland Team Woodcut)
1977 Andre Dawson (Topps/Montreal Team Issue Photo)
1935 Leon Day (Negro League Broadside)
1929 Dizzy Dean (San Antonio Team Composite Premium)
1889 Ed Delahanty (N172/MacIntire Studios Cabinet)

1931 Bill Dickey (W502/4-on-1 Exhibits)
1927 Martin Dihigo (Mallorquina)
1934 Joe DiMaggio (Zeenuts)
1946 Larry Doby (Newark Eagles X-Mas Card)
1937 Bobby Doerr (Goudey Wide-Pen Premiums)
1902 Barney Dreyfuss (Pittsburgh Gazette Supplement)
1955 Don Drysdale (Montreal Team Photo Premium)
1887 Hugh Duffy (Lowell Team Cabinet) courtesy of Jay M.
1929 Leo Durocher (4-on-1 Exhibits)

1976 Dennis Eckersley (Topps/SSPC)
1910 Billy Evans (M101-2)
1903 Johnny Evers (W600)
1885 Buck Ewing (Harper's Weekly Woodcuts)
1914 Red Faber (Chicago Team P/C)
1936 Bob Feller (Boston American Stamps/Press Photo)
1931 Rick Ferrell (4-on-1 Exhibits)
1967 Rollie Fingers (Birmingham Team Photo)

1968 Carlton Fisk (Waterloo Team Photo) courtesy of Tony S.
1899 Elmer Flick (M101-1)
1951 Whitey Ford (Bowman/Berk Ross)
1909 Rube Foster (Leland Team P/C)
1927 Willie Foster (Mallorquina)
1945 Nellie Fox (Lancaster Team Photo)
1925 Jimmy Foxx (Exhibits P/C Backs)
1949 Ford Frick (Eureka)
1920 Frank Frisch (W519)

1879 Pud Galvin (Buffalo Team Photo Trade Card)
1922 Lou Gehrig (Hartford Team Photo)
1926 Charlie Gehringer (Exhibits)
1957 Bob Gibson (Columbus Team Photo Premium)
1928 Josh Gibson (Pittsburgh Crawfords Team Photo)
1956 Warren Giles (Topps)
1962 Pat Gillick (Elmira Team Photo) courtesy of Jodi B.
1929 Lefty Gomez (Zeenuts)
1938 Joe Gordon (Newark Team Photo)

1922 Goose Goslin (E120)
1972 Rich Gossage (Puerto Rican League Sticker)
1887 Frank Grant (Buffalo Team Cabinet)
1934 Hank Greenberg (Goudey/Batter-Up/Diamond Stars)
1889 Clark Griffith (N172)
1920 Burleigh Grimes (M114)
1921 Lefty Grove (Tip Top Bread/Baltimore Team Panorama)
1982 Tony Gwynn (TCMA - Hawaii)
1926 Chick Hafey (St. Louis Cardinals Team P/C)

1916 Jesse Haines (Springfield Team Panorama)
1889 Billy Hamilton (N172)
1879 Ned Hanlon (Albany Team Cabinet)
1956 William Harridge (Topps)
1921 Bucky Harris (Exhibits)
1922 Gabby Hartnett (E120/W573)
1984 Doug Harvey (Smokey the Bear Padres)
1913 Harry Heilmann (Zeenuts)

1977 Rickey Henderson (Chong - Modesto A's)
1929 Bill Herman (Louiville Team Photo)
1957 Whitey Herzog (Topps/Washington Team Issue)
1909 Pete Hill (Cabanas)
1907 Harry Hooper (St. Mary's P/C)
1915 Rogers Hornsby (Denison Team P/C)
1921 Waite Hoyt (American Caramel)
1955 Cal Hubbard (Bowman)

1926 Carl Hubbell (Toronto Team Panorama)
1904 Miller Huggins (W601)
1889 William Hulbert (Spalding Baseball Guide)
1965 Catfish Hunter (Topps/Athletics Team Issue Photo)
1948 Monte Irvin (El Indio)
1967 Reggie Jackson (Birmingham Team Photo)
1923 Travis Jackson (William Paterson/M114 NY Giants Team Premium)
1966 Fergie Jenkins (Topps/Chicago Team Issue)
1894 Hugh Jennings (Alpha Photo Engraving)

1903 Ban Johnson (Horner American League Composite)
1921 Judy Johnson (Original Cabinet Photo) courtesy of D. Granger
1907 Walter Johnson (Weisner Cabinet) courtesy of Jeff Prizner
1903 Addie Joss (E107/W600)
1954 Al Kaline (Topps/All-Star Photo Pack)
1879 Tim Keefe (New York Clipper Woodcut)
1892 Willie Keeler (Binghamton Team Cabinet)
1945 George Kell (Philadelphia Team Photo Pack)
1894 Joe Kelley (Alpha Photo Engraving)

1914 George Kelly (Spokane Team Photo P/C)
1879 King Kelly (1879 New York Clipper Woodcut)
1955 Harmon Killebrew (Topps/Topps Double Headers)
1941 Ralph Kiner (Albany Team Photo)
1925 Chuck Klein (Exhibit P/C Backs)
1910 Bill Klem (M101-2)
1955 Sandy Koufax (Topps/Golden Stamps)
1969 Bowie Kuhn (Topps Promo)

1897 Nap Lajoie (Leslie's Illustrated)
1916 Kenesaw Landis (Hartford Team Photo)
1986 Barry Larkin (Sportsflics Update)
1950 Tommy LaSorda (Big League Stars)
1922 Tony Lazzeri (Zeenuts)
1946 Bob Lemon (Cleveland Team Photo P/C)
1935 Buck Leonard (Negro League Broadside)
1924 Fred Lindstrom (M114 - Giants Team Photo Premium)
1910 Pop Lloyd (Punch)
1927 Ernie Lombardi (Oakland Team Photo)

1930 Al Lopez (Baguer Chocolates)
1924 Ted Lyons (Diaz Cigarettes)
1887 Connie Mack (N172)
1924 Biz Mackey (Aguilitas)
1947 Larry MacPhail (True Comics)
1981 Lee MacPhail (Perez Steele HOF P/C)
1996 Effa Manley (Negro League Playing Cards)
1948 Mickey Mantle (Independence Team Panorama)
1923 Heinie Manush (Tomas Gutierrez - Detroit Team Composite)
1912 Rabbit Maranville (Boston P/C)

1960 Juan Marichal (Tacoma Giants)
1907 Rube Marquard (Canton Team P/C)
1950 Ed Mathews (Atlanta Team Photo)
1901 Christy Mathewson (Police Gazette Supplements)
1951 Willie Mays (Bowman/M114)
1956 Bill Mazeroski (Pittsburgh Team Photo Pack)
1909 Joe McCarthy (E254)
1887 Tommy McCarthy (N172)
1960 Willie McCovey (Topps/Jay Publishing)

1899 Joe McGinnity (M101-1)
1948 Bill McGowan (Umpire School P/C)
1894 John McGraw (Alpha Photo Engraving)
1906 Bill McKechnie (Washington Team P/C)
1885 Bid McPhee (Cincinnati Team Cabinet) courtesy of Gary P.
1933 Joe Medwick (Worch Cigars)
1910 Jose Mendez (Punch)
1933 Johnny Mize (Greensboro Team Photo)

1978 Paul Molitor (Topps)
1965 Joe Morgan (Topps/Houston Team Issue Photo)
1977 Eddie Murray (Baltimore Team Photo Pack)
1941 Stan Musial (Rochester Team Premium)
1939 Hal Newhouser (Salutation Exhibits)
1889 Kid Nichols (N172)

1964 Phil Niekro (Topps)
1966 Walter O'Malley (LA Dodgers Record Covers)
1871 Jim O'Rourke (Stratford Osceolas Team Photo) courtesy of Paul C.
1929 Mel Ott (Kashin/4-on-1 Exhibits)
1932 Satchell Paige (Pittsburgh Crawfords P/C)
1964 Jim Palmer (Aberdeen Team Photo Premium)
1921 Herb Pennock (E220)
1963 Tony Perez (San Diego Team Issue)
1961 Gaylord Perry (Tacoma Bank)

1902 Eddie Plank (W600)
1922 Alex Pompez (NY Cubans Team Photo)
1931 Cum Posey (Homestead Grays P/C)
1983 Kirby Puckett (Larry Fritsch - Visalia)
1879 Charles Radbourne (Dubuque Team Cabinet) courtesy of Jay M.
1939 Pee Wee Reese (Louisville Team Photo Premium)

1973 Jim Rice (Venezuelan League Sticker)
1917 Sam Rice (Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit)
1906 Branch Rickey (W601 St. Louis P/C)
1980 Cal Ripken Jr. (Charlotte - Police)
1913 Eppa Rixey (T200 - Philadelphia)
1939 Phil Rizzuto (Kansas City Team Photo Premium)
1948 Robin Roberts (Philadelphia Bulletin)
1955 Brooks Robinson (Baltimore Team Issue)
1953 Frank Robinson (Butte Team Photo)
1946 Jackie Robinson (Parade Sportive)

1887 Wilbert Robinson (Kalamazoo Bats)
1916 Bullet Rogan (25th Infantry Panorama)
1909 Edd Roush (Oakland City Team Photo P/C)
1924 Red Ruffing (Diaz Cigarettes)
1889 Amos Rusie (N172)
1914 Babe Ruth (Baltimore News/Baltimore Orioles Team Photo/Providence Team Photo)
1968 Nolan Ryan (Topps)
1980 Ryne Sandberg (TCMA - Reading)
1961 Ron Santo (Topps/Manny's BB Land)

1911 Louis Santop (Lincoln Giants Team P/C)
1913 Ray Schalk (M101-2)
1971 Mike Schmidt (Reading Team Premium)
1945 Red Schoendienst (M114)
1967 Tom Seaver (Topps/Mets Team Issue P/C)
1887 Frank Selee (Oshkosh Team Cabinet)
1920 Joe Sewell (Cleveland Team Photo P/C)
1923 Al Simmons (Exhibits)

1916 George Sisler (M101-5/BF2 Ferguson Pennants)
1937 Enos Slaughter (Columbus Team Photo Premium)
1935 Hilton Smith (Bismarck Team Photo P/C)
1978 Ozzie Smith (Family Fun Center)
1946 Duke Snider (Fort Worth Team Photo)
1912 Billy Southworth (Portsmouth Team Photo)
1946 Warren Spahn (W602)
1867 Albert Spalding (Rockford CDV) courtesy of Gary P.
1908 Tris Speaker (Little Rock Team P/C)

1963 Willie Stargell (Topps/IDL Drugs)
1920 Turkey Stearnes (California League Photo)
1910 Casey Stengel (T210)
1976 Bruce Sutter (Chicago Tribune)
1926 Mule Suttles (St. Louis Stars Team Photo P/C)
1965 Don Sutton (Albuquerque Team Photo)
1916 Ben Taylor (Indianapolis Team Cabinet)
1923 Bill Terry (M114 - NY Giants Team Photo Premium)

1884 Sam Thompson (Evansville Photo) courtesy of Joe G.
1902 Joe Tinker (W600)
1923 Cristobal Torriente (Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken)
1922 Pie Traynor (E120)
1912 Dazzy Vance (Superior Team P/C) courtesy of Dan B.
1933 Arky Vaughan (Goudey/Worch Cigars)
1946 Bill Veeck (Cleveland Team Photo P/C)
1899 Rube Waddell (M101-1)
1895 Honus Wagner (Warren Team Imperial Cabinet)

1899 Bobby Wallace (M101-1)
1904 Ed Walsh (W600)
1925 Lloyd Waner (Zeenuts)
1923 Paul Waner (Zeenuts)
1879 John Ward (New York Clipper Woodcuts)
1950 Earl Weaver (Winston-Salem Team Issue)
1920 George Weiss (New Haven Team Cabinet)
1879 Mickey Welch (New York Clipper Woodcuts)
1925 Willie Wells (St. Louis Stars P/C)
1900's Zach Wheat (Original Cabinet Card)

1884 Sol White (Bellaire Globe Team Photo) courtesy of Kenny C.
1950 Hoyt Wilhelm (Fosforos)
1910 J.L. Wilkinson (Hopkins Team Photo P/C)
1961 Billy Williams (Topps/Topps Stamps)
1950 Dick Williams (Almendares Team Premium)
1914 Joe Williams (NY Lincoln Giants Team Photo)
1937 Ted Williams (San Diego Team Premium)
1899 Vic Willis (M101-1)
1922 Hack Wilson (Martinsburg Team Photo P/C)
1933 Jud Wilson (Philadelphia Stars P/C)

1973 Dave Winfield (Dean's Photo Service)
1863 George Wright (Photographic Studio CDV)
1859 Harry Wright (Knickerbockers/Excelsiors Teams Photo) courtesy of Barry S.
1943 Early Wynn (M114)
1960 Carl Yastrzemski (Topps/Minneapolis Team Photo Premium)
1959 Tom Yawkey (Fleer - Ted Williams)
1890 Cy Young (Ryder Studio Cabinet/Rogers Studio Cabinet)
1917 Ross Youngs (M114 - NY Giants Team Photo Premium/NY Giants Team P/C) courtesy of Matt
1974 Robin Yount (Big Boy's Team Photo Premium)


Please find below, a listing of the earliest collectibles of the Sportswriters & Broadcasters recognized by the Baseball Hall of Fame as Spink Award Winners & Frick Award Winners.

1949 Mel Allen (NY Yankees Photo Pack)
1951 Red Barber (Dodgers Broadcasters P/C)
1993 Marty Brennaman (Kahn's)
1953 Jack Brickhouse (Bob Feller's Baseball Broadcasters)
1922 Heywood Broun (Original Photo)
1989 Jack Buck (Pro Set)
1940's Buck Canel (Press Photo)
1949 Harry Caray (Sunday Morning Baseball League Broadside)
1942 John Carmichael (Who's Who in Baseball Photo)
1973 Herb Carneal (Minnesota Twins Yearbook Photo)

1949 Jerry *Coleman (NY Yankees Photo Pack)
1952 Jimmy Dudley (Broadcasters P/C)
1938 Bob Elson (Baseball Dope Book Photo)
2006 Gene Elston (Frick Award Winner Photo)
1988 Hugh Fullerton (Eight Men Out)
1993 Peter Gammons (ESPN Press Photo)
1946 Joe *Garagiola (M114 - St. Louis Team Photo Premium)
1950's Curt Gowdy (Broadcasters P/C)
1970 Milo Hamilton (Atlanta Team Issue Photo)
1953 Ernie Harwell (Bob Feller's Baseball Broadcasters)

1953 Russ Hodges (Bob Feller's Baseball Broadcasters)
2009 Jerome Holtzman (Jewish Baseball Update)
1998 Jaime Jarrin (LA Dodgers Team Issue Photo)
1984 Harry Kalas (Tastykake Phillies)
1952 John Kieran (Press Photo)
1957 Tony *Kubek (Topps/Yankees Team Photo Pack)
1925 Ring Lardner (Biography Photo)
2007 Denny Matthews (KC Royals Team Issue Photo)
1953 Arch McDonald (Bob Feller's Baseball Broadcasters)
2004 Jon Miller (Fleer Announcing Greats)

1879 Tim *Murnane (New York Clipper Woodcut)
1988 Bob Murphy (Rini P/C)
1959 Lindsey Nelson (Phillies Cigars)
1995 Dave Niehaus (Seattle Team Issue)
1941 Buck *O'Neil (KC Monarchs Team Photo Broadside)
1953 Bob Prince (Bob Feller's Baseball Broadcasters)
1951 Felo Ramirez (Press Photo)
1990 Joe Riechler (Little Sun)
1952 Grantland Rice (NFL Poster)
1915 Damon Runyon (Pittsburgh Post - Green Sheet)

1959 By Saam (Phillies Cigars)
1951 Vin Scully (Dodgers Broadcaster's P/C)
1999 Lon Simmons (Keebler)
1985 W. Red Smith (Life Magazine)
1952 J.G. Taylor Spink (Press Photo)
2004 Chuck Thompson (Baltimore Lottery)
1962 Bob *Uecker (Topps)
1957 Bob Wolff (Press Photo)
1990 Dick Young (Little Sun)

h2oya311
01-13-2015, 08:02 AM
Phil - I've always preferred the "earliest collectible" list over the "rookie" list...thanks for re-posting. I seem to recall another where the team premiums, etc. are excluded. But perhaps we just need three or four parallel lists (by player) so people can define their "checklist" as they see fit.

dougscats
12-31-2015, 11:30 AM
Just a bump to thank you, Phil, for your great research.

I'm also doing this for those who are unaware of this list; for me, it's a great reference.

And a Happy New Year to all!

h2oya311
12-31-2015, 04:34 PM
+1 ! Phil is a pioneer/legend for all the HOF rookie card collectors out there...he definitely deserves a HUGE shout-out! If only that torch hadn't burnt out during the transition to Negro League / Ice Cream memorabilia...

insidethewrapper
01-18-2016, 07:21 PM
Phil: I appreciate the list. Your a true hobby man. Sharing data is so unselfish. Thanks.

Hankphenom
01-19-2016, 11:17 AM
Not to nitpick, but I disagree with the Walter Johnson listing of the Weiser cabinet as his "rookie card." To me, this is a mounted photograph, not a card. Not sure what his rookie card would be, maybe the American Caramel, I'll leave that to the card experts. I just don't see a one-of-a-kind photo of a baseball player as being a baseball card, that's all.

dougscats
01-19-2016, 11:40 AM
Hi Phil.

I recently bought this Buck Leonard on Net54.
It was described as a "1960's Jim Rowe Postcard, wearing 1958 Durango uniform [autographed]."

May I take it that this is an artifact/that such postcards are not designated as cards?

Thanks.

Doug

Baseball Rarities
01-19-2016, 11:41 AM
Not to nitpick, but I disagree with the Walter Johnson listing of the Weiser cabinet as his "rookie card." To me, this is a mounted photograph, not a card. Not sure what his rookie card would be, maybe the American Caramel, I'll leave that to the card experts. I just don't see a one-of-a-kind photo of a baseball player as being a baseball card, that's all.

I think that Johnson's Rose Co. Postcard is now considered his rookie card (if one includes postcards). It was definitely issued in 1908.

I think that Johnson's Weiser Wonder cabinet and postcard (if it was, in fact, issued during his days with Weiser) are referred to as his "pre-rookie" cards. I do agree with you in that the unique cabinet photo was not intended for distribution and should be viewed more as a photo than a card.

bcbgcbrcb
01-19-2016, 04:08 PM
Guys, don't I have the Rose Comapny P/C listed as WaJo's rookie card in my first post of this thread?

I agree with Kevin S.

bcbgcbrcb
01-19-2016, 04:11 PM
I would treat that Buck Leonard postcard as a real photo postcard, unless it's part of a catalogued set, I would not use it as a rookie card. It's not the postcard designation itself, it's more the uniqueness as well as the lack of dates of issue and the fact that those were produced over many years. I would consider those Rowe postcards more like a collector's issue set, kind of like Broder's sets from the 70's and '80's.

Baseball Rarities
01-19-2016, 04:34 PM
Guys, don't I have the Rose Comapny P/C listed as WaJo's rookie card in my first post of this thread?

I agree with Kevin S.

Phil - you do. I was just responding to Hank's post concerning the Weiser PC and his asking about the E91 American Caramel issue.

Hankphenom
01-19-2016, 10:12 PM
Guys, don't I have the Rose Comapny P/C listed as WaJo's rookie card in my first post of this thread?

I agree with Kevin S.

I was just responding to your post of the 13th. On the Weiser postcards, I don't believe any were issued until several years after he had left Weiser. If the Rose set was issued in 1908, that would certainly qualify as a rookie card since there wasn't time for any 1907 issues. Perhaps the American Caramel was also from 1908, but as I said I'm no expert on that.

Leon
01-20-2016, 10:12 AM
It seems like rookie HOF status always goes back to definitions of a "card"....or how it was distributed, was it a part of a series etc.....

I was just responding to your post of the 13th. On the Weiser postcards, I don't believe any were issued until several years after he had left Weiser. If the Rose set was issued in 1908, that would certainly qualify as a rookie card since there wasn't time for any 1907 issues. Perhaps the American Caramel was also from 1908, but as I said I'm no expert on that.

Hankphenom
01-20-2016, 10:49 AM
It seems like rookie HOF status always goes back to definitions of a "card"....or how it was distributed, was it a part of a series etc.....

There is that debate, certainly. To me, it's what they used to say about obscenity: "you know it when you see it." Just speaking personally, I don't think it needs to be part of a series, and I don't see why a postcard back should disqualify, but I also understand the arguments against those. In the case of a mounted photograph, to me that can only be categorized as a mounted photograph.

Vintageclout
01-20-2016, 06:49 PM
Phil - you do. I was just responding to Hank's post concerning the Weiser PC and his asking about the E91 American Caramel issue.

Hank/Kevin,

If T5 Cabinets (as well as other rare cabinets) are considered official cards, then the Weiser Wonder is likewise a card. However, as Kevin correctly noted, since the Weiser Wonder reflects Johnson as a pre-Major League pitcher, it is his inaugural "professional baseball" issue and NOT a true MLB rookie card (similar to cards like the Baltimore News Ruth, Zeenut DiMaggio, etc.). The Rose PC is, indeed, Johnsons true rookie card.

JoeT

Baseball Rarities
01-20-2016, 07:27 PM
Hank/Kevin,

If T5 Cabinets (as well as other rare cabinets) are considered official cards, then the Weiser Wonder is likewise a card. However, as Kevin correctly noted, since the Weiser Wonder reflects Johnson as a pre-Major League pitcher, it is his inaugural "professional baseball" issue and NOT a true MLB rookie card (similar to cards like the Baltimore News Ruth, Zeenut DiMaggio, etc.). The Rose PC is, indeed, Johnsons true rookie card.

JoeT

Hi Joe - There is always going to be debate on what constitutes a baseball card. One criteria for me is that it needs to have been created for public distribution. Cabinet cards such as N173s, T5s, etc. fall into that category. I tend to look at generic cabinets as being more of a photo as they were most likely made for a player or a relative and not for the consumer to collect.

Of course, it all comes down to personal preference and, in the end, we will all collect what does it for us.

Goudey
01-22-2016, 12:05 AM
Not sure if its been said but Lefty Grove has a card far before 1928 Star Player. 1921 Baltimore Orioles Tip Top.

bcbgcbrcb
01-22-2016, 05:34 AM
Matt:

The Tip Top Grove was a minor league card, thus making it a pre-rookie and not a rookie card.

Hankphenom
01-22-2016, 01:01 PM
Hank/Kevin,

If T5 Cabinets (as well as other rare cabinets) are considered official cards, then the Weiser Wonder is likewise a card. However, as Kevin correctly noted, since the Weiser Wonder reflects Johnson as a pre-Major League pitcher, it is his inaugural "professional baseball" issue and NOT a true MLB rookie card (similar to cards like the Baltimore News Ruth, Zeenut DiMaggio, etc.). The Rose PC is, indeed, Johnsons true rookie card.

JoeT

I was talking about the mounted Weiser photo, Jimmy, not the "Weiser Wonder" PC, which in any case was probably issued in 1910. If you did mean to compare the Weiser mounted photo to the T5 Johnson, the former's a photo and the latter a card, IMO.

jason.1969
01-22-2016, 06:54 PM
Will raise a question re: Hank Aaron. I read there was a 1952 Indy Clowns postcard set that included Aaron. OldCardboard.com has a pic, though I suppose I don't know for sure it's authentic.

Given that we generally accept postcards as RCs and given that we accept non-MLB for other Negro League players (e.g., Josh Gibson), should we not consider the 1952 Indy Clowns P/C as the Aaron rookie?

Am assuming the answer is "pre-rookie" because Aaron later played in the bigs. However, I'm less comfortable applying that approach to the Negro Leagues than I am the minor leagues.

I will further note that the 1915 CJ Ed Rous(c)h RC depicts him with the Federal League Indianapolis club, which I do realize is still treated as the big leagues but is nonetheless a bit harder to clearly differentiate from the Negro Leagues.

Am not looking to assert more knowledge than the OP here. Certainly I am nowhere near. Rather, just pointing out what seems to be a curious case.

Vintageclout
01-22-2016, 06:56 PM
I was talking about the mounted Weiser photo, Jimmy, not the "Weiser Wonder" PC, which in any case was probably issued in 1910. If you did mean to compare the Weiser mounted photo to the T5 Johnson, the former's a photo and the latter a card, IMO.

Gotcha Hank!

rainier2004
01-22-2016, 08:19 PM
Will raise a question re: Hank Aaron. I read there was a 1952 Indy Clowns postcard set that included Aaron. OldCardboard.com has a pic, though I suppose I don't know for sure it's authentic.

Given that we generally accept postcards as RCs and given that we accept non-MLB for other Negro League players (e.g., Josh Gibson), should we not consider the 1952 Indy Clowns P/C as the Aaron rookie?

Am assuming the answer is "pre-rookie" because Aaron later played in the bigs. However, I'm less comfortable applying that approach to the Negro Leagues than I am the minor leagues.

I will further note that the 1915 CJ Ed Rous(c)h RC depicts him with the Federal League Indianapolis club, which I do realize is still treated as the big leagues but is nonetheless a bit harder to clearly differentiate from the Negro Leagues.

Am not looking to assert more knowledge than the OP here. Certainly I am nowhere near. Rather, just pointing out what seems to be a curious case.

Good point...I guess the question becomes if the negro leagues are considered the big leagues. At this point I think they would.

bcbgcbrcb
01-22-2016, 09:14 PM
Jason:

You can definitely make a good case for the Aaron postcard as a rookie card. My stance on it is yes to the Negro League part of the equation (although it pre-dates Aaron's time in Jacksonville, which would be considered pre-rookie time), yes to the postcard part of the equation but, in the end, no because it is a unique real photo postcard (only one known as far as I could tell). Since there are a few other Indy players issued in the same format, could be considered part of a "set" and thus could qualify for rookie card status.

This one could really go either way, I chose to stick with the 1954 Aaron issues as rookie cards....

jason.1969
01-23-2016, 04:36 PM
That's a good way to look at it. Hadn't realized there was only one. And with that verdict, I can once again take pride in knowing I own an Aaron RC (54T). :-)

dougscats
03-04-2016, 11:03 AM
A couple of questions, Phil:

-In a case like McCovey, where there are two cards in the 1960 Topps set, are both cards considered his rookie card?

-In the 1975 set, where there is a mini-size as well as regular-size set, are both sets considered rookie cards?

-What are the rookie cards for the most recent inductees [Griffey, Piazza, any others]?

I collect hall-of-famers, and, inspired by your list, I've started to actively collect their rookie cards of late.

Thanks.

Peter_Spaeth
03-04-2016, 11:27 AM
Whilst you are waiting for Phil, clearly only the regular issue McCovey and not the AS is his RC, and both Bretts are his rookie from the separate sets.

Griffey has a 1987 Bellingham Mariners card.

Piazza has a 1989 Salem Dodgers card.

mechanicalman
03-04-2016, 12:05 PM
This thread, while incredibly informative, led to the very humbling realization that, contrary to my previous understanding, I have, in fact, no rookie cards.

bcbgcbrcb
03-04-2016, 09:32 PM
While the Griffey & Piazza cards mentioned are first cards for each, they are both minor league cards and do not qualify as true rookie cards but are instead pre-rookie cards. Griffey has several 1989 rookie cards, with top billing always going to his Upper Deck #1 issue. Piazza's top rookie card is typically his 1992 Bowman, some like his 1992 Fleer Update.

Peter_Spaeth
03-04-2016, 09:44 PM
While the Griffey & Piazza cards mentioned are first cards for each, they are both minor league cards and do not qualify as true rookie cards but are instead pre-rookie cards. Griffey has several 1989 rookie cards, with top billing always going to his Upper Deck #1 issue. Piazza's top rookie card is typically his 1992 Bowman, some like his 1992 Fleer Update.

Upper Deck may be iconic for 89 Griffey cards, but Bowman Tiffany is more valuable.

CMIZ5290
03-04-2016, 09:55 PM
I have a 87 Bellingham Griffey Blank back Gem Mint. Any interest? Thanks...

dougscats
03-05-2016, 10:41 AM
Thanks for your reply, Peter, and your qualification, Phil.

May I take it then that:

Maddux RC is 1987?
Pedro Martinez, 1991 or 1992?
Frank Thomas, 1990?

Phil, if it's not too much trouble,
Could you update your opening list to include the past 2-3 years inductees?

I'm counting seven that aren't listed: Maddux, Martinez, Thomas, Smoltz, Glavine, Piazza, Griffey.
Am I missing any?

And good luck, Sam, on your first h-o-f RC--Hope you've got one of the new ones--

Peter_Spaeth
03-05-2016, 10:47 AM
Thanks for your reply, Peter, and your qualification, Phil.

May I take it then that:

Maddux RC is 1987?
Pedro Martinez, 1991?
Frank Thomas, 1990?

Phil, if it's not too much trouble,
Could you update your opening list to include the past 2-3 years inductees?

I'm counting seven that aren't listed: Maddux, Martinez, Thomas, Smoltz, Glavine, Piazza, Griffey.
Am I missing any?

And good luck, Sam, on your first h-o-f RC--Hope you've got one of the new ones--

If you are looking for major league rookie cards and not first cards, then you have all three right. I think there is only one option for Pedro, Upper Deck Final Edition, but there are several options for Thomas and Maddux.

Rookiemonster
03-05-2016, 11:05 AM
First major league card of any hall of famer would be the answer . Topps is usually the first release set every year . But that would answer most of your questions . Minor league card are not rookies . Just look for the release dates on the year of the rookie your looking for .

dougscats
03-05-2016, 11:50 AM
If Pedro didn't pitch in the major leagues until 1992, then that is his rookie card, no?

My original post stated 1991; sorry.

Peter_Spaeth
03-05-2016, 12:01 PM
If Pedro didn't pitch in the major leagues until 1992, then that is his rookie card, no?

My original post stated 1991; sorry.

No, rookie card is first appearance in licensed major league set such as Topps, Upper Deck, Fleer, etc. Many guys have RCs long before their major league debut. The rules about appearing in a set may have changed but back then you could picture a kid long before he played. Pedro's RC is 1991 Upper Deck Final Edition.

bcbgcbrcb
03-05-2016, 12:53 PM
Sure, Doug, I'll update my master list over this weekend. Here are the additional HOF'ers to be added:

Maddux, Pedro, Thomas, Smoltz, Glavine, Piazza, Griffey, Biggio, Big Unit, LaRussa (MGR), Cox (MGR) & Torre (MGR)

glchen
03-05-2016, 01:09 PM
No, rookie card is first appearance in licensed major league set such as Topps, Upper Deck, Fleer, etc. Many guys have RCs long before their major league debut. The rules about appearing in a set may have changed but back then you could picture a kid long before he played. Pedro's RC is 1991 Upper Deck Final Edition.

Is that the rule? I thought the rookie card rule was that the card listed the player on a Major League team? (as opposed to a minor team team or international team)

Edit: I guess these definitions are basically the same except Peter's stricter definition would exclude non-licensed sets like Panini from having "official" rookie cards.

Peter_Spaeth
03-05-2016, 02:09 PM
Is that the rule? I thought the rookie card rule was that the card listed the player on a Major League team? (as opposed to a minor team team or international team)

Edit: I guess these definitions are basically the same except Peter's stricter definition would exclude non-licensed sets like Panini from having "official" rookie cards.

I didn't even know Panini made baseball cards so I wasn't really speaking to that issue.

I can't even follow the really new stuff, I see for example 2008 cards saying Strasburg rookie from major manufacturers but then others from 2010 say rookie also.

bcbgcbrcb
03-05-2016, 03:09 PM
I have just updated my master list with the rookie cards for the past three years' inductees which were missing. I have not done extensive research on these as I had in the past because I no longer collect them and have no vested interest other than to help out fellow board members with their collections. If you feel I have made an error, please post here and we can discuss and I can always update the master list again as necessary.

Thanks again to everyone for your interest in this topic.

Peter_Spaeth
03-05-2016, 03:20 PM
I have just updated my master list with the rookie cards for the past three years' inductees which were missing. I have not done extensive research on these as I had in the past because I no longer collect them and have no vested interest other than to help out fellow board members with their collections. If you feel I have made an error, please post here and we can discuss and I can always update the master list again as necessary.

Thanks again to everyone for your interest in this topic.

Phil I assume that where a player has an issue in a regular season set you intended to exclude an update set from a different manufacturer even thought it would be from the same year? E.g. Maddux Fleer Update, Griffey Topps Traded?

dougscats
03-05-2016, 03:27 PM
Thank you again, Phil--
You're the Man!--

However, where is your Master List located?
I don't see the updates in the list on page 1.
Am I missing something?

This list is to your credit, even more so as you're not collecting them anymore.
You are also the authority on the rules, so I look to you for the final word.

Peter_Spaeth
03-05-2016, 03:30 PM
Thank you again, Phil--
You're the Man!--

However, where is your Master List located?
I don't see the updates in the list on page 1.
Am I missing something?

This list is to your credit, even more so as you're not collecting them anymore.
You are also the authority on the rules, so I look to you for the final word.

Right at the bottom of his first post.
LATEST HOF INDUCTEES

Craig Biggio (1988 Score Traded/Fleer Update)
Bobby Cox (1969 Topps)
Tom Glavine (1988 Donruss/Fleer/Tops/Score)
Ken Griffey Jr. (1989 Upper Deck/Bowman/Fleer/Donruss)
Randy Johnson (1989 Upper Deck/Topps/Fleer/Donruss/Score)
Tony LaRussa (1964 Topps)

Greg Maddux (1987 Donruss/Leaf)
Pedro Martinez (1991 Upper Deck Final Edition)
Mike Piazza (1992 Bowman)
John Smoltz (1988 Fleer Update)
Frank Thomas (1990 Leaf/Bowman/Topps/Score)
Joe Torre (1962 Topps)

dougscats
03-05-2016, 03:36 PM
Thanks for pointing that out, Peter.
I was looking for them in alphabetical order and missed the new additions at the bottom.

And thanks again, Phil.
I see there were several other new inductees that I left out.

Peter_Spaeth
03-05-2016, 03:39 PM
I guess it's not clear to me why a 1989 Topps Traded Griffey wouldn't also be a rookie card, for example, since he was not in the Topps regular series. It's still a 1989 card and while it was released later than the regular issue sets from that year, if priority within the year matters we would have to research which of the regular sets was issued first and only pick the first one. Just my opinion.

bcbgcbrcb
03-05-2016, 03:54 PM
After 1981, when Fleer and Donruss entered the game along with Topps, more and more sets were produced throughout the year by the card manufacturers. Anything issued during the same calendar year would also be considered a rookie card if a base card (not an all-star card, league leader card, etc.) from a set such as Topps Traded, Fleer Update, Donruss "The Rookies", Upper Deck Final Edition, etc. In recent years, there are so many and all are so plentiful that I don't bother making an exhaustive list. If you are doing a BB HOF RC collection, you may only be looking for one example for each anyway.

So, yes, the 1989 Topps Traded Griffey is definitely a rookie card example, also known as an XRC because it comes from a traded/extended set issued later in the year via hobby sources only.

pokerplyr80
03-05-2016, 03:58 PM
I have just updated my master list with the rookie cards for the past three years' inductees which were missing. I have not done extensive research on these as I had in the past because I no longer collect them and have no vested interest other than to help out fellow board members with their collections. If you feel I have made an error, please post here and we can discuss and I can always update the master list again as necessary.

Thanks again to everyone for your interest in this topic.

I don't feel you made an error, but would like to ask why the 36 world wide gum over the Joe dimaggio zeenut? I have heard others claim the 38 goudey is his true rc. I would like to pick up a dimaggio rc but want to make sure I get the one accepted by most as the rc.

Peter_Spaeth
03-05-2016, 03:58 PM
Phil in that case I think you may be missing several Griffeys and Madduxes from your list. Griffey had at least a Topps and Score Traded and Maddux had a Fleer Update and Topps Traded. Also Piazza had a 92 Fleer Update.

bcbgcbrcb
03-05-2016, 04:03 PM
Jesse:

There are 2 different Zeenut J. DiMaggio cards, one issued in 1934 and the other in 1935. Both picture him in his San Francisco Seals minor league uniform and are minor league cards, thus excluding them from rookie card potential. Both are pre-rookie cards, however, and many collectors desire them more so than the 1936 DiMaggio. You have to collect what you like but if you want to stick with the strict definition of a rookie card, the Zeenuts do not qualify. The same holds true for many other MLB HOF'ers from the 1910's - 1930's, who appeared in Zeenuts sets over the years.

pokerplyr80
03-05-2016, 04:08 PM
Thanks for the quick response Phil that makes sense. I am a fan of both cards and hope to have one of each eventually. I collect HOF RCs though and a dimaggio rc would fit in nicely.

itjclarke
03-05-2016, 04:12 PM
Jesse:

There are 2 different Zeenut J. DiMaggio cards, one issued in 1934 and the other in 1935. Both picture him in his San Francisco Seals minor league uniform and are minor league cards, thus excluding them from rookie card potential. Both are pre-rookie cards, however, and many collectors desire them more so than the 1936 DiMaggio. You have to collect what you like but if you want to stick with the strict definition of a rookie card, the Zeenuts do not qualify. The same holds true for many other MLB HOF'ers from the 1910's - 1930's, who appeared in Zeenuts sets over the years.

I definitely get the idea of pre-rookie vs. MLB rookie cards, but then wonder why a card like Kid Nichols' N172 is considered a rookie as it pre-dates his big league career. What makes this different than any Zeenut pre-rookie card?

Will say, I'm more than happy to own either, or both, or many versions of these early cards, rookie or not... Zeenut Dimaggio, 1936 R312 Dimaggio, 1938 Goudey Dimaggio, etc.

bcbgcbrcb
03-05-2016, 04:15 PM
Peter:

I knowingly included just regular issues and left out update sets whenever that was the situation. All would still be rookie cards as I mentioned previously.

For the most part all of the post-1948 HOF RC's are pretty well identified in Beckett's price guides. There are a few cases where my choice may differ from theirs, but for the most part, a collector can look up any post-1948 baseball card and if deemed a rookie card, it will have the RC designation in the catalogue. As more and more of the modern era guys start getting into the Hall that have 10 - 20+ rookie cards each, it doesn't make sense to me listing 20+ different choices so I pick a few of the best ones and leave it at that. Again, just about every choice is plentiful and easy to obtain.

The real value in this master list and the reason that I created it was for the pre-1948 rookie cards as almost none are identified in the guides, at least not correctly. When I spoke with Bob Lemke at one time about the possibility of adding some, he wasn't comfortable with doing it so things never moved forward.

bcbgcbrcb
03-05-2016, 04:20 PM
Ian:

The Nichols question is a good one and also applies to Clark Griffith in the same way from the same N172 set.

My view on it is that the N172 set, while it does contain a number of minor league team appearances, has a huge following for it's Major League appearances and I consider the overall set to be a Major League set and, thusly, allow the Nichols and Griffith cards to be considered rookie cards. Others have disagreed with me in the past, I could live with it either way, just my choice.

The Zeenuts, of course, were strictly minor league cards.

Peter_Spaeth
03-05-2016, 04:31 PM
Ian:

The Nichols question is a good one and also applies to Clark Griffith in the same way from the same N172 set.

My view on it is that the N172 set, while it does contain a number of minor league team appearances, has a huge following for it's Major League appearances and I consider the overall set to be a Major League set and, thusly, allow the Nichols and Griffith cards to be considered rookie cards. Others have disagreed with me in the past, I could live with it either way, just my choice.

The Zeenuts, of course, were strictly minor league cards.

67 Topps Venezuela was mostly or overall a major league set I think, so why not Bobby Cox?

Peter_Spaeth
03-05-2016, 07:45 PM
Jesse:

There are 2 different Zeenut J. DiMaggio cards, one issued in 1934 and the other in 1935. Both picture him in his San Francisco Seals minor league uniform and are minor league cards, thus excluding them from rookie card potential. Both are pre-rookie cards, however, and many collectors desire them more so than the 1936 DiMaggio. You have to collect what you like but if you want to stick with the strict definition of a rookie card, the Zeenuts do not qualify. The same holds true for many other MLB HOF'ers from the 1910's - 1930's, who appeared in Zeenuts sets over the years.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Zeenut-PCL-With-Coupon-Joe-DiMaggio-ROOKIE-RC-PSA-2-GD-PWCC-/351662807599?hash=item51e0bc9a2f:g:WYEAAOSwUuFWz4l b

Don't see them with a coupon often.

bcbgcbrcb
03-05-2016, 09:10 PM
Thanks for the correction on the Cox RC, Peter. I am making the change right now to the master list.

itjclarke
03-06-2016, 03:10 AM
Ian:

The Nichols question is a good one and also applies to Clark Griffith in the same way from the same N172 set.

My view on it is that the N172 set, while it does contain a number of minor league team appearances, has a huge following for it's Major League appearances and I consider the overall set to be a Major League set and, thusly, allow the Nichols and Griffith cards to be considered rookie cards. Others have disagreed with me in the past, I could live with it either way, just my choice.

The Zeenuts, of course, were strictly minor league cards.

Thanks for the explanation Phil, makes sense enough. I'm not trying to complete anything, nor do I worry about the definitions within my collection, but I do have fun picking up some of the earliest examples of HOFers I can. Thanks to the board, and in large part this list for opening my eyes to some cards I'd have otherwise never gone after--- R315 Hubbell, Chong Rickey Henderson, Dietsche Cobb, Bond Bread Robinsons, etc.

JMANOS
03-06-2016, 09:03 AM
I have both on a auction on the BST ending tonight (nice plug for me) This is the rookie card per Old Cardboard's website?? There are 2 variations to the 1908 PC...

pawpawdiv9
03-06-2016, 11:09 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Zeenut-PCL-With-Coupon-Joe-DiMaggio-ROOKIE-RC-PSA-2-GD-PWCC-/351662807599?hash=item51e0bc9a2f:g:WYEAAOSwUuFWz4l b

Don't see them with a coupon often.
Yep I saw that one and wow!!!
I never liked the Goudey

SCP auctions had a PSA 2(MK) 'throwing' with coupon 4/26/2015 sell for 10,278, which sold in REA in 2013 for 14,220 when it was 1st discovered.
http://catalog.scpauctions.com/1933_36_ZEENUT_JOE_DIMAGGIO__THROWING__PSA_GD_2_MK-LOT30683.aspx
Goodwin had a PSA 2(MK) 'batting' w/o coupon autographed 1of1 on 7/30/2010 for 4327.53 it looks like.

pokerplyr80
03-06-2016, 01:14 PM
Yep I saw that one and wow!!!
I never liked the Goudey

SCP auctions had a PSA 2(MK) 'throwing' with coupon 4/26/2015 sell for 10,278, which sold in REA in 2013 for 14,220 when it was 1st discovered.
http://catalog.scpauctions.com/1933_36_ZEENUT_JOE_DIMAGGIO__THROWING__PSA_GD_2_MK-LOT30683.aspx
Goodwin had a PSA 2(MK) 'batting' w/o coupon autographed 1of1 on 7/30/2010 for 4327.53 it looks like.

I agree, I don't like the big heads and design of the 38 goudey. That zeenut is a pretty cool card but a little out of my range at this point.

h2oya311
03-06-2016, 01:50 PM
I have both on a auction on the BST ending tonight (nice plug for me) This is the rookie card per Old Cardboard's website?? There are 2 variations to the 1908 PC...

Actually, there are at least four variations, but who's counting? Bulkeley also has some pretty cool campaign pins that pre-date the 1908 PCs.

philhjr1
10-25-2016, 05:01 PM
Does anyone know of what card would be considered Jacob Ruppert's rookie card for PSA's registry purpose? The 1962 Topps card, does not count/qualify for Jacob Ruppert. I have been going back and forth with PSA for 2 weeks now, and they flat out refuse to allow it. They also offered up no other suggestions. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

h2oya311
10-25-2016, 07:17 PM
I like this one for Ruppert - a 1901 Cabinet photo. No idea what PSA would consider to be his rookie, but it would likely be a HOF Plaque card or something of that nature.

http://photos.imageevent.com/derekgranger/hofrookies1/websize/1901%20Ruppert.jpg

bcbgcbrcb
10-25-2016, 08:59 PM
For traditional cards, I would also go with the 1962 Topps. I understand the issue and PSA's position, the same goes for Tom Yawkey's rookie card appearing in the 1959 Fleer Ted Williams set.

Derek's piece is far superior and is one of Ruppert's earliest, if not the earliest, but doesn't qualify as a rookie card.

It's been a long time since I researched this but I recall Ruppert's beer company putting out a premium picturing a couple/few Yankees along with Ruppert. I think it was sometime during the late 1930's, maybe early 1940's. Again, not a card, but a nice option as a career contemporary piece and not as impossible to find as Derek's.

triwak
10-25-2016, 09:53 PM
That's fantastic, Derek!!

Leon
10-26-2016, 09:32 AM
That's fantastic, Derek!!

Agree. Phenomenal clarity.

h2oya311
10-26-2016, 11:49 AM
Agree. Phenomenal clarity.

Thanks Phil, Ken and Leon!

As for the question about PSA, I would suspect that they would consider his "rookie" card to be from the 1975 TCMA 1927 Yankees set, although it appears that only one Ruppert has been graded thus far by PSA.

philhjr1
10-26-2016, 04:10 PM
Thanks Phil, Ken and Leon!

As for the question about PSA, I would suspect that they would consider his "rookie" card to be from the 1975 TCMA 1927 Yankees set, although it appears that only one Ruppert has been graded thus far by PSA.

thanks you and everyone else on this, and you are indeed correct, after hounding PSA and Beckett again last night and this morning, they did claim that the 1975 TCMA is considered his "rookie" card.

philhjr1
10-26-2016, 04:12 PM
For traditional cards, I would also go with the 1962 Topps. I understand the issue and PSA's position, the same goes for Tom Yawkey's rookie card appearing in the 1959 Fleer Ted Williams set.

Derek's piece is far superior and is one of Ruppert's earliest, if not the earliest, but doesn't qualify as a rookie card.

It's been a long time since I researched this but I recall Ruppert's beer company putting out a premium picturing a couple/few Yankees along with Ruppert. I think it was sometime during the late 1930's, maybe early 1940's. Again, not a card, but a nice option as a career contemporary piece and not as impossible to find as Derek's.

Thanks Phil on the insight as always, I am currently having that very question with PSA/Beckett in regards to the 1959 Fleer Ted Williams Set for Tom Yawkey, at least for that one, they were on the fence on and had to do more "research" on, the Ruppert one, they flat out said no on the spot. Ill report back what the response is.

dougscats
10-26-2016, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb View Post
For traditional cards, I would also go with the 1962 Topps. I understand the issue and PSA's position, the same goes for Tom Yawkey's rookie card appearing in the 1959 Fleer Ted Williams set.

What is the issue? I don't understand PSA's position. Can you explain?
Why wouldn't the '62 Topps Ruppert [or the '59 Fleer Williams] be the rookie card? What is the grading companies' rationale?

Thanks Phil.

bcbgcbrcb
10-27-2016, 10:30 AM
Hey Doug:

Although those guys are pictured and identified on the respective cards, they are not solely attributed to them but are looked at more as highlights from Ruth and Williams' careers. Good enough for me, I would stick with those two as rookie cards.

Try to refer PSA to the OldCardboard webpage for Hall of Fame Rookie Cards for Yawkey. Ruppert is not included as he was elected after 2010.

jimjim
07-16-2017, 08:19 AM
Any updates for the 2017 induction?

dougscats
03-14-2018, 05:12 PM
This is a service message for all members of Net54 who are not familiar with Phil Gary's Hall-of-Fame Rookie Card List.

As a friendly plug, I might also mention that Phil has recently completed writing his "4-Sport Hall of Fame Rookie Cards Guide."
Anyone interested in purchasing a copy can contact him.

Can you give us an update that includes the most recent inductees on this List?

I should be closing in on 100 H-o-F RC's once I get the new guys if they're not too rare.
Thanks, Phil, for your great work.

bcbgcbrcb
03-15-2018, 09:45 AM
Thank you for the support, Doug.

For a number of reasons, I am no longer an active collector in the vintage baseball memorabilia arena. I have already sold off my Baseball Hall of Fame Rookies collection and still have a few Negro League pieces left but that's it. I stopped collecting early in 2014 so I have not been keeping up with the more recent HOF inductees nor what their rookie cards might be.

If someone else on the board would like to send me the updated info that would take us from my original 2011 list to the present, I would be happy to add to my master list at the beginning of this thread.

Maybe one day, I'll be able to pick back up again with collecting vintage baseball memorabilia. It was a great 10 year run from 2004 to 2014, including 9 Nationals in a row that I was able to attend. Net54Baseball was a huge part of my daily life as well, providing lots of entertainment and many avenues to further my collection.

h2oya311
03-15-2018, 10:16 AM
Phil -

As a recipient of a large portion of your former collection, I am happy to carry on the research and update with the most recent inductees. In fact, I’ve been doing that for a number of years already!

Thank you for all your contributions to date!!

aljurgela
03-15-2018, 10:54 AM
Phil -

As a recipient of a large portion of your former collection, I am happy to carry on the research and update with the most recent inductees. In fact, Iíve been doing that for a number of years already!

Thank you for all your contributions to date!!

+1

w600
03-16-2018, 10:53 AM
Alexander.. Hard for me to consider a gaming card a rookie card. I prefer 1914 Fatima/Cracker Jack

Anson...1987 N172 included

Walter Johnson and Tris Speaker... I get it if you want to consider Postcards rookie's I dont.. for me 1909 Ramly/T206 and 1909 T206/Caramel for Speaker.

Christy Matthewson.. 1903 W600 Type 2.. It actually predated Breisch by 6 months.

Wagner.. 1897 Reccius was a promo card.. Still a controversial card.. I respect the Wagner 1902 W600 as Rookie..

Cy Young.. 1890 Ryder Cabinet, 1891-92 Ryder in SCP auction now (first uniform), 1893 Pifer was actually released before Just so. They used Pifer photo for Just so.

Team Cards I also don't count..They were promo for players many times the player didn't even start with the team that year but had a picture in uniform.

Great list..

triwak
03-16-2018, 01:25 PM
Phil -

As a recipient of a large portion of your former collection, I am happy to carry on the research and update with the most recent inductees. In fact, Iíve been doing that for a number of years already!

Thank you for all your contributions to date!!

+2

oldjudge
03-16-2018, 01:34 PM
Alexander.. Hard for me to consider a gaming card a rookie card. I prefer 1914 Fatima/Cracker Jack

Anson...1987 N172 included

Walter Johnson and Tris Speaker... I get it if you want to consider Postcards rookie's I dont.. for me 1909 Ramly/T206 and 1909 T206/Caramel for Speaker.

Christy Matthewson.. 1903 W600 Type 2.. It actually predated Breisch by 6 months.

Wagner.. 1897 Reccius was a promo card.. Still a controversial card.. I respect the Wagner 1902 W600 as Rookie..

Cy Young.. 1890 Ryder Cabinet, 1891-92 Ryder in SCP auction now (first uniform), 1893 Pifer was actually released before Just so. They used Pifer photo for Just so.

Team Cards I also don't count..They were promo for players many times the player didn't even start with the team that year but had a picture in uniform.

Great list..

Anson has many cards prior to his 1888 Old Judge(he was not in the 1887 issue ). The earliest I know of is the 1872 Philadelphia NA composite cabinet.The NA was a major league. He also appears in plenty of Chicago cabinets that predate his Old Judge.

benjulmag
03-16-2018, 01:38 PM
Alexander.. Hard for me to consider a gaming card a rookie card. I prefer 1914 Fatima/Cracker Jack

Anson...1987 N172 included

Walter Johnson and Tris Speaker... I get it if you want to consider Postcards rookie's I dont.. for me 1909 Ramly/T206 and 1909 T206/Caramel for Speaker.

Christy Matthewson.. 1903 W600 Type 2.. It actually predated Breisch by 6 months.

Wagner.. 1897 Reccius was a promo card.. Still a controversial card.. I respect the Wagner 1902 W600 as Rookie..

Cy Young.. 1890 Ryder Cabinet, 1891-92 Ryder in SCP auction now (first uniform), 1893 Pifer was actually released before Just so. They used Pifer photo for Just so.

Team Cards I also don't count..They were promo for players many times the player didn't even start with the team that year but had a picture in uniform.

Great list..

If studio cabinets are included, wouldn't Anson's rookie card be his 1874 Suddards and Fennemore studio cabinet? Here's a link to the card. https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1874-philadelphia-athletics-original-team-portraits-lot-of-12-with-anson-reach/a/7028-81174.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

h2oya311
03-16-2018, 02:23 PM
Here's my list for Anson:

> 1869 Marshalltown Team Cabinet Photo
> 1869 Notre Dame Team CDV
> 1871 Rockford Forest City's Team Cabinet
> 1872 CDV/Trade Card
> 1872 Philadelphia NA Composite Cabinet
> 1874 Suddard's and Fennemore Cabinet (same images as 1874 Harper's Woodcut)
> 1874 Harper's Weekly Woodcut
> 1879 Robinson Chicago Team Cabinet
> 1886 Lorillard's Chicago Team Cabinet
> 1887 Buchner GC
> 1887-88 Allen & Ginter
> 1888 Old Judge

I'll be setting up a link to all HOFers and the earliest images for each. I'm pretty sure I have an image for each of the items listed above, but if not, I apologize in advance.

oldjudge
03-16-2018, 02:27 PM
Derek: also 1882 Chicago Photographic Studio team cabinet. I have an image if you need it. Your list confirms that the 1872 cards are his rookies. The previous ones were not major league appearances.

aaroncc
03-16-2018, 02:54 PM
There is a couple different Stevens Cabinets 88-89 I believe.

benjulmag
03-16-2018, 03:14 PM
Here's my list for Anson:

> 1869 Marshalltown Team Cabinet Photo
> 1869 Notre Dame Team CDV
> 1871 Rockford Forest City's Team Cabinet
> 1872 CDV/Trade Card
> 1872 Philadelphia NA Composite Cabinet
> 1874 Suddard's and Fennemore Cabinet (same images as 1874 Harper's Woodcut)
> 1874 Harper's Weekly Woodcut
> 1879 Robinson Chicago Team Cabinet
> 1886 Lorillard's Chicago Team Cabinet
> 1887 Buchner GC
> 1887-88 Allen & Ginter
> 1888 Old Judge

I'll be setting up a link to all HOFers and the earliest images for each. I'm pretty sure I have an image for each of the items listed above, but if not, I apologize in advance.

I've never seen the 1869 Notre Dame Cdv, nor for that matter ever heard of it. Does anybody have an image?

Is the 1872 Cdv/Trade Card the same image as the 1872 Philadelphia Composite Cabinet? I've seen the Trade Card. If it is not the same image, does anybody have an image of the 1872 Philadelphia composite?

There is an 1874 Philadelphia cabinet, as well as 1876 and 1878 Chicago cabinets.

barrysloate
03-16-2018, 03:56 PM
While the 1874 Philadelphia cabinet is Anson's first solo appearance on a photographic card, his first appearance as a professional is on the 1871 Forest Citys of Rockford CdV. Forest Citys was an inaugural team in the National Association, baseball's first professional league.

The problem is we have no clear definition of what a rookie card is.

orly57
03-16-2018, 04:40 PM
Alexander.. Hard for me to consider a gaming card a rookie card. I prefer 1914 Fatima/Cracker Jack

Anson...1987 N172 included

Walter Johnson and Tris Speaker... I get it if you want to consider Postcards rookie's I dont.. for me 1909 Ramly/T206 and 1909 T206/Caramel for Speaker.

Christy Matthewson.. 1903 W600 Type 2.. It actually predated Breisch by 6 months.

Wagner.. 1897 Reccius was a promo card.. Still a controversial card.. I respect the Wagner 1902 W600 as Rookie..

Cy Young.. 1890 Ryder Cabinet, 1891-92 Ryder in SCP auction now (first uniform), 1893 Pifer was actually released before Just so. They used Pifer photo for Just so.

Team Cards I also don't count..They were promo for players many times the player didn't even start with the team that year but had a picture in uniform.

Great list..

You consider a W600 a rookie in the case of Wagner, but a postcard isn't a rookie in the case of Wajo? Other than your handle being W600, what logical reason can you give why a W600 can be a rookie, but a postcard cannot? I am totally fine with considering a W600 a rookie card because I disagree with the sentiment that the card must come in packs or be a certain size to be considered a "card." But it seems like a strange position to take when you say that an oversized premium is a "card" for purposes of assigning a player's rookie, but a postcard is not.

packs
03-16-2018, 04:48 PM
In the case of Walter though isn't the postcard in question a minor league issue?

orly57
03-16-2018, 04:52 PM
In the case of Walter though isn't the postcard in question a minor league issue?

Yes and no. The "Weiser Wonder" is a minor league PC, but the 1908 Rose is not. The Rose pre-dates the Ramly.

w600
03-16-2018, 05:02 PM
You consider a W600 a rookie in the case of Wagner, but a postcard isn't a rookie in the case of Wajo? Other than your handle being W600, what logical reason can you give why a W600 can be a rookie, but a postcard cannot? I am totally fine with considering a W600 a rookie card because I disagree with the sentiment that the card must come in packs or be a certain size to be considered a "card." But it seems like a strange position to take when you say that an oversized premium is a "card" for purposes of assigning a player's rookie, but a postcard is not.

W600 was issued as cards for 9 years. Nothing different than any other card company. The sets and years were defined. They were just oversized.Postcards to me are similar to postcards now. People can take pictures with there family and send letters or greetings. If Mike trout had a postcard 1909 or a page in a magazine in those years, they are not "ROOKIE CARDS"...

Cabinet Cards are a bit different. W600 are not Cabinets. Cabinet Card is similar to how cards are made now. Photo with cardboard back. Although, they have defined sets and stature. Cabinet Cards are loose ends a bit. But if the year in the Cabinet Card matches the rookie year to me its his Rookie Card.

orly57
03-16-2018, 05:13 PM
W600 was issued as cards for 9 years. Nothing different than any other card company. The sets and years were defined. They were just oversized.Postcards to me are similar to postcards now. People can take pictures with there family and send letters or greetings. If Mike trout had a postcard 1909 or a page in a magazine in those years, they are not "ROOKIE CARDS"...

Cabinet Cards are a bit different. W600 are not Cabinets. Cabinet Card is similar to how cards are made now. Photo with cardboard back. Although, they have defined sets and stature. Cabinet Cards are loose ends a bit. But if the year in the Cabinet Card matches the rookie year to me its his Rookie Card.

It sounds to me like you should probably brush up a bit on post cards before making such sweeping commentary. I think you are confusing RPPC's (real photo postcards) with postcards that absolutely have defined sets and years and are catalogued. Like a W600 is a defined set in a catalog, so is the Rose Co (PC760), Novelty Cutlery (pc805) etc. Real photo postcards, on the other hand, were pics taken by individuals and put onto cardboard. Those do not have defined sets or years. But there is a HUGE difference between the two. I think certain RPPCs are great, but I too am a bit bothered by the fact that they aren't from defined sets or years. I don't own any largely for that reason (though I wouldn't mind a 1915 Ruth RPPC too much). But I do own quite a few PCs from legit catalogued sets. The Rose Wajo is most certainly part of a defined set from defined years. And if mike trout had a postcard from 1909, it would definitely be considered a PRE PRE PRE rookie.

Bicem
03-16-2018, 07:19 PM
RPPC's can also be from well defined sets like Bregstone, Underwood & Underwood, Rotograph, Cleveland Souvenir Shop etc.

So really two types, private one-off's like Orlando describes above and ones mass produced for sets and promotional reasons.

oldjudge
03-16-2018, 07:37 PM
Hi Corey! I have the 1872 Wright and Gould trade card of Philadelphia. That was the composite I was referring to.

Baseball Rarities
03-16-2018, 08:20 PM
IMHO, Rose Co. postcards were definitely meant to have been collected like baseball cards at the time. If not, I do not think that the set would have included so many subjects. Production began during the summer of 1908 and originally included 12 members for each of the 16 teams, for a total of 192 different players. They were not only offered individually by retailers, but also in team sets of 12. At the time of production, this was one of the largest and most comprehensive "sets" ever made.

Baseball Rarities
03-16-2018, 08:31 PM
Yes and no. The "Weiser Wonder" is a minor league PC, but the 1908 Rose is not. The Rose pre-dates the Ramly.

Orlando - the "Weiser Wonder" postcard that you reference was actually issued in 1910. The original real photo postcard (without title) that is pictured below was issued in 1907, before he was known by that nickname.

Bicem
03-16-2018, 08:35 PM
I know you've heard it from me before but absolutely incredible postcard.

Baseball Rarities
03-16-2018, 08:47 PM
I know you've heard it from me before but absolutely incredible postcard.

Thanks Jeff. Honestly, that means a lot coming from you.

orly57
03-16-2018, 08:52 PM
Orlando - the "Weiser Wonder" postcard that you reference was actually issued in 1910. The original real photo postcard (without title) that is pictured below was issued in 1907, before he was known by that nickname.

I looked for yours in google, but couldn't find it.

benjulmag
03-16-2018, 10:06 PM
Hi Corey! I have the 1872 Wright and Gould trade card of Philadelphia. That was the composite I was referring to.

Thanks. That though is the one I am aware of. What then is the second 1872 team card of Anson referred to?

oldjudge
03-16-2018, 10:19 PM
Not sure, but would not be surprised if they are one and the same.

Baseball Rarities
03-16-2018, 10:30 PM
Thanks. That though is the one I am aware of. What then is the second 1872 team card of Anson referred to?

They are the same ďcard.Ē In Lipsetís collection forever before he sold it.

shagrotn77
03-17-2018, 12:01 AM
Has anyone been able to pinpoint a date of release for the Rabbit Maranville Boston Daily American Postcard? It was thought to be from 1912 for a while, but I've seen some people say 1914 is more likely.

Baseball Rarities
03-17-2018, 12:41 AM
Has anyone been able to pinpoint a date of release for the Rabbit Maranville Boston Daily American Postcard? It was thought to be from 1912 for a while, but I've seen some people say 1914 is more likely.

I think that that Maranville postcard is from a one card set that was probably issued in 1914. Obviously, it is a very rare postcard and I have never seen one that has been postmarked. Upon first glance, the 1912 Boston American Souvenir postcards have a similar look to the Maranville, but they actually have completely different layouts as far as the type is concerned. Also, Maranville did not play for the Braves until September of 1912. Plus, the 1912 set only included Red Sox players and were probably issued to commemorate their 1912 championship team. It would make sense that the Maranville card was instead created after the 1914 season to celebrate the Bravesí World Series victory.

Jim65
03-17-2018, 11:51 AM
Tom Seaver (1967 Topps)

Seaver's true rookie card is the 1967 Team Issued Postcard, which was released before Topps last series in 1967

shagrotn77
03-17-2018, 01:17 PM
I think that that Maranville postcard is from a one card set that was probably issued in 1914. Obviously, it is a very rare postcard and I have never seen one that has been postmarked. Upon first glance, the 1912 Boston American Souvenir postcards have a similar look to the Maranville, but they actually have completely different layouts as far as the type is concerned. Also, Maranville did not play for the Braves until September of 1912. Plus, the 1912 set only included Red Sox players and were probably issued to commemorate their 1912 championship team. It would make sense that the Maranville card was instead created after the 1914 season to celebrate the Bravesí World Series victory.

That all makes sense to me. Thank you, Kevin.

darwinbulldog
03-17-2018, 05:00 PM
I'd say Speaker's rookie card is E254. I believe all of his other appearances on 1909-1911 issues have been confirmed to be from 1910 or later.

h2oya311
03-20-2018, 12:14 PM
I've never seen the 1869 Notre Dame Cdv, nor for that matter ever heard of it. Does anybody have an image?

Is the 1872 Cdv/Trade Card the same image as the 1872 Philadelphia Composite Cabinet? I've seen the Trade Card. If it is not the same image, does anybody have an image of the 1872 Philadelphia composite?

There is an 1874 Philadelphia cabinet, as well as 1876 and 1878 Chicago cabinets.

I believe the image of the 1869 Notre Dame CDV was on the following website, which now appears to be dead:

https://capanson.com/index.html

Anyone know how to retrieve old information/photos off defunct websites? Anyone know the previous host/owner of that website?

benjulmag
03-20-2018, 04:40 PM
I believe the image of the 1869 Notre Dame CDV was on the following website, which now appears to be dead:

https://capanson.com/index.html

Anyone know how to retrieve old information/photos off defunct websites? Anyone know the previous host/owner of that website?

Thanks for trying to locate it Derek. I'm very curious to see it.

bcbgcbrcb
03-21-2018, 02:36 PM
I just made a couple of updates to my original posted list today. Individuals updated were Ty Cobb and Josh Gibson.

Bicem
03-21-2018, 03:23 PM
You could remove the 07-09 date range for those Cobb postcards, I know you were referring to the Dietsche range but only the 1907 version would anyone consider his rookie.

Dewey
03-21-2018, 10:00 PM
Anyone know how to retrieve old information/photos off defunct websites? Anyone know the previous host/owner of that website?
Archive.org wayback machine. No 1869 photo though. Link below has some cool pics though.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080517092458/http://www.capanson.com/baseball_cards.html

h2oya311
03-22-2018, 08:12 AM
Archive.org wayback machine. No 1869 photo though. Link below has some cool pics though.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080517092458/http://www.capanson.com/baseball_cards.html

Very cool! Sad to see that the Notre Dame CDV wasn’t on there. Just remembered that I had asked some questions before about Anson a few years back. Here’s an old thread. Looks like Brad W. (a member) was the owner of that site:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=208367

I reached out to him to see if he knows of the Notre Dame CDV I have listed.

jerrys
03-25-2018, 02:35 PM
Mark Lewis introduced the idea of collecting the first year card of players in his CPU Card Prices Update magazine in 1979-1980. The idea flourished. There was no stipulation as to size, shape or material of a rookie card; or whether the card should be a solo picture of a player or to picture him surrounded by team mates.

My Rookie card: The first publication of a card with a picture of an unaccompanied player.

Branch Rickey: 1906 SL postcard (accepted) as his rookie card.

310070

But Rickey's first card is the 1907 W600. None are known to exist. But it is "his" rookie card - there is no substitute.



Note: The Rose Company commenced distribution of all its first run postcards - 12 players from each of 16 teams - in August, 1908. Subsequent postcards were published of different players and backup postcards of players from the first run. All these later produced postcards were printed with only the player's names - no associated team was added - no team postcards.

dougscats
05-04-2018, 07:54 AM
I understand that Phil is no longer involved in his research.

So, Derek, as you've offered,
can you post us an update on the RC's of newly-inducted hall-of-famers, from where Phil's list leaves off?

I, and others, I believe, would appreciate it; thanks.

h2oya311
05-04-2018, 07:23 PM
Hi Doug -

I'll jump on this very soon...I have information on each HOFer as well as some updates to Phil's incredible work. But I struggle with the consensus definition of a "rookie" and of a "card" (since there is no consensus). To get around this, I was thinking of modifying the table to include multiple cards/photos to ensure that nothing is missed and folks can form their own opinion about what qualifies or does not. Since I have stored images of most of these cards as well, I was tinkering with the idea of adding a list and photo of each known "rookie" / "pre-rookie" item to my imageevent webpage. This might be the best course of action, but will require a bit of time to complete. I've been doing the leg-work for years, but just haven't put it all together in one place.

I'll spend some time over the next week or two to see if I can get something up-and-running for all to enjoy.

Baseball Rarities
05-04-2018, 08:13 PM
I'll jump on this very soon...I have information on each HOFer as well as some updates to Phil's incredible work. But I struggle with the consensus definition of a "rookie" and of a "card" (since there is no consensus). To get around this, I was thinking of modifying the table to include multiple cards/photos to ensure that nothing is missed and folks can form their own opinion about what qualifies or does not.

Totally agree with your take. I cannot wait to see it all.