T206 backs: can someone make a list

[freakhappy]

Can someone make a list of the T206 backs from the most rare to the most common?

I have a pretty good idea, but somewhere in the middle it gets a little fuzzy for me...thanks in advance!

Mike

[E93]

This is a list Jim Rivera posted about a year ago here on Net 54. He is probably the most knowledgeable guy on T206 backs I know.
JimB


Jim Riviera's list

1. Ty Cobb
2. Old Mill brown
3. Lenox brown
4. Broad Leaf 460
5. Uzit
6. Drum
7. Hindu red
8. Lenox black
9. Broad Leaf 350
10. Blank -might want to take this one off the list all together
11. Carolina Brights
12. American Beauty 460
13. Hindu brown
14. American Beauty 350 no frame
15. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back)
16. Cycle 460
17. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42
18. Tolstoi
19. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 25
20. EPDG
21. American Beauty 350 frame
22. Sovereign 350 apple green -350-460 series cards only (66 cards)
23. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42
24. Cycle 350
25. Old Mill south
26. Sovereign 150
27. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 overprint
28. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 42 scroll
29. Old Mill
30. Polar Bear
31. Sovereign 350 series forest green
32. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25
33. Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30
34. Sweet Caporal 150 factory 30
35. Piedmont 150 factory 25
36. Piedmont 350-460 factory 25
37. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 25
38. Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30
39. Piedmont 350 factory 25

[freakhappy]

Thanks E93...exactly what I was looking for!

Mike

[Edwolf1963]

I have used this ..

http://t206guide.com/back_guide.htm

Similar, but some differences. Outdated or just a degree of subjectivity..?

[freakhappy]

Thanks for the website, Ed...you've been a big help in my six months here on the board!


Mike

[tedzan]

Edwolf1963

In my opinion, Jim's list is more accurate. Jim Rivera's list is more up to date than the T206guide.com's list in this specific area.

Jim Rivera's list
---------------

11. Carolina Brights

12. American Beauty 460

13. Hindu brown

14. American Beauty 350 no frame

15. Sovereign 460-(the six super prints are very difficult with this back)

16. Cycle 460

17. Piedmont 350-460 factory 42


T206guide.com's list
--------------------

9 Piedmont 350-460 .... Factory 42, 4th Dist. NC

10 Blank Back N/A

11 Lenox (black) .... (Assorted) Factory 30, 2nd Dist NY

12 Broad Leaf 350 .... Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA

13 Carolina Brights .... (Assorted) Factory 25, 2nd Dist.

14 Sovereign 460 .... Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA

15 Hindu (brown) .... (Assorted) Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY

16 American Beauty 460 .... Factory 42, 4th Dist. NC


Furthermore, I'll add this info based on my experience in completing an all-SOVEREIGN set......

The 46 regular cards in the 460-Only series are tough; but, not as tough as the Six Super Prints (SSP) with the Sovereign 460 back.
These SSP cards (Chance, 2-Chase's, Cobb, Evers, Matty) were Short-Printed and are extremely tough to find. There should be two
separate rankings on the list for these two categories.


TED Z

[freakhappy]

Thanks for your input, Ted. I wasn't aware of the Sovereign super prints...so much to learn about this set, it's rediculous!

Mike

[tedzan]

Mike C

Here are the T206 super-prints....these 6 subjects are found with as many as 24 different T206 backs (considerably
more than most of the other T206 subjects have).


<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/a6superprints.jpg" alt="[linked image]">


TED Z

[npa589]

Due to the fact that I'm trying to put together a Cubs T206 Sovereign set, this isn't good news!

[White Borders]

Due to the fact that I'm trying to put together a Cubs T206 Sovereign set, this isn't good news!

The Chance Yellow Portrait and Evers Chicago Superprints are difficult to find with Sovereign 460 backs. But you should be able to find them with Sovereign 350 backs.

Here's the thread that discusses it:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=124890&highlight=sovereign

Best Regards,
Craig

[Abravefan11]

The following list is the one Jim Rivera and I are currently working from. We have discussed at great length recently moving a few of the backs up or down the list but for now they remain put.

1 - Ty Cobb
2 - Old Mill (Southern Leagues) - Brown*
3 - Lenox - Brown
4 - Broad Leaf 460
5 - Drum 350
6 - Uzit
7 - Hindu - Red
8 - Lenox - Black
***Red Cross Type 1***
9 - Broad Leaf 350
10 - Blank Back*
***Coupon Type 1***
11 - Carolina Brights
12 - Piedmont 350-460 Factory No.42
13 - American Beauty 460
14 - Hindu - Brown
15 - American Beauty 350 (No Frame)
16 - Sovereign 460
17 - Cycle 460
18 - Tolstoi
19 - Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory No.25
20 - El Principe De Gales
21 - American Beauty 350 (Frame)
22 - Sovereign 350 (Apple Green)
23 - Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory No.42
24 - Cycle 350
25 - Old Mill (Southern Leagues) - Black
26 - Sovereign 150
27 - Sweet Caporal 150 Factory No.649 Overprint
28 - Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory No.42 Overprint
29 - Old Mill (Base Ball Subjects)
30 - Polar Bear
31 - Sovereign 350 (Forest Green)
32 - Sweet Caporal 150 Factory No.25
33 - Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory No.30
34 - Sweet Caporal 150 Factory No.30
35 - Piedmont 150 Factory No.25
36 - Piedmont 350-460 Factory No.25
37 - Sweet Caporal 350 Factory No.25
38 - Sweet Caporal 350 Factory No.30
39 - Piedmont 350 Factory No.25

This list is based solely on the overall scarcity of one back in relation to another. No emphasis or additional weight was placed on a particular subject or subset within a back group that is believed or perceived to be more difficult than the rest.

Each collector’s experience will be different and they may find that over a short period of time or with a given subject that their difficulty in acquiring different backs doesn’t exactly match this list.

Ty Cobb Tobacco
This back is controversial to say the least and many collectors do not feel it is a T206 while others believe it is. Compelling arguments have been made for both sides but neither have yet to produce sufficient evidence in our opinion to definitively show it is or isn’t part of the same set. Until that time it will remain on our list as it was originally classified as a T206.

Red Cross & Coupon Type 1
We don’t believe that either of these backs are part of the T206 set and haven’t included them on the current list for that reason. However many collectors do believe they are or possibly could be T206’s so we included them in this post, unnumbered, to show where we believe they would be ranked if included.

Old Mill (SL) – Brown & Blank Back
These two backs were not inserted into packs and both are essentially printers scrap. Some may not consider these necessary for a complete back run.

[freakhappy]

Thanks Tim and everyone else for supplying a lot of great info...keep it coming!

Mike

[AndyG09]

[QUOTE=Abravefan11;912643]The following list is the one Jim Rivera and I are currently working from. We have discussed at great length recently moving a few of the backs up or down the list but for now they remain put.


Tim,

Just curious what you guys may be debating? The work you did on the SC Fact. 25 really opened my eyes to their difficulty. The 150 Subj. especially. Thanks again for putting that together.

Best,

Andy

[Leon]

Hey Tim
Notwithstanding the debate to include blank backs, you have seen less bl350s?

[sreader3]

I think Tim's "working" list is more accurate than the initial list posted on this thread. Piedmont 42 is more difficult than American Beauty 460, Brown Hindu, American Beauty 350 No Frame, Sovereign 460 and Cycle 460 in my experience.

My only quibble with Tim's "working" list is a matter of opinion, not fact. I would strike the Old Mill Brown and Blank backs because I think they are printer's scrap that ATC never intended to issue. I feel the same way about the Old Mill single and double overstrikes.

Scot

[Abravefan11]

Andy - The list as a whole is a good representation of the scarcity of the backs in relation to one another but it's by no means something that can be proven as fact when comparing backs closely positioned on the list. There will be debate and as we've said every collector will have their own experience. The main area we've been discussing moving a few backs up or down is between #12 through #17. A good case can be made for leaving them as they are or moving several around. Each of these backs will go through cyclical periods where more of one than another will come to market so for the time we continue to leave them as they are.

Leon - The blank back and Broad Leaf 350 are two backs that are close in our opinion in scarcity. Though you may see more BL 350's come to market, blank backs are very popular and tend to be tucked away. There are a number of large private collections that when combined number into the hundreds. Again this list is based on our opinion and though they're close we feel the BL 350 is one spot higher on the list. Others may see it differently and that is to be expected.

Scot - I understand your opinion completely and couldn't disagree. We chose to keep the Old Mill (SL)-Brown and blank back on the list due to their great demand but will always reference that they are scrap and not issued in packs.

[Mikehealer]

Are there really more Coupon Type 1's out there than Broad Leaf 350's? I would have thought the opposite.

[Abravefan11]

Hi Mike - First let me say that a couple folks have referred to the list I posted as "Tim's" and I want to make sure it's clear that the list I posted is a collaboration between myself, Jim Rivera, Brian Weisner and another long time tough back collector and T206 researcher.

As far as the Coupon Type 1 and BL 350's it's another debatable point. When we decided to add them to this list we discussed there position at length. Our reasoning for placing the Coupon's lower is due to the number of complete, near complete and sizable partial sets that exist and the lack of known large BL 350 collections. Maybe scattered across the collecting community there are more BL 350's than Coupon Type 1's but based on our information we feel the BL 350 is slightly more difficult. But with any other back comparison someone else may see it differently and that's all good.

[Mikehealer]

Thanks Tim, I just thought there would be more BL's than Coupons mainly because there are more subjects known with BL than Coupon. I thought it was something like a 2 to 1 ratio, but I could be wrong on that, also you need to realize I'm a simpleton.

[White Borders]

I've never really explored the Lenox back, but I'm curious if there's anything that separates the Brown and Black Lenox other than color.

It's my understanding that the Brown was factory cut and inserted in packs, unlike the Brown Old Mills.

I'm thinking the Black Lenox can be found with both 350-460 subjects and with 460-Only subjects, though I may be wrong. But from what I recall, I've only seen mention of Brown Lenox with 350-460 subjects. So is it something like the Apple Green vs Forest Green Sovereign 350s?

Or are they paired with another back but exclusive to others like the BL460/Red Hindu vs AB460/Uzit in the 350-460 series?

Or is there just not enough known Brown Lenox subjects to come up with anything conclusive?

Thanks and Best Regards,
Craig

[Abravefan11]

Hi Craig - You're correct that the 19 confirmed Lenox - Brown subjects were inserted in packs unlike the Old Mill (SL) - Brown. There is a pattern to which subjects are possible but it's not as simple as Sovereign 350 (Forest Green) vs. Sovereign 350 (Apple Green). It goes beyond T206 101 and I would be happy to discuss it with you privately if you would like.


I'm thinking the Black Lenox can be found with both 350-460 subjects and with 460-Only subjects, though I may be wrong. But from what I recall, I've only seen mention of Brown Lenox with 350-460 subjects.

Both black and brown Lenox are confirmed with 350-460 and 460 Only subjects.

[tonyo]

My current t206 set building direction is to have a variety of backs that represent the ratio in which each back actually exists in the known t206 population.

Has anyone ever compiled a list of such ratios, or can that info be extracted from the excellent research that has been done by the back experts on this board?

I made my own attempt by using the info in Scot Readers "Inside t206" and the info in Bill Browns superset spreadsheet.

Not so sure I could recreate my methods exactly, but listed below is what I came up with:

The number shown before the back type is average number of each back needed in a 518 card set in order to represent the correct ratio.

0.0 Lenox (Brown)
0.1 Broad Leaf - Series 460
0.5 Uzit
0.4 Drum - Series 350
0.6 Red Hindu
1.0 Lenox (Black)
1.1 Broad Leaf - Series 350
2.0 Carolina Brights
2.5 American Beauty - Series 460
5.3 Brown Hindu
1.9 American Beauty (no Frame) - Series 350
5.0 Sovereign - Series 460
2.2 Cycle - Series 460
1.3 Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 42
7.1 Tolstoi
2.6 Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 25
6.3 El Principe De Gales
6.8 American Beauty (with Frame) - Series 350
3.1 Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 42
5.7 Cycle - Series 350
19.3 Old Mill (Southern League)
9.3 Sovereign - Series 150
6.9 Sweet Caporal (Overprint) - Series 150 - Factory 649
7.7 Sweet Caporal (Overprint) - Series 350-460 - Factory 42
9.2 Old Mill (Black)
25.8 Polar Bear
20.6 Sovereign - Series 350
7.8 Sweet Caporal - Series 150 - Factory 25
9.5 Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 30
24.5 Sweet Caporal - Series 150 - Factory 30
58.3 Piedmont - Series 150 - Factory 25
25.6 Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 25
13.7 Sweet Caporal - Series 350 - Factory 25
62.8 Sweet Caporal - Series 350 - Factory 30
160.4 Piedmont - Series 350 - Factory 25

[MacrosB]

I have a couple of questions concerning T20 backs. First, is the rarity of backs list the same for the minor leaguers as for the major leagur subjects (leaving out the backs from the list that are not used for minor league cards)?
Second, when I started collecting these in 80 I bought the T206 checklist book by Bill Heitman to use to keep track of my cards. Does anyone know if the back/front combinations listed in theere is still right or have there been any additions added since then? Thank-you for your help.

Jim

[cfc1909]

Heitmans work was ground breaking and is a tremendous asset to this day. We have made huge strides since The Monster came out and we think it is best to say that The Monster is outdated.

The minor league has 86 subjects plus 48 southern subjects. So just by the numbers the minor leaguer shows up less frequent than the major leaguers with tough backs. Even with this information we decided as a team the list is accurate and will be leaving it as it is for now.

Keep in mind that each collectors experience is different.

[MacrosB]

Well if the front/back combinations list in his book is out of date, where is the best place to look to find an updated list? Thank-you,

Jim

[White Borders]

Well if the front/back combinations list in his book is out of date, where is the best place to look to find an updated list? Thank-you,

Jim

A good place to start is: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=132611