An independent certification body for premium quality within the grade?

[ls7plus]

As many of you know, I have studied the coin field for about the last 20 years, having becoming interested in the common trends going through that hobby and ours. In a 2011 book authored by Q. David Bowers, a highly reputable figure in coins since the 1950's, and likely that field's most proflic author, I came across the fact that in 2007, a new service was launched by John Albanese, also a highly respected figure in coins. That service, the Collectors Acceptance Corporation ("CAC"), independently reviews coins that have already been graded by various third party grading services. If CAC believe a coin has been correctly graded and is of premium quality within that technical grade, it is given a CAC sticker reflecting the latter certification. Apparently, CAC's service has thus far been very well received within the coin marketplace.

Now I know that those members of this board who are already opposed to third party grading services aren't going to care for still another level of grading in this manner, and while I disagree with their position, I would be the last to say they are not absolutely entitled to their opinion. But I was wondering what the rest of you would think about such a service in cards?

And reading about CAC also led me to recall the chapter in Dave Jamieson's 2010 book, "Mint Condition," dealing with Kevin Saucier, a 44-year old corporate risk manager, whom Jamieson characterizes a "arguably the hobby's most eminent and outspoken card doctor." Saucier never alters cards for profit, but is on a crusade to show that significant card alterations can and are making it successfully past the grading companies. Per Jamieson, many collectors believe Saucier is performing an invaluable service for the hobby. What if Saucier was to open a similar service as CAC, but focused not upon the quality aspects of the card, but instead upon determining whether cards that have already been graded have indeed been altered or not? Eventually the marketplace might demand that very high dollar cards pass Saucier's inspection before making it to auction.

What do you guys think about either of the above?

Regards,

Larry

[RobertGT]

...which brings us to one of the more infamous threads on this board:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=129656&highlight=forensics

Don't think those folks met with much success.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The ability to detect alterations to edges is, in my opinion, very limited once a card is inside a slab. I see not much use for this service.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I'm glad to see a post about this topic. First off, it's my understanding that CAC has found that 15% of the coins graded by CU are doctored.

Also I for one can vouch for Kevin Saucier as being a competent detector of alterations in slabs. As for the business side of it, I recall he said that it requires roughly 15 minutes to truly evaluate a card in a slab for every possible alteration. Whether a business can work on those types of constraints remains to be seen.

Global (Mike Baker) also tried this and it didn't seem to take off.

[packs]

Isn't this what PSA's half point system accomplishes?

[jcmtiger]

I don't think so.:eek:

Joe

[barrysloate]

If there really is someone who can detect an altered card with far greater accuracy than the grading services, why not skip the TPG altogether and just send it to him. I don't understand why two people have to look at it. Why not just pick the one most skilled?

[packs]

My apologies. My comment was re: establishing a premium quality within a grade.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If there really is someone who can detect an altered card with far greater accuracy than the grading services, why not skip the TPG altogether and just send it to him. I don't understand why two people have to look at it. Why not just pick the one most skilled?

I totally agree. Then again, if you skipped the TPG and sent the card directly to Kevin, all those brain washed registry guys couldn't compete anymore.

Some people say that TPGs have ruined the hobby. I disagree. The registry ruined he hobby.

[doug.goodman]

That's it!

Finally!

Sanity comes to our hobby!

Grading the graders.

It's such a simple concept.



fade to daydream sequence...

We see a collector opening his mail at the kitchen table in 2043...

He smiles to see that the International Grading All Graders Society (I-GAGS) has certified that certification by the Society Uv Card Kings (SUCK) who had certified the grading certificate by CAC of his PSA graded card.

Now he could rest easy that his Kevin Maas rookie card was in fact a 5.5 on a 10 scale.

end dream sequence.


Apologies for changing the spelling of the word "of" for sake of a witty acronym.

Doug

[FrankWakefield]

Slabbing slabs. It's been smashed around here in at least 2 different threads over the years. I'd rather spend the money on another card rather than a slab or a slabbed slab.

[steve B]

I'm not sure about making calls on a card already in a slab. It can be done, but I'm not certain if it can be done reliably and profitably. The comment posted elsewhere about 15 min/card makes me think the price wouldn't make it practical for most cards.

But

Besides the group doing something with slabbed coins the stamp hobby has a fine tradition of expert certificates, some more reliable than others (Slabbing was tried by PSAs stamp division and has been a failure) And it's typical for some higher value stamps to come accompanied by multiple certificates.

I do think there's room in the grading business for a premium service. Not merely slabbed with a somewhat arbitrary number assigned, but a truly premium service that would slab -Or perhaps not slab, or review while in a slab, and supply a detailed written report. Expensive and time consuming certainly, but for very expensive cards it might be worthwhile. Such a service could also use a registry that allowed multiple companies cards to be entered, lowering the need for crossing over and the risks that brings.

Most other mature hobbies have fairly comprehensive national clubs that provide a number of services - magazine, authentication/grading, group rate insurance and educational. Compared to stamps and coins the card hobby is like herding cats. :)

Steve Birmingham
And just for clarity- I collect both slabbed and unslabbed, but can't see the point of slabbing vg or lower commons from common sets.

[ls7plus]

I'm not sure about making calls on a card already in a slab. It can be done, but I'm not certain if it can be done reliably and profitably. The comment posted elsewhere about 15 min/card makes me think the price wouldn't make it practical for most cards...

I do think there's room in the grading business for a premium service. Not merely slabbed with a somewhat arbitrary number assigned, but a truly
Most other mature hobbies have fairly comprehensive national clubs that provide a number of services - magazine, authentication/grading, group rate insurance and educational. Compared to stamps and coins the card hobby is like herding cats. :)

Steve Birmingham


I don't disagree with you at all, Steve. I just wanted to throw this one out there because I was interested in what the responses would be. I particularly like the "herding cats" analogy. The coin hobby really came to be organized in the late 1850's, giving it about a 130 year head start on cards, and my study of the former has led me to conclude that we have already gone through many of the same trends as coins did, with more to follow. IMO, cards are catching up quite quickly with coins insofar as hobby maturity is concerned.

I do have a persistent feeling that Kevin Saucier, or someone very much like him, is going to have a prominent place in our hobby. Most likely, as you have indicated, that place will be with reference to the higher end cards, as the 15 minute interval for examining a slabbed card for alterations would seem to preclude a volume-type operation, unless he was to train and employ others to perform the same service under his direction.

With regard to David's comment that the registry has ruined the hobby, I would disagree in part and agree in part. The registry competition has raised the prices for high grade commons to absolutely absurd levels that cannot be sustained in the long run, IMO, but then again, I don't collect sets, so that has little impact on my collecting of stars and HOF'ers. On the other hand, those who compete to put together the highest graded sets for registry purposes seem to be much less inclined to buy and hold the cards they acquire for long periods of time, as the dedicated collector, or connosieur is likely to do. Instead, once the registry set guys have achieved their objective, the set is more likely than not put up for auction and broken up into its component parts once again. That means that the available supply of highly graded stars and HOF'ers is higher than it would be if these cards were to disappear into private collections for decades at a time, leading to lower prices than would be the case had they fallen into the clutches of dedicated collectors such as myself, who usually hate to sell a long sought-after card.

Thanks to Dan Markel for his input here--I've often thought that this forum was like an interactive, nearly unlimited hobby magazine, an extremely valuable resource. To me, the contributions from the members are valuable because the more information you have, the better decisions you are likely to make in your own hobby choices, a far more valuable function than to attempt to use it to prove a point (although I've been guilty of that, from time to time).

Thanks to all who contributed,

Larry

[Exhibitman]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/watchmen_comedian.jpg

[drc]

I think this would all be reason to not take grading too seriously in the first place.

[xdrx]

As someone just getting back in to this hobby after a 25+ year hiatus I find the whole grading things as it exists now kind of ridiculous. I can understand authenticating older and more valuable cards, but I can't quite yet get on board with the grading process.

Maybe if I had been along for the ride, so to speak, it would make more sense to me, but I'm feel like a caveman waking up in the modern world and wondering WTF is going on.