Legendary Auction Corn Flakes Set ??

[NATCARD]

I want the collecting world’s thoughts on this one. A set produced as recently as 1968 and never before seen pops up and has an astonishing estimate. The description is very clear and in depth but lacks one key piece of information as far as I am concerned. These "CARDS" look exactly like the 1968 Sports Illustrated advertising poster with the exact same "Catalog #'s" as the order form for the posters. Sounds pretty coincidental to me.
Here is an an image of the cross section of an SI poster:
http://www.nationalcardinvestors.com/net_54/siposter.jpg


here is a link to the lot description :
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=121406&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=50&category=8&seo=1968-%e2%80%9cChampion-Corn-Flakes%e2%80%9d-%e2%80%93-Tremendous-Collection-of-Uncatalogued-Baseball-Cards-(52-Different)-%e2%80%93-

[brob28]

Nice work Jeff. I'd love to hear what those more knowledgable than I think of this.

[whiteymet]

Saw the same lot and thought the same thing.

And here is the SI poster: http://www.net54baseball.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=912881

I even did a google search for Champion Corn Flakes and could find nothing!!??

Anyone ever heard of Champion Cornflakes?

[e107collector]

After looking at Legendary's lot of cards, they don't appear to be hand cut, and have the same "factory-type" cut on each card. Slightly rounded corners on each

I would like to hear other board members thoughts on this subject.


Tony

[slidekellyslide]

As a cereal box collector I have never heard of that brand of cereal. I did a google search and I see lots of 1968 Football cards attributed to that brand as well. It's also odd..although I suppose not impossible that the reverse sides of these cards is white cardboard which is very unusual for a cereal box.

Show me a single "Champions Corn Flakes" box and I might believe it, until then I'm not buying it...and how did PSA come to slab these football cards??? Where is the provenance to slab these?

I see on the PSA registry that only one guy owns all of the PSA registered "Corn Flakes" football cards??? Even more suspicious...a cereal card that is *that* rare?

[slidekellyslide]

Here's a link where someone is selling the 1968 SI Posters but using cuts from the inserts because they are easier to photograph than the actual poster.

http://www.cardsprograms.com/servlet/the-72/68-Harmon-Killebrew-Sports/Detail

[Griffins]

After looking at Legendary's lot of cards, they don't appear to be hand cut, and have the same "factory-type" cut on each card. Slightly rounded corners on each

I would like to hear other board members thoughts on this subject.


Tony

I'd like to hear Bob Lemke's thoughts on this. The issues legitimacy will determine whether he puts it into the catalog or not.

[NATCARD]

If you read the description on the Legendary web site it states that this issue was discussed with Lemke and he is putting it in the next standard catalog. On another topic as for the FB version of this set, there must be a sample football poster out there similar to the baseball SI order poster. Columbia City Collectibles has quite a few raw FB on Ebay and they are amongst the best when it comes to obscure issues, maybe someone out there knows them and can get a response from them.
Thanks, JEFF W

[fkw]

everything looks like the cards were cut from the poster to me...

The narrow or nonexisting top border, and bottom border cut so close, the Mays shows the same exact ghost image of his name above the caption, the Clemente name is offcenter, etc.

plus like others said the backs dont look like cereal box card stock.

[packs]

n/m

[drc]

I had (and still have) a bunch of 1968 Sports Illustrated posters still sealed in their original cello wrap. Inside some of the cello sealed, rolled up posters was a small checklist/advertising poster-- black and picturing all of the SI posters one could order. I believe the mini ad posters included an order form or oder address or such. I don't have the posters on hand (they're stored elsewhere-- but can get at them tomorrow), but can see if there's still one of the ad posters inside one of them.

I sold some of the insert ad posters individually on eBay, as they were pretty neat in and of themselves.

One thing is the SI ad posters are double sided. Black and picturing posters on both sides. They aren't blank/white on one side.

[jcmtiger]

DRC, cards on both sides, that is the key. But I have never heard of this cereal. But, new issues are always appearing.

Joe

[philliesphan]

If you read the description on the Legendary web site it states that this issue was discussed with Lemke and he is putting it in the next standard catalog.

Yes, that is certainly what Legendary's web site says....

[71buc]

The inserts for the sports illustrated posters were in fact two sided. One side featured the NL players and the reverse displayed the AL players. I seem to recall that the posters were displayed for sale in a large cardboard box. I know the rolled up posters tubes had the item number number printed on an adhesive strip across one end of the tube. Customers could look at the pictures on the display box and then select the corresponding numbered rolled up poster tube from the box. I do recall in the early 70s looking for the Clemente on multiple occasions at a local sporting goods store in Tacoma. I settled for Rose and Yaz. I have no idea why I didn't simply order it from the magazine but I remember the the disappointment clearly.

I too had never heard of Champion Corn flakes. Was it a Post or Kellogg's product? It seems odd to me that either company would use a Sports Illustrated Action image for a card. I can't recall either company producing action cards during that time. A web search for Champion Corn Flakes was of little help. However, it revealed the football set which has been graded by PSA and is listed in their registry. I wonder if the same product numbers and images were also used for the sports illustrated football posters? Perhaps these hand cut cards could have been cut from Sports Illustrated product display boxes? That could explain the card stock and the blank backs. This is merely a hypothesis and certainly not meant to be misconstrued as a statement of fact.

[drc]

I had a bunch of the cello wrapped SI football posters-- same as the baseball tubes but none of them had an ad poster inside. But not all of the baseball tubes had the ad inside-- just most.

If you look down the hole of a cello wrapped SI poster you can tell if it has an ad poster inside. As the ad poster is black, it stands out.

Also, it is correct that the wrapped posters had a serial numbered paper tag/strip across the top. You can also often, but not always, see the player's name on the poster itself.

[sflayank]

i think the question we should be asking here should be directed at psa
where is the proof that there was such a brand as champion corn flakes
what made psa grade and label them as such?

[brob28]

I think the Tommy John & Joel Horlen photos used were also used on some Topps cards. The Topps Super that shows Horlen is shown. Not sure if this helps the discussion.

[Wite3]

Strange,
I have several of the small cuts in my Phillies collection. If I recall the backs were blank but cannot check since they are packed for my move. I think they are Sports Illustrated poster cards myself. Legendary may have taken the word of the consignor about talking to Bob. I would love to hear from Bob on this issue.

Joshua

[bh3443]

Hi Jeff,
Way back in 1981 I had tons of the SI posters in my Framingham store and the display box had a poster with miniature pictures of the posters on the front. It's been decades, but it looks like the "cards" you showed.
When I first read your post, I thought these may be the Nabisco cards, but they don't look like the ones I've had.
Your key is the numbering system for filing the posters. Every poster I had was sealed with an end having a sticker saying the player name/stock number.
It will be interesting to follow this auction to see what happens.
Hoping all is well with you, Jeff. All our best wishes from the Hedin Family to your family and my Mom sends you a big hello!
Your Friend,
Bill Hedin
ps: Mike Mosier from Columbia City is on the net and ebay. I googled it a while ago and it came up under his name/Columbia City and his ebay name was something like "thecityneartheriver" He's always been most helpful.

[Karl Mattson]

DRC, cards on both sides, that is the key. But I have never heard of this cereal. But, new issues are always appearing.

Joe


I've read/heard that Champion Corn Flakes is a non-U.S. brand - perhaps from India? There's an article somewhere on the 'net that discusses efforts by Kellogg's to market their corn flakes in countries like India, but failing to compete with local favorites (Champion being one of them)... I can't imagine, however, that many other countries in the 1960s would have been interested in American baseball or football. FWIW.

[slidekellyslide]

Why would the cereal company use those catalog numbers on the cards? This doesn't make sense...it's obvious these are cut from the SI advertising piece. I've asked some of my veteran cereal box collecting friends and none have heard of this cereal...I also don't buy that it was a foreign brand...why put baseball and football cards on a foreign cereal box?? We need some answers from PSA and Bob Lemke...and perhaps Columbia City Collectibles.

[GoldenAge50s]

Some more info & explaination from Legendary is in order also!

[Karl Mattson]

Why would the cereal company use those catalog numbers on the cards? This doesn't make sense...it's obvious these are cut from the SI advertising piece. I've asked some of my veteran cereal box collecting friends and none have heard of this cereal...I also don't buy that it was a foreign brand...why put baseball and football cards on a foreign cereal box?? We need some answers from PSA and Bob Lemke...and perhaps Columbia City Collectibles.


Oh, I agree it doesn't seem to make sense - I just wanted to offer that Champion Corn Flakes does exist (in India). I just did a quick surf, and apparently it's been around for ages, and the box backs often included premium cut-outs such as masks.

I also noticed that the Champion football cards offered on eBay and elsewhere apparently all have perforations (just 1 or 2 on each edge) - Mike Mossier describes them as "approx 2.1" x 3.2" - issued on boxes of Champion Corn Flakes – perforated card, one "perf" in each corner & middle of each side - as issued." Do the football issues use SI catalog numbers? If so, would the perforations be consistent with SI football advertising pieces?

[slidekellyslide]

So if the story is true then apparently Mohan Meakins (The maker of Champion Corn Flakes) used the SI poster shots along with the SI catalog numbers as cards on their box...which means they probably bootlegged the images without the players or MLB permission. I still want to see a box before I believe any of this though.

[CowboysGuide]

I'm familiar with the football issue of these cards. Not much is really known how they were distributed -inside boxes of Corn Flakes, or part of the box like the Post Cereal cards. The edges have perforation tabs as if they were attached to something. They were promotional items for the SI posters. That's why the #'s match their larger counter parts -the posters. They are a little smaller than a standard-size card and are blank-backed.

[CowboysGuide]

This is a blank front error that to me indicated that the cards preceeded the posters, because there was never an SI Lance Rentzel poster made.

http://www.thecowboysguide.com/misc/1968Rentzel.jpg

[sreader3]

FWIW, I checked the federal trademark database and could not find any evidence of an attempt to register the mark "CHAMPION" in connection with corn flakes, cereal (except one infant cereal) or breakfast.

[CowboysGuide]

FWIW, I checked the federal trademark database and could not find any evidence of an attempt to register the mark "CHAMPION" in connection with corn flakes, cereal (except one infant cereal) or breakfast.

Perhaps "Champion" was used as a description of the players covered in the set(?). "All-Star" could be another term they could have used.

[dallen]

These posts were pointed out to me so I thought it appropriate to comment.
First some background...an old time collector saw our recent sale of the "Champion Corn Flakes" football cards and brought to the attention of a dealer that he had acquired a collection of these baseball subjects decades ago. The dealer contacted us after examining the cards and coming to the conclusion they were in fact original and appeared legitimate. I asked that these be sent in for us to review. Myself and two of my staff examined the cards and came to the same conclusion and discussed the find with Bob Lemke. The collection included the 52 cards offered along with a hand-full of duplicates. The blank-backed cards are on white blank-backed card stock that match the "Champion Corn Flake" football issue. We concluded they were a "Champion Corn Flake" issue based on their similarities to that set. Although one may question this designation they are most definitely not a thin poster stock printed on both sides as the promotional piece produced by Sports Illustrated. I would be happy to answer any additional questions anyone may have.

[dallen]

....at a minimum we will modify our description so bidders know why we used the "Champion Corn Flakes" designation. Before We do that we will see what else comes out of this discussion.

[slidekellyslide]

Okay, now how did the football set acquire the name "Champion Corn Flakes?"

[NATCARD]

It has been very interesting to hear the responses this thread has created. My response is they had glue 40 years ago and no one has come up with a Champion box or the fact any cereal box has a white interior panel. The digging continues.......

[bh3443]

Hi Jeff!
Great thread. It was nice to see Doug Allen chime in, too. Jeff, are you going to the local Net54 meeting in late Aug/early Sept? The guys are shooting for the Paparazzi's off the Mass Pike in Newton/Watertown. It would be AWESOME if you went!
As for this SI card set, it's a neat collectible, but can you call it a card based on the issues posted?
Jeff, I'll email you for my new cell # that kicks in on 8/1. Thank you!
Your friend,
Bill HedinIt has been very interesting to hear the responses this thread has created. My response is they had glue 40 years ago and no one has come up with a Champion box or the fact any cereal box has a white interior panel. The digging continues.......

[paul]

I've got a Tom Seaver from this "set". It has a blank, white back. It is slightly smaller than a regular Topps card and much larger than a Nabisco Team Flakes card. I've always assumed it was cut from an advertising poster that promoted the Sports Illustrated posters.

Also, mine is on stock consistent with a poster. It is not card stock.

[fkw]

Does anyone have an image of the actual display that held the rolled up posters? There might have been a point of sale display poster that was different than the duel sided insert poster.

I remember the posters as a kid but not well enough to remember what the display looked like.

[CowboysGuide]

I've got a Tom Seaver from this "set". It has a blank, white back. It is slightly smaller than a regular Topps card and much larger than a Nabisco Team Flakes card. I've always assumed it was cut from an advertising poster that promoted the Sports Illustrated posters.

Also, mine is on stock consistent with a poster. It is not card stock.

Sounds like yours was cut from a display poster, which I've never seen for the football promos. The 'cards' all should have tabs from whatever they were attached to. Sort of like the 1977 Topps Mexican set.

[Bob Lemke]

I exchanged emails a couple of months ago, and again more recently, with the folks at Legendary about these items. They offered to send examples for my inspection, which I declined since the deadline for the 2012 book had passed.

When first presented with these "cards," I knew the images looked familiar, but couldn't place them. Last week I was contacted by a reader who brought up the SI Posters connection. I shared that information with Legendary.

My current position on including the set in the Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards is that the set will not be listed without some sort of contemporary confirmation of a connection with the purported Champion Corn Flakes, i.e., surviving packaging, 1968-era advertising.

[slidekellyslide]

Good call Bob...now we need to hear from PSA on what kind of provenance led them to slab those football cards.

[sflayank]

hi
its my understanding that psa will grade once a card is listed
so we actually need to hear from beckett what they used to determine authenticity and list in their book

[Rich Klein]

And at this point; that's the best answer I can give on that

Rich

[sflayank]

not in the football big beckett?
then why did psa grade them?

[glchen]

not in the football big beckett?
then why did psa grade them?

FYI, SGC has also slabbed the football ones (and another poster did show an SGC scan).

[dallen]

.....Bob was on vacation so we excluded mention in the catalog of SCD. We then send scans to Bob and offered to send him cards at which time Bob asked us to provide him a complete list and indicated it was a "significant find" but indicated there was no need to send the cards and they would be included in the new SCD. This new posting is a departure from that but an understandable one. We will modify the addendum to reflect his current stance and add any utter information we can find.

[Rich Klein]

Which are not in the Beckett Data Base; the FB cards are ---- I was answering your specific question. Remember; we are not discussing the FB set at this time; but we are discussing the baseball set.

I can not answer any questions about the baseball set!

Rich

[sflayank]

i know what we were discussing' Rich
my question was what did beckett use to authenticate the football cards
no baseball cards are graded so psa wont grade
they graded the football cards based on beckett...so i would like beckett to provide answer as to what authentication they received? a box? an advertisement? or just took someones word for it
if there is authentication for the football the baseball card story would hold more water
if they simply accepted a story...then these cards football or baseball should not carry any weight amongst collectors
i for one am not looking for another zip card disaster
sold for 10k in huggins auction as a rare find originally now theyre selling for $200 as it appears they were printed in the 1980s not the 1950s and dozens of sets have miraculously appeared
no one bothered to authenticate in anyway the zip cards and several collectors got ripped not zipped

[Rich Klein]

I was answering your question about the BB cards nothing more; nothing less.

The BB Cards are not in the OPG; and that's all I know. I do not know the FB card histoy of how they were put into the data base.

Rich

[clamendo]

My friend just told me about this post. Here is what I know.

I have a complete set of Champion Cornflakes FB cards all SGC-graded (minus the Namath). They are in the large Beckett Annual guide. 15+ years ago a football dealer in San Diego who use to specialize in odd football and advertised in the back of the SCD, had some for sale at very steep prices. He probably provided the data to Beckett as "Champion Cornflakes". I helped add to the checklist over the years as I made some futher acqusitions.

Both Mike Moiser and I bought a small group about 6 years ago at a Ft. Washington Show from a local weekend warrior dealer. He had no clue, he bought them as part of a collection of baseball cards. Prior to this purchase we had our doubts, but we both concluded they were the "real deal".

They are all cardboard stock. They all had a consistent "nib" on the borders as if they were connected at some time. There is no way these could have been cut from a poster. I was able to buy another group to upgrade and finish (almost) my set from a person in Philadelphia who told me he had two blank ones with no picture. I quicklyhoned in on these. I asked him to find me a box, but unfortiunately he never did. These may have been prototypes that were never issued. They probably never got per got permission to issue Little or Rentzel.
I don't think SI was in the business of printing poster with no player images on them as there would be a very limited market for these :D
Also, I have an SI ad from a magazine. The players on the checklist do not match 100% the players on the magazine checklist.

Very little is known about this issue, but If I collected baseball I wouldn't hesitate at all in bidding on these. I have never seen them before.

[dallen]

We have decided based on the information provided that everyone is best served if we withdraw this item from the upcoming auction so we can better research the origin of this set. Thanks everyone for your input.

[benchod]

Good call Doug
Seems like a mystery still

[slidekellyslide]

Good move Doug. I'd still like to hear how/why Beckett cataloged the football.

[peterb69]

I grew up in RI, and I did send away for some of the SI posters of some Red Sox players. But I also had 3 of these cards that I had cut out myself.
I know I had the Lou Brock, Juan Marichal, & a 3rd.

I know I had 3 cards that were on cardboard stock and blank backed. I also know I cut these out myself. I also know they were the exact same photos as the SI posters.

I thought they came from a cereal box, but I can not be sure. Unfortunately I believe I sold them to a local dealer in the 80's along with other 1960's Topps cards as a batch however. But I might have kept the Lou Brock. I'll have to see if I still have it.

But facts I remember:
1) Cardboard stock, blanked backed (gray back I believe)
2) I cut them out myself
3) I had 3

And no, I've never eating any cereal from India. But if it was a local test promotion, I would have gotten them in RI.

[Karl Mattson]

I grew up in RI, and I did send away for some of the SI posters of some Red Sox players. But I also had 3 of these cards that I had cut out myself.

The 1969 Nabisco set used a lot of the same pictures as the SI posters, so if your cards didn't have the SI numbers on them, you might be thinking of those...

[Matt]

We have decided based on the information provided that everyone is best served if we withdraw this item from the upcoming auction so we can better research the origin of this set. Thanks everyone for your input.

kudos Doug.

[drc]

Just pulled out the ad posters, and it may be noteworthy that the 9A1 "Catfish Monday" (Catfish Huner? Rick Monday?) and 9A2 "Campy Campernaris" (Bert Campernaris?) are listed as future for sales posters but the players pictures are not shown. Blank spaces are shown for those players. If those players (sic) are in the card set, they didn't come from this poster.

[peterb69]

The 1969 Nabisco set used a lot of the same pictures as the SI posters, so if your cards didn't have the SI numbers on them, you might be thinking of those...

Yes, you are correct. My cards did not have the numbers on them and I only had 3, two I know for a fact had same photo as SI poster. I must have had the Nabisco.

[slidekellyslide]

Just pulled out the ad posters, and it may be noteworthy that the 9A1 "Catfish Monday" (Catfish Huner? Rick Monday?) and 9A2 "Campy Campernaris" (Bert Campernaris?) are listed as future for sales posters but the players pictures are not shown. Blank spaces are shown for those players. If those players (sic) are in the card set, they didn't come from this poster.

Wow...that may explain those blank football "cards" that PSA slabbed. It seems much more evidence is pointing to these being cut from SI ad pieces over some Indian corn flake cereal box.