Johnny Damon -HOF?

[bigtrain]

I like Johnny Damon as a player but never really thought of him as a Hall of Famer. Yet, at age 37 and with nearly 2700 hits, he is likely to crack the 3000 hit mark in a couple of years. He has averaged over 180 hits a year for 17 seasons, pretty impressive. I think of him as somewhat below HOF standards at this point but if he gets to 3000? What do you think?

[Mikehealer]

He throws like a girl.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I knew Johnny when he was at Class A Wilmington in 1993, he was a great person and autograph signer as well back then (not sure about his signing habits today). That being said, I don't really think he belongs in the Hall, he has been a very good player for a long time but not quite at that level IMHO.

[novakjr]

I like Johnny Damon as a player but never really thought of him as a Hall of Famer. Yet, at age 37 and with nearly 2700 hits, he is likely to crack the 3000 hit mark in a couple of years. He has averaged over 180 hits a year for 17 seasons, pretty impressive. I think of him as somewhat below HOF standards at this point but if he gets to 3000? What do you think?

I think Damon is VERY borderline. If he gets 3000, I think he gets in. I'm not sure he'll get there though. There were a few players that I thought at one point were locks for 3000, just never got there.. Baines and Dawson are the first two that come to mind.. There's a good chance that Damon may end up with a NL team as a 4th OF/1B/Pinch hitter, to be used as a DH for interleague play and for WS hopefuls. Kinda like Giambi has been used in Colo...

I'd say Damon is the modern Baines, with less power. He needs the milestone to get in.

[Cerberus]

A clear "no" to Johnny Damon, although I'm sure someone will come up with a player with comparable or lesser stat's, already admitted to the Hall, and argue that Damon should therefore be admitted.

I'm going to use this thread to vent on a subject that has bothered me for years: It's disappointing (to say the least), that what I consider to be relaxed admission standards, evolving over time, have caused the "Hall of Fame," to morph into the "Hall of the Very Good."

[GrayGhost]

Not a HOFer in my opinion. VERY good player, but thats it.

[bbcard1]

Johnny Damon is a fast Harold Baines. If he get 3000 he's in, if not he's not.

[ullmandds]

With the current state of the game...in the post PED era...with 3000 hits...Damon will be a shoe in!

[D. Bergin]

Not a guy you think of as a HOF'er, but if he gets to 3000, it might be hard to keep him out.

A really solid multi-purpose guy to have in your lineup. Steals bases and gets plenty of Extra-Base Hits for a guy who's not really a power hitter. Also a great team-mate for whoever he's played for.

Unfortunately he's been a liability in the outfield for quite some time.

He has declined quite a bit the last couple years. I might not be a given that he gets to 3000.

[Big Ben]

I think that 3,000 hits is Damon's only ticket to the Hall of Fame.

[thetruthisoutthere]

In my opinion, if you have to "think" whether or not a player belongs in the Hall-Of-Fame then he doesn't.

Johnny Damon has been a very good player, but not a Hall-Of-Famer.

[boysblue]

Never really had a great season, but has had lots of solid-good seasons. At first blush I would say NO, but IF he gets those 3,000 hits then it is likely he will EVENTUALLY get in down the line sometime.

Not sure how many others have 3,000 hits along with 400 steals and 250 HR. Those are pretty fair career numbers. I like Johnny Damon and hope he does get in.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Nearly identical player to Craig Biggio except that Biggio played a more demanding defensive position and was better at it than Damon is as an outfielder. Not quite sure if I would put Biggio in either, less likely for Damon.

[Jay Wolt]

Damon's played long enough and has been healty throughout his entire career so the #'s are falling into place.
During Saturdays game of the week Damon hit a triple and McCarver pointed out that Damon & Babe Ruth are tied at 506 doubles each.
They also said that Damon and just 10 other players in MLB history have over 2500 hits, 200 Home Runs, 100 Triples & 500 Doubles.
But he needs the 3000 hits to be a Hall Of Famer.
Wonder what cap he will represent KC, Oak, Boston, NY, Detroit or Tampa?

[chaddurbin]

avg. career for someone smack in the middle of the steroid era...if he wasn't on anything maybe he should've. kinda similar to tim raines except slower and raines put up his #s in a more defensive era. but if he gets to 3k he'd get in...eventually.

(raines proponent)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill James LOVED Craig Biggio, in fact wrote in his book that he was better than Griffey Jr.

http://www.slate.com/id/2184797

[MVSNYC]

Damon's played long enough and has been healty throughout his entire career so the #'s are falling into place.
During Saturdays game of the week Damon hit a triple and McCarver pointed out that Damon & Babe Ruth are tied at 506 doubles each.
They also said that Damon and just 10 other players in MLB history have over 2500 hits, 200 Home Runs, 100 Triples & 500 Doubles.
But he needs the 3000 hits to be a Hall Of Famer.
Wonder what cap he will represent KC, Oak, Boston, NY, Detroit or Tampa?


Hi Jay!

to tack on to what you mentioned above, McCarver also said during that broadcast, that if HE was tied with Ruth at 506 doubles, he'd do what he could to NOT get any more doubles (either pull up at a single or push for 3), so he could tell his grandkids that he was TIED with Babe Ruth...i thought that was such a ridiculous comment by McCarver. if anything, i'd rather tell my grandkids that i PASSED Babe Ruth in doubles. i laughed outloud when he said that, what a stupid comment.

[Frank A]

I think with 3000 he should be in. Whether he gets in or not he is one hell of a nice guy.

[iwantitiwinit]

Damon is an intriguing player/person. He leaves the Yankees who at the time thought he was virtually done and was asking for too much $. He also loses a boat load of his personal wealth in the 2008 market crash and as a result needs to really sell a team on his ability, which he somehow manages to do. The real question I guess is whether he can get to 3000 or not because if he does in my opinion he's in. I actually saw him play a few nights ago and he still has his legs. After this year I think he will have to play 3 more years to do it because I don't think he gets it in 2. I think he is going to end up with 2905. As a result I don't think he will get in.

[ctownboy]

If Damon played his entire career in Kansas City or started in KC and then went to Pittsburgh, Houston and finished in Seattle, NOBODY would think he was a Hall of Fame player even if he got to 3000 Hits.

However, since he played for BOTH the Red Sox and the Yankees (and was on the 2004 Sox team that finally won a World Series) he will be a shoe-in if he gets 3000 Hits.

ESPN will make sure of that....

[mr2686]

I think it's a little premature to talk about Damon for the HOF. It WILL take him 3 years to get 3000 if healthy, and a lot could happen. My opinion, if he gets it he's probably in, but I'm not sure anyone will want him after this year or maybe next as his productivity is declining.

[Robextend]

I always thought Raines was better than Damon, therefore more HOF worthy...but IMO neither should get in. With that said, if he gets 3k hits it will be tough to keep him out.

[D. Bergin]

If Damon played his entire career in Kansas City or started in KC and then went to Pittsburgh, Houston and finished in Seattle, NOBODY would think he was a Hall of Fame player even if he got to 3000 Hits.

However, since he played for BOTH the Red Sox and the Yankees (and was on the 2004 Sox team that finally won a World Series) he will be a shoe-in if he gets 3000 Hits.

ESPN will make sure of that....


Well, we'll see whether or not Damon gets in and Biggio doesn't to see if that opinion holds up.

As it is, I see no precedent in history that supports that argument.

What other 3000 hit guy (not connected to PED's/Gambling), has been denied entry to the Hall?........assuming Damon gets there, which is not a lock, as already stated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Biggio -- 7 all star teams. Damon -- 2. Damon is the answer, I believe, to an interesting trivia question -- name the only player with 600 hits for three different teams.

[sox1903wschamp]

I don't know about the Hall but he never learned to bunt. For someone with speed, I was appalled that he could not lay down a bunt. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was the 2004 ALCS against NYY. Game 4 or 5, extra innings, situation was ripe for a bunt and he looked like an infant attempting to lay one down. I am amazed sometimes at pro's in this day that never attempt to learn the finer points of the game.

End of rant :)

[packs]

I don't think he's a HOFer at all. He's a compiler like Biggio, Niekro, and Sutton. If he gets to 3000 he'll get in, but not before.

I'd like to see Larry Walker and Bobby Abreu get in before a player like Damon does.

[steve B]

Amazing how the game has changed.

Growing up 3000 hits or as few as 400 HR meant a player was sure to make the HOF. The along came guys like Darryl Evans and Kingman who lasted long enough for 400 but were weak enough elsewhere that they weren't in. And I'm sure a few of the steroid guys won't get in, so that milestone is long gone.

And now we're potentially considering a guy with 3000 hits as borderline.
A lot can happen, but if he makes it I'm sure some will still think he shouldn't be in.

I think that says a lot about how much careers have changed. More players can last longer, or retain a desire to play maybe becasue of bigger salaries. The downside of those same salaries is teams getting rid of players a bit sooner. Why keep Damon if he only produces as well as a much cheaper rookie? A home town deal with KC would be good for both him and the team. He'd get the needed time, and the team would get some needed PR value from the 3000 countdown. he sounds like the sort of guy who'd offer some good intangibles for younger players.

Steve B

[Doug]

I think that 3,000 hits is Damon's only ticket to the Hall of Fame.

If 3000 hits is still considered an automatic qualifier by the time he's eligible I'm guessing he gets in, but it will probably take a few years.

[pclpads]

Hi Jay!

to tack on to what you mentioned above, McCarver also said during that broadcast, that if HE was tied with Ruth at 506 doubles, he'd do what he could to NOT get any more doubles (either pull up at a single or push for 3), so he could tell his grandkids that he was TIED with Babe Ruth...i thought that was such a ridiculous comment by McCarver. if anything, i'd rather tell my grandkids that i PASSED Babe Ruth in doubles. i laughed outloud when he said that, what a stupid comment.

Well, consider the source . . . If Timbo hadn't said it first, odds are his conjoined twin in the booth would have!

[D. Bergin]

A clear "no" to Johnny Damon, although I'm sure someone will come up with a player with comparable or lesser stat's, already admitted to the Hall, and argue that Damon should therefore be admitted.

I'm going to use this thread to vent on a subject that has bothered me for years: It's disappointing (to say the least), that what I consider to be relaxed admission standards, evolving over time, have caused the "Hall of Fame," to morph into the "Hall of the Very Good."


I've yet to see any evidence the standards have been "relaxed".

As a matter of fact, with the larger number of teams today....and a much larger pool of players to choose from, I think the standards have become much tougher.

[ctownboy]

D.Bergin,

If you go to www.fangraphs.com and search Johnny Damon, you will find an article concerning Damon and the Hall of Fame. It was written on July 11, 2011.

The short and sweet of it is, based on WAR, Damon is NOT a Hall of Famer even if he gets to 3000 Hits.

Another article by a different writer points out that Damon hasn't even been the best player on his own teams even when he had a big year.

So, again, if Damon gets into the Hall of Fame it will be because he played for the Red Sox and Yankees whereas other players who had similar or better careers, based on WAR and other stats, don't get in.

David

[canjond]

McCarver is an idiot. Ok, now I feel better.

(This has nothing to do with Damon...sorry)

[D. Bergin]

D.Bergin,

If you go to www.fangraphs.com and search Johnny Damon, you will find an article concerning Damon and the Hall of Fame. It was written on July 11, 2011.

The short and sweet of it is, based on WAR, Damon is NOT a Hall of Famer even if he gets to 3000 Hits.

Another article by a different writer points out that Damon hasn't even been the best player on his own teams even when he had a big year.

So, again, if Damon gets into the Hall of Fame it will be because he played for the Red Sox and Yankees whereas other players who had similar or better careers, based on WAR and other stats, don't get in.

David


When have they ever put guys in the HOF based on "WAR"?

Am I wrong in saying there's probably tons of guys in there already who don't meet the criteria based on "WAR"?

I haven't read the article, but am I also right in saying he doesn't meet the statistical criteria based on "average".....which means there's a bottom half of players in the HOF, to create that average?

All I'm really saying is 3000 hits has always been a magic number for players without additional baggage (gambling/PED's), no matter which teams you played for.

Not saying I would vote for him.......but I wouldn't exactly be outraged.

Hell, I'd put guys who haven't even had a sniff at the HOF, like Lou Whitaker and Alan Trammell in, before I'd put Damon in...........but I hold no ill will towards players who are lucky enough to be enshrined, "borderline" or not.

It's just a number yeah, but those type of milestones do count for something, over-rated or not.

[ctownboy]

D.Bergin,

Whether you like it or not, baseball is moving more towards stats like WAR. So, if Damon plays another three years and gets to 3000 Hits and then has the five year waiting period, WAR is mostly likely going to be even more established than it is now so milestone stats aren't going to count as much as they used to.

Also, as one of the articles pointed out, no matter what team Damon played on, his big year was always outdone by one if not two other players on his team. So his peak years weren't even good enough to make him the best player on his own team let alone a league or the entire Majors.

Finally, in one of the articles, the author was stating his case that, based on WAR, Trammell and Whitaker BOTH have a better HOF case than Damon even if Damon reaches 3000 Hits.

Don't get me wrong, I like Damon as a player but I don't think of him as a Hall of Fame player. Yet, I really feel that he will go in because he played for both the Red Sox and Yankees whereas a statistically similar player probably wouldn't get in if they didn't play for either or both of those teams.

David

[Tabe]

It honestly boggles my mind that there's even a discussion about Damon as a HOF'er. The guy is clearly NOT one. He's a noodle-armed mediocre outfielder who hit under .290 with a bit of pop who stole some bases. Big deal. He's a 2-time All-Star who has never even cracked the top 10 in MVP voting. Has he ever even been the best player on his own team? Was there ever a time where people discussed elite players and Johnny Damon's name came up? The answer to both questions is no.

IMHO, not only is Damon not a HOF'er, he's not even close.

Tabe

[Ladder7]

*YES!




*But, Only in this room;
http://0.tqn.com/d/gonewengland/1/0/B/R/baseballhall3.jpg

[Jay Wolt]

Has he ever even been the best player on his own team?
The criteria for admission to the Hall should be the #'s, not the rankings within a specific team.
There are loads of teammates in the Hall and naturally someone has to be better then someone else.
Billy Williams played in the shadows of Ernie Banks, Don Drysdale to Sandy Koufax, Earle Combs to Babe Ruth (& Gehrig), Maz to Roberto Clemente and so on.

[jbbama]

3,000 hits or he has to buy a ticket like the rest of us to get into the Hall.

[bigtrain]

The Hall of Fame is not a Hall of Immortals and hasn't been for a very long time. We could all name at least 20 members who were only "very good". I think it is interesting that the "milestone" numbers are becoming less important. Quite a few 500 home run guys will not get in. Eventually, 3000 hits will not assure election. What about 300 wins? Is that a greater milestone than 3000 hits?

[ctownboy]

On some of the different baseball sites, I have read that some people believe that guys like Jim Rice, Andre Dawson and Tony Perez are not Hall of Fame players. Having grown up watching those guys play, I think I would rather have them on my team than Johnny Damon.

So, if they are not worthy of the Hall than neither is Damon.

On the other hand, if Damon is HOF worthy, then you have to start looking at enshrining guys like Ron Santo, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Dave Parker and possibly even Al Oliver.

Heck, maybe even Bill Buckner could get in, because, you know, he had a lot of Hits, won a batting title, made an All Star team, finished 10th in MVP voting twice and played for a team that made the World Series (and which he became famous for).

[Robextend]

What about 300 wins? Is that a greater milestone than 3000 hits?

I think with the way the game has evolved, that 300 wins is as much or greater a milestone than 3,000 hits. Does anyone pitching these days even have a legit shot at 300? I think MAYBE CC Sabathia, and he would still need like 6 more years of 20 wins to do so. With the outcome of the game being taken out of the starting pitchers hand, a W isn't an easy thing to come by.

[oldjudge]

Not to hijack the thread, but how many current or prospective HOFers will have 3000 hits, 500 doubles, 250 HRs, 1250 RBIs, 350 stolen bases and a .300 batting average?

Answer-only one .............................

[howard38]

.

[iwantitiwinit]

Jeter will be the guy if his lifetime avg holds up (.313) only needs a few more doubles, sb's and hr's all easily within grasp. Also, AROD very close but with only 304 steals and less than 10 his last 2 seasons he probably won't make it. Mays and Bonds close, Mays short 12 steals, Bonds short 65 hits (plus hopefully he never makes it anyway).

[chaddurbin]

bonds absolutely deserve to get in, 1st ballot.

and what % of bbwaa don't even know what WAR stand for? you guys are giving some of these fossils too much credit.

edit: streaming real/barca live online is pretty awesome

[DixieBaseball]

It is very hard for me to imagine Damon in the HOF, but then again, I read the other day that Adam Dunn continues on his current pace will reach 600 home runs, so when you ask if Damon will get in the HOF, it is hard to see that just like it is hard to see Adam Dunn in the HOF one day, but if he does get to 600 and in that elusive company, it just may happen. (Personally, if either one of these guys reaches the HOF, I think I will quit collecting. The thought of it, just bothers me....I will leave it at that...

[rdixon1208]

3,000 hits is an automatic. But if for some reason he doesn't get there, I don't think he's in.

[iwantitiwinit]

Bonds absolutely deserves to get in? I disagree. Here's how he deserves to get in, allow everything. U want to take horse steroids fine, you want to take HGH fine. Do whatever you want, hit 600 ft home runs, get a 22 inch neck and a size 9 hat, who cares. Outside of that in my opinion he doesn't deserve to get in. The possibility that he would have gotten in without steroids is not germane to the discussion, he chose to take steroids (unknowingly of course) so he is automatically eliminated in my book.

[Chris Counts]

It's funny how Bonds' name comes up in just about any Hall of Fame discussion ... as for Damon, he's not even close. But because the Hall of Fame's voters — many of whom are not students of the game's history — tend to favor longevity over greatness, he just might get in ...

http://minnieminoso.blogspot.com
http://imageevent.com/ccmcnutt

[Kzoo]

He throws like a girl.

This is very true. Imagine if Damon had an arm like Vladimir Guerrero did back in his Montreal days. Yikes! That would have greatly improved his HOF chances. I just can't see him in the Hall with that weak of an arm, regardless of his other stats. HOF's should be all around great players, IMO.

Matt

[Jay Wolt]

HOF's should be all around great players, IMO.

Matt
What about a David Ortiz DH type?

[packs]

Edgar Martinez is a HOFer in my opinion.

[MacDice]

Without a doubt he should be in his high schools hall of fame

[Ladder7]

What about a David Ortiz DH type?

No to Papi (PEDs) and especially Manny.

Back to Damon.

[novakjr]

Edgar is NOT a hall of famer, same for Ortiz...I understand the greatest DH argument, but ANYONE can DH. So you cannot compare a DH's numbers to other DH's, you must compare them to EVERY player at EVERY position to see how they stack up.. I'd rather see Larry Walker in WAY before Edgar...

[D. Bergin]

Edgar is NOT a hall of famer, same for Ortiz...I understand the greatest DH argument, but ANYONE can DH. So you cannot compare a DH's numbers to other DH's, you must compare them to EVERY player at EVERY position to see how they stack up.. I'd rather see Larry Walker in WAY before Edgar...


Unfortunately Larry Walker suffers from another stigma, that may keep several players out of the Hall. "The Colorado Effect".

We've created so many reasons to keep guys out.......5-10 years down the road, all we'll be left with are guys like Damon, Jeter, Biggio and a few others.

Even power hitters who never got connected to PED's, like Jim Thome and Frank Thomas............may have trouble navigating the "well, they must have been on them like everybody else", mentality.

That's why I chuckle when I hear people claim the standards have become relaxed.

[U240robert]

I don't think he gets 3,000 hits, therefore no Hall of fame.
I live in the Tampa area and there's talk he may be replaced/platoon
if so then he won't get 3,000 hits. He's getting old
and there really isn't a market for a guy that hits .260 with 5 home runs
unless he's great on defense and Damon isn't.

Ages ago the Hall of Fame committee's were pushing to get their buddies in. I think the Hall went through a period where a number of 'very good' players got in. I'm a Red Sox fan but I never really thought Doerr was a Hall of Famer, or Joe Gordon for that matter. But it was worse with players from the 20's and 30's as Hornsby was on the committee for awhile.

[Tabe]

Ages ago the Hall of Fame committee's were pushing to get their buddies in. I think the Hall went through a period where a number of 'very good' players got in. I'm a Red Sox fan but I never really thought Doerr was a Hall of Famer, or Joe Gordon for that matter. But it was worse with players from the 20's and 30's as Hornsby was on the committee for awhile.
Not sure about Doerr but Gordon's a HOF'er to me. Short career is the only real knock on him. Bill James makes a terrific case for him belonging.

Tabe

[bcbgcbrcb]

With the super-weak class of first-time eligibles in 2012, I think that Barry Larkin is a shoo-in for next year. My guess is he will be the only one elected amongst players.

[rhettyeakley]

Edgar is NOT a hall of famer, same for Ortiz...I understand the greatest DH argument, but ANYONE can DH. So you cannot compare a DH's numbers to other DH's, you must compare them to EVERY player at EVERY position to see how they stack up.. I'd rather see Larry Walker in WAY before Edgar...

ANYONE can DH? What does that even mean? If ANYONE can do it then why aren't ALL other DH's #'s the same as Edgar's? Silly argment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If Damon should hang around to get 3000, that will be the signal that 3000 is no longer an automatic milestone. The HOF is overstuffed already; if Damon gets in it becomes a joke.

[Orioles1954]

Edgar Martinez was a fan favorite in Seattle, I understand that. He should go in their Hall of Fame. His numbers, even if he was not a DH makes him a charter member of the "Hall of Very Good" along with guys like Baines, Pinson, Santo, etc. etc.

[packs]

I don't understand the anyone can DH argument at all. You are a pure hitter or you are not. I don't think a position like third base, Edgar's original position, carries a premium like say, catcher. I find it far fetched to say that Edgar wouldn't have been as great a hitter as he was if he was playing the field. The only difference in his stats would be that he was a liability in the field.

Edgar Martinez was an incredible hitter and his ability in my opinion puts him in the HOF class. I don't think there is any comparison between him and other "very good players." He was an elite hitter without any qualifiers.

[novakjr]

ANYONE can DH? What does that even mean? If ANYONE can do it then why aren't ALL other DH's #'s the same as Edgar's? Silly argment.

What it meant was that any player at any position can be a DH. 1B, C, RF, LF, SS, 3B, CF and 2B, any of them can DH. The only reason they don't DH is because they CAN play the field.. A DH's numbers HAVE to be compared to EVERYONE in the league(non-pitchers of course).. Basically, there is no such thing as BEST DH, because there is almost always someone at a position who is BETTER. Babe Ruth could've been a DH, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mantle, Ted Williams too. Anyone and every last position player throughout the history of the league is technically a DH who plays the field. I think the designated part confuses everyone. At the core of it, he's just a hitter like everyone else.. Basically, Edgar is the best of the defensively deficient, gimpy and old...

[Orioles1954]

I don't understand the anyone can DH argument at all. You are a pure hitter or you are not. I don't think a position like third base, Edgar's original position, carries a premium like say, catcher. I find it far fetched to say that Edgar wouldn't have been as great a hitter as he was if he was playing the field. The only difference in his stats would be that he was a liability in the field.

Edgar Martinez was an incredible hitter and his ability in my opinion puts him in the HOF class. I don't think there is any comparison between him and other "very good players." He was an elite hitter without any qualifiers.

Let's not kid ourselves. EG was a very good hitter and a perennial Silver Slugger. However, look at his stats and comps. EVEN if he did play a position, EG is on the outside looking it at the HOF in Cooperstown.

[packs]

I disagree. He led the league in hitting twice, doubles twice, OBP three times. He is number 22 on the career OBP list. There are zero people in front of him who are eligible for the HOF that are not already in. For his career he hit 60 points above the league average. His career OPS is 200 points above league average. I consider him an elite player.

[novakjr]

Now, everyone is gonna start with how important he was to those 90's Seattle teams.....Actually, he hurt the team more than he helped. Had he been capable of playing even the remotest bit of defense at his natural position, the team wouldn't have been forced into the rotating crew of Offensively sub-par Third Basemen (Mike Blowers, Russ Davis, David Bell, Jeff Cirillo, Scott Spiezio), and instead could've spent their time and money filling that DH spot with end of their career players who could still contribute something offensively. The way the DH position is most properly used.. Granted Seattle was never very good at finding those type of guys before Edgar. Alvin Davis and Pete O'brien weren't exactly the prototypical DH types..

[novakjr]

Don't get me wrong here...I'd be OK if Edgar got in, but I definitely wouldn't push for it.. I guess, I'm really indifferent on the subject...

[packs]

Why would his playing third base make a difference unless Seattle made it to the World Series? I don't think they even reach the playoffs without Edgar. And I will always remember him for hitting 500 against the Yankees to end Donnie's dream of making it to the Series.

[novakjr]

Why would his playing third base make a difference unless Seattle made it to the World Series? I don't think they even reach the playoffs without Edgar. And I will always remember him for hitting 500 against the Yankees to end Donnie's dream of making it to the Series.

If Edgar plays third so that the team could get a decent end of career DH type, I guarantee that team would've made a few series...They probably would've been better than the Indians in the late 90's..

[Orioles1954]

The lack of real "wear and tear" that Hall of Fame position players are exposed to and that bandbox he called home for the majority of his career also has to be put in consideration. However, to be fair his best season did come at Safeco.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Stats are not everything but the similarity scores on baseball reference.com are always interesting.

For Edgar, not exactly HOF company here.
1.Todd Helton (912)
2.Will Clark (902)
3.John Olerud (885)
4.Moises Alou (879)
5.Bobby Abreu (874)
6.Bernie Williams (860)
7.Bob Johnson (857)
8.Magglio Ordonez (855)
9.Paul O'Neill (852)
10.Ellis Burks (850)

And for Damon:
1.Tim Raines (887)
2.Vada Pinson (880)
3.Steve Finley (861)
4.Willie Davis (858)
5.Roberto Alomar (849) *
6.Jimmy Ryan (849)
7.Jose Cruz (840)
8.Mickey Vernon (839)
9.Al Oliver (837)
10.Kenny Lofton (834)

[tbob]

In my opinion, if you have to "think" whether or not a player belongs in the Hall-Of-Fame then he doesn't.

Johnny Damon has been a very good player, but not a Hall-Of-Famer.


+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

By contrast look at the elite company Biggio keeps. No comparison to Damon, none at all.

1.Robin Yount (836) *
2.Joe Morgan (779) *
3.Paul Molitor (778) *
4.Roberto Alomar (773) *
5.Cal Ripken (761) *
6.Derek Jeter (756)
7.Brooks Robinson (739) *
8.Lou Whitaker (739)
9.George Brett (736) *
10.Ryne Sandberg (723) *

[rhettyeakley]

Actually, he hurt the team more than he helped...

Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

[rhettyeakley]

Stats are not everything but the similarity scores on baseball reference.com are always interesting.

For Edgar, not exactly HOF company here.
1.Todd Helton (912)
2.Will Clark (902)
3.John Olerud (885)
4.Moises Alou (879)
5.Bobby Abreu (874)
6.Bernie Williams (860)
7.Bob Johnson (857)
8.Magglio Ordonez (855)
9.Paul O'Neill (852)
10.Ellis Burks (850)

Actually, I think Helton is a HOFer, and there is a chance that Abreu, Williams and even possibly Clark make the Hall someday.

People are always wanting the HOF to only admit the absolute best of the best but that simply isn't what they do (that has never been the case), nor do I think there is anything wrong with it. Many here would rather the Hall have 20-30 members but it just wouldn't be any fun if that were the case. Accept the HOF for what it is, not what you want it to be.

Thia is also interesting... Edgar Martinez
Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)

Black Ink Batting - 20 (106), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 107 (201), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 132 (104), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 50 (82), Average HOFer ≈ 50

Would Edgar be the best HOFer ever, or even among the elite HOFers? NO
Would he be a "Average" HOFer? Yes, he would.

[SteveMitchell]

If you compare Johnny Damon with Vada Pinson, the similarities are interesting:


DAMON Category PINSON
2700 HITS 2757
1600 RUNS 1366
1100 RBI 1170
500 DOUBLES 485
100 TRIPLES 127
400 STEALS 305
.286 B.A. .286
.434 S.A. .442

Given that Vada Pinson may be one of the best modern era players not in the Hall of Fame and that he played his first 4 years under the shorter 154 game schedule, I think it likely Johnny Damon must make 3,000 hits in order to overcome the Pinson factor (whatever it is).

Both Damon and Pinson would make my Hall of Fame - but so would 100 to 200 others.

[novakjr]

Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

You're welcome. That didn't mean that the team would've been better without him, but rather that the team would've been better with him at 3rd base, than they were with him simply as a DH. I really think once all things are weighed, they pretty much broke even with him not being able to play the field.. Because for every bit better he was than any DH they could've brought in, they were also that much worse at third base with him DHing..

[ElCabron]

Saying Johnny Damon throws like a girl is an insult to girls everywhere, including my 6-year-old daughter who has a much better arm than him. My 2-year-old, however, may not have have a better arm than Damon for another month or two.

But having the worst arm in centerfield history isn't why he's not a HOFer. Then again, he's not done yet. What if he reaches 3,000 hits AND wins one or two more championships?

Comparisons to Biggio or Raines would only be made by people who weren't around when those guys were playing. If Damon's career ends today he's Al Oliver.

-Ryan

[Kenny Cole]

Ryan,

I disagree. Damon isn't as good as Al Oliver was.

[novakjr]

I'd rather see Raines or Lofton in before Damon. And Lofton is a HUGE stretch. It'll never happen.. 3000 will he hard to argue against though..

[Brendan]

Morris has to be in if Blyleven got in.

I've always marveled at the similarities of the numbers of these three pitchers. One of them is in.
Root (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rootch01.shtml)
Haines (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/haineje01.shtml)
Fitzsimmons (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/fitzsfr01.shtml)

[novakjr]

Morris has to be in if Blyleven got in.

I've always marveled at the similarities of the numbers of these three pitchers. One of them is in.
Root (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rootch01.shtml)
Haines (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/haineje01.shtml)
Fitzsimmons (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/fitzsfr01.shtml)

Not Necessarily. Blyleven was way better than Morris.. .59 difference in ERA. Had Blyleven pitched for better teams, he would've easily topped 300 wins, plus his strikeout numbers were incredible. Morris has none of that. The fact that Blyleven fell short of 300 wins is what seems to be confusing people into comparing them, when in fact, there is no comparison..

I'm not trying to diminish Morris. I really do think he belongs in the hall. Just barely. But he was nowhere near as good as Blyleven.

[chaddurbin]

ugh, no morris...ever, please. edgar i can go either way.

lofton...lol.

these hof argument threads...lol x 2.

(larkin...yes trammell=no)

[barrysloate]

I'm still waiting for Al Oliver to get in.

[packs]

I will never understand how Jack Morris is a HOFer. His ERA is 3.90. How can ANYONE with 3.90 career ERA be a HOFer? I understand a lot of people argue his post-season performance should get him in. But even in the post-season his ERA was 3.80.

[D. Bergin]

If Johnny Damon gets to 3000 hits..........he will also reach 1700 Runs Scored.

Like him or not he was a consistent table setter. If his RBI and Runs Scored numbers were switched I doubt there would be any questions of how valuable he was to have in your lineup from a HOF standpoint.

No, "Runs" aren't as romantic as "RBI's" and don't get you sent to as many All-Star games..........but they are just as valuable.

If he gets to 3000 hits and doesn't get in, he would be the first 3000 hit non-PED, non-banned player to get snubbed.

If he gets to 1700 runs and doesn't get in, he would be the first 1700 run non-PED, non-banned player to get snubbed.

This is assuming Biggio also gets in.......who also fits both these categories, and I'm certainly not advocating Damon is better then Biggio..............or even that I would vote for Damon. Just pointing out some interesting stats that even us uncivilized laymen who have no idea how WAR is calculated, can understand.

Longevity and consistency still should count for something, I would think.

[Brendan]

Not Necessarily. Blyleven was way better than Morris.. .59 difference in ERA. Had Blyleven pitched for better teams, he would've easily topped 300 wins, plus his strikeout numbers were incredible. Morris has none of that. The fact that Blyleven fell short of 300 wins is what seems to be confusing people into comparing them, when in fact, there is no comparison..

I'm not trying to diminish Morris. I really do think he belongs in the hall. Just barely. But he was nowhere near as good as Blyleven.

Many people would disagree with your opinion....

Strikeout numbers were incredible? Who cares? I'll take a popout or a groundout and be happy. Same thing with WHIP...these rotisserie leagues are changing how baseball stats are viewed. It may matter who has more strikeouts and a better WHIP for some rotisserie league, but not for the players or the actual game.

[dherm360]

If Damon should hang around to get 3000, that will be the signal that 3000 is no longer an automatic milestone. The HOF is overstuffed already; if Damon gets in it becomes a joke.

this would be similar to Jaime Moyer thinking he can pitch 3 more years and get to 300 (I think he would be 53). No way he is a HOFer

Damon is an above average player not a HOFer