My impromptu chat with Joe O.

[Leon]

So this was approximately my 10th-12th National and I have seen Joe Orlando walking around at many of them. He seems very interested in his companies success and is around their booths much of the time. I am quite sure he has known about Net54baseball for years and I am sure he has heard my name on more than a few occasions, but I had never met him. I would be very surprised if he hasn't read the board and wouldn't be surprised if he reads it regularly. I would if I were him. I also helped him and his assistant catch a person that sent me an email while impersonating him. That person admitted it under oath, I am told. At any rate I know many of the issues surrounding PSA and so forth. They are a large company and when you are grading 100k+ cards a month I am sure it's impossible to get every one correct. Also, one of our board members had an issue with PSA and took them to court and won. So, it's not been all roses for Joe and PSA, concerning Net54baseball. That being said I have never had anything against PSA or Joe. I have my preferences for grading companies but hey, It's America.

At this last National I saw Joe walking rather briskly down an aisle so I figured it was a good enough time to meet him. I said, "excuse me Joe, I just want to meet you" and introduced myself. He was very polite and we probably spoke for 10-15 minutes. I truly think he wants what is best for the hobby and runs as good of a ship as can be run, given the circumstances surrounding the human objectivity in grading. I think he would like to help clean up the hobby and can't stand the fraud, deceit and scamming that goes on. In most of these respects he and I feel exactly the same way. I just want to give a shout out to him for taking the time to get to know me and chat with me, when he was obviously on his way going somewhere else. I let him know if I can ever be of help, just let me know. My guess is that would be a reciprocated gesture. Joe seems like a nice guy and a true hobbyist. best regards

[bobbyw8469]

Good post Leon.

[murcerfan]

"dealer grades" for everybody!

YA-FA-FA-HOOOOO!

[TONY-III]

I personally have had several opportunites to work with Joe Orlando and I also find him to be a true hobbyist and an extremely nice person. Joe is very thoughtful about the way he conducts himself and runs his business. He is always open to suggestions and new ideas. He also doesn't run from problems when they are presented to him. I know this first-hand from my years of collecting my own personal items and now from a business standpoint with my new company. From my experience, he is very approachable and will do anything he can to help a fellow collector. His knowledge is extensive and he is more than willing to share it when asked.

As far as PSA authentication/grading goes, I really don't think I would have spent as much money on my personal collection without PSA being in existence. The PSA name, whether you all agree with me or not, gives me as a collector a sense of security when purchasing high-end collectibles. I look at it as a bit of insurance when I'm buying. So, in my humble opinion, PSA (and other legit companies) are just plain good for our hobby. And, if in the end they make a profit (which is, by-the-way why companies are in business to begin with) then good for them - after all, we need more employed people.

I know that all of us on this forum are very passionate about the hobby, and we definitely see our share of not-so-ethical people out there. It's good that we have this venue to share the hobby experience, knowledge of collectibles and spread the word about fraudulent activities, but I personally would like to see more positive statements being posted more often too.

Thanks Leon, for a refreshingly positive post!

[murcerfan]

I think I'm gonna cry.

[murcerfan]

any word on when the 1/4 grade scale will be implemented?

[DixieBaseball]

Leon,

Nice post and I must concur on similar observations as Joe strikes me as a guy who is tireless and works hard for PSA. I must have walked by the PSA booth a dozen times and just about every time I walked by he was engaged in a conversation with a customer (working, sleeves rolled up) and I remember noticing this at open and close, so he strikes me as one of those hands on leaders of his organization. This is only my perception of what I saw, but I must also say that I use PSA as well as SGC and think they both do a pretty good job. I use both companies for different grading ventures and I have generally been pleased over the years with their service.

Cheers - JJ

[murcerfan]

sleeves rolled up?

hmm... sounds like the weeds got pulled, chickens fed, cows milked, and the hay got put up right.

another g** damn hard working american dream.

[murcerfan]

oh yeah,

forgot to ask, what were the perfix cert numbers on the set-up day PSA show grades this year?

[GrayGhost]

OUch. someone has an ax to grind w PSA

[danmckee]

Oh Joe read this board plenty, he even quoted a post of mine when he screamed at me and hung up on me when I tried to collect the legal fees from the law suite. The back of their form stated back then that if you win a judgement from them in court, they will pay your legal fees. NOT, when I called to collect those, good ole Joe screamed at me and hung up on me.

You can have him Leon sorry

I have no respect whatsoever for him

Dan Mckee

[calvindog]

I think I'd have some respect for Joe if he didn't do all that he could to shut down any sort of public criticism of PSA. That doesn't suggest to me that he cares about fixing his company's problems.

[Doug]

I think I'd have some respect for Joe if he didn't do all that he could to shut down any sort of public criticism of PSA. That doesn't suggest to me that he cares about fixing his company's problems.

That sounds like the Mike Brown approach to running a NFL franchise. If he put half the effort into actually fixing the Bengals' issues as he does trying to deflect/suppress legitimate criticism, they might have had more than two winning seasons in the past 20 years... :rolleyes:

[vintagetoppsguy]

I think I'd have some respect for Joe if he didn't do all that he could to shut down any sort of public criticism of PSA.

+1

[T206Collector]

My take-away from Leon's post is that sometimes really nice and caring people do a terrible job running a company.

[Leon]

As I said, I know there are some on this board that have, and have had issues with Joe and/or PSA. Anytime someone is doing well and running a fairly large and successful organization there will be detractors. It would also be nice if some of those criticizing him would be more a part of the solution than the problem. How about starting a good, positive thread sometimes? Oh wait, it's easier to just bitch. I understand things go "poof" sometimes on the CU boards. Well, it's their board and they don't care to take all of the bitching the way I do. To me, no big deal. It's part of the gig. To them, they would rather not hear it sometimes. I can't really say I blame them but it's just not my style.

There are many folks in the hobby who don't like me and have never met me, spoke on the phone with me, and maybe not even emailed with me. It goes with the territory. There is no doubt Joe (and I...and you) will make mistakes as we are human. Overall, I find Joe a very nice and likable guy that is good for the hobby. I feel he is part of the solution. I wish I could say the same for everyone...

And btw, as outspoken as you are Jeff L., I like you and think you are good for the hobby in that no matter what, we know we have you to help point out crap and inconsistencies. At the same time I realize I get no free lunch from you either. Hey, but you could have at least bought me a soda in the cafe when we had a really nice chat at the National? Thanks again for taking time out to sit and talk for a while. It's too rare of an occurence.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And btw, as outspoken as you are Jeff L., I like you and think you are good for the hobby in that no matter what, we know we have you to help point out crap and inconsistencies.

Now you've gone too far!!

[Leon]

Now you've gone too far!!

I know......just shoot me now. :D

[egbeachley]

I've said it before. "Joe is a great advocate for PSA". Any company would like someone like him on board.

[TONY-III]

I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA? From what I've seen Joe and PSA have done more positive things for this hobby than anyone on this forum can say they have, even after deducting every bitch and complaint that seems to flow so easily through everyone's keyboards onto my screen - whether they are legitimate bitches or not - deduct them all and you still get a more positive than negative impact.

[calvindog]

Yes, Bill Mastro.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes, Bill Mastro.

Not Dave Forman?

[blades3]

I've known Joe for more than a decade now and he's always been very honest and extremely passionate about the hobby. He's not scared or shy about pointing it out when he doesn't agree with something, but that's the way it should be. He runs a company that has a massive bullseye on its chest at all times, whether it's grading or authentication, few are ever completely satisfied with the results so it's not his job to be everyone's friend. I've gotten to know quite a few of the key people at PSA through the years and whether its Joe, Roy, Steve, Zach or others, I've been nothing but impressed on each occasion dealing with them.

Steve Bloedow
Collect Auctions

[Leon]

I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA? From what I've seen Joe and PSA have done more positive things for this hobby than anyone on this forum can say they have, even after deducting every bitch and complaint that seems to flow so easily through everyone's keyboards onto my screen - whether they are legitimate bitches or not - deduct them all and you still get a more positive than negative impact.

I think Joe loves the hobby and has done a ton for it. You asked a question so I will give an honest, non sarcastic, personal opinion answer-

Jefferson Burdick

.
.
.
.

[calvindog]

Not Dave Forman?

No, because Bill gave something to the hobby ($$) in that lawsuit and Dave didn't.

[wrapperguy]

If memory serves, didn't Joe have a huge collection, had it graded by his own company and then sold the cards at auction for a huge sum? I believe some of the cards were the highest graded at that time. If I recall, for a short time, PSA was in the business of or was thinking of expanding their business to auction their own cards. As I remember, there was much discussion of the obvious conflict of interest. Does this ring a bell with anyone else? If not, I am losing my mind.

[TONY-III]

Jefferson Burdick - A very fine example indeed.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I love all these threads about meeting the people with past histories that are stained on how nice they are and what a great person they are. What do you expect? them telling you to stick it and move on, heck your just another potential mark. What makes you think they are going to change or treat you different all they want is your money, bottom line and =they don't care how they get it or who gets hurt.

Keep spreading the love until it actually touches you and find there is no love in these people.

Lee

[Tabe]

If memory serves, didn't Joe have a huge collection, had it graded by his own company and then sold the cards at auction for a huge sum? I believe some of the cards were the highest graded at that time. If I recall, for a short time, PSA was in the business of or was thinking of expanding their business to auction their own cards. As I remember, there was much discussion of the obvious conflict of interest. Does this ring a bell with anyone else? If not, I am losing my mind.
I seem to remember hearing stuff like that, yep.

Tabe

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA? ......

Sy Berger and Topps, Mickey Mantle and a myriad of other MLB players for starters.

Also, I know many hobby purists / long-time collectors would also argue that third party grading has done more damage to the hobby than anything else since it has turned this hobby into, well, I guess I'm going to have to use that dreadful word: "industry". And if TPG has done the most damage, who do you put on the top of that list?

[T206Collector]

Has Joe O contributed a lot to the hobby? Sure.

Is he one helluva guy? Seems so.

Does PSA know how to consistently grade pre-war cards? Not on your life.

I dislike PSA for the only reason that matters to me as a collector.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

If memory serves, didn't Joe have a huge collection, had it graded by his own company and then sold the cards at auction for a huge sum? I believe some of the cards were the highest graded at that time. If I recall, for a short time, PSA was in the business of or was thinking of expanding their business to auction their own cards. As I remember, there was much discussion of the obvious conflict of interest. Does this ring a bell with anyone else? If not, I am losing my mind.

I believe you are referring to David Hall the president of Collectors Universe and founder of PSA. He even had his cards in the PSA registry as I recall. And yes, CU did have a sports card auction branch called Superior Auctions.

David Hall is still with CU, mainly in the coin-branch of the company, but now has his own coin company specializing in CU-graded high dollar coins. I believe it's called David Hall Rare Coins. Old habits die hard.

[autograf]

Went to the PSA registry dinner on Friday and David Hall was one of the speakers as was Joe Orlando. It was the registry awards and David Hall was inducted into the PSA Hall of Fame for his previous collection. I also subsequently saw him at Memory Lane buying or selling cards as well. I would think he is also involved in the hobby as he stated he was working on T206's--primarily the tougher backs. At least that was his quote in the registry dinner.

[Leon]

Ok, so I tried to say something good about Joe O, who seems like a good guy. I think this thread is very indicative of what many folks who I frequently speak with say about this board. I sort of cringe when they say it but it's the truth. There is so much negativity it sometimes turns people off. If you are so disgusted with the hobby and that bitter about everything, why not just find another one? I, for one, would rather spread good will towards other collectors and try to see the positive, at least sometimes. It's not like all of our 3000'ish members are going to let bad things be done without pointing them out. And yeah, I get the fact everyone likes a train wreck. I admit I slow down to take a look too. And then there are the few people who would rather post positively on other boards and then come here to post their hatred, venom and vile. That really sucks....Just look up in this thread and you will see all of what I say.

Joe- if you are reading this, keep up the good work.

[barrysloate]

I agree with Leon- too much negativity on this board.

[calvindog]

Leon, I understand your wanting to be happy and your desire for Net 54 to be a happy place but you need to appreciate that just because the guy was nice to you for a few minutes at the National doesn't mean he should be presumed to be a shining light in the hobby. It also doesn't mean that he's a bad guy either. This hobby is filled with controversial people and topics and people will disagree. There were positive things about Joe said on this thread and negative -- exactly what I would expect. What's the problem?

[Leon]

Leon, I understand your wanting to be happy and your desire for Net 54 to be a happy place but you need to appreciate that just because the guy was nice to you for a few minutes at the National doesn't mean he should be presumed to be a shining light in the hobby. It also doesn't mean that he's a bad guy either. This hobby is filled with controversial people and topics and people will disagree. There were positive things about Joe said on this thread and negative -- exactly what I would expect. What's the problem?

Well, one of the posters above seems to post positively other places but just comes here to post negatively, which really bugs me...that and a certain someone seems to get drunk and post hatred, but I actually like him :). Hey, I get it Jeff...I realize that just because he was nice to me for a few minutes doesn't make him a "great" guy :). But we all know a fair amount about PSA, and though they have their issues, I do believe they run a good ship. I do understand what you are saying though. And please understand that I just speak (write) extemporaneously sometimes. Otherwise, how the heck would I have over 5100 posts? I do believe Joe was being very genuine when we spoke and I appreciated that. He admitted a lot of stuff and you can tell he understands his company, and himself aren't perfect. But I think he tries which is more than I can say for many folks on this board. For all of those that bitch it would be great to see them start just one, tiny positive thread about cards!! Oh the joy that would bring.

[kcohen]

I don't know the man and I will take Leon's words on their face. However, actions speak louder than words so I would be more convinced of Mr. Orlando's seriousness regarding fraud in the hobby if PSA changed to a more tamper-proof holder.

[oldjudge]

"I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA?"


Lew Lipset--one of the hobby greats, who no longer gets the recognition he deserves

[calvindog]

I don't know the man and I will take Leon's words on their face. However, actions speak louder than words so I would be more convinced of Mr. Orlando's seriousness regarding fraud in the hobby if PSA changed to a more tamper-proof holder.

I suspect cost is a factor here -- would collectors pay the extra $$ required for such a thing (I would)? I also think holders should have some sort of UV protection to prevent against fading.

[Leon]

I suspect cost is a factor here -- would collectors pay the extra $$ required for such a thing (I would)? I also think holders should have some sort of UV protection to prevent against fading.

One conversation I will always remember and ironically it was with someone in this thread. We were all in a car going somewhere, at the National. I asked the question to the few others, "would you pay $3 more for a better holder to protect your expensive cards?" That person said "no way". I laughed.....I thought it was a stupid question as I thought anyone would pay a few bucks for a better holder, but I guess I was wrong (again).

[campyfan39]

Agree 100%.
Grading sucks

Sy Berger and Topps, Mickey Mantle and a myriad of other MLB players for starters.

Also, I know many hobby purists / long-time collectors would also argue that third party grading has done more damage to the hobby than anything else since it has turned this hobby into, well, I guess I'm going to have to use that dreadful word: "industry". And if TPG has done the most damage, who do you put on the top of that list?

[botn]

I have known Joe a very long time...well before he was working for PSA. Joe does have a great deal of passion for the hobby. I don't think Joe is the problem at PSA and I don't think that he alone can change all that is wrong at PSA. Some of the things collectors and dealers complain about are the same things they have complained about for almost 20 years. And not to derail the thread but SGC is fraught with their own issues so obviously there are inherent problems with third party grading.

[E93]

I have had only positive experiences with Joe. He is passionate about the hobby, and professional in his business dealings. Though the few issues I have brought to him have not always turned out the way I wanted, they have always been handled professionally and I can always see his/PSA's perspective.
JimB

[hangman62]

Leon mentioned something interesting..guys who get drunk..or buzzed..then start writing crazy stuff on the site.... how many have done that..Im sure more then a few

[Leon]

Agree 100%.
Grading sucks

Until you buy a 25k card, like I did, didn't notice a tiny bit of touched up color, and returned the card for a full refund after the graders caught it....then, grading doesn't suck so much.

Unless of course you are the seller...then it might suck. Just some random thoughts that I have experienced....and it was with a Boston Garter...

[tbob]

"I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA?"


Lew Lipset--one of the hobby greats, who no longer gets the recognition he deserves


Lionel Carter and others whose contributions to the hobby are just being appreciated by collectors.

[kcohen]

Leon mentioned something interesting..guys who get drunk..or buzzed..then start writing crazy stuff on the site.... how many have done that..Im sure more then a few

Better doing that in such a state than bidding in the extended time portion on an on-line auction.

[ls7plus]

I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA? From what I've seen Joe and PSA have done more positive things for this hobby than anyone on this forum can say they have, even after deducting every bitch and complaint that seems to flow so easily through everyone's keyboards onto my screen - whether they are legitimate bitches or not - deduct them all and you still get a more positive than negative impact.

+1. Like Leon, I favor the measure of protection companies like PSA and SGC offer. I remember during the early '90's, when grading companies were just getting started in cards after gaining quite a foothold in coins a few years earlier, when there were a lot more raw cards which appeared to be of high grade, out there to be gone through. A little experience with one particular local dealer, that dealer's penchant for altering cards, and PSA's feedback taught me to take along a 16X loupe to check the edges and other elements of a card a lot more closely. Those were the days when you could find and buy a raw NMT-MT '55 Gil Hodges for less than $150, get it graded as an "8," and turn around and sell it for $300 or so, if that was your heart's desire. Now, with a much higher percentage of the cards I'm seeking having been graded, the loupe has been a far less essential piece of equipment for shows. Everyone knows the grading companies aren't perfect, and we know darn well that we aren't either! But make no mistake, they have had made it far more difficult for the would-be scammers to steal your $$$ in this hobby! And yes, Jeff L. also makes an outstanding contribution, adding balance to the equation, with his outspoken nature and insight. The more informed you are, the better decisions you'll usually make, emotions aside.

As always, an interesting debate!

Larry

[ls7plus]

I suspect cost is a factor here -- would collectors pay the extra $$ required for such a thing (I would)? I also think holders should have some sort of UV protection to prevent against fading.

Cost is almost certainly a factor in developing and marketing a tamper-proof holder, as PSA strives to compete effectively in the marketplace, especially of course with its main rival, SGC. I would also very much like to see UV protection offered against fading. Good thought, Jeff.

Best to all who make this forum such an interesting place to go!

Larry

[TONY-III]

I don't know the man and I will take Leon's words on their face. However, actions speak louder than words so I would be more convinced of Mr. Orlando's seriousness regarding fraud in the hobby if PSA changed to a more tamper-proof holder.

I believe that PSA does have a newer, tamper-proof holder. They are now sonically (Not sure if I spelled correctly) welded and appear to be impossible to crack open without destroying the slab and possibly damaging the card. The old cases were easy to crack open just like the current SGC cases are. So, PSA holders have improved recently from my experience. I really like the new holders as they appear to be way more tamper-proof.

[TONY-III]

Ok, so I tried to say something good about Joe O, who seems like a good guy. I think this thread is very indicative of what many folks who I frequently speak with say about this board. I sort of cringe when they say it but it's the truth. There is so much negativity it sometimes turns people off. If you are so disgusted with the hobby and that bitter about everything, why not just find another one? I, for one, would rather spread good will towards other collectors and try to see the positive, at least sometimes. It's not like all of our 3000'ish members are going to let bad things be done without pointing them out. And yeah, I get the fact everyone likes a train wreck. I admit I slow down to take a look too. And then there are the few people who would rather post positively on other boards and then come here to post their hatred, venom and vile. That really sucks....Just look up in this thread and you will see all of what I say.

Joe- if you are reading this, keep up the good work.

I have to admit that when my partners and I were discussing our marketing budget for our new company and we were looking into where to advertise, we all came to the conclusion that we really weren't thrilled about spending any of our advertising dollars on such a negative forum. In the end, we decided that we wouldn't judge this forum by only the negative people who never seem to have anything nice to say about anything, but we reminded ourselves that there are many good people who don't speak up because they don't want to waste their time on negative crap. We watched the forum for some time and quickly realized that if you look past the few, you will see many real collectors with alot of knowledge, who appear to be friendly and want to share and help others. Thanks to all who have a positive impact on this forum! I for one appreciate the information I have gained by being a member.

[glchen]

I believe that PSA does have a newer, tamper-proof holder. They are now sonically (Not sure if I spelled correctly) welded and appear to be impossible to crack open without destroying the slab and possibly damaging the card. The old cases were easy to crack open just like the current SGC cases are. So, PSA holders have improved recently from my experience. I really like the new holders as they appear to be way more tamper-proof.

As much as I like PSA, not sure I agree with this. I've cracked open many a recent PSA slab, and it seems just as easy as the older slabs. SGC is slightly more difficult. Now, Beckett, on the other hand, that's an incredibly tough slab to open up. If any slab is tamper-proof, it's Beckett.

[Mark]

I believe that PSA does have a newer, tamper-proof holder. They are now sonically (Not sure if I spelled correctly) welded and appear to be impossible to crack open without destroying the slab and possibly damaging the card. The old cases were easy to crack open just like the current SGC cases are. So, PSA holders have improved recently from my experience. I really like the new holders as they appear to be way more tamper-proof.

Sorry to hear that. As a long time collector, I still prefer cards in the raw. of course, a lot of my collection is now slabbed because that's how they come nowadays. But when I decide that I really like a card and want to keep it, then I often break it out of the slab and put it on the stack of keepers.

[calvindog]

I have to admit that when my partners and I were discussing our marketing budget for our new company and we were looking into where to advertise, we all came to the conclusion that we really weren't thrilled about spending any of our advertising dollars on such a negative forum. In the end, we decided that we wouldn't judge this forum by only the negative people who never seem to have anything nice to say about anything, but we reminded ourselves that there are many good people who don't speak up because they don't want to waste their time on negative crap. We watched the forum for some time and quickly realized that if you look past the few, you will see many real collectors with alot of knowledge, who appear to be friendly and want to share and help others. Thanks to all who have a positive impact on this forum! I for one appreciate the information I have gained by being a member.

Tony, is this a serious post or are you just being satirical? I'm being earnest I just can't tell for sure. I'm thinking it's satirical and it's the funniest post of the year. Congrats!

[mark evans]

I think I'd have some respect for Joe if he didn't do all that he could to shut down any sort of public criticism of PSA. That doesn't suggest to me that he cares about fixing his company's problems.

I don't know Joe and respect Leon's judgment. But, I think Jeff's point is most telling. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would post on a board that engages in censorship. The price we pay in "negativity" is far outweighed, in my view, by the virtue of free expression.

[freakhappy]

Until you buy a 25k card, like I did, didn't notice a tiny bit of touched up color, and returned the card for a full refund after the graders caught it....then, grading doesn't suck so much.

Unless of course you are the seller...then it might suck. Just some random thoughts that I have experienced....and it was with a Boston Garter...

Well, who's fault is that? You paid 25k for an old piece of cardboard? You know better than that, Leon...don't you? ;)

[alanu]

I'm glad I don't know any of the PSA or SGC people personally. I just send my cards in and hope for the best grades possible. I know what to expect from both companies and usually get great customer service from both.

:)

[ullmandds]

I'm with Alan on this one...I have seen mistakes made by both psa and sgc...exponentially more by psa...but that is likely in part due to their much larger volume.

I recently crossed a card SGC graded A to PSA(my 1st experience with PSA at the national) and my card received a deserved 10...in this case PSA got it right.

My experience with PSA at the national was much more professional and organized than with SGC...who had a pretty small setup with 1 guy helping w/submissions and another in the background.

3rd party graders are what they are...and in this day and age are necessary for the good of the hobby.

I guess ultimately it's like going to another doctor for a second opinion. That's all it is...another "opinion"...just like grading!

And regarding PSA's dubious past behavior on many counts...the biggest fish in the pond tends to take liberties, break the rules, act unconscionably at times...all in the name of the all mighty dollar!

[Orioles1954]

I have nothing against PSA, but after receiving those (3) absolute garbage DeLong's in the mail that we're supposed to PSA 3, I have to wonder who they have grading there. Some blonde who goes to cosmetology school at night?

[Northviewcats]

I've only had two experiences with PSA, both were very positive. The grading seemed to my eye to be very consistent. I also enjoy the PSA Webpage and forums. I appreciate the SMR guide and Population reports. So, even though I've never met Joe, I admire his work.

As to the question of grading my thought is that cards should be graded to protect the card. You will never get perfection when you have a human being judging a card's attributes, but by putting a card in a holder you will preserve its condition (at least most of the time). I know you can preserve cards in plastic without spending the money to have it graded, but occasionally you will take the card out of the sleeve and risk damaging it, or you will damage it by pressing it between a pair of acrylic blocks. It really bothers me when I get a nice card in the mail that I know I will have to flip, and it just doesn't warrant the grading fees. You just know that the card is going to be passed around a couple of more times in a raw condition and soon will drop a grade or two through normal handling.

You can see how 100 years has really done a number on many of our treasures. I wonder what they will look like another hundred years from now if they are left in a naked state?

Just my two cents...

Best regards,

Joe

[freakhappy]

Good posts, Joe and Pete, I couldn't agree more...good points!

It is what it is...human grading! Either jump in or stay away, it's your prerogative.

[MikeGarcia]

Yes , I think I know her ; she's majoring in nail-polish chemistry and I'm sure she's the same grader who keeps returning my 1937 Wide Pens Goudey Premiums Canadian Type 5's as '' 1936 R314 '' ...... And then they try to tell me that three experienced sets of eyes have verified and signed off on every slab that leaves the building........ SGC has graders over age 29 I hope....

[Doug]

Good posts, Joe and Pete, I couldn't agree more...good points!

It is what it is...human grading! Either jump in or stay away, it's your prerogative.

As some great sage of card collecting once said, "Buy the card, not the holder"! :D

[TONY-III]

Tony, is this a serious post or are you just being satirical? I'm being earnest I just can't tell for sure. I'm thinking it's satirical and it's the funniest post of the year. Congrats!

100% serious...Just my point of view. Guess you'll have to take back that "Congrats!", but thanks anyway.

[calvindog]

Still the funniest post of the year.

[Leon]

100% serious...Just my point of view. Guess you'll have to take back that "Congrats!", but thanks anyway.

Hi Tony
I think I got the jest of your message correctly. And I am sure you realize it, but I don't manage this site based on advertising. I manage it based on it being an open forum. My guess is that if you did advertise you wouldn't be happy. Most of your customers probably read the board but I don't protect advertisers or anyone else. The day I do that, especially based on any advertising, is the same day I shouldn't moderate this board anymore. Fortunately the 23 current advertisers and their customers are happy. There were 67 new members that registered last month, almost that many every month since inception, I don't have any open spots for advertising right now and the Indians aren't too restless. I guess something is going right.

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

[mr2686]

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

Down goes Frazier...Down goes Frazier!

[calvindog]

Hi Tony
I think I got the jest of your message correctly. And I am sure you realize it, but I don't manage this site based on advertising. I manage it based on it being an open forum. My guess is that if you did advertise you wouldn't be happy. Most of your customers probably read the board but I don't protect advertisers or anyone else. The day I do that, especially based on any advertising, is the same day I shouldn't moderate this board anymore. Fortunately the 23 current advertisers and their customers are happy. There were 67 new members that registered last month, almost that many every month since inception, I don't have any open spots for advertising right now and the Indians aren't too restless. I guess something is going right.

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

Leon, it was awful watching that arrest at the National and put me in such a crappy mood about the hobby. But somehow I managed to soldier on and despite my negative feelings about fraud in the hobby I still spent 11K on cards in the past ten days. I just want you to know that some of us Negative Nellies still have disposable income. And I read the shit out of those banner ads. I read them so much I think they're burned into my eyeballs. Carry on.

[TONY-III]

Hi Tony
I think I got the jest of your message correctly. And I am sure you realize it, but I don't manage this site based on advertising. I manage it based on it being an open forum. My guess is that if you did advertise you wouldn't be happy. Most of your customers probably read the board but I don't protect advertisers or anyone else. The day I do that, especially based on any advertising, is the same day I shouldn't moderate this board anymore. Fortunately the 23 current advertisers and their customers are happy. There were 67 new members that registered last month, almost that many every month since inception, I don't have any open spots for advertising right now and the Indians aren't too restless. I guess something is going right.

** One other thing. I notice you have been on the board at least 2 yrs yet you have only started 2 threads. Both of them looking for help. On the first one it looks like no response on your 1985 TOPPS McGuire in a PSA 10, but you did get some help with your Mel Ott signed ball thread. Thanks for sharing so much. take care

Oops! Hit submit too soon...

After re-reading what I wrote, I guess I need to clarify:
1) My company does advertise on this site and we are happy:)
2) My point was that if we only went by what we heard about and initially saw on this forum, instead of checking things out ourselves, we may not have made the right decision to advertise here. It was only with an open mind that we realized that, with negativity aside, there is alot of great info/knowledge to be gained and good people too. I just personally wish that there was less negativity and people/company bashing (especially when things are said that are not true) - that's all. Again, my opinion.
3) I don't expect you or anyone else to manage/censor or control this site outside of what the rules state and especially not for your advertisers.
4) Thanks for reminding me that this forum is a give-and-take proposition. I have contributed a few times more than what you stated, but haven't started any threads other than the two you mentioned.

[Leon]

Oops! Hit submit too soon...

After re-reading what I wrote, I guess I need to clarify:
1) My company does advertise on this site and we are happy:)
2) My point was that if we only went by what we heard about and initially saw on this forum, instead of checking things out ourselves, we may not have made the right decision to advertise here. It was only with an open mind that we realized that, with negativity aside, there is alot of great info/knowledge to be gained and good people too. I just personally wish that there was less negativity and people/company bashing (especially when things are said that are not true) - that's all. Again, my opinion.
3) I don't expect you or anyone else to manage/censor or control this site outside of what the rules state and especially not for your advertisers.
4) Thanks for reminding me that this forum is a give-and-take proposition. I have contributed a few times more than what you stated, but haven't started any threads other than the two you mentioned.

Then I take back everything I said..... :) I love ya' man.....Thanks for advertising. Quite honestly I can't keep up with every one of ya'll but did get to meet many at the National. Truth be known I almost have a phobia with remembering names but am damn good remembering at faces :confused:.

I have an overwhelming desire to let folks hang themselves if they want to. That being said there will never be anonymity allowed when arguing with or berating others....

Something tells me we are actually in full agreement on just about everything. I too speak my mind and have put my foot in my mouth on occasion (see last post)......You have contributed but have only started 2 threads....which is actually more than most members probably have. Most folks don't want to get into the fray. Me, I jump in and ask questions later. You would think I would know better.

Jeff- I can't say I was joyous about the arrest at the National but I am of a different opinion. I am glad it happened and I think the guy should have been paraded around the room twice, with trumpeters trumpeting in front of him. I absolutely think that sort of thing can help act as a deterrent. I wish there were no fraud in the hobby but, to me, it's nice to know someone is watching. best regards

[botn]

...

[Leon]

...

LOL....no doubt.....still trying to get my foot out of my mouth.....

[rdixon1208]

Leon mentioned something interesting..guys who get drunk..or buzzed..then start writing crazy stuff on the site.... how many have done that..Im sure more then a few

Why do I feel like everyone's staring at me... :cool:

[vargha]

Interesting thread. My thoughts:

Empty suit.

Thin-skinned.

Weasel.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I first met Joe Orlando at the very first PSA Registry Luncheon approximately 10 years ago. I introduced myself and we had a very nice, cordial face-to-face discussion for approximately 10 minutes – very much like Leon’s experience at the 2011 National. In short, a terrific guy who cares about collectors and the well-being of the hobby!

Sadly, as a few board members know and as Leon alluded to in the first post of this thread, someone attempted to impersonate Mr. Orlando via e-mail several years ago. When this occurred, Leon was accommodating enough to show me the e-mail and I for one knew instantly it was a fake. How did I know? Anyone who has ever read any of Mr. Orlando’s articles or letters to the collecting community know that he always ends the message with, “Never Get Cheated”. This phrase was conspicuously absent from that e-mail therefore rendering it unquestionably bogus.

Once I came to the realization that someone or perhaps several people were impersonating Mr. Orlando, my mind began to race back over the years to all my other Joe Orlando encounters. One that immediately comes to mind was at the 2003 Atlantic City PSA Registry luncheon. Leading up to this event there had been ongoing controversial rumors that PSA was going to go to half-grades and this created a major uproar among many of the registry collectors like me who already owned thousands of PSA-graded cards. Although I was sitting in the far back of the registry luncheon and already had a few drinks, I recall someone getting up in front of the luncheon attendees who identified himself as Joe Orlando and seemed to have a striking resemblance to the person I met two years earlier. Anyway, this person stood up and made the unequivocal announcement, “Read my lips. PSA will never go to half grades!” This should have been the first tip-off that someone was impersonating Joe at public functions since as we all know now, PSA did go to half grades.

This also explains many other “enigmatic” incidences that have occurred since. There had been allegations that Joe ejected a collector from the 2009 registry luncheon in Cleveland for privately expressing his concerns that someone might be successfully getting doctored cards past the PSA graders. I thought this collector was just confused, and perhaps Joe was just exhorting him to leave to get back to the convention to buy more cards, but he seemed to think that this wasn’t the case and had a witness to substantiate that incident. Now it’s clear this alleged misunderstanding must have been with the Joe Orlando impersonator. There have been numerous other confusing things that happened during this time span, such as my banishment from the CU Boards and all of my sets being deleted from the PSA registry, but it wouldn’t be fair to Joe to bring up those types of incidents since I’m now relieved to know it wasn’t him after all.

Kudos to Leon for helping bust up this impersonation ring and putting everything back in its proper perspective.

[vargha]

Lmao!

[calvindog]

Last three posts: GOLD.

[bcornell]

In the end, we decided that we wouldn't judge this forum by only the negative people who never seem to have anything nice to say about anything...

Oh, please. This sounds like another one of those 'teams' consisting of 1 person. And, for the record, I only say positive things about everything, which is why my opinion is worthless.

Bill

[HRBAKER]

Bill,

Someone has to be a ray of sunshine. Good to see you in Chicago.

Jeff

[calvindog]

Oh, please. This sounds like another one of those 'teams' consisting of 1 person. And, for the record, I only say positive things about everything, which is why my opinion is worthless.

Bill

LOL. Yes, the executive decision on where to throw a few hundred dollars a month to advertise usually requires a full quorum before any decision can be made. These are weighty matters.

[Doug]

Leon mentioned something interesting..guys who get drunk..or buzzed..then start writing crazy stuff on the site.... how many have done that..Im sure more then a few

Maybe if I start posting crazy stuff on the postwar side more people would check it out to see what's going on over there... :D

[FrankWakefield]

I think that Leon attempting a brief meeting, Mr. Orlando allowing it, and the way it went, all of that was a good thing to post.

I perceive that graded cards are a problem for the hobby, and we'd all be better off as hobbyists if grading had never appeared. Then some collectors would learn a bit more about what they're collecting. Now, some folks just collect slabs. Slabs were good for the sports card business, but not the hobby. I recognize that I'm in an infinitesimal minority with that perception, but then 'majority rule' doesn't mean 'majority right'. Still, from reading the first post, it seems that Mr. Orlando cares about the hobby, that's good.

As for who did more for the hobby, I think Mr. Burdick tops that list, with Mr. Lipset right up there. So I agree with those two posts that suggested that.

Mr. Carter was a nice, civil, kindhearted gentleman, who knew cards. There have been several collectors like that. Mr. Burdick and Mr. Lipset gathered knowledge and published it for all of us to use... that seems more significant and more important for the hobby.

These guys knew a bit about old ball cards, and they shared their knowledge so that we could better enjoy the hobby...

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/greatwake/signedT206backs.jpg

[hunterdutchess]

Hmmmmm, plastic surgery to look like Joe Orlando so I can get a bump on my graded cards?? I'm in : )

[Matthew H]

I agree with Frank 100%. I bet there are collectors that have never even touched their cards outside the plastic.

I like raw cards, I bust them out. It bothers me when I have to buy that card I want and It's graded a 5. I know I have to pay a premium for that plastic and that premium goes away when I take a butter knife to the side of it.

And yes... Iv'e had a few :cool:

[campyfan39]

I agree with Frank 100% also.
Grading has caused a spike in prices for cards. In the cases they demand higher than "book" prices. And raw/pure cards in great condition are more expensive too out of fear that the buyer might slab them and flip it.

i am sure it has benefits for high rollers and super high end cards like Leon referenced in this thread. However, in my opinion, the hobby would be better off without grading. Later today I plan on freeing a t205 Mattheson from its plastic prison

[Misunderestimated]

I think that for the most part PSA (and SGC and Beckett Grading) are "a necessary evil" and their leaders (like Joe Orlando) are well-intentioned. Joe has always impressed me as interested in the hobby's well-being. He obviously recognizes that the success of PSA is inextricably linked to that of the hobby. He is a good cheerleader (for want of a better word) for the hobby and works hard at it. My understanding is that he was an enthusiastic hobbiest before he came to PSA and that this enthusiasm drives him today.
That said, he works for PSA not the hobby and when the interests of the two are in conflict PSA pays his salary.
Ultimately my experiences are consistent with what Leon wrote at the beginning...

Perhaps PSA (and SGC/BGS) could offer tamper proof holders at a higher price point (presumably they would cost the grading companis more).... Or maybe these holders should simply be used whenever a card is valued over $1000 (or something) since PSA/SGC etc. charge more to grade them anyway.
---
if someone already suggested this I'm sorry for not giving credit I started to skim the thread around page 3....

[theseeker]

Joe Orlando always struck me as a glorified ID braclet, pinky ring, and white shoe wearing used car salesman. His company reflects that image I have off him. In no way good for the hobby, IMHO. And Joe Orlando is in it for himself. Evoking this ceaseless self-promoter in the same breath as the selfless Jefferson Burdick is just plain wrong, again IMHO.

And on this board as with any other, it's not negativity for negitivities sake, it's honest emotion on a hot button topic.

And you want a list of guys that are good for the hobby you can start with this board, where members freely share their knowledge and passion for the hobby. I've benefitted emensely from it. And Leon heads the list.

[glchen]

I have to put my two cents in because I disagree with many of the above comments. I think third party grading isn't a necessary evil of the hobby at all. I think it's made everything much more above board, so instead of having all of these dealers offer these low grade cards that "look good" but have back damage, etc, as Good, Very Good, Excellent, etc, it levels the playing field back towards card buyers. I have no basis for this at all, but my feeling is that old time card collectors don't like TPG. They're used to the old, raw way. The long time hobbyists know cards extremely well and have a tremendous reservoir of knowledge. They don't need TPG because they can easily tell counterfeit cards from real ones, carefully follow the paradigm to collect the card, not the holder, and so forth. They don't need TPG's because the TPG's should hire them as one of their in house experts! However, for newer collectors or casual collectors who aren't nearly as good as these things, TPG's provide a source of comfort so that they know that they're not getting scammed. Old time collectors know how to handle cards without damaging them. Newer collectors are worried that the card they bought instead of a big screen TV will depreciate to 0 value if their toddler gets a hold of it. It's always been a topic on how card collecting may be dying as a hobby because newer collectors aren't as interested in it. However, I firmly believe that TPG's like PSA do bring the newer collectors back into the hobby. They give collectors a comfort that they're not getting scammed or throwing their money away. And for PSA, even though their registry is often held in derision here, it allows more entertainment for some collectors to be able to see and organize all of their cards in the registry and compete with others on it. I've never talked or corresponded with Joe Orlando, but I believe he's trying to promote the interest of the hobby as best as he can. Obviously, he's not perfect, but very few of us are.

[teetwoohsix]

I haven't met Joe so no comment on the type of person he is from me, but as far as his company goes it would be nice if he put a little more oversight in the grading department. Seems to be way too many inconsistancies with the grades of cards.

I understand all TPG's view tons of cards and are bound to make mistakes, but I see a lot more coming from PSA than SGC or BVG. Just my opinion, that's all.

Sincerely, Clayton

[arexcrooke]

I have to put my two cents in because I disagree with many of the above comments. I think third party grading isn't a necessary evil of the hobby at all. I think it's made everything much more above board, so instead of having all of these dealers offer these low grade cards that "look good" but have back damage, etc, as Good, Very Good, Excellent, etc, it levels the playing field back towards card buyers. I have no basis for this at all, but my feeling is that old time card collectors don't like TPG. They're used to the old, raw way. The long time hobbyists know cards extremely well and have a tremendous reservoir of knowledge. They don't need TPG because they can easily tell counterfeit cards from real ones, carefully follow the paradigm to collect the card, not the holder, and so forth. They don't need TPG's because the TPG's should hire them as one of their in house experts! However, for newer collectors or casual collectors who aren't nearly as good as these things, TPG's provide a source of comfort so that they know that they're not getting scammed.
I bolded the part that is such a big positive that grading provides.
And btw, all the things that people are saying here about cards have been said by old time collectors about comics.
The grading companies level the playing field and help to provide a comfort level that allows the less savy and knowledgeable collectors to feel confident that the card they are purchasing is what it is advertised as.
Im new to collecting vintage cards and without SGC and other grading companies I very seriously doubt I would buy a Mickey Mantle or other higher dollar card with my level of hobby knowledge at the moment. It was much the same way when I started collecting comics. As I learned and became much more savvy in the comics hobby I didnt need to rely on CGC nearly as much. One day I believe the same will happen as I learn more about cards. Are there drawbacks to pro graders? Sure, card prices for HG cards have increased (not because dealers are scared to loose money on a flip) but because the market has changed for HG cards. Or low pop cards as well. Why would a dealer let money leave the table just because the dynamic has changed? Not a good business practice. That makes old timers complain. Did it in comics, did it in cards, and I would assume in coins or whatever. But think about the positives:
1-Much more accurate and consistent grading of cards. Protects the buyer from spending NM money on a Mantle that actually grades EX. Let a new collector get burnt once or twice like that and there is a good chance they dont keep collecting
2-Bringing in more collectors to the hobby. That is never a bad thing. The confidence that grading brings to people making purchases is not to be underestimated.
3-Cutting down on altered cards-That card you dropped $500 on? Yeah, sorry, its got color and a trimmed edge. That tobacco card you spent $40. Sorry, its been trimmed. To me that is such a huge positive that it outweighs the negatives. If i buy a card lets say raw, and have it graded and comes back as recolored, i know have recourse. First, I know that it is something that it is not. Then I can go back to the dealer and discuss terms with them. A good dealer will make it right. Without that I either get burned buying it, keeping it in my collection (because i didnt want an altered card) and if Im lucky I get burned again when I go to sell. Because someone else had the hobby experience to recognize what I couldnt.

Some people will say "well dont buy something if you dont know what you are looking for" That really translates into "i got burned when I started and now i know a lot about the hobby, you should have to learn the hard way just like I did" and by the way "got off my damn lawn ya rotten stinkin' kid"

I really enjoy collecting cards and graded cards provides me with the confidence to buy cards I otherwise wouldnt. And if a hobby wants to continue and be relevant, then it needs people coming into the hobby. Grading has done that.

[Misunderestimated]

Just an observation (a bit off topic) - what I find odd about the comic books grading (i.e. slabbing) is that the holders prevent the comics from being read... I realize that's necessary but there is something especially sad about it....

[glchen]

One thing brought up in this thread and others that I find interesting yet debateable is the idea of "freeing a card from its plastic prison." It's another part of the raw vs slabbed debate, yet it's similar to the Toy Story idea where inanimate objects have feelings. I can understand this. There have been more than one instance in the dark of the night where I've been caught talking to my cards as if they're dear friends. And again, it is the owner's prerogative to do whatever he sees fit with his cards, whether it is to put them in an album or a bike spoke or a dart board. I know the feeling of opening a gum pack and touching my cards. You can feel the texture of cards in your hand. It's nice. You can sort and organize how you want. I've handled my pre-war cards also, and it's a different feeling. They are seldom the high grade of modern cards. When you do hold an excellent or near mint pre-war card raw, it's a feeling of awe as you wonder how it could have survived in this condition for so long.

However the phrase "freeing a card from its plastic prison" speaks more of the card's feelings than the owner's. I can see some parts of the argument where I think card owners can believe this. It's an airtight seal in the slab, and the cards cannot breathe. You can easily imagine a live card suffocating inside there. It is an unnatural environment where cards were not meant to be when first issued. Cards were meant to be played with, traded, and enjoyed. Cards may want to be right next to another card, raw to raw, similar to the skin to skin recommendations when caring for newborns.

However, I still don't know if that's what cards really want. It's back to the Toy Story argument where cards are similar to toys, and they want to exist for as long as possible, to be enjoyed their owners as much as possible. And cards may even have a selfish side where they want to exist in their current condition as long as possible. Cards do not want to be thrown away. They don't want to be tossed in the trash accidentally or on purpose. However, if you slab a card, there's much less chance that it will get tossed. Most collectors scoff when a 10 cent card is put into a $5 slab. That is an incredible waste of value, and they are right. However, what do the cards think? Are they proud that they are now in a nice safe slab? If they are in an SGC slab, better to show off their best attributes. If they are in a Beckett slab, this new home is bulletproof! For PSA, they can brag that they're now worth a little more in this slab than the others. I've holdered many a hideous raw card that had no right be slabbed. In a way, I felt like I was saving that card. Now that it was slabbed, it would be appreciated a lot more than when it were raw. It may have writing, holes, horrible creases, but now it had its own shiny slab to show off in. I think it knew it didn't deserve to be there, but it was glad it was. Now there would be more chance people would look at it and enjoy and less than it would be thrown away. For higher grade cards, I think the feeling is the similar. They want to keep their sharp corners, their uncreased surface. They've already survived a hundred odd years like this, and they want another hundred. An inside a slab, they are much more likely to keep their condition.

A card inside a slab can be enjoyed almost as much as a raw one. The only difference being you cannot feel the card. However, it only has two sides, so you can look and enjoy it just as much. I think that slabbing cards and coins would be similar in these respects. However, I do see more of an argument for comics. You can easily say that comics are meant to be read. And that comics want to be read. Inside a slab, you can only see the front and back cover; you can't read it. Therefore, I think there is more of an argument for freeing comics from their slab prison than for cards.

I recently purchased a W519-1 Ruth card with a blue background to go with my maroon and red/pink backgrounds. When the seller sold the card to me, he said he was glad it was going to a good home with my other Ruth's. It was slabbed, but regardless, I think it was happy also to go from one good place where it was appreciated to another, and where it could exchange its own war stories with the other cards.

[sreader3]

Good post Leon. Whenever I have emailed Joe Orlando with a concern about PSA authentication and/or grading, he has responded promptly and cordially. That's not to say that every issue has been resolved to my satisfaction, but at least a considered reply was given.

As for those who complain that Joe Orlando is all about protecting PSA's interests, I don't think that is really a valid criticism. Corporate officers have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of their company and shareholders.

PSA has its problems to be sure. PSA personnel make too many authentication, grading and labeling errors. But the company is hardly the evil empire it is sometimes made out to be, and Joe Orlando is not Darth Vader.

[arexcrooke]

Just an observation (a bit off topic) - what I find odd about the comic books grading (i.e. slabbing) is that the holders prevent the comics from being read... I realize that's necessary but there is something especially sad about it....

Yes, and it is a catch-22. However, as the stories and the art are what drives most collectors there are trades, reprints, etc that allow one to read and enjoy the story and art without having to open the case.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Joe Orlando is not Darth Vader.[/QUOTE]

I can tell he isn't Darth Vader.....because the farce is certainly with him.


I prefer raw cards.......I like the texture and the smell of them.

Oh yeah I abhor that cards are graded with numistmatic terms....cards are not "minted" Comic and stamp graders don't use these terms...why do card graders. I remember the first time hearing the word "mint" in relation to a card and it seem so funny and strange.....why has this misnomer invaded the card grading world and vintage autos and vintage toys? Comic slabs don't use nr mnt and mint..nor do philatelic slabs. Why is restoration accepted with comics and vintage autos and not sportscards? Ah well just thinin out loud. peace, dave

[A2000]

Comic slabs don't use nr mnt and mint..nor do philatelic slabs. Why is restoration accepted with comics and vintage autos and not sportscards? Ah well just thinin out loud. peace, dave

I cannot speak for vintage autos, but CGC comic book grading does use the near-mint, mint, etc descriptors. And restored comic books are heavily stigmatized in the marketplace.

[vargha]

I am not a raw card Luddite. I think TPG has been a huge boon to the hobby. That and the Internet have expanded it exponentially.

I do think Joe Orlando is a lying sack of crap. Hey Joe, I'm still waiting for the full story on WIWAG that you promised once the court action was over. I'm also still waiting for your response to the charge from a former head grader that PSA left two pallets of unsealed slabs in the parking lot at one time because there wasn't sufficient room in the old office at the time.

Bottom-line, Joe Orlando is a self-serving, lying weasel who holds his position because of those "qualities" rather than in spite of them.

[arexcrooke]

Joe Orlando is not Darth Vader.

I can tell he isn't Darth Vader.....because the farce is certainly with him.


I prefer raw cards.......I like the texture and the smell of them.

Oh yeah I abhor that cards are graded with numistmatic terms....cards are not "minted" Comic and stamp graders don't use these terms...why do card graders. I remember the first time hearing the word "mint" in relation to a card and it seem so funny and strange.....why has this misnomer invaded the card grading world and vintage autos and vintage toys? Comic slabs don't use nr mnt and mint..nor do philatelic slabs. Why is restoration accepted with comics and vintage autos and not sportscards? Ah well just thinin out loud. peace, dave[/QUOTE]
Comics do use mint terms:
VF/NM very fine/near mint 9.0
NM- Near mint minus 9.2
NM-Near Mint 9.4
NM+ Near Mint Plus 9.6
NM/MT 9.8
MT 9.9
CGC at one time used both the number and alpha grade on their slabs. It has only been recently that they have stopped. By recently I mean in the last several years.
And inside the hobby, the alpha and numeric are interchangeable.
And depends on the person and age of the book depends on whether restoration is accepted. But that is a whole can of worms lol

[arexcrooke]

I cannot speak for vintage autos, but CGC comic book grading does use the near-mint, mint, etc descriptors. And restored comic books are heavily stigmatized in the marketplace.

Especially books that have amateur work done.

[Cardboard Junkie]

I apologize about the comic grading....my mistake. dave ps I think I better have a few more cold ones then I'll be primed to continue. dave













i thank god i'm an atheist

[arexcrooke]

Not a problem. There was a lot of moaning and complaining with the introduction of the 10 point scale in the community. At one time there was even a 100 point scale. Talk about a book grading different every time someone looked at it. Thankfully after a couple of Sotheby Auctions they retooled it.
SGC grading scale is very similar to CGC and why I think it is a better scale than the one used by PSA.