Mamamia! Checkout this CU Thread regarding Waverly82

[WhenItWasAHobby]

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=829721

[Doug]

Any guy that puts "God Bless You All. The Lord Loves You!" in the auction description when selling stuff like this is just asking to get struck by lightning. :rolleyes:

[vintagetoppsguy]

Waverly had a '61 set break last week and I bought one card from him. I knew of his reputation beforehand, so I will check the card over very well.

[Leon]

Still trying to figure out who got the worst of that thread? :confused:

[vintagetoppsguy]

Still trying to figure out who got the worst of that thread? :confused:

That's typical of the CU board though. Chris started a great thread to warn others of Waverly82 and he gets bashed. Go figure? Chris is a very upstanding guy. Awhile back I posted on the B/S/T that I was looking for '55 Topps and he sent me a near set and told me to pick out the ones I wanted and to ship him back the others. He didn't even know me and trusted me that much. He made a customer for life.

[jezzeaepi]

Do yourself a BIG favor and return the Waverly cards.

Before I knew of his reputation I bought about a half dozen cards from him. When they showed up, they all smelled like strong chemicals so I returned them.

Flabbergasted at what went down, I spent a few weeks monitoring his auctions, and was finally able to find *one* the ebay account that he uses to purchase sets. http://www.ebay.com/itm/120765683288 (He must have several more because this one went unused for a while)

If you look at the sets he purchases, they are always closer to exmt. There are often graded cards that he pops out of holders(5s and 6's). Next he micro trims, colors, and does some sort of chemical soaking with the cards. Finally, he takes a scan that is just small enough to make the rest of the imperfections hard to see.

This guy essentially destroys an entire set of 50-60's baseball cards every week. It makes me sick. How many others are doing this out there? What sellers of raw vintage can you trust on ebay?

[CharleyBrown]

Didn't know about waverly's past...

Bought my '60 Yaz and '60 McCovey RCs from him... both came back as PSA 6s... thought the Yaz was better, but I guess I should count my blessings that the card didn't come back as trimmed or altered.

I'm starting to feel like it's not even worth trying to buy raw cards off eBay at this point.

I saw Spence actually bought some cards from waverly as well.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

......but I gave him the benefit of a doubt someone else was the problem. Here's an e-mail memorializing our last bit of business.


FROM: ERIC BREITENBACH
TO: Dan Markel
Sunday, September 23, 2007 3:06 PM

Dan, I'm sorry you are not happy with the cards and, as I've learned now, many others in the past. I will refund on the '71's and will understand if you take your business elsewhere. I am sorry, but I did not see a problem, and have had no complaints, and in all candor, very seldom do, especially considering the volume of cards I deal with. I do wish you all the best, and again, I apologize for any trouble this has caused. Thanks,
ERIC BREITENBACH
PO BOX ( Number removed for privacy)
DANVILLE, KY 40423

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Markel
To: Eric Breitenbach
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 11:09 AM
Subject: 1971 Topps cards

Eric,

Well I received the 1971 Topps cards, and just looking over them with a loop its obvious that at least half have been re-colored. I'll have to look over the rest very carefully this weekend to be sure the remainder aren't re-colored either.

I know I've warn out my welcome on returns from our last e-mail exchange over two months ago, and since then I've opted to just keep some bad cards I've received from you since then, like some over-graded and trimmed 1970s and 1961s. But I can't continue to take a beating like this, so I'll be sending back the bad '71s, probably on Monday.

Dan

[xdrx]

Didn't know about waverly's past...

Bought my '60 Yaz and '60 McCovey RCs from him... both came back as PSA 6s... thought the Yaz was better, but I guess I should count my blessings that the card didn't come back as trimmed or altered.

I'm starting to feel like it's not even worth trying to buy raw cards off eBay at this point.

I saw Spence actually bought some cards from waverly as well.

It seems to me like you can't trust buying raw cards that appear to be of higher quality (PSA 7+ maybe?) unless you know the seller. It really creates a cloud over this hobby to me. You have the grading industry with tons of power because they validate the high quality cards that command premium dollars. That premium, in turn, leads some dealers to buy nice cards and doctor them, trying to get some of that cash. That action, in turn, makes the grading industry all the more powerful, as the average collector has a tough time plunking down decently large bucks for a high end card that is not graded.

I don't know if the chicken or the egg came first here, but I'd sure like to know who is in bed with whom in this industry. I am very impressed with you guys who can sniff this stuff out with confidence, but my guess is that those of you who can are in the vast minority.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Unbelievable! CU/PSA deleted that thread.

Surely it wasn't because they were afraid of being sued? I seem to recall that Joe Orlando knows about the protective legal rights of message board sponsors since I know that Leon made him aware of that during an identity theft incident.

I hope I'm wrong here, but is it possible that PSA deleted the thread because they actually stand to profit more on the submission of EX-Mint cards that have been trimmed and recolored compared to shutting someone down who appears to be selling bad cards?

Or was it deleted because they would rather sweep it under the rug and perpetuate the myth that "everything is OK" rather than try to address these problems head on?

And people wonder why fraud is so rampant in this hobby.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Or was it deleted because they would rather sweep it under the rug and perpetuate the myth that "everything is OK" rather than try to address these problems head on?

You hit the nail on the head with this statement. In fact, I said "They (PSA) think they can sweep the problem under the rug by deleting a thread and it will go away - out of sight, out of mind" in this thread just a couple of weeks ago. That's PSA's way of dealing with things, yet people continue to drink their Kool Aid.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=140862&highlight=rug&page=3

That's what I like about Leon and this board. He has balls to stand up to situations like this (like the Piedmont thread) while the folks at PSA have absolutely no backbone.

[jezzeaepi]

This is actually not the first thread about waverly to be deleted on CU. I know of at least one other.

[Gr8Beldini]

Is this the same Waverly that's taken out full page ads in the major hobby publications throughout the years, or is this guy unrelated to the big dealer?

[yankeeno7]

You cant forget that PSA has a vested interest in anyone buying raw cards. They want those people to send in for grading, even if rejected, thats potential income for PSA. This message board or any other message board where there is no potential income probably will not be deleted.

I do not know what it takes for any message board to be responsible for what others post when it comes to being libel. I know lots of guys whose products are spoke about in a negative way like to threaten lawsuits. 99.9999% of them of full of hot air and empty threats.

[Waverly82widow]

Wow I am impressed by all the love & compassion in these posts (note the sarcasm of a widow reading about her husband). As I read all these, especially the bashing towards Eric putting "God Bless" on his auctions, is nothing short of sad. Eric WAS a reputable person in all aspects of his life. I know I lived it with him since we were 15 years old! He just recently died right after he turned 50 in the hospital from a rare type of liver cancer. I do pray, yes I said pray, this never happens to any of you to later have your family read this atrocity that bashes your good name. I know for fact as I was home with Eric daily, he did not & would not altar cards! I have been through all his stuff only to find out he was a better person than I even thought. He never ever was ashamed to share that he loved God & wanted to put it in his listings & always had. With all this said, I would seriously hope you would honor a man by deleting your posts. I already know Leon does not delete & that's his prerogative but you all have the chance to be honorable men & delete on your end these old posts. I found these, he had mentioned them at one time but never let it get him down. He did not focus on negativity & I know his grand kids would love to NOT read this one day. Would you want this to be your legacy? Thank u, gentlemen & enjoy life it seriously is way too short. Make the best of it like Eric/waverly82 did each moment til death.

[doug.goodman]

With all due respect to the now deceased Mr. Breitenbach, and his widow, and their family, in this the age of the internet, the reputation a person develops while living, is the reputation their family will "have" to read about if they choose to use google as a form of therapy after said person is gone.

So, what we all learn from this resurrected post, is that we should live life in such a way that we will allow our google searching grandchildren to enjoy our legacy.

Best regards,
Doug Goodman


PS - when you now google my name, note that I do not raise cadaver dogs.

[Exhibitman]

Wow I am impressed by all the love & compassion in these posts (note the sarcasm of a widow reading about her husband). As I read all these, especially the bashing towards Eric putting "God Bless" on his auctions, is nothing short of sad. Eric WAS a reputable person in all aspects of his life. I know I lived it with him since we were 15 years old! He just recently died right after he turned 50 in the hospital from a rare type of liver cancer. I do pray, yes I said pray, this never happens to any of you to later have your family read this atrocity that bashes your good name. I know for fact as I was home with Eric daily, he did not & would not altar cards! I have been through all his stuff only to find out he was a better person than I even thought. He never ever was ashamed to share that he loved God & wanted to put it in his listings & always had. With all this said, I would seriously hope you would honor a man by deleting your posts. I already know Leon does not delete & that's his prerogative but you all have the chance to be honorable men & delete on your end these old posts. I found these, he had mentioned them at one time but never let it get him down. He did not focus on negativity & I know his grand kids would love to NOT read this one day. Would you want this to be your legacy? Thank u, gentlemen & enjoy life it seriously is way too short. Make the best of it like Eric/waverly82 did each moment til death.

Lady [if that is what you are; for all any of us know you are him faking this whole thing to try and get the thread deleted so people won't find out the truth], your legacy is determined by how you lived your life. Sounds like your [alleged] spouse treated a lot of customers badly and generated his own bad press.

I hope no one changes a thing. Death isn't a dry cleaning for one's past. If you were a jackhole in life you deserve to be remembered that way. Perhaps his grandkids can learn from this thread that if you profess one set of morals while living another you will get called out for your hypocrisy and remembered for what you were not what you would like to have been seen as.

PS: the word is "alter" not "altar".

[bn2cardz]

I had nothing to do with this thread or the gentleman that was discussed originally, but I am disgusted at how this woman has been treated. It is fairly easy to believe her as there is an obituary of this man online (http://www.stithfuneralhome.net/cgi-bin/CompanyInternal?stdout+115+stithfuneralhome.net+20 90+4+9103:Lcgi_html/).

If this grieving woman came here hoping to hold on to her husband's memory a little longer no one can fault her that she may be hurt even more to see what other's feelings were towards this man she loved/loves. She made the request, I can believe, any grieving spouse would make in that time of loss. If you don't want to satisfy her request there is no reason to keep the thread going by posting how you don't agree with her.

[novakjr]

PS: the word is "alter" not "altar".

I noticed that too, but given their Holy-rolling nature, I thought maybe that was done on purpose..

Also religious beliefs, isn't a reason as to why someone would NOT doctor cards.. In fact, I almost think it could support it. Given the "idolatric" nature that fans often regard athletes, including cards/collectibles, it would actually make sense that an extreme religious person, might find acceptable, perhaps even encourage, the doctoring of cards, in order to taint our "false idols" and teach us the lesson that we are not living on the path of God.. And profit from said actions, could possibly be justified, under the guise of doing God's work, by clearing that path to righteousness for others..

Sorry, for that. Nothing against religion. I actually consider myself to be quite spiritual, BUT there are some extreme nuts, that I wouldn't put this thought process past.. I also don't want it to seem that I think that these were his/her intentions, but just discussing holes in the "religious defense" for someone not doctoring cards..

[novakjr]

I had nothing to do with this thread or the gentleman that was discussed originally, but I am disgusted at how this woman has been treated. It is fairly easy to believe her as there is an obituary of this man online (http://www.stithfuneralhome.net/cgi-bin/CompanyInternal?stdout+115+stithfuneralhome.net+20 90+4+9103:Lcgi_html/).

If this grieving woman came here hoping to hold on to her husband's memory a little longer no one can fault her that she may be hurt even more to see what other's feelings were towards this man she loved/loves. She made the request, I can believe, any grieving spouse would make in that time of loss. If you don't want to satisfy her request there is no reason to keep the thread going by posting how you don't agree with her.

I agree, and I feel for her. BUT I think this thread should stay up, just for the simple fact that unsold inventory may remain. And if she didn't know he was doctoring cards, then she doesn't know what left has been doctored. This thread warns others to still use caution when dealing with the account or people mentioned.

Maybe we could remove his name though, after some time. I think that seems a legitimate request, but to remove the thread altogether isn't acceptable for the time being..

[vintagetoppsguy]

I had nothing to do with this thread or the gentleman that was discussed originally, but I am disgusted at how this woman has been treated. It is fairly easy to believe her as there is an obituary of this man online (http://www.stithfuneralhome.net/cgi-bin/CompanyInternal?stdout+115+stithfuneralhome.net+20 90+4+9103:Lcgi_html/).

If this grieving woman came here hoping to hold on to her husband's memory a little longer no one can fault her that she may be hurt even more to see what other's feelings were towards this man she loved/loves. She made the request, I can believe, any grieving spouse would make in that time of loss. If you don't want to satisfy her request there is no reason to keep the thread going by posting how you don't agree with her.

Andy,

With all due respect, you're way off base here - in fact, not even in the ballpark. Waverly had a reputation of doctoring cards that goes back many, many years. Just go the the CU boards and search "Waverly" and you'll get several thread results, not one of them shed a good light on him. Here is one from over 8 years ago that speaks of his card doctoring...

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=482276&highlight_key=y&keyword1=waverly

Doug hit the nail on the head in his post. The reputation one develops while living is the one that will be remembered when they are gone. Besides, it's not like where bashing him after his death. If that was the case, you would have a valid point. But this thread is a few years old. Did everybody go back and edit their comments about Bruce after his passing?

David makes a valid point as well. Surely he has inventory left that will be sold at some point. People need to know that there is the possibiltiy of the cards being altered.

Last, if she wouldn't have bumped the thread, his name probably never would have been mentioned again on these boards.

David

**************************************

Edited to add: Read this eBay description as well...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-TOPPS-PETE-ROSE-RC-NMMT-MINT-bought-waverly82-/110680390198?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item19c510ba36#ht_213wt_1186

[steve B]

Ok, how did you get an Ebay item form 2011? usually when I look for one it's long gone.

Steve B

[bn2cardz]

Andy,

With all due respect, you're way off base here - in fact, not even in the ballpark.

Really?!?! I am off base for saying "If you don't want to satisfy her request there is no reason to keep the thread going by posting how you don't agree with her."

I NEVER said you should delete posts. In actuality I didn't even take a side. What I am saying is that there is no reason to lash out at the request of a mourning widow. If you don't agree with her request than move on. Especially since of the all the comments up til yours was not even from people in the original posts.

You can do whatever you want with your post as you are one of the original posts. I really don't care, but there is no reason why her post couldn't have just been the last of it. Or at maybe the most a post from previous posters, like yourself, stating that you respectfully decline to delete your previous post.

[Exhibitman]

Andy, silence can often be interpreted as consent or agreement. I have no idea if this dealer did the things of which he was accused. I have no idea whether she is legitimate or a troll. Neither matters. Regardless of whether someone is alive or dead, the posts made here are part of the history of the hobby that shouldn't be rewritten, especially since the people who made the original posts were victims of a fraud that they believe this dealer perpetrated, simply because the dealer died.

David is spot-on as well; had she not made her post this thread would have been long gone and forgotten absent a Google search. She knows Leon won't delete the thread ["I already know Leon does not delete & that's his prerogative"], so she decided to post something publicly to shame all of us [and I include myself in that "us" even though I had no part in the original discussion] by stating that "honorable" people would delete this "atrocity". When someone comes into our community making demands and calling names, pushback is to be expected.

[almostdone]

I find it a bit odd that she makes such a request but then has not been back on Net54 since. According to her stats in her profile the last time she visited the site was the same time she posted her only post. Sort of like a hit and run IMO.
Drew

[NolanRyan]

This thread made me want to evaluate every purchase that I made from Waverly. I didn't personally know him, but the statements in this thread concerned me on so many levels. From 2011 to March of 2012, I purchased, from Waverly82, 184 different vintage cards (mostly commons and minor stars) ranging from 1953-1969. Eight different transactions for a total of $1,663. After thoroughly inspecting every inch of the 184 cards, I concluded that two were trimmed and not one was altered, colored, soaked, or smelled of chemical. In fact, if he was altering cards, he did a horrible job on mine!! :) I am not implying that this guy never did anything that he is being accused of, but I am defending him on my personal transactions. The one thing that I continually found Waverly82 guilty of is "over grading" the conditions of the cards he sold. His definition of NM may not be consistent with that of many of us seasoned collectors. For that reason, I always placed my bids closer to the grade just below what his EBAY ad stated. Reading this thread has made me thankful for all the honest dealers that I have had the opportunity to buy from for these past 40 years.