New T205 Variations PB Doc White

[Pup6913]

Don't need your reasoning just need a vote put forth to gather a majority rule to have it included in the set as a recognized variation. Please Vote Yes or No.

15 days to vote from today before poll closes

The Doc White T205 with a PB back is missing the quotes from the DOC on the back. The most commonly found variation is the quotes around "Doc". The PB is the only back found missing the quotes from around the name Doc and just like the Matty Cycle is found only with one specific back.

I am out on the road to Memphis right now for work so I can't post scans. Maybe Marc can post pics of an example for me or another board member please.

[scottglevy]

A little more info for those (like me) who have no clue? Scans would also be great.

[peterb69]

Oh crap. I was down to 2 cards needed, now I'm back up to 3.

If this was clearly omitted from the Polar Bear back, then I would agree this is a "back variation".

Anyone have a lower condition Doc White with Polar Bear back they would like to sell me?

[novakjr]

I've run into the similar situation with the t206 Owen Wilson having two noticeably different red swirls in the background, and a few weeks back noticed that the variation occurred within the same back... That I'd consider a variation, although most just ignore it.

Normally, If the DOC variations do not occur within the same back, then I'd just consider it the PB version. That being said, there's no reason that the quotes should've been removed for only the PB version, and since the info on the back is as equally important as anything on the front regardless of brand, then to an extent, I can fully understand the thought behind it being a variation, since there is a major change in the card's design, aside from just the branding.

Basically, for someone putting together a PB set, there is no variation. But for anyone putting together a master set based on different card designs(not taking brands into consideration), then I'd say there is a variation..

[marcdelpercio]

Here's a link to the original thread I posted. You can probably guess how I'm voting :)

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=115977&highlight=Polar+Bear+doc+white

[Pup6913]

There is absolutely NO difference between this and the Matty Cycle other than ones a HOF'er and the other isn't. Why would we not recognize this for the set??

[marcdelpercio]

There are only two possible ways that one can catalog a "master set".

You can catalog every possible front/back combo of every card. In this case, this card would be listed separately as "Doc White, Polar Bear". The quote marks are irrelevant.

..or..

You can catalog every different design, regardless of the ad back. In this case this card would still be listed separately as "Doc White, no quotes". The ad back is irrelevant.

Either way, this card (and all other similar variations) would be catalogued separately. Some people apparently have an issue with the term, "variation". Okay...call it whatever you like...but if you are listing a master set, I see no logical argument for how this card could not be listed separately.

[Tcards-Please]

Why would we not recognize this for the set??

Don't need your reasoning just need a vote


Besides your initial post stating "Don't need your reasoning", this was discussed previously in length 2 years ago.

r/
Frank

[Pup6913]

Besides your initial post stating "Don't need your reasoning", this was discussed previously in length 2 years ago.

r/
Frank

WOW Frank!!! Really!! What the beef?????

[Tcards-Please]

Andrew,

No beef, I was just pointing out that you originally said don't need your reasoning, just a vote, then you ask for dialog later. So I'm sure some people took you up on the initial request of just vote. Plus this was talked about in great detail by those with knowledge and interests 2 years ago, so there wasn't much more to add to your thread.

r/
Frank

[Pup6913]

Andrew,

No beef, I was just pointing out that you originally said don't need your reasoning, just a vote, then you ask for dialog later. So I'm sure some people took you up on the initial request of just vote. Plus this was talked about in great detail by those with knowledge and interests 2 years ago, so there wasn't much more to add to your thread.

r/
Frank

It's always good to revisit the talks of the past to see what the hobbies mind is on the subject at hand. So far the vote is in favor of it being a variation. :D

FYI I own one in Very Poor condition so no invested interest here for sure

[peterb69]

I actually only joined this forum less the a year ago and never saw that original thread. Unfortunately, I am now looking for a Polar Bear Doc White to add to my "master" set.

What I don't understand however, if the majority agree that it is a Polar Bear version similar to the Matthewson Cycle version, then why doesn't it get onto major checklists? Beckett, SCD, PSA, SGC.......

[Wite3]

A variation for master set builders of all backs and variations...

It is like calling 1979 O-Pee-Chee a variation of Topps...same company, different advertising with a card stock and logo....Not a variation, just a different subset or set of cards. The Polar Bears are a subset of a T205 master set that includes all the advertising backs.

If you insist on collecting all the backs and calling them variations, then you better add several cards to your wantlist as a variation.

Joshua

--Exhausted after first day of school, so I hope this made sense--

[Pup6913]

A variation for master set builders of all backs and variations...

It is like calling 1979 O-Pee-Chee a variation of Topps...same company, different advertising with a card stock and logo....Not a variation, just a different subset or set of cards. The Polar Bears are a subset of a T205 master set that includes all the advertising backs.

If you insist on collecting all the backs and calling them variations, then you better add several cards to your wantlist as a variation.

Joshua

--Exhausted after first day of school, so I hope this made sense--

A t205 master set is impossible. I can guarantee that for sure. Joshua I am guessing that the Matty Cycle is not a variation either then. It is missing a 1 and only found with cycle backs. The Doc white is only found with PB backs missing quotes. Whats the difference????????????

[Tcards-Please]

That the Hassan backs only feature the Wilhelm "suffered" and not the "suffe_ed". And we know that the "suffered" version isn't found with Piedmont backs. Those examples are identified as variations as I believe the Mathewson and White should be as well.

r/
Frank

[Wite3]

Just my designators...I do not include the Wilhelms as variations but separate cards in separate sets.

Completing a true master set is most likely impossible, but I will tell you that I know a few people who have master sets of certain backs (I own a complete Polar Bear set...as complete as I know of). In fact, I know someone who has tried to put together not only a PB set but a Piedmont and Hassan 30 set and he is very close on a Hassan 649 set as well.

By calling these variations, all you are doing is trying to increase values. The same amount of cards exist. In fact, PB are among the most plentiful of the T205s but just watch the price rise on this card. That Matty Cycle should cost what a Matty costs plus the Cycle qualifier, not some huge arbitrary value based mistakenly on the "rarity" of the card. I do understand that demand will rise for master set builders and Matty collectors but not 10 times the demand!

Just my two cents and my quirks with this set...

Joshua

[marcdelpercio]

The simple fact is that the vast majority of collectors consider design differences to be variations, regardless of the back. There are plentiful examples from many mainstream sets (T206, T212, M116, Diamond Stars) in which individual cards appear only with backs of a certain color, ad, etc. These cards have been recognized for their design variations for as long as they have been checklisted.

The T205 Doc White and Matty variations are no different than the T206 O'Hara and Demmitt St. Louis cards, M116 team variations that appear only with a black or blue print back, Diamond Stars yearly variations with only a blue or green back...and on and on. These cards are ALWAYS valued relative to their design scarcity and demand. Otherwise, the Demmitt and O'Hara T206's would be selling for the same price as all the other Polar Bear 350-only cards with similar (or lower) populations. The market has pretty much dictated how a variation is defined for as long as cards have been collected, and the evidence is clear.